Ship of Fools: Christian education - not the alpha course?

Thread: Christian education - not the alpha course? Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by mstevens (# 15437) on :

So I've posted here before about negative experiences with the alpha course (well, one negative experience, I felt the first session was so bad I only went once).

I've heard vague rumours there are actually good courses on Christianity I might prefer, more like an education than a sales pitch.

There's a fine line there somewhere, but I suspect it's possible to educate without so much attempting to convert.

So, what would you lot recommend?

Disclaimer: I'm lazy, may well not take any advice, and despite this question still fairly committed atheist.

Posted by The Rogue (# 2275) on :

Talk to people rather than going on a course. They aren't tied down by course structure or any particular topic.

In fact, if you could find a website where people discuss many Christian (and otherwise) topics from all kinds of perspectives I'm sure you could ask questions and learn a lot. Does anyone know of such a website?

Posted by Hairy Biker (# 12086) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mstevens:

There's a fine line there somewhere, but I suspect it's possible to educate without so much attempting to convert.

It's not a fine line at all. It's a world of difference. Alpha is evangelism pure and simple. It ignores the difficult questions and the bloody history of our faith and focuses on the "free gift" that's in it for you. Education is about understanding what we believe and why - and that won't necessarily bring you any closer to faith.

quote:
Originally posted by mstevens:

Disclaimer: I'm lazy, may well not take any advice, and despite this question still fairly committed atheist.

You'll never find faith while you're still a committed atheist. You will only find faith if you have a thirst for it. If you don't have a thirst for faith then most of what you learn about Christianity will drive you further away rather than drawing you nearer.

quote:
Originally posted by mstevens:

I've heard vague rumours there are actually good courses on Christianity I might prefer, more like an education than a sales pitch.

Don't ask Christians what they are. Your local church is geared up to welcoming you as a (tithe-paying) member or sending you away empty handed. No one is interested in educating you for your own edification.

Posted by Vertis (# 16279) on :

I agree that if you are 'committed' to atheism there's little you will gain from any course on the faith.

Nevertheless, my wife and I are currently running a course with a few friends that you can pick up fairly cheaply online. We can't do it 'officially' because we're Anglican and the course is Orthodox, though our priest is aware and happy enough.

It's called 'The Way' and is in twelve parts, structured rather like Alpha but much more meaty in an intellectual, theological sense. It's done by the IOCS, and whereas Alpha only deals with what every Western denomination can agree on, The Way obviously gives a clear steer on particular subjects.

While my wife and I were always going to enjoy it, we've found our friends from different backgrounds (including a Calvinist) has also appreciated it so far.

Search for "How to run The Way" on Amazon, everybody's favourite tax-dodging retailer...

Posted by Raptor Eye (# 16649) on :

I disagree with pretty much all that Hairy Biker said.

Alpha, run and tailored by the right people, may be an excellent place to ask questions without being evangelised. (I know that you haven't found it to be right for you.)

It's worth asking ministers whether they would be willing to talk on a one to one basis. I know that of the five local denominations, at least three of their ministers would be ready to do this, with no hard sell at all.

The fact that you are interested in finding out means that you have sufficient thirst for the truth to find it.

I can't recommend a course. Whether or not they would 'work' for you is inevitably subjective, and they may or may not be available near to you. There are various courses on line, libraries of books, and forums. I hope and pray that you'll satisfy your quest.

Posted by tclune (# 7959) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
Alpha, run and tailored by the right people, may be an excellent place to ask questions without being evangelised.

Absolutely. And your local automobile dealership is a terrific place to find unbiased information about the new car models without having to endure a sales pitch.

--Tom Clune

Posted by SusanDoris (# 12618) on :

mstevens

I hope you don't mind my asking, but I wonder why you think you might find the truth in any god, rather than in reality and scientific knowledge?

Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :

quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
mstevens

I hope you don't mind my asking, but I wonder why you think you might find the truth in any god, rather than in reality and scientific knowledge?

God isn't part of reality and incompatible with scientific knowledge? News to me and the majority of the world's population.

Mstevens, I sympathise with your experiences of Alpha! I second The Rogue and Vestis' comments, and am also wondering if the chaplaincy at your local university has any resources you might find helpful - most university chaplaincies are multifaith now so there would be resources on other faiths if you wanted them too, and plenty of people to chat to about their own faiths.

Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :

Missed the edit window - sorry, I did mean Vertis not Vestis.

Posted by The Great Gumby (# 10989) on :

quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
mstevens

I hope you don't mind my asking, but I wonder why you think you might find the truth in any god, rather than in reality and scientific knowledge?

What makes you think he thinks that? He's seeking to learn, presumably to better understand a belief he doesn't hold. I find that admirable.

There's also a fairly stark false dichotomy in your post - leaving the religion v science debate to one side, he can surely give a both/and answer, rather than being tied into either/or.

Posted by SusanDoris (# 12618) on :

The Great Gumby
Thank you. Yes, I'll stand corrected.

Posted by The Great Gumby (# 10989) on :

It's all good. [Smile]

I'm just interested to see if anyone has some useful suggestions.

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

I suppose if you're looking for an explanation of Christianity from a non-religious perspective then the best thing would be to do a non-confessional theology course at a university.

For those living in the vicinity, the Edward Cadbury Lectures at the University of Birmingham are currently about religion in modern society:
http://www.birmingham.ac.uk/schools/ptr/events/cadburylectures/index.aspx

There's also the Greenbelt Festival, which invites a range of speakers, some of whom are non-Christians, to talk about various issues that might be relevant to Christianity. Other talks that explore things such as church history or women in the RCC, etc. would be interesting from an intellectual point of view, and could be enjoyed by someone with no faith themselves. I suppose a non-Christian would probably choose to miss the worship or workshop sessions, though. Unless you were attending with a pushy religious friend or relative, there would be no pressure to attend worship.

Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :

Have you thought about looking at the Workers' Educational Association near you? The subjects of their courses are dependent on whatever teaching talent might be locally available, but you might hit lucky.

Posted by mstevens (# 15437) on :

Trying to reply to everyone at once, might miss something.

I possible came over more anti the religious angle than I wanted to. My ideal here is someone like C S Lewis, who is clearly religious and also wishes you to be, but is able to explain this without being pushy and unpleasant.

I have taken the obvious step for someone saying this of reading most of Lewis's stuff.

The Rogue: certainly that's one way of finding things out, but I find you end up with lots of little bits more than an overall picture.

Hairy Biker: in your terms I think education sounds good. On your other point, from the outside I was under the impression Christianity had a message and was keen to tell people about it (although not necessarily all christians all the time, of course).

Vertis: I disagree! I feel like I've already gained from contact with christianity in various ways, I don't see why further exposure might not also be beneficial. (not necessarily of course - for example I don't think my contact with the alpha course was at all valuable).

The Way could be interesting.

Raptor: You raise an interesting idea with books. I liked Lewis, as I said above.

Susan: I am all about the reality and scientific knowledge. Christianity is wrong but oddly interesting.

Adeodatus: interesting, I've not heard of them before.

Posted by Stick Monitor (# 17253) on :

I really like the Emmaus Course.

- it 'offers', not 'forces', the Christian faith
- infinitely more biblically literate than Alpha
- non-sectarian (co-written by a liberal-catholic bishop and an evangelical bishop)
- highly adaptable

I've presented it in mid-candle and snake-belly low environments with no problems.

Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on :

You could go to an FE college and take religious studies GCSE - they have various syllabus options and I think you could chose to focus on Christianity.

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Stick Monitor:
I really like the Emmaus Course.

- it 'offers', not 'forces', the Christian faith
- infinitely more biblically literate than Alpha
- non-sectarian (co-written by a liberal-catholic bishop and an evangelical bishop)
- highly adaptable

I've presented it in mid-candle and snake-belly low environments with no problems.

We've used Emmaus and I think their resources are excellent. However, like all these things, you do need to find a church that's using it to be able to experience one of their programmes. I suspect their material is more often used for house groups, rather than advertised as 'Emmaus' the way 'Alpha' is.

Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :

I took the Theology Quest and Questions course, which was available as a lecture course, or online. You could get a qualification at the end if you submitted essays, but it could also be taken for enjoyment. I can't find an example of it online at the moment, but here is the course available at Sarum College.

If you want to be told all the 'correct' answers, this course is not for you, but it is an excellent way to explore the subject for yourself, from all angles.

Posted by Snags (# 15351) on :

The problem with church-run courses (or, I suppose any courses, although straight academic ones less so) is that so much depends on the quality & nature of the people running them.

I have some essentially agnostic-leaning-to-atheist friends who had a dreadful Alpha experience at a church local to them, but who I suspect would have got a lot out of it had they been to the one run at the place I go. So rocking up "cold" to any of these things is a complete lottery, even before you get to the various biases and nuances of the different courses!

I've always got the impression that "Christianity Explored" is a somewhat more chilled out alternative to Alpha. It's still evangelistic, but makes less assumptions about conversion, and leaves more room in its native format, before whoever's running it adds their own touch.

Do you have any Christian friends/acquaintances who know you well enough to recommend something local that might suit you?

Posted by Earwig (# 12057) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mstevens:
So, what would you lot recommend?

I don't mean to sound glib, but, The Ship! I've learned more about Christianity here than I did on the Alpha Course I attended. And I'm a Christian!

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Snags:

I have some essentially agnostic-leaning-to-atheist friends who had a dreadful Alpha experience at a church local to them, but who I suspect would have got a lot out of it had they been to the one run at the place I go. So rocking up "cold" to any of these things is a complete lottery, even before you get to the various biases and nuances of the different courses!

[...]

Do you have any Christian friends/acquaintances who know you well enough to recommend something local that might suit you?

Part of the problem could be that one's Christian friends might not be attending the sort of church that's 'chilled out'. Most people who attend Alpha courses do so because they have friends or family members attending the church where the course is being held. This connection probably takes priority over the theological emphasis of the church.

Among the small number of complete strangers that turn up, I imagine that many of them have chosen a church that's close by and is running a course at the most convenient time, which may not leave many options. And few non-Christians will be clear about the theological differences between various churches anyway. If they did, perhaps they wouldn't need an Alpha course!

However, I note that you and mstevens live in London, where I assume there's a huge choice of churches and courses compared to the rest of the country. It shouldn't be too hard to find something there.

Posted by Clodsley Shovel (# 16662) on :

Ive never done Alpha (although they're keen for me too at the church I currently attend, sorry cant really be bothered....) but I have done Christianity Explored and found it very worthwhile, its basically a 7 week tour through St Marks Gospel with an accompanying video each week from a rather earnest but engaging chap called Rico Tice.

I suspect this is in part due to the fact that although the people leading it were keen to see new converts they didn't push it too hard. At the end of the course they said something to the effect that Christianity was personal and it was for each of us to take it further and left it at that.

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Clodsley Shovel:
Ive never done Alpha (although they're keen for me too at the church I currently attend, sorry cant really be bothered....) but I have done Christianity explored.

Why would they want to you do Alpha if you've already done a similar course? I assume that you're not a 'member' of this church, but simply attend. Are they using Alpha as a way of turning attenders into members, or perhaps to tighten up the bonds between everyone who comes to the church?

My impression is that many churches have bought into Alpha because of its brand recognition, without considering what their precise needs are. It's used mostly as a spiritual refresher for churchgoers, but then also as an evangelistic tool for people on the fringes and also entirely outside the church. And now we're told that it's also perfectly suitable for intellectual atheists who have absolutely no interest in becoming Christians but simply want a neutral, objective introduction to the faith. This mish-mash suggests to me a certain slippage or confusion about Alpha's purpose. Or maybe it's just me who's confused!

Posted by Clodsley Shovel (# 16662) on :

Yes currently we've been a few times and apparently its a good way to meet people at the church, which suggests that they may load the meetings with church members, which I gather is standard practice?

There hasn't been overt pressure to attend, more that this years course started last week and so every church notice, bulletin etc has mentioned it and obviously the regulars are focused on it.

I have no problem with a church wholeheartedly backing whichever 'evangelistic' course it decides to use but as you say there is the danger that they just become catch-alls for any new faces, the lady to whom I mentioned I'd done a similar course seemed not to have heard of it at all and just carried on inviting me!

Posted by Moo (# 107) on :

mstevens, if you want to get an idea of what Jesus was like, I highly recommend Dorothy Sayers' series of radio plays, The Man Born to Be King.

I have been a Christian all my life, but these plays convinced me that Jesus and the people he came in contact with were real human beings with individual characteristics.

Aside from that, the Introduction alone is very valuable. I highly recommend it.

Moo

Posted by Gwai (# 11076) on :

Interesting, I know quite want to hear those radio plays. Similarly, I love the poem in my signature because it is relatively biblically accurate, but also portrays a Jesus who feels very human and real to me without being un-divine.

Posted by Moo (# 107) on :

I've never heard them, but you can get them in print.

C. S. Lewis said that those plays had a major influence on his understanding of Jesus.

Moo

Posted by Ann (# 94) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
Interesting, I know quite want to hear those radio plays. Similarly, I love the poem in my signature because it is relatively biblically accurate, but also portrays a Jesus who feels very human and real to me without being un-divine.

Try here

Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mstevens:

Raptor: You raise an interesting idea with books. I liked Lewis, as I said above.

If you like C.S. Lewis and books try Mere Apologetics: How to Help Seekers and Skeptics Find Faith.

From the blurb:

quote:
In the spirit of C. S. Lewis's Mere Christianity, Alister McGrath's Mere Apologetics seeks to equip readers to engage gracefully and intelligently with the challenges facing the faith today while drawing appropriately on the wisdom of the past. Rather than supplying the fine detail of every apologetic issue in order to win arguments, Mere Apologetics teaches a method that appeals not only to the mind but also to the heart and the imagination. This highly accessible, easy-to-read book is perfect for pastors, teachers, students, and lay people who want to speak clearly and lovingly to the issues that confront people of faith today.

Posted by bib (# 13074) on :

I was asked to assist at an Alpha course and was quite horrified at the whole thing. I'm afraid that if that was my exposure to Christianity I would have run a mile to avoid it. IMHO evangelisation is best handled at an individual personal level, not as part of an aggressive marketing campaign.

Posted by churchgeek (# 5557) on :

We've started looking over a program called animate in the diocese where I work. I attended a few of the in-house (staff, for trial) classes, and it seems pretty decent. The people attending also seem to think well of it, on balance. There are a few qualifications we want to make here and there, but overall, it seems good for getting some quality conversations going.

There's a "journal," which I haven't found helpful, but that might just be me; and there are video presentations, each one featuring a different person - the journal does give some info on the speakers.

It covers broad topics like God, religion, salvation, church, and seems to be geared toward people who are thinking about church, are returning to church (perhaps to a different tradition), or may be newcomers. Apparently it's from the Lutherans. Here's a link to the website info:

Spark House publishing

Click on "The course" to see a list of topics & speakers.

[ 27. January 2013, 06:18: Message edited by: churchgeek ]

Posted by mstevens (# 15437) on :

It's late and I need to come back and make a longer response, but thanks for some good ideas.