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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Humour and Christianity
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
I’ve just finished a book by one of D.L. Moody’s protégés, Reuben Torrey, and what a grim and miserable read it was!
This surprised me a bit, because Moody himself was quite a personable character, and another of his protégés, the evangelist Charles Alexander, who died in 1920 (some older evangelicals will remember the collection Alexander’s Hymns) was the first instance of whom I am aware to deliberately use humour in his preaching.
These days we tend to take humour from the pulpit or platform for granted, but prior to Alexander it is difficult to think of any preacher or theologian who even approved of it, let alone employed it.
Thinking back over church history prior to the twentieth century, I can only come up with two jokes off the top of my head.
The first is Tertullian’s "If the Tiber rises so high it floods the walls, or the Nile so low it doesn't flood the fields, if the earth opens, or the heavens don't, if there is famine, if there is plague, instantly the howl goes up, "The Christians to the lion!" What, all of them to a single lion?"
The second is Calvin’s reference (Institutes III. IV. 7) to a mediaeval joke that the 1215 Fourth Lateran Council’s requirement that “everyone of both sexes” had to confess annually applied only to hermaphrodites.
Can anyone think of other examples?
And why did humour in preaching unprecedentedly become ubiquitous, and ubiquitously approved of, in the twentieth century (in the West, at least)?
[ 24. January 2013, 03:02: Message edited by: Kaplan Corday ]
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
Have a look at Luther's Ninety Five theses.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
Have a look at Luther's Ninety Five theses.
I have read them in the past, and I've just had another look to check whether I missed something.
Couldn't find much in them to raise a smile, but perhaps you had to be there....
Reference to the papacy, however, made me think of Julius [II] Excluded From Heaven, almost certainly written by Erasmus, which is very funny.
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
Thesis 51:
quote:
Christians are to be taught that it would be the pope's wish, as it is his duty, to give of his own money to very many of those from whom certain hawkers of pardons cajole money, even though the church of St. Peter might have to be sold.
Clearly that's just what Popes Julius II and Leo X wished to do.
Similarly, see the sequence from thesis 81 to thesis 91.
Swift and Sterne are both great comic writers.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
The funniest thing I ever read about Luther was an A Level essay, which talked about him nailing his 95 testes to the church door!
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
I was thinking about this very issue driving in this morning. I have a sense of humour – some may disagree – but given that probably all humour is based on divisiveness and cruelty or humiliation of others, and also given that we are created in the image of God, how do these all reconcile?
Does God have a sense of humour? If so, how does He deal with the issues of divisiveness?
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
Is all humour really based on divisiveness and cruelty or humiliation of others? I agree some of it can be, but surely not all. And you can choose not to listen to the nasty stuff.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
Does God have a sense of humour?
If not, He needs to work on His QA procedures...
--Tom Clune
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This space left blank intentionally.
Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
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moron
Shipmate
# 206
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
And why did humour in preaching unprecedentedly become ubiquitous, and ubiquitously approved of, in the twentieth century (in the West, at least)?
Chesterton. <nodding head emoticon>
Seriousness is not a virtue.
Posts: 4236 | From: Bentonville | Registered: May 2001
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Hawk
Semi-social raptor
# 14289
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
given that probably all humour is based on divisiveness and cruelty or humiliation of others
That's a big given ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
I would say humour can also be based on differences, things that startle or surprise, pointing out someone's (including ourselves) misconceptions, about themselves or others. Or just word play, enjoying that one word that may be quite serious sounds like another that's not. Changing contexts to make serious things less serious, (the caption competition for instance). Perhaps just general silliness for silliness' sake (i.e Mornington Cresent), enjoying that things don't make sense.
None of which is harmful to others, or based on putting others down, or supporting divisiveness. Good comedy can break down barriers in fact.
Like all things, comedy can be both hurtful or edifying depending on use.
[ 24. January 2013, 13:21: Message edited by: Hawk ]
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“We are to find God in what we know, not in what we don't know." Dietrich Bonhoeffer
See my blog for 'interesting' thoughts
Posts: 1739 | From: Oxford, UK | Registered: Nov 2008
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
The funniest thing I ever read about Luther was an A Level essay, which talked about him nailing his 95 testes to the church door!
That explains the depression...
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
I was thinking about this very issue driving in this morning. I have a sense of humour – some may disagree – but given that probably all humour is based on divisiveness and cruelty or humiliation of others, and also given that we are created in the image of God, how do these all reconcile?
Re being made in the image of God:
Nipples on men?
Genitourinary anatomy which combines the amusement park with waste treatment?
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
Is all humour really based on divisiveness and cruelty or humiliation of others?
If that is the case, then neither wordplay nor self-deprecating humor is funny. But they are (or can be) funny. Therefore the claim is not true.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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HCH
Shipmate
# 14313
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Posted
I have heard of two theories of humor. One claims that humor is based on sadism and the other says that humor is based on surprise. Almost anything Jerry Seinfeld has ever done is an example of the first; shaggy dog stories are examples of the second.
I think many people have a definite preference one way or the other.
Posts: 1540 | From: Illinois, USA | Registered: Nov 2008
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kankucho
Shipmate
# 14318
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
Re being made in the image of God:
Nipples on men?
Genitourinary anatomy which combines the amusement park with waste treatment?
Navels? ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
(Can we talk here? I got banned for blasphemy from one Christian web community for playfully asking the Admin if he thought the God who made us in his image had a willy)
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"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself" – Dr. Carl Sagan
Kankucho Bird Blues
Posts: 1262 | From: Kuon-ganjo, E17 | Registered: Nov 2008
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
Absurdist humour, bad puns and general word play seem to me pretty frequent in Jesus' teaching. It's hard to imagine that Jesus delivered the message about logs and motes without at least a good humoured smile, for example.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
The funniest thing I ever read about Luther was an A Level essay, which talked about him nailing his 95 testes to the church door!
I've also heard of references to his Ninety-Five Faeces.
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by kankucho:
Navels?
Philip Gosse, Edmund's father, wrote an anti-Darwinian book called Omphalos, Greek for navel, which dealt, inter alia, with the issue of whether Adam had a navel.
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PaulBC
Shipmate
# 13712
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Posted
Arise solemity and seriousness and an absence of humor . OH Blast what a dull woorld would that make . Let's jest, joke have a billion puns, as I read scripture there is nothing wrong with a laugh noe & then. ![[Smile]](smile.gif) ![[Angel]](graemlins/angel.gif) ![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
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"He has told you O mortal,what is good;and what does the Lord require of youbut to do justice and to love kindness ,and to walk humbly with your God."Micah 6:8
Posts: 873 | From: Victoria B.C. Canada | Registered: May 2008
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by kankucho:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
Re being made in the image of God:
Nipples on men?
Genitourinary anatomy which combines the amusement park with waste treatment?
Navels?
(Can we talk here? I got banned for blasphemy from one Christian web community for playfully asking the Admin if he thought the God who made us in his image had a willy)
I can see the problem. God has a peter, not a willy. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Russ
Old salt
# 120
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Posted
It was a few months ago now that the curate, misreading his notes, promised us all immorality in heaven...
I found myself pulled in different directions by conflicting emotions - part appreciation of the humour of the mistake, part sympathy for him, part not wanting this trivial error to detract from the solemnity proper to worship.
Humour helps us to stop taking ourselves too seriously. But to worship anyone or anything is to take that thing or person with utter seriousness.
Best wishes,
Russ
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Wish everyone well; the enemy is not people, the enemy is wrong ideas
Posts: 3169 | From: rural Ireland | Registered: May 2001
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
Is all humour really based on divisiveness and cruelty or humiliation of others?
If that is the case, then neither wordplay nor self-deprecating humor is funny. But they are (or can be) funny. Therefore the claim is not true.
Well, wordplay depends on the context, but at the very least we can point to a division between the cleverness of the person playing with the words and those who “get” the joke, and those who are not clever enough to think of it or “get” it. It is a way of dividing clever people from no-so-clever people.
And self-deprecating humour is most definitely divisive as it divides “me” from the rest of the world. Or more accurately it divides “me and those who are like me” from the rest of the world. I don’t like driving, that’s why I drive a Honda! It divides me and other Honda drivers from those who like driving. But it is ironic though as I do like driving even though I drive a Honda. Self-deprecating humour is divisive.
So I stand by my statement that humour is based on division. You haven’t disproved it yet.
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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Hawk
Semi-social raptor
# 14289
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
Well, wordplay depends on the context, but at the very least we can point to a division between the cleverness of the person playing with the words and those who “get” the joke, and those who are not clever enough to think of it or “get” it. It is a way of dividing clever people from no-so-clever people.
And self-deprecating humour is most definitely divisive as it divides “me” from the rest of the world. Or more accurately it divides “me and those who are like me” from the rest of the world. I don’t like driving, that’s why I drive a Honda! It divides me and other Honda drivers from those who like driving. But it is ironic though as I do like driving even though I drive a Honda. Self-deprecating humour is divisive.
So I stand by my statement that humour is based on division. You haven’t disproved it yet.
Brilliant use of absurdist humour. Well done.
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“We are to find God in what we know, not in what we don't know." Dietrich Bonhoeffer
See my blog for 'interesting' thoughts
Posts: 1739 | From: Oxford, UK | Registered: Nov 2008
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kankucho
Shipmate
# 14318
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by kankucho:
Navels?
Philip Gosse, Edmund's father, wrote an anti-Darwinian book called Omphalos, Greek for navel, which dealt, inter alia, with the issue of whether Adam had a navel.
My point (of humorous observation) though was whether God might have one.
Dara O'Briain also wonders why a perfect creator God should have put our cheeks so perilously close to our powerful flesh-gringing molars.
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"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself" – Dr. Carl Sagan
Kankucho Bird Blues
Posts: 1262 | From: Kuon-ganjo, E17 | Registered: Nov 2008
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jugular
Voice of Treason
# 4174
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Posted
I am a priest and a working stand-up comedian. I am not the only one - I know of at least one other in Australia, and probably others around the world. I work with another comedian who is a lay minister, and we have developed Pirate Church. We are embarking on a national tour in April.
However, my liturgical persona is pretty straight. Occasionally I make a funny in a sermon. But I don't do punchline gags, I don't 'tell jokes', and I don't tend to set out to make people laugh. The only sort of humour I use in sermons is observational or to soften a critique.
I detest sermons which use jokes (punchline style gags) as an icebreaker. It basically signals to the listeners that the sermon is flimsy, and cheap tricks are needed to gain or sustain interest. In comedy, there is such a thing as a cheap laugh. Gags that get a quick, light laugh are easy - but you lose the audience's respect. Preachers would do well to avoid cheap laughs because the price is their authority.
Writing humorous material is hard, and delivering it is harder. If a preacher is authentically funny or light-hearted, it can enhance their rapport with the flock. But chasing laughs is lame.
I'd love to see more clever, edgy humour in preaching. But not at the price of good preaching generally.
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We’ve got to act like a church that hasn’t already internalized the narrative of its own decline Ray Suarez
Posts: 2599 | From: Australia | Registered: Feb 2003
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Sergius-Melli
Shipmate
# 17462
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
quote:
Originally posted by kankucho:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
Re being made in the image of God:
Nipples on men?
Genitourinary anatomy which combines the amusement park with waste treatment?
Navels?
(Can we talk here? I got banned for blasphemy from one Christian web community for playfully asking the Admin if he thought the God who made us in his image had a willy)
I can see the problem. God has a peter, not a willy.
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
Posts: 722 | From: Sneaking across Welsh hill and dale with a thurible in hand | Registered: Dec 2012
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by kankucho:
Dara O'Briain also wonders why a perfect creator God should have put our cheeks so perilously close to our powerful flesh-gringing molars.
Or our reproductive organs in such close proximity to our excretory organs.
Seriously.
I also can't understand how it can be explained in terms of evolution.
Posts: 3355 | Registered: Jan 2011
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Quinquireme
Shipmate
# 17384
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
I was thinking about this very issue driving in this morning. I have a sense of humour – some may disagree – but given that probably all humour is based on divisiveness and cruelty or humiliation of others, and also given that we are created in the image of God, how do these all reconcile?
Does God have a sense of humour? If so, how does He deal with the issues of divisiveness?
As Jack Dee pointed out, farts are the result of God proving He can make something much funnier than anything humans can invent. Admittedly, farts can be very divisive.
Posts: 56 | From: SE London | Registered: Oct 2012
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Deano, it looks like you just want all humor to be divisive, so you are coming up with outrageously convoluted arguments to make it so. Have it your way. You're wrong. I'm not going to try to "prove" it to you because it's clear you will twist any proof to dust. I'm sorry you feel that way about humor. You might consider discontinuing being funny, if only for the sake of your own soul.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by kankucho:
Dara O'Briain also wonders why a perfect creator God should have put our cheeks so perilously close to our powerful flesh-gringing molars.
Or our reproductive organs in such close proximity to our excretory organs.
What with all this talk of farting , I am reminded of an old school-yard joke about the sixty-nine position.
Do we still have school-yard jokes , or have the thought police put a stop to that ?
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Zacchaeus
Shipmate
# 14454
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Posted
Some years ago I read a book by Gerard or Gerald Hughes, sorry I can't remember which it was just too long ago..
He says Humour is Holy, because to see the funny side in soemthing you have to beve able to transcend the situation.
Posts: 1905 | From: the back of beyond | Registered: Jan 2009
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by jugular:
However, my liturgical persona is pretty straight. Occasionally I make a funny in a sermon. But I don't do punchline gags, I don't 'tell jokes', and I don't tend to set out to make people laugh. The only sort of humour I use in sermons is observational or to soften a critique.
I detest sermons which use jokes (punchline style gags) as an icebreaker. It basically signals to the listeners that the sermon is flimsy, and cheap tricks are needed to gain or sustain interest. In comedy, there is such a thing as a cheap laugh. Gags that get a quick, light laugh are easy - but you lose the audience's respect. Preachers would do well to avoid cheap laughs because the price is their authority.
Oh dear. I occasionally use funny punchline stories or jokes to illustrate where I'm going with a particular point. I feel convicted now.
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
Somewhere I came across a comment from one of the Fathers that sermons are more effective if they contain something amusing to sweeten the pill, but I have never been able to trace it again.
It seems to have been common around the time of the Reformation:
quote:
If anyone has a mind to make the experiment, let him go to church and hear sermons, in which if there be anything serious delivered, the audience is either asleep, yawning, or weary of it; but if the preacher--pardon my mistake, I would have said declaimer--as too often it happens, fall but into an old wives' story, they're presently awake, prick up their ears and gape after it.
From Erasmus' Praise of Folly.
Erasmus, as mentioned earlier, is himself quite entertaining. One of his Colloquies describes someone going to see a phial of the Virgin's milk at Walsingham. Logically, though, the milk is fifteen hundred years old, and therefore must look like 'powdered chalk in the white of an egg'.
[ 26. January 2013, 10:31: Message edited by: Ricardus ]
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
Oh dear. I occasionally use funny punchline stories or jokes to illustrate where I'm going with a particular point. I feel convicted now.
Please don't. Remember, he tells jokes for a living. So he's bound not to want people doing it for free.
It's like the clergy and apostolic succession, lawyers and people representing themselves or the police and have-a-go heroes.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Deano, it looks like you just want all humor to be divisive, so you are coming up with outrageously convoluted arguments to make it so. Have it your way. You're wrong. I'm not going to try to "prove" it to you because it's clear you will twist any proof to dust. I'm sorry you feel that way about humor. You might consider discontinuing being funny, if only for the sake of your own soul.
Weak. Very weak. Try reading up on the subject.
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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Anyuta
Shipmate
# 14692
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
Is all humour really based on divisiveness and cruelty or humiliation of others?
If that is the case, then neither wordplay nor self-deprecating humor is funny. But they are (or can be) funny. Therefore the claim is not true.
Well, wordplay depends on the context, but at the very least we can point to a division between the cleverness of the person playing with the words and those who “get” the joke, and those who are not clever enough to think of it or “get” it. It is a way of dividing clever people from no-so-clever people.
And self-deprecating humour is most definitely divisive as it divides “me” from the rest of the world. Or more accurately it divides “me and those who are like me” from the rest of the world. I don’t like driving, that’s why I drive a Honda! It divides me and other Honda drivers from those who like driving. But it is ironic though as I do like driving even though I drive a Honda. Self-deprecating humour is divisive.
So I stand by my statement that humour is based on division. You haven’t disproved it yet.
OK, here's the thing.. by this logic ANYTHIBG can be divisive. seriously, talk about a stretch! if I say "it's a nice day out today" then that divides me from those who prefer hotter/colder/sunnier/cloudier weather. There is nothing anyone can say which can't be turned into a divisive statement by someone determined to do so.
Humor certainly CAN be genuinely divisive, but as many have pointed out here, it absolutely doesn't have to be.
A professional comic may cringe at some "lame" jokes made by a preacher, but then a professional anything has a higher standard for their specialty than the average joe in the congregation probably does. I like it when my priest isn't TOO serious in his sermons, although some can get away with one liners better than others.
I am quite sure God has a sense of humor (if not, well.... not sure I'd like God all that much.) At any rate, Jesus clearly did.
this idea that somehow it's wrong to have fun, to laugh, to be silly, to enjoy life is, I think, a very wrong headed application of the concept of asceticism. If giving up bodily pleasures is good, and bodily pleasures bring us joy, then joy must be bad (making a leap between bodily pleasure and ALL pleasure.. aside from other flaws in the logic).
I think God means for us to enjoy life. and that includes having a good laugh from time to time, provided it's not at anyone else's expense and harms no one.
but hey, f you want to believe that it's wrong, fine. I don't think I'd enjoy your comedy show, though.
Posts: 764 | From: USA | Registered: Mar 2009
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anyuta:
... This idea that somehow it's wrong to have fun, to laugh, to be silly, to enjoy life is, I think, a very wrong headed application of the concept of asceticism. If giving up bodily pleasures is good, and bodily pleasures bring us joy, then joy must be bad (making a leap between bodily pleasure and ALL pleasure.. aside from other flaws in the logic).
I think God means for us to enjoy life. and that includes having a good laugh from time to time, provided it's not at anyone else's expense and harms no one.
I agree. Well said.
Your tradition, Anyuta, shames us all for the way it takes fasting seriously, but I've heard it said that it also teaches that it is a sin to fast on a feast day. That would be to reject the good gifts that God gives us. I'd love to be told that is not a myth, because it makes sense to me.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
Weak. Very weak. Try reading up on the subject.
What Anyuta said. Your arguments are fatuous and she has proven them so.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Anyuta
Shipmate
# 14692
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Anyuta:
... This idea that somehow it's wrong to have fun, to laugh, to be silly, to enjoy life is, I think, a very wrong headed application of the concept of asceticism. If giving up bodily pleasures is good, and bodily pleasures bring us joy, then joy must be bad (making a leap between bodily pleasure and ALL pleasure.. aside from other flaws in the logic).
I think God means for us to enjoy life. and that includes having a good laugh from time to time, provided it's not at anyone else's expense and harms no one.
I agree. Well said.
Your tradition, Anyuta, shames us all for the way it takes fasting seriously, but I've heard it said that it also teaches that it is a sin to fast on a feast day. That would be to reject the good gifts that God gives us. I'd love to be told that is not a myth, because it makes sense to me.
Well, "sin" (as that is commonly defined) is perhaps going too far, but yes fasting is indeed forbidden on certain days. Including the entire week after Pascha. We fast hard and feast hard! In fact, the word we use for "holiday" is " feast".
So no, it's not a myth.
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Pomona
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# 17175
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Posted
There's a Jewish tradition that when we appear before God in judgement, He will ask us how much we enjoyed the lives He has given us. Humour is surely included in that.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Palimpsest
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# 16772
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Posted
Self deprecating jokes don't attempt to be divisive. Will Rogers joke "I'm not a member of any organized party, I'm a Democrat" is intended to appeal to Democrats, and doesn't take any extra sting if uttered by a Republican.
Jokes that use surprise "Why does a Christian cross himself" are only divisive if you hate riddles and assume they are meant to taunt.
[ 27. January 2013, 06:27: Message edited by: Palimpsest ]
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churchgeek
Have candles, will pray
# 5557
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Posted
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Originally posted by rolyn:
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Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
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Originally posted by kankucho:
Dara O'Briain also wonders why a perfect creator God should have put our cheeks so perilously close to our powerful flesh-gringing molars.
Or our reproductive organs in such close proximity to our excretory organs.
What with all this talk of farting , I am reminded of an old school-yard joke about the sixty-nine position.
Here's another huge factor in humor - which may be subsumed under "surprise/unexpected" perhaps. But a HUGE amount of humor derives from our rather disjointed experience of being intellectual, spiritual animals. Our minds and hearts soar to the heavens, and our bodies fail us constantly. We tend to find that funny, or we very seriously and humorlessly wander over into some dualism or other and try to wish our bodies away. Which is also funny.
So the religion in which GOD took on one of these ridiculous bodies is surely one in which there's room for humor, including low-brow and scatological humor (although the latter, perhaps, not from the pulpit).
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My article on the Virgin of Vladimir
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churchgeek
Have candles, will pray
# 5557
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Posted
Notoriously, though, in the Bible, God only ever laughs derisively. Which is precisely the kind of laughter deano seems to be worried about.
I'd say there's a huge difference between derisive laughter (e.g., laughing at someone in scorn and mockery), which is hurtful towards the person being laughed at and unhealthy to the souls of those laughing, and the kind of laughter most of us actually enjoy, which usually has an element of recognition in it. We laugh at slapstick comedy (well, those that enjoy it) because on some level, we relate to clumsiness. If only our own clumsiness worked to such humorous effect! - But let me tell you, the best solution I've found for being pigeon-toed is just laughing at myself when I trip over my own feet, and hoping if anyone saw me maybe they also got a chuckle. Laughter/humor can thus be a check against vanity, taking ourselves too seriously, or even lacking empathy toward others, I think.
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I reserve the right to change my mind.
My article on the Virgin of Vladimir
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LucyP
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# 10476
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
These days we tend to take humour from the pulpit or platform for granted, but prior to Alexander it is difficult to think of any preacher or theologian who even approved of it, let alone employed it.
Can anyone think of other examples?
Did you just want non-fictional examples? If fiction is acceptable as a true reflection of society, Trollope portrays a comprehensive spectrum of clergymen, from the affable to the incompetent to the malevolent - and there is a bit of humour from time to time (though the style of humour is not necessarily shared by modern readers!)
This is from Miss Mackenzie, who has just arrived late to the reverend Stumfold's midweek Bible study.
quote:
“I'm so sorry,” Miss Mackenzie had uttered.
“Not in the least,” he replied. I knew you couldn't know, and therefore we ventured to wait a few minutes. The time hasn't been lost, as Mr Maguire has treated us to a theological argument of great weight.“
Then all the company laughed, and Miss Mackenzie perceived that Mr Stumfold could joke in his way. [......]
Two ladies asked Mr Stumfold questions with great pertinacity, and these questions Mr Stumfold answered very freely, walking about the room the while, and laughing as often as he submitted himself to their interrogations. [....]
“But I'm not going to have anything more to say to Peter and Paul at present.” he declared at last. “You'd keep me here all night, and the tea will be spoilt.“
Then they all laughed again at the absurd idea of this great and good man preferring his food -his food of this world – to that other food which it was his special business to dispense. There is nothing which the Stumfoldian ladies of Littlebath liked so much as these little jokes which bordered on the profanity of the outer world, which made them feel themselves to be almost as funny as the sinners, and gave them a slight taste, as it were, of the pleasures of iniquity.
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churchgeek
Have candles, will pray
# 5557
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Posted
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Originally posted by Palimpsest:
Jewish tradition differs on the matter of God laughing: The Rabbi laughed thrice.
That is beautiful, thank you! Such a wonderful, moving story, beautifully told.
To clarify: it's just that you'll be hard-pressed to find anything in Scripture where God laughs except in scorn over "his" enemies. However, the Bible speaks very much of God's joy, pleasure, and delight, and we may well imagine God laughing - as the Rabbis clearly do, and as many Christians do.
And, of course, there's the old tradition of the Easter joke. I'm told, anyway, that it was a custom to tell jokes on Easter Monday (or on each Sunday in Easter), because of the great trick God had played on the devil!
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I reserve the right to change my mind.
My article on the Virgin of Vladimir
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Kaplan Corday
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# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LucyP:
Did you just want non-fictional examples? If fiction is acceptable as a true reflection of society, Trollope portrays a comprehensive spectrum of clergymen, from the affable to the incompetent to the malevolent - and there is a bit of humour from time to time (though the style of humour is not necessarily shared by modern readers!)
Dickens, too, eg the Reverends Chadband and Stiggins.
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Angloid
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# 159
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Posted
One constant theme in humour is the dissociation between our ideals and how things actually are. This to me is what makes humour so compatible with Christianity, because we continually profess one thing and live the other.
In the same way, jokes about religion are the very opposite of blasphemous because they deflate our self-important ideas and our posturing which often hide God from view.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
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Posted
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Originally posted by Palimpsest:
Self deprecating jokes don't attempt to be divisive. Will Rogers joke "I'm not a member of any organized party, I'm a Democrat" is intended to appeal to Democrats, and doesn't take any extra sting if uttered by a Republican.
Similarly for such things as, "I'm not a member of an organized religion; I'm Orthodox" -- it is funny to the Orthodox precisely because it's true, and we realize that as a fault in ourselves.
[ 27. January 2013, 16:21: Message edited by: mousethief ]
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