Ship of Fools: Could this make a difference?

Thread: Could this make a difference? Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Horseman Bree (# 5290) on :

I am really pleased to see the "I was a Stranger" Challenge issued by the Evangelical Alliance of America. It does indicate an attitude that most Christians of any stripe could agree with, even if details may be arguable.

As Fred Clark says:

quote:
But they may have just enough conservative folks involved here for this to go someplace. Maybe.

Credit where credit is due: Southern Baptist spokesman Richard Land’s support for this matters. This isn’t new for him either — he’s been outspoken in support of immigration reform for quite a while. I disagree with Richard Land about a very, very long list of things, but immigration is not one of them.

Is there a reasonable chance that this challenge will help?

Posted by Mere Nick (# 11827) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
I am really pleased to see the "I was a Stranger" Challenge issued by the Evangelical Alliance of America. It does indicate an attitude that most Christians of any stripe could agree with, even if details may be arguable.

As Fred Clark says:
quote:
But they may have just enough conservative folks involved here for this to go someplace. Maybe.

Credit where credit is due: Southern Baptist spokesman Richard Land’s support for this matters. This isn’t new for him either — he’s been outspoken in support of immigration reform for quite a while. I disagree with Richard Land about a very, very long list of things, but immigration is not one of them.

Is there a reasonable chance that this challenge will help?

Time will tell. I believe the debate could be ended rather quickly by abolishing the income tax and replacing it with a national sales tax, American citizens receive monthly refunds of what the sales tax would have been on the first some amount of money similar to a total of itemized deductions and personal exemption. If one is concerned about a foreigner look on the bright side, he's paying extra.

But we will still need border controls to check for contagious diseases (remember in Godfather II how the first Corleone was quarantined for small pox?), criminality, etc.

It is so obvious that it should go without saying, though, that my beloved Atlanta Braves should have first dibs on any baseball players coming in. Such a decency is not too much to ask.

Posted by Mark Wuntoo (# 5673) on :

I'll wait to see how this thread develops. However, if this statement Our national immigration laws have created a moral, economic and political crisis in America were made in UK, it would be far from true that

quote:
most Christians of any stripe could agree

Wrong starting point, ISTM.

Posted by Horseman Bree (# 5290) on :

The point is that The Republican-Party-at-Prayer (not those wussy Episcopalians or UCC or Methodists) has actually taken an arguably Christian stand against the Tea-Party faction.

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
The point is that The Republican-Party-at-Prayer

Who's that? Don't Tea Partiers pray?

Posted by Horseman Bree (# 5290) on :

There was a time, particularly around the era of FDR, when the Episcopal Church was regarded as The Republican Party at Prayer.

Times have changed.

I was just riffing off that ID to imply that the Evangelical Churches had supplanted what was once the mainstream view. Unfortunately the unholy alliance produced the anti-Christian party that refused to do anything to help the poor, that believed in guns before religion, and that was prepared to drive their own country into default (presumably in a fit of pique over a black man in the White House)

The Tea Party has its own agenda, which seems to have lost the religious overtone, even if individuals still claim to be "Christian" (scare quotes deliberate). There is just about no rational thought in the TP that any outside observer can see.

I was just hopeful that at least a few of the more strident anti-Christian voices in the evangelical movement had become aware of the basis of their religion.

Posted by Ender's Shadow (# 2272) on :

The problem with any form of immigration amnesty is that you are rewarding offenders for their unlawful behaviour. However beyond that is the reality that their 'offence' is not a victimless crime; the existence of a large pool of undocumented low skill people has the effect of depressing the wages of those in the host community who are similarly unskilled; it's a common complaint of the left that the benefits of economic growth are shared around - and immigration, both legal and illegal, is one of the reasons why this is the case.

Now of course the truly innocent here - the children bought in illegally - probably should be legalised. But the offenders who've undermined the prosperity of our poorer citizen? Really?

Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
I am really pleased to see the "I was a Stranger" Challenge issued by the Evangelical Alliance of America. It does indicate an attitude that most Christians of any stripe could agree with, even if details may be arguable...

Is there a reasonable chance that this challenge will help?

I think the first paragraph is why the last is unlikely. It doesn't really challenge the status quo at all-- instead, all it does is affirm the best argument from each side. Doesn't say anything about how you balance the various dichotomies present in the points they're affirming, or even address the more systemic problems (unjust quotas, unreasonable bars to legal immigration, etc) present in the system, much less touch the really hot issues like amnesty.

It's a fine, inoffensive statement-- but not courageous enough to be a game-changer.

[ 18. January 2013, 15:49: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]

Posted by ken (# 2460) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
The problem with any form of immigration amnesty is that you are rewarding offenders for their unlawful behaviour.

As I don;t think governments have a moral right to tell people where they can or can't live, I have no problem with those immoral laws being broken.

Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :

quote:
Originally posted by ken:

quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
The problem with any form of immigration amnesty is that you are rewarding offenders for their unlawful behaviour.
As I don;t think governments have a moral right to tell people where they can or can't live, I have no problem with those immoral laws being broken.

Exactly. And it's silly to have free trade agreements without also having agreements allowing the free movement of people.

Posted by tclune (# 7959) on :

quote:
Originally posted by ken:

quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
The problem with any form of immigration amnesty is that you are rewarding offenders for their unlawful behaviour.
As I don't think governments have a moral right to tell people where they can or can't live, I have no problem with those immoral laws being broken.

I have a bit of a problem with both of these notions. First, the people who have lived here -- legally or otherwise -- for years without otherwise causing problems have a claim to residency that should not be ignored. Having built a life in a place does seem to give you some rights to continue that life.

OTOH, the notion that anybody can live anywhere they like is absurd. If someone chooses to take up residence in a tent on my front lawn, I would like to be able to say, "No." The appropriate vehicle for expressing that is governmental. People have created rules on how they wish to live for a very long time. That is appropriate, too.

Where one draws the line between these two reasonable aspirations is not entirely clear. We are hashing out a new set of rules that reflect the changing realities of a global economy. The notion that there is only one set of "rights" that should be honored strikes me as OTT, but how to balance the competing interests is a matter that will probably take a goodly number of attempts before a new concensus finally emerges.

--Tom Clune

[ 18. January 2013, 18:49: Message edited by: tclune ]

Posted by Ender's Shadow (# 2272) on :

Given the desperate measure and expenditure that some people resort to to get to the UK, there can be no doubt that if immigration restrictions didn't exist, the incomers would be measured in the millions. THAT'S NOT SUSTAINABLE, ecologically, economically, sociologically or in terms of the added costs to the government. So talk of 'right to freedom of movement' is one of those irrational ideas which undermine the cause of human rights by bringing it into ridicule.

Posted by George Spigot (# 253) on :

quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
Having built a life in a place does seem to give you some rights to continue that life.

Sounds wondeful. Someone tell the Palestinians the good news.

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

quote:
Originally posted by George Spigot:

quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
Having built a life in a place does seem to give you some rights to continue that life.
Sounds wondeful. Someone tell the Palestinians the good news.

**Off to erect a yurt in tclune's back yard and settle in**

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