Ship of Fools: No more cats

Thread: No more cats Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

Citing the massive ecological damage done, a New Zealand businessman has proposed the elimination of cats in New Zealand.
I like cats, I know the physiological benefit some receive from having one. But I cannot help but think he has a valid point.
This is very symbolic of our attitudes towards the environment, our comfort vs proper management.

Posted by tclune (# 7959) on :

After all this silly talk about made-made climate change, it's good to see that somebody is finally focusing in on the real environmental danger...

--Tom Clune

[ETA: Perhaps a governmental program to encourage the establishment of more Chinese restaurants in cat-rich environments could provide an innovative solution to this terrible problem.]

[ 24. January 2013, 18:10: Message edited by: tclune ]

Posted by jbohn (# 8753) on :

quote:
Originally posted by tclune:

[ETA: Perhaps a governmental program to encourage the establishment of more Chinese restaurants in cat-rich environments could provide an innovative solution to this terrible problem.]

Posted by Crœsos (# 238) on :

As blogger Erik Loomis points out, it's not cats that are the big environmental threat.

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :

I'm very disappointed that this thread is not No more Cats and would foreshadow the elimination of the works of Andrew Lloyd-Webber from the world's stages.

Posted by Rosa Winkel (# 11424) on :

First they came for the cats. Then they came for the humans (who fuck up the planet much more).

Posted by Angel Wrestler (# 13673) on :

Rossini would be scandalized. Mee-ee-ee-ow!

I hate to see endangered species eliminated and I know NZ has what we in North America and Europe would consider to be some exotic species (as our own endigenous species are all very ordinary, you see) and I do hate the thought of the ecosystem being disrupted in any way that harms native species. Humans are the most destructive force to natural habitats.

While humans do own cats and cats do hunt birds, I'd need more information (such as how much pollution has caused, perhaps, a decrease in what they feed on or whether breathing toxic air has caused them to develop diseases that wouldn't have otherwise occurred) to see that close a link to domestic cats and endangered bird species.

I wonder how protective this gentleman is of the small rodent population?

Meow

Posted by Hairy Biker (# 12086) on :

Cats are filthy animals that spread a parasite thought to be responsible for causing reckless behaviour in humans. They leave there faeces on your neighbours' lawns and they destroy the indigenous bird population. But most of all they do real harm to our community spirit by promoting the phrase "the more I know about people, the more I love my cat". I don't know how we wean our population off their cats, but they'll be the death of us.

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
After all this silly talk about made-made climate change, it's good to see that somebody is finally focusing in on the real environmental danger...

--Tom Clune

[ETA: Perhaps a governmental program to encourage the establishment of more Chinese restaurants in cat-rich environments could provide an innovative solution to this terrible problem.]

Because of course only one environmental problem can matter at a time.

Posted by Angel Wrestler (# 13673) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
I'm very disappointed that this thread is not No more Cats and would foreshadow the elimination of the works of Andrew Lloyd-Webber from the world's stages.

Oh, yeah. Him, too.

Hey! I rather like much of his music.

Posted by Gramps49 (# 16378) on :

Okay, eliminate cats. What are you going to do about mice? Bring in snakes? I know Florida will gladly let you export the 15,000 or so pythons that are invading the Everglades...

Posted by The Silent Acolyte (# 1158) on :

quote:
from the primary source:
The key things you can actively do RIGHT NOW to minimise cats impacts on the environment are

1. Get a bell for your cat. They may be less than 50% effective but every bit counts
2. Get your cat neutered if it has not been already
3. If you have a cat, keep it inside from now on.
4. Overcome your denial, domestic cats are an environmental threat, don’t replace your cat.
5. Sign this petition now lobbying local governments to require registration and micro-chipping of cats, to provide eradication facilities for unregistered cats, and encourage people to trap and turn in unwanted cats on their property

For urban dwellers, there is nothing new in the first three points.

I use a strictly indoor cat to keep my open fieldstone cellar free of vermin. I'm not sure how this plays out for vermin suppression in rural areas. It's probably impractical.

Item four is a fool's errand.

Item five probably should be modified to trap-neuter-and-release. A managed, fed, neutered population of feral cats provides pressure to keep unneutered cats out of its territory. This doesn't eliminate the problem of discretionary predation (or whatever it's called), but it would drive down the number of fertile feral cats, together with the consequent carnage.

Who's going to post the first link to a gratuitous cute-kitty pic?

[ 24. January 2013, 19:13: Message edited by: The Silent Acolyte ]

Posted by Soror Magna (# 9881) on :

Biggest risk to biodiversity everywhere is habitat loss. The footprint of my apartment building has eliminated more wildlife than all the cats that live here ever could.

Posted by Bean Sidhe (# 11823) on :

Cats aren't pets, it's been symbiosis since they joined us out of the desert. They kill vermin, we look after them. Birds? Nature is full of casualties.

Posted by AberVicar (# 16451) on :

My dogs advise me that they are totally in agreement and would like to volunteer to help should this be proposed in the UK.

Posted by Galilit (# 16470) on :

Last time (2009) I was in Aotearoa New Zealand the indigenous bird population was growing and expanding in its range to the point there were tui on The Terrace (Wellington's Central Business District).
Almost everyone has bells on their cat and it is spayed/neutered.
The small off-shore islands maybe. I seem to recall they did a few programmes to rid them of rats, cats and possums and that is Fair Enough since they are bird sanctuaries anyway.
Oh, come on....

Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on :

I prefer feral cats to rats, but that's me.

Posted by claret10 (# 16341) on :

quote:
Originally posted by AberVicar:
My dogs advise me that they are totally in agreement and would like to volunteer to help should this be proposed in the UK.

Yep my dog always tries to rid our neighbourhood of cats and also would like to volunteer her services. Although she does point out there are some humans it would be better to eradicate first.

Posted by tclune (# 7959) on :

Just remember -- if cats are outlawed, only outlaws will have cats...

--Tom Clune

Posted by Living in Gin (# 2572) on :

London tried to get rid of cats once, thinking they were associated with witchcraft. Look how well that turned out.

Posted by Mere Nick (# 11827) on :

quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
Just remember -- if cats are outlawed, only outlaws will have cats...

--Tom Clune

So true.

Despite being outlawed from being there, it turns out they have been caught on three different Chinese buffets I've eaten on. I figure all the others just haven't been caught yet.

General Tso's Cat is just too good to pass up.

Posted by Mere Nick (# 11827) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
I prefer feral cats to rats, but that's me.

I guess it all depends how they are cooked.

Posted by IconiumBound (# 754) on :

Coincident to this thread today there was discussion in a small group of which one member had just returned from Turkey and related how a cat came up beside her and climbed across her back and neck. No damage but it elicited a remark from another who is a veterinarian that Europe is being plagued by rabies primarily spread by feral cats. If that is true I wonder why is hasn't made headlines as the next natural disaster?

Posted by Grammatica (# 13248) on :

Regarding the actual impact of cats on the environment:

This website is worth a look: The National Geographic/ University of Georgia "KittyCams" project.

The project has followed free-roaming owned cats in Athens, GA who have been outfitted with a small camera on the collar.

From the website:

quote:
Results indicate that a minority of roaming cats in Athens (44%) hunt wildlife and that reptiles, mammals and invertebrates constitute the majority of suburban prey. Hunting cats captured an average of 2 items during seven days of roaming. Carolina anoles (small lizards) were the most common prey species followed by Woodland Voles (small mammals). Only one of the vertebrates captured was a non-native species (a House Mouse).

Birds, on the other hand, were rarely taken.

Even allowing for the fact that these cats regularly had food from humans, the results seem to indicate that the role of cats in bird predation has been much exaggerated.

Closer to home, the pileated woodpecker I once had in my camphor tree fell to a rat snake, not a cat.

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

There are 2 suburbs of Canberra in which cat ownership is highly regulated.

Apparentl it works, although I'm on the other side of the city so I don't know a great deal about it.

New Zealand also has a strong history of eliminating feral pests from isolated areas.

I see nothing particularly odd about arguing that the same goal should be attempted on a larger scale. The desire to keep animals from another continent as pets is to a large extent cultural. Does anyone think the indigenous people of New Zealand or Australia were deficient because cats weren't available as one of the animals? Were children there and in the Americas emotionally stunted and scarred because they couldn't own a pony?

Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :

'Poppin' pussies into pies! Wouldn't do in my shop!
Just the thought of it's enough to make you sick!
And I'm tellin' you, them pussycats is quick!'

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Angel Wrestler:
While humans do own cats and cats do hunt birds, I'd need more information (such as how much pollution has caused, perhaps, a decrease in what they feed on or whether breathing toxic air has caused them to develop diseases that wouldn't have otherwise occurred) to see that close a link to domestic cats and endangered bird species.

It's pretty darn easy to tell the difference, as dying from disease or loss of habitat doesn't leave you with your body ripped to shreds.

New Zealand has no natural mammals. I don't think people realise the profound consequences of this, ecologically. Birds fill every ecological niche.

And "cats do hunt birds" simply doesn't do justice to the situation. On continents with cats or cat-like predators, cats do indeed hunt birds. In lands where no such creature as a cat naturally exists, cats walk up to defenseless sitting ducks and slaughter them.

Posted by Evangeline (# 7002) on :

I'm really amazed by how many of you see fit, from half a world away to mock, dismiss as irrelevant and offer comment as though you have knowledge of New Zealand's ecosystem when you obviously don't. Talk about Euro and North American centric.

quote:
After all this silly talk about made-made climate change, it's good to see that somebody is finally focusing in on the real environmental danger...

--Tom Clune

[ETA: Perhaps a governmental program to encourage the establishment of more Chinese restaurants in cat-rich environments could provide an innovative solution to this terrible problem.]

I get it that you don't care about NZ environmental problems, why should you but it's nonsensical to ignore an environmental problem because there's a bigger one, and a bigger one that NZ contributes little to and has bugga all ability to do much about.

quote:
Grammatica
Results indicate that a minority of roaming cats in Athens (44%) hunt wildlife and that reptiles, mammals and invertebrates constitute the majority of suburban prey. Hunting cats captured an average of 2 items during seven days of roaming. Carolina anoles (small lizards) were the most common prey species followed by Woodland Voles (small mammals). Only one of the vertebrates captured was a non-native species (a House Mouse).
Birds, on the other hand, were rarely taken.

Even allowing for the fact that these cats regularly had food from humans, the results seem to indicate that the role of cats in bird predation has been much exaggerated

You do realise that Georgia is geographically and environmentally incredibly different from New Zealand? How many flightless birds ya'll got in Georgia? Cats killing any native fauna including reptiles, which seems to be dismissed in the bit you quote IS of environmental consequence.

Cats are a major environmental menace in New Zealand. Where you have domestic cats you also have feral cats who, per head, kill a lot more animals and reptiles than do domestic cats. New Zealand's fauna was free of carnivorous predators so many of their species, particularly the small, flightless birds that forage on the ground for food had no defence against cats and there are examples of one domestic cat introduced onto an island making native species extinct.

Unfortunately because of European introduction of pests such as rabbits, non-native rat species and possums the situation in New Zealand has been complicated, so I have no idea whether eradicating cats would be as good for the environment as one might think (it wasn't in Australia where cats were eradicated from Macquarie Island) but I'd sure as hell wouldn't ridicule a suggestion to do so from somebody who actually lives in New Zealand and might have a clue as to what is going on there.

As for the comfort vs environmental management issue mentioned in the OP. People don't need cats for comfort, as Orfeo said the Maori weren't physiologically deprived because they didn't have cats prior to European migration.

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

Sorry, I was wrong to say New Zealand has no natural mammals.

It has bats.

There's also marine mammals around, of course.

This may prove educational.

Posted by John Holding (# 158) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:

quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
I prefer feral cats to rats, but that's me.
I guess it all depends how they are cooked.

And the cry went up: "Where's Campbellite when you need him?"

John

Posted by anoesis (# 14189) on :

I live in NZ. I own a cat. I also don't think there is anything massively unreasonable about Gareth Morgan's proposals. At least he is starting the conversation around the issue of cats.

Now, I like cats. (Why would I own one, otherwise?). I don't think anyone needs to be worried that he will actually get any traction for 'don't replace' laws with regard to cats. We haven't even managed to ban certain species of dogs here, for their high rates of mauling human beings...

I do support the idea of registration and microchipping of cats. No-one seriously questions its application to dogs. Why not cats? Of course it would cost cat owners money - tough shit. It could also be used to incentivise owners to de-sex their cats, by making registration of a non-neutered animal more expensive. This way owners would have to make a choice to breed from their cats rather than it being accidental. And this, I think, could help with the feral cat problem, which is likely the nubbin of the issue. Feral cats have to forage ALL their food, are much more likely to be non-neutered and/or diseased. I live in a city now, but I grew up 'in the bush', as it were, out in the middle of nowhere, and there was a feral cat problem in the bush around our home, due at least in part by people dumping 'accidental' kittens because they didn't want them, couldn't get rid of them, and were too squeamish to euthanise them.

Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on :

Heyyyy, what about advertising cat huntin' holidays in EnZed in the good ole YooEss of Ay ? Bring yer own AyKay.

All the fun of a school rampage and none of the guilt!

Posted by anoesis (# 14189) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Galilit:
Last time (2009) I was in Aotearoa New Zealand the indigenous bird population was growing and expanding in its range to the point there were tui on The Terrace (Wellington's Central Business District).
Almost everyone has bells on their cat...

To your anecdotal experience I will add my own, which is that I see plenty of cats every day from my house and section, and I don't recall the last time I saw one with a bell on. Though of course I don't live in Wellington...maybe they do things differently there.

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

Martin, I'm in love with you this morning.

We can provide a list of feral animals to hunt in Australia too. Forget cats, we can also offer you foxes, pigs and rabbits. MICE if you want to just fire randomly into a seething mass of thousands of the things.

Oh and wild horses as well, though people are extremely touchy about that one.

Posted by Psmith (# 15311) on :

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Martin, I'm in love with you this morning.

We can provide a list of feral animals to hunt in Australia too. Forget cats, we can also offer you foxes, pigs and rabbits. MICE if you want to just fire randomly into a seething mass of thousands of the things.

Oh and wild horses as well, though people are extremely touchy about that one.

Last summer there were protests outside a restaurant that served horse meat (raised for slaughter) in Toronto. While I've no quarrel with vegetarianism, I don't understand eating beef but shunning horse as unethical.

On topic now: there is a great deal difference between feral cats in an ecosystem with wild cats and one like that of New Zealand. In the former this might seem an excessive response (though I'm not sure about that), while in the latter it certainly is not. The gravity of the effect of invasive species is clear in many places- the collapse of ecosystems and the dominance of the new species and the loss of others. The normalcy of cat ownership and the acceptance of gross irresponsibility on the part of owners increases the danger in this case, not (as many people seam to think) the reverse.

The perennial excuse to do nothing in the face of a problem, as invoked by Tom, would, if acted upon generally, make the world a worse place in uncountable ways. It is actually possible for a country to deal with more than one thing at a time.

[ 24. January 2013, 23:08: Message edited by: Psmith ]

Posted by Anglican_Brat (# 12349) on :

The goddess Bast would not be pleased.

I must have been a cat in a past life. The last time I saw a cat on the sidewalk, I said "Meow" in response. It at least appreciated my attempt to communicate which is more than some humans. It came and rubbed against my legs.

So, no, I would not be in favor of killing our feline brothers and sisters in Christ.

[ 24. January 2013, 23:37: Message edited by: Anglican_Brat ]

Posted by Nicolemr (# 28) on :

Cats should be kept indoors anyway. And neutered. This for their own good as well as for the environment.

Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on :

I can't host this thread - my cat is purring at me.

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
The goddess Bast would not be pleased.

The goddess Bast would be looked at with complete mystification by the Maoris.

More than anything else, I think this map of the natural range of cats illustrates that there's a very good reason for a different attitude in a particular corner of the world. Bast comes from cat central.

Posted by teddybear (# 7842) on :

You can have my cats when you pry them from my cold, dead hands.

Posted by anoesis (# 14189) on :

quote:
Originally posted by teddybear:
You can have my cats when you pry them from my cold, dead hands.

Here's the thing - so far as I can see, anyway, no-one is talking about prying anyone's existing much-loved pets away from their hands, dead or otherwise.

What is being proposed (and it's worth noting that it's being proposed by someone who has no legislative or political brief), is this:

Firstly, when your current cat shuffles off this mortal coil, people are being encouraged to have a think about cat ownership within its wider context and consider how it might affect the environment around them as part of the process of deciding whether to replace said cat.

Secondly, it is proposing attaching conditions to cat ownership, in the same way that (legal) dog ownership is subject to conditions in most developed countries. I suspect a lot of people are getting upset about the idea of 'eradication facilities for unregistered cats', as mentioned in the original article, but again, such facilities exist for dogs and no-one is jumping up and down about it (here, anyway), and in theory no-one's valued pet should ever get 'eradicated' under such a system, because a valued pet would be microchipped and its owners therefore traceable. Another good thing about a system like this would be that badly neglected or abused cats, if microchipped, provide a track back to the most likely culprits.

Posted by Evangeline (# 7002) on :

quote:
Originally posted by anoesis:

quote:
Originally posted by teddybear:
You can have my cats when you pry them from my cold, dead hands.
Here's the thing - so far as I can see, anyway, no-one is talking about prying anyone's existing much-loved pets away from their hands, dead or otherwise.

Quite, and not to mention that nobody on this thread(or anywhere else to the best of my knowledge) has mentioned doing anything about cats in Topeka, Kansas USA.

Posted by Grammatica (# 13248) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
I'm really amazed by how many of you see fit, from half a world away to mock, dismiss as irrelevant and offer comment as though you have knowledge of New Zealand's ecosystem when you obviously don't. Talk about Euro and North American centric.

quote:
Grammatica
Results indicate that a minority of roaming cats in Athens (44%) hunt wildlife and that reptiles, mammals and invertebrates constitute the majority of suburban prey. Hunting cats captured an average of 2 items during seven days of roaming. Carolina anoles (small lizards) were the most common prey species followed by Woodland Voles (small mammals). Only one of the vertebrates captured was a non-native species (a House Mouse).
Birds, on the other hand, were rarely taken.

Even allowing for the fact that these cats regularly had food from humans, the results seem to indicate that the role of cats in bird predation has been much exaggerated
You do realise that Georgia is geographically and environmentally incredibly different from New Zealand? How many flightless birds ya'll got in Georgia? Cats killing any native fauna including reptiles, which seems to be dismissed in the bit you quote IS of environmental consequence.

Cats are a major environmental menace in New Zealand. Where you have domestic cats you also have feral cats who, per head, kill a lot more animals and reptiles than do domestic cats. New Zealand's fauna was free of carnivorous predators so many of their species, particularly the small, flightless birds that forage on the ground for food had no defence against cats and there are examples of one domestic cat introduced onto an island making native species extinct.

Unfortunately because of European introduction of pests such as rabbits, non-native rat species and possums the situation in New Zealand has been complicated, so I have no idea whether eradicating cats would be as good for the environment as one might think (it wasn't in Australia where cats were eradicated from Macquarie Island) but I'd sure as hell wouldn't ridicule a suggestion to do so from somebody who actually lives in New Zealand and might have a clue as to what is going on there.

Do you honestly think that what I posted was posted to ridicule you? It happened to be a set of facts in disagreement with what seems to be your own position on the matter. Your response strikes me as a bit oversensitive.

You may want to know that there happena to be a very large population of feral cats in my part of Florida, also. I'm quite familiar with the issues, thank you. Trap, neuter, release is the preferred method for control, though it takes a good bit of work to implement, and most local governments don't want to be bothered. We have some volunteers who trap and spay, though. If feral cats are fed, as in the observations I cited, they will tend not to take prey, and if they are neutered, they do not reproduce.

But it does strike me that the ship's rats did more damage to most of New Zealand's birds early on than the introduction of cats did. Rats eat bird eggs.

Posted by Evangeline (# 7002) on :

quote:
Do you honestly think that what I posted was posted to ridicule you? It happened to be a set of facts in disagreement with what seems to be your own position on the matter. Your response strikes me as a bit oversensitive.

Your comments fell into the offering comment when you have no idea of NZ's ecoystem and no I don't believe any of the comments that did ridicule getting rid of cats in NZ had anything to do with ridiculing me.

Your facts are not in disagreement with my position on the matter because they have absolutely no relevance to the environmental impact of cats on the NZ ecosystem, that was my whole point.

And again

quote:
You may want to know that there happena to be a very large population of feral cats in my part of Florida, also. I'm quite familiar with the issues, thank you.

No, you're still talking about what happens in the US, which has an ecosystem entirely different from NZ's [brick wall]

Your whittering on about birds not being prey of cats in Georgia makes it quite clear you're quite ignorant of the issues with cats in NZ. The fact that there are feral cats where you live is entirely irrelevant.

Posted by Grammatica (# 13248) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:

quote:
Do you honestly think that what I posted was posted to ridicule you? It happened to be a set of facts in disagreement with what seems to be your own position on the matter. Your response strikes me as a bit oversensitive.
Your comments fell into the offering comment when you have no idea of NZ's ecoystem and no I don't believe any of the comments that did ridicule getting rid of cats in NZ had anything to do with ridiculing me.

Your facts are not in disagreement with my position on the matter because they have absolutely no relevance to the environmental impact of cats on the NZ ecosystem, that was my whole point.

And again
quote:
You may want to know that there happena to be a very large population of feral cats in my part of Florida, also. I'm quite familiar with the issues, thank you.
No, you're still talking about what happens in the US, which has an ecosystem entirely different from NZ's Your whittering on about birds not being prey of cats in Georgia makes it quite clear you're quite ignorant of the issues with cats in NZ. The fact that there are feral cats where you live is entirely irrelevant.

Nonsense. Goodbye.

Posted by The Silent Acolyte (# 1158) on :

Well argued, Grammmatica!

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

It's not nonsense. The whole point is that the diet of feral cats in an ecosystem that already knows about carnivores in the cat family is going to be utterly different, because the potential prey is going to have defence mechanisms against cats.

In the case of birds, one of the major defence mechanisms is flying.

Large numbers of the birds in New Zealand either don't fly or fly fairly poorly, precisely because they had no need to fly any better.

Cats represent the abrupt introduction of a need to fly better, and the New Zealand birds are not in a position to abruptly start flying better in accordance with the need.

The end result is that the diet of a cat in a region with birds that can fly well is a fairly hopeless indication of the diet of a cat in New Zealand.

Posted by The Silent Acolyte (# 1158) on :

And, the upstart cats have found the proverbial Free Lunch at the New Zealand Feline Bird Buffet. Open 24-7.

Posted by Grammatica (# 13248) on :

If the evidence shows that cats are entirely to blame for the death of the birds of New Zealand, well, then, of course, the rest follows.

I am wondering what that evidence is. Does anyone have that evidence?

Some evidence was presented (by me) that the role of the cat as a bird predator may be exaggerated in popular thinking.

It was, yes, taken from the United States. However, cats are the same animals in both countries.

So some generalizations might be possible.

Likewise, some generalizations from attempts in the US to control feral cat populations might be possible. Some best practices might be found useful in other ecosystems.

In a better world than ours, perhaps, these things might be true.

In this world, I have no desire at all to pursue this discussion any further. Others may.

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Grammatica:
However, cats are the same animals in both countries.

That's like saying that elephants are the same animals regardless of whether they're in an East African grassland or your neighbour's backyard.

Posted by Athrawes (# 9594) on :

Grammatica, while the cat is the same in any environment, the variety of prey is not. I know the mess ferral cats make of our local wildlife here in Australia, and at least our birds can fly to avoid them. Wikipedia gives an overview of some of the issues.

Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on :

teddybear - even Chuck Heston would have laughed at that.

Posted by anoesis (# 14189) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Grammatica:
If the evidence shows that cats are entirely to blame for the death of the birds of New Zealand, well, then, of course, the rest follows.

I am wondering what that evidence is. Does anyone have that evidence?

Cats are not entirely to blame for all the killings of native birds which go on here, of course. Here is a link to the Department of Conservation's webpage on animal pests. As far as birds (rather than flora) go, the real nasties are stoats, weasels, and ferrets. Large sums of money are spent every year in an attempt to mediate the threat they present to birdlife. None of this changes the fact that feral cats, and in some areas, domestic cats also, represent a significant modifiable risk factor. As such, it seems to me entirely appropriate that we (NZ'ers) be asked to begin a conversation about how such a risk factor might be managed, particularly given that as far as bush-living feral cats are concerned, efforts to eliminate mustelids may simply create a vacuum in the food chain which they can then further occupy.

I also begin to wonder if we have strayed a bit from the original point lilBuddha was looking to discuss, namely,

quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
This is very symbolic of our attitudes towards the environment, our comfort vs proper management.

It is exactly that. It is NIMBY-ism in another form. Taking care of our environment/protecting our local ecosystems, is someone else's problem. It has nothing to do with my household, and the decisions we make in it, does it? At least that's what our useless Prime Minister seems to think, apparently based on nothing more than the fact that his cat is docile and purry. He goes on to declare 'a few cats catching birds' to 'not be the big issue', but fails to specify what the big issue is. I think lilBuddha has nailed the big issue in one. Our comfort vs. proper management. Our comfort vs. unpalatable truths. Our comfort vs. making changes to the way we do things. And so on.

Posted by Jane R (# 331) on :

If it's scientific data you're after, try this research project from the University of Reading. Their study of urban cats suggests that cats are indeed affecting the wildlife populations in some areas of the UK, despite the fact that our birds can fly.

Cats don't need to catch the bird to kill it; for a ground-feeding bird in an area with 600-odd cats per square kilometre, all they have to do is make it impossible for the bird to feed.

Posted by Arminian (# 16607) on :

A far bigger problem to birds is intensive farming. Ironically I have a cat, but with the addition of a bell, keeping it indoors while baby birds are about, its only downed one bird in three years. By contract careful garden feeding has seen the population of small birds increase dramatically. So anecdotally, in my garden the addition of a cat hasn't reduced wildlife at all. By careful management its increased Without cats the mouse population would rapidly increase, spreading disease.

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Arminian:
Without cats the mouse population would rapidly increase, spreading disease.

New Zealand isn't supposed to have mice, either...

And neither is Australia. Even with cats around we get things like this.

(For once, dramatic Fox America voiceovers are appropriate!)

Just trying to illustrate the flaws of making assumptions based on your natural ecology on another continent.

Posted by Jane R (# 331) on :

Did you bother to click on the link? The blurb on the page acknowledges the major problems of habitat destruction and fragmentation along with change in land use. The project was specifically formulated to measure the impact of urban cats on wildlife, and it concluded that there IS a significant impact.

I don't have a cat and have never had problems with mice. If I did there are plenty of other ways of controlling them besides buying a cat.

This is beginning to remind me of the gun control thread...

[x-posted with Orfeo]

[ 25. January 2013, 09:10: Message edited by: Jane R ]

Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :

Jane R:

quote:
This is beginning to remind me of the gun control thread...

Except that guns don't purr and rub up against us or comfort us when we're lonely.

Yeah, yeah, the logical arguments may be on the side of the ban, but to people who have loved cats, it sounds as coldly hollow as hearing your best friend's family is being ejected from the neighborhood.

Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Grammatica:
However, cats are the same animals in both countries.

That's irrelevant. The point is that the animals they're hunting are different in different countries.

Posted by Jane R (# 331) on :

Lyda Rose:

quote:
Yeah, yeah, the logical arguments may be on the side of the ban, but to people who have loved cats, it sounds as coldly hollow as hearing your best friend's family is being ejected from the neighborhood.

I understand that. I am not particularly keen on cats myself but even I hit the brakes when one runs out in front of my car. I just find it difficult to sympathise with cat owners who say 'well MY cat isn't part of the problem' or 'The real problems are caused by people' (yes, and you're a person) or 'Not allowing cats to hunt Upsets The Balance Of Nature' (well, feeding them catfood does too).

And btw Arminian, the plural of anecdote is NOT data. If it were, I might be tempted to tell you about the effect my previous neighbours' four (count them, FOUR) cats had on the wildlife in our garden.

Posted by Maureen Lash (# 17192) on :

Well I feel I might go to Cats Protection this afternoon to get another five and mount a bird feeder on the ground outside the back door just to annoy that stupid man.

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

Wow. That's... words fail me when it comes to that as a response.

[ 25. January 2013, 09:57: Message edited by: orfeo ]

Posted by bib (# 13074) on :

Feral cats are a real problem where I live as they decimate the small native birds and animals. Domestic cats, when properly managed aren't a problem, but there will always be members of the public who don't fulfil their responsibilities and therefore the cat problem becomes serious. I would like to see cats removed from my country as they are becoming an ecological nightmare.

Posted by Jane R (# 331) on :

Maureen:

quote:
...just to annoy that stupid man

Who are you calling a man?

Also, this may come as a shock to you but Cats Protection are unlikely to let you have one cat (let alone five) if you aren't prepared to buy them catfood.

Posted by Grammatica (# 13248) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:

This is beginning to remind me of the gun control thread...

Yes, that sums it up.

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

quote:
Originally posted by anoesis:

I also begin to wonder if we have strayed a bit from the original point lilBuddha was looking to discuss, namely,

quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
This is very symbolic of our attitudes towards the environment, our comfort vs proper management.
It is exactly that. It is NIMBY-ism in another form. Taking care of our environment/protecting our local ecosystems, is someone else's problem. It has nothing to do with my household, and the decisions we make in it, does it?

I did wish to discuss the bigger picture, but the cat issue has proven to be exactly the problem. "I want my comfort and to hell with anything else." This basic attitude, for different factors of comfort; strips our resources, scars our landscape, extinguishes species and kills other people.

Posted by Maureen Lash (# 17192) on :

I was hoping to feed them on the birds that use the feeder. I already have five cats and feed about 6 or 7 others.

Posted by tclune (# 7959) on :

quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
This basic attitude, for different factors of comfort; strips our resources, scars our landscape, extinguishes species and kills other people.

I used to have a cat like that...

--Tom Clune

[Edited to change "own" to "have." Nobody could legitimately claim to "own" Elmo...]

[ 25. January 2013, 15:59: Message edited by: tclune ]

Posted by snowgoose (# 4394) on :

I realize New Zealand's ecosystem is very different from ours in Virginia and that introduced predators can do serious damage to the indigenous fauna.

That being said, you can't ignore the fact that there are other introduced species (rats, for example) that are also a problem there. In the house we lived in 20 years ago we had to get a (neutered an microchipped) cat to kill the mice that were attracting snakes to the house. I know you don't have snakes, but I am sure you sometimes have rodent problems, because rodents breed like--well, rats.

Every cat that comes out of our local Humane Society is microchipped. Everyone who gets a cat is strongly urged to keep it indoors. Some animal rescue places will not let you have a cat if you don't intend to keep it inside.

There are feral cats, of course, but we have a pretty good TNR program, which keeps the population down. The (spayed and microchipped) stray cat who has adopted us keeps the voles from destroying my garden. Her territory is limited because she stays close to her food dish and heated bed in the garage.

It would certainly not be a perfect situation in a land of flightless birds, but educating cat owners, along with microchipping and TNR programs, could certainly help contain the problem.

It is also more realistic, because people love their pets. I would be very surprised if they were able to get the votes to ban cats completely.

Posted by Wilfried (# 12277) on :

quote:
Originally posted by tclune:

[ETA: Perhaps a governmental program to encourage the establishment of more Chinese restaurants in cat-rich environments could provide an innovative solution to this terrible problem.]

For the record, I am Chinese, living in a city with one of the highest concentrations of Chinese restaurants in the Western Hemisphere, and I have yet to see cat on the menu. I have traveled to various countries in Asia, and have yet seen cat served there either. And yes, I own a cat, and am quite fond of him alive, and in any case at his age, he's likely to be too stringy to be palatable. Not effective.

Posted by Wilfried (# 12277) on :

Edited to eliminate double post. Apologies.

[ 25. January 2013, 18:20: Message edited by: Wilfried ]

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

Cats are certainly on the menu in many countries, including some regions of China. However, the stories of cat meat in Chinese restaurants in western countries is almost certainly apocryphal.

Posted by Bean Sidhe (# 11823) on :

We have two cats, who roam free 24/7, the cat flap always open. I agreed to them, reluctantly, when our kids begged us after a schoolfriend's cat had a litter, because we had a problem with rats. I've seen no sign of a rat since.

Thery're getting old now, spend most of their time flopping around the house, though still no rats - their odour hanging around I guess (hope!) When they were younger, apart from one sad incident with a starling, I saw no sign that they predated anything but rodents.

Introduced species can have a devastating effect on some local fauna, from competition as well as predation. North American grey squirrels have all but extinguished the European Red from the UK. Aggressive buggers, our cats have learnt to leave them well alone.

But, but... we are part of nature, what we do to an ecosystem is part of that ecosystem. Species come and go. We get exercised about anything warm and furry or feathered that is threatened, less so about poikilotherms, especially invertebrates. Too much 'environmentalism' hangs on the coat-tails of anthropomorphism. I'm way more concerned about climate change than the effect of cats.

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :

I've nothing in particular against cats (though I would prefer them not to use our herb garden as a toilet) but can I get a license to shoot magpie? These buggers thrive on fledgelings and while there are fewer than there used to be, I'd like to help.

Posted by Anyuta (# 14692) on :

judging how much hunting your cat does based on what you see or what they bring home as a "gift" is probably very much under-estimating.

I have three cats (neutered) who are indoor-outdoor with free access through a cat door. I got the first to eliminate mice, which he did. (we had a pretty serious problem although not nearly like the video posted earlier).

But I live in VA. Here most small cat prey have other natural predators. and the rodents they primarily bring home are pests whose populations have established an equilibrium with all the local predators, including cats. If I lived in NZ I would probably not have cats or if I did I would not allow them outside. I understand the unique problem. yes, it's tru, nature does deal. but here's the thing.. WE have to live in this world right now. in the long run, nature will work around anything and come out fine. it's done it before, it will do it again. but we live in the short term, and we have to deal with the consequences right NOW. changes in climate and ecosystem are going to impact us. invasive xenobiotics impact us now. we can ignore it, of course, just as we can certainly ignore climate changed.. but then we have to live with the consequences, and those consequences may be very unpleasant.

It's also true that humans tend to react much more positively to the plight of cute critters, rather than slimy, or scaly or multi-legged ones. we used to refer to them as "charismatic mega fauna" (although that term is misleading). but the thing is that often those cute critters share an ecotystem with other critters less cute and cuddly, and protecting the ecosystem of one protects it for the rest. That is why the Endangered Species Act is so valuable.. sure, it protects spotted owls etc., but in the meantime it also protects the ecosystems they live in. Other laws don't have that power.

it doesn't have to be either/or. we can try to minimize the impact we have on the surrounding world ever way we can, from the littlest actions to the biggest. saying "well, I did X so I don't have to do Y" is silly. saying "we can't stop the big things so let's not worry about the little things" is also silly. we should all do the maximum we can, in whatever way we can.

I made the mistake of planting an invasive in my yard. I had no idea when I bought it that it was invasive. stupid, because I should have researched, but I made an assumption and we all know what that does. Anyhow, this invasive has now spread from it's original location. It's hard to eradicate, but not all that hard to control. on the other hand, there are other invasives all over the yard which I had nothing to do with introducing. I'm constantly waging war on the honey suckle for example, which is FAR more invasive than the plant I introduced. does that mean I go ahead and keep my own plant because after all, it's not as bad as the other one? why should it? I can do that more easily, and still have energy to fight with the big bad. it's not either or.

I often fantacise about moving to NZ (for various reasons not at all connected to this thread). if I did, I'd take my cats with me and keep them indoors. but I would not replace them when they passed. I'd invest in some other pet that isn't quite so hard on the locals.

Posted by Twilight (# 2832) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Hairy Biker:
Cats are filthy animals that spread a parasite thought to be responsible for causing reckless behaviour in humans.

Dr E. Fuller Torrey of the Stanley foundation's research center believes that schizophrenia is caused by a virus spread by cats. I have one anyway. Cats have ways of worming their way into your heart as well as your brain.

As to NZ's problem, I would suggest they introduce ten thousand dachshunds. They can weed out the weasels, ferrets, badgers and cats all at once, or at least make their lives miserable. Of course then you have other problems. Australia would complain about the barking.

The cat lovers should get bumper stickers that say, "Not before the pitbulls."

Posted by Mere Nick (# 11827) on :

We keep our cat inside like we normally do with our guns.

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Cats are certainly on the menu in many countries, including some regions of China. However, the stories of cat meat in Chinese restaurants in western countries is almost certainly apocryphal.

To be honest, any time I see a suggestion about eating cats, I think "you haven't smelled the inside of a cat".

I have smelled the inside of an Australian feral cat, and I and all my dear old classmates from Parasitology in the late 1990s can attest to the fact that the smell is absolutely revolting in a way that the inside of other animals isn't.

And having babysat a domestic cat, and recognised the same general aroma in weaker form coming from kitty litter, I'm fairly sure the revolting smell is a function of the cat part, not the feral part.

Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:

quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Cats are certainly on the menu in many countries, including some regions of China. However, the stories of cat meat in Chinese restaurants in western countries is almost certainly apocryphal.
To be honest, any time I see a suggestion about eating cats, I think "you haven't smelled the inside of a cat".

I have smelled the inside of an Australian feral cat, and I and all my dear old classmates from Parasitology in the late 1990s can attest to the fact that the smell is absolutely revolting in a way that the inside of other animals isn't.

And having babysat a domestic cat, and recognised the same general aroma in weaker form coming from kitty litter, I'm fairly sure the revolting smell is a function of the cat part, not the feral part.

If a cat is fed properly (a raw meat, grain-free diet), there is no issue with stinky litter trays. Given that I'm sure feral cats probably eat a lot of less-than-optimum food to stay alive, and most commercial cat food has far too much grain and other fillers, it's their diet not the fact that they are cats. Cats are obligate carnivores and most cat food on the market isn't actually very good for them. Not dissimilar from most commercial human food.

Posted by angelfish (# 8884) on :

I don't know about New Zealand but if somebody would like to eradicate the cat that shits on my font lawn every morning, I would be grateful.
All domestic animals should be contained in tanks, paddocks or cages.

Posted by anoesis (# 14189) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Bean Sidhe:
We get exercised about anything warm and furry or feathered that is threatened, less so about poikilotherms, especially invertebrates. Too much 'environmentalism' hangs on the coat-tails of anthropomorphism.

Well, you'll be pleased to know that a coalition of environmentalists here in NZ (story here) managed to get quite a lot of airtime a few years ago in a campaign to save a species of snail from probable extinction due to open-cast mining in their (extremely restricted) habitat. Of course the mining went ahead anyway - money talks - but they were required to do quite a lot snail-gathering and snail re-homing before proceeding.

However, on the whole, I agree with you. I can never really understand why those who do marketing assume when packaging tuna, that all I need to know is that no dolphins were harmed, and that makes it all ok. I doubt it's really all that ok for the tuna, who as I understand it are mostly crushed to death. But tuna are not mammals, not cute, not playful, and don't make little chattery sounds - so who cares what happens to them, eh...

Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :

quote:
Originally posted by anoesis:

quote:
Originally posted by Bean Sidhe:
We get exercised about anything warm and furry or feathered that is threatened, less so about poikilotherms, especially invertebrates. Too much 'environmentalism' hangs on the coat-tails of anthropomorphism.
Well, you'll be pleased to know that a coalition of environmentalists here in NZ (story here) managed to get quite a lot of airtime a few years ago in a campaign to save a species of snail from probable extinction due to open-cast mining in their (extremely restricted) habitat. Of course the mining went ahead anyway - money talks - but they were required to do quite a lot snail-gathering and snail re-homing before proceeding.

However, on the whole, I agree with you. I can never really understand why those who do marketing assume when packaging tuna, that all I need to know is that no dolphins were harmed, and that makes it all ok. I doubt it's really all that ok for the tuna, who as I understand it are mostly crushed to death. But tuna are not mammals, not cute, not playful, and don't make little chattery sounds - so who cares what happens to them, eh...

Slightly different for animals hunted/reared/harvested for food, surely? I mean I think cows are cute but I still want to eat beef.

Posted by Moo (# 107) on :

If you want some light reading about cats, There is a classic thread in Limbo.

Moo

Posted by Evangeline (# 7002) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Wilfried:

quote:
Originally posted by tclune:

[ETA: Perhaps a governmental program to encourage the establishment of more Chinese restaurants in cat-rich environments could provide an innovative solution to this terrible problem.]
For the record, I am Chinese, living in a city with one of the highest concentrations of Chinese restaurants in the Western Hemisphere, and I have yet to see cat on the menu. I have traveled to various countries in Asia, and have yet seen cat served there either. And yes, I own a cat, and am quite fond of him alive, and in any case at his age, he's likely to be too stringy to be palatable. Not effective.

The insinuation that Chinese restaurants serve feral/stray cats is offensively racist.

Posted by Huia (# 3473) on :

It amazes me that Gareth Morgan, who chose to ride his motorbike through some ecologically fragile areas of Antartica, doesn't look at his own behaviour first.

The biggest danger to wildlife Aotearoa/NZ are people, followed by possums, weasles, stoats, rats and mice. None of these animals swum here by themselves, (although the rats and mice probably hitched a ride). The bird I chose as my board name was wiped out in the last 80 years because of a fashion for it's feathers after a visiting member of the royal family wore one in his hat - then everyone wanted one.

I think the problem with feral cats is likewise a human one, people who refusing to neuter cats their cats and dumping kittens. In effect Morgan is suggesting no one has a cat because of the behaviour of some.

Given the high toll that alcohol consumption causes here I'm wondering if his next suggestion might be prohibittion.

And yes, I do live with a cat, a stray who invaded my life - Georgie-Porgy fat'n'fluffy who is death to rolls of paper towels and the odd baby sparrow that falls out of it's nest.

Huia

Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on :

We feed birds and therefore have a large number , they feed off the ground as well as from hanging feeders.
We also have a cat . He has a collar and bell because has ,alas, killed birds in the past. He is kept indoors most of the time and we have learnt to let him out at selected times , usually when someone is out as well.

This has reduced the death toll so we can all, (including the cat), enjoy looking out the window at all the birds feeding just a few yards away.

Posted by Gwai (# 11076) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:

quote:
Originally posted by Wilfried:

quote:
Originally posted by tclune:

[ETA: Perhaps a governmental program to encourage the establishment of more Chinese restaurants in cat-rich environments could provide an innovative solution to this terrible problem.]
For the record, I am Chinese, living in a city with one of the highest concentrations of Chinese restaurants in the Western Hemisphere, and I have yet to see cat on the menu. I have traveled to various countries in Asia, and have yet seen cat served there either. And yes, I own a cat, and am quite fond of him alive, and in any case at his age, he's likely to be too stringy to be palatable. Not effective.
The insinuation that Chinese restaurants serve feral/stray cats is offensively racist.

I think tclune was joking.

Posted by Og: Thread Killer (# 3200) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
...The insinuation that Chinese restaurants serve feral/stray cats is offensively racist.

Meh....living in a city where the distinctions between people from East Asia go down to the provincial level, I would say more like uneducated.

People from different cultures are different. Baring a study like the one recently done on burgers in the UK, we don't really know anything but apocryphal understandings based really on eating meat that tastes different then we are used to.

I do know, that in those horrible to contemplate lifeboat situations, between me and our two boys, I would reluctantly but understandably put myself first.

And thus I can understand why some people in come cultures might consider their own hunger/economic needs first before the need of a stray cat to live.

Its not racist.

Its logic without proof.

Posted by Evangeline (# 7002) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:

quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:

quote:
Originally posted by Wilfried:

quote:
Originally posted by tclune:

[ETA: Perhaps a governmental program to encourage the establishment of more Chinese restaurants in cat-rich environments could provide an innovative solution to this terrible problem.]
For the record, I am Chinese, living in a city with one of the highest concentrations of Chinese restaurants in the Western Hemisphere, and I have yet to see cat on the menu. I have traveled to various countries in Asia, and have yet seen cat served there either. And yes, I own a cat, and am quite fond of him alive, and in any case at his age, he's likely to be too stringy to be palatable. Not effective.
The insinuation that Chinese restaurants serve feral/stray cats is offensively racist.
I think tclune was joking.

I realise he was attempting to be humorous I just didn't realise that racist jokes were ok on SOF. Glad I know.

Oh and Og, we're not talking about people eating rats, snakes or whatever because they're hungry or it is part of their traditional diet. The reference was to serving cat in chinese restaurants in western countries such as NZ which isn't the same thing at all. At a bare minimum it's illegal and unhygienic.

[ 26. January 2013, 12:19: Message edited by: Evangeline ]

Posted by Mere Nick (# 11827) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:

quote:
Originally posted by Wilfried:

quote:
Originally posted by tclune:

[ETA: Perhaps a governmental program to encourage the establishment of more Chinese restaurants in cat-rich environments could provide an innovative solution to this terrible problem.]
For the record, I am Chinese, living in a city with one of the highest concentrations of Chinese restaurants in the Western Hemisphere, and I have yet to see cat on the menu. I have traveled to various countries in Asia, and have yet seen cat served there either. And yes, I own a cat, and am quite fond of him alive, and in any case at his age, he's likely to be too stringy to be palatable. Not effective.
The insinuation that Chinese restaurants serve feral/stray cats is offensively racist.

I've eaten in three that have been busted for serving up cat meat.

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

Links for proof, Mere Nick, else I think you belong here.

Posted by Mere Nick (# 11827) on :

quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Links for proof, Mere Nick, else I think you belong here.

I've no doubt I'm more aware of what happened two miles from my office than you or Snopes ever will. I have no idea of knowing whether or not I personally ate cat meat but, if I did, it tasted fine.

Posted by Bean Sidhe (# 11823) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:

quote:
Originally posted by anoesis:

quote:
Originally posted by Bean Sidhe:
We get exercised about anything warm and furry or feathered that is threatened, less so about poikilotherms, especially invertebrates. Too much 'environmentalism' hangs on the coat-tails of anthropomorphism.
Well, you'll be pleased to know that a coalition of environmentalists here in NZ (story here) managed to get quite a lot of airtime a few years ago in a campaign to save a species of snail from probable extinction due to open-cast mining in their (extremely restricted) habitat. Of course the mining went ahead anyway - money talks - but they were required to do quite a lot snail-gathering and snail re-homing before proceeding.

However, on the whole, I agree with you. I can never really understand why those who do marketing assume when packaging tuna, that all I need to know is that no dolphins were harmed, and that makes it all ok. I doubt it's really all that ok for the tuna, who as I understand it are mostly crushed to death. But tuna are not mammals, not cute, not playful, and don't make little chattery sounds - so who cares what happens to them, eh...
Slightly different for animals hunted/reared/harvested for food, surely? I mean I think cows are cute but I still want to eat beef.

Yes, me too. But then we care more about how the furry/feathered ones are treated, hence the markets for free range chicken and eggs, and outdoor-reared pork, not to mention concern about humane killing in abertoirs, hunters being skilled enough to make a clean kill etc. As Anoesis points out, the scaly critters just get yanked out of the sea and gutted. I still eat fish, mind.

I'm a toughie about conservation. Life for wild creatures is a 24/7 war zone and always will be, though the biosphere as a whole is very resilient - it's survived asteroid strikes, holocaustic vulcanism, you name it and it would survive global warming, though radically changed and, very likely, not with our species in it. As David Attenborough said recently, we may have only 50 years before our number's up.

[ 26. January 2013, 17:15: Message edited by: Bean Sidhe ]

Posted by Soror Magna (# 9881) on :

I also have to say that the situation on islands or in ecosystems with unique fauna like Australia and New Zealand isn't comparable to what happens on the big continents. People are fortunately becoming more aware of invasive species. I can't tell you how thrilled I am about the Burmese python hunt in Florida.

According to the Fatal Light Awareness Program (FLAP) in Toronto, cats come in at #5 on the bird death list, after habitat loss, building collisions, power lines and hunting. There are many more lights and windows than there are cats.

FLAP - Who We Are

Posted by Og: Thread Killer (# 3200) on :

Hunting by humans takes more birds in this city then cats?

Like I knew a few people had nets in their back yards but still that hardly seems credible.

Posted by Bean Sidhe (# 11823) on :

Probably restaurants setting traps on the roof. Could you tell pigeon from pheasant?

Posted by Arminian (# 16607) on :

quote:
We feed birds and therefore have a large number , they feed off the ground as well as from hanging feeders.
We also have a cat . He has a collar and bell because has ,alas, killed birds in the past. He is kept indoors most of the time and we have learnt to let him out at selected times , usually when someone is out as well.

This has reduced the death toll so we can all, (including the cat), enjoy looking out the window at all the birds feeding just a few yards away.

Same here. By putting the feeders where the cat can be seen, it has only managed to catch one bird in three years. We also have some ground feeding birds who are doing just fine.

I'd love to know if the 'research' on cats killing birds took account of
a) cats with bells on their collars,
b) households who feed birds
c) if the research was done by some grumpy git who doesn't like cats shitting in their garden... (our cat has its own litter tray and doesn't do much of that either !).

Posted by Sergius-Melli (# 17462) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Bean Sidhe:
Probably restaurants setting traps on the roof. Could you tell pigeon from pheasant?

Yes - especially if it is city pidgeon rather than decently fed wood pidgeon!

Talking about cats attacking birds, my rabbit was out for his morning constitutional in the garden today, and when I turned around to check on him he was charging at a bird that had settled infront of his summer house...

I wonder if someone will conduct a study of the impact of bunnies on bird populations...

In news actually related to this thread...

this decision by the UK government roughly fits in with what you are discussing.

Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :

And this fits in exactly.

Posted by sophs (# 2296) on :

Of course, if every cat owner was responsible, or if more cat rescue charities spent the time and money they don't really have on neutering and finding homes for stray and feral cats this wouldn't be as large a problem.

We're lucky in our area, the branch of cats protection has a trap neuter release program for feral and stray cats, they are overwhelmed by the cats they have to help, luckily the vets are awesome and take some of the slack but it's still a huge problem.

Posted by Huia (# 3473) on :

You know the more I think about this the more I am convinced Gareth Morgan targetted the wrong species. Zero human population growth would do more for the birdlife here than merely getting rid of cats. [Razz]

Huia

Posted by Og: Thread Killer (# 3200) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
And this fits in exactly.

Actually looked into that study a bit. Found the actual data

here.

They seem to have chosen a mighty weird place to call some things outliers and others not - 370 animals a year.

That and I note that its only the stomach surveys that come close to the numbers quoted.

And I'm still trying to figure out how they can not accept a study where the findings were less then a months worth of detail, and how anybody can do a stomach check on a cat for that long.

Posted by Soror Magna (# 9881) on :

quote:
Average proportion of total bird mortality caused by cat
predation for individual species:
Ring-necked Pheasant (Phasianus colchicus) 0.160 1

Ring-necked pheasant isn't even a native species in North America, and it is rased commercially as well as by hobbyists, and there are lots of feral populations. Those aren't wildlife; they're chickens that went over the wall.

I think that in areas of urban-wild interface and vulnerable ecologies, a very strong case can be made for keeping most cats AND dogs indoors. I think fussing about cats killing birds in urban areas is a just another way of ignoring the main issue affecting ALL non-human living things everywhere: human settlement destroys habitats.

ETA: The same study is now being reported on CBC, accompanied by a photo of a cat with a Rock Pigeon ... another introduced domesticated feral species. [Roll Eyes]

Leash and licence all house cats, say B.C. wildlife groups

Now, I'm technically a member of that coalition. We have also been campaigning for years for a steady-state economic policy, but you don't see that in the news.

[ 30. January 2013, 19:22: Message edited by: Soror Magna ]

Posted by Hairy Biker (# 12086) on :

quote:
Originally posted by sophs:

We're lucky in our area, the branch of cats protection has a trap neuter release program for feral and stray cats, they are overwhelmed by the cats they have to help, luckily the vets are awesome and take some of the slack but it's still a huge problem.

But what's wrong with a lethal injection? Why go releasing an animal into the wild when no one wants it and it's damaging the environment (and it can't even reproduce, so has no biological reason to exist anyway)? You wouldn't do it with a rat, so why do cats get special treatment?

Posted by tclune (# 7959) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Hairy Biker:
You wouldn't do it with a rat, so why do cats get special treatment?

When's the last time you got a "cute rat" video forwarded to you?

--Tom Clune

Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Arminian:
By putting the feeders where the cat can be seen, it has only managed to catch one bird in three years.

One bird that you know about. The kittycam footage studied at the University of Georgia showed that those cats were killing a lot of wildlife that their owners never saw.

Posted by Lucia (# 15201) on :

quote:
Originally posted by tclune:

quote:
Originally posted by Hairy Biker:
You wouldn't do it with a rat, so why do cats get special treatment?
When's the last time you got a "cute rat" video forwarded to you?

--Tom Clune

Here you go!

Posted by Soror Magna (# 9881) on :

One big reason why I don't buy the claims of that study is that almost ALL bird species' populations are declining, including birds that rarely or never come into contact with domestic cats, or that are too large to be prey.

The Audobon Society has a list of Top 20 Common Birds in Decline

Now, these are not rare or endangered birds, and these are not birds endemic to islands. These are common North American birds that have experienced dramatic population losses over the last 50 years:

quote:
Since 1967 the average population of the common birds in steepest decline has fallen by 68 percent; some individual species nose-dived as much as 80 percent. All 20 birds on the national Common Birds in Decline list lost at least half their populations in just four decades.

I didn't read all the conservation accounts, but it's pretty obvious that some of those species aren't prey for cats. A cat can easily catch an Evening Grosbeak or Common Grackle in the backyard, but not a Greater Scaup or a Little Blue Heron, and yet they are all diminishing in numbers.

What are the real factors affecting bird population (as opposed to the factors that get media attention and racist jokes)? Let's see:

quote:
American Bittern
The Canadian population of the American Bittern appears to be stable. However, in the United States, the situation is very different. The decline of this species may have started as early as the 1890s in some states. Many of the large expanses of shallow marsh that the bittern requires have been lost. A significant portion of the wetlands that remain have been degraded, impacting food resources, nest sites, and in some cases, the bird itself. Agricultural pesticides, acid rain, and silt are probably the main contaminants of these wetlands. The preservation of large, healthy, freshwater marshes is essential to the conservation of this species. Such wetlands must be maintained in both the bird's summer and the winter ranges. In addition, the secretive American Bittern needs to be better studied. Much is still unknown about its biology and behavior.

quote:
Whip-poor-will
•Threats: Fire suppression in eastern deciduous forests is a major cause of habitat loss. These forests are also increasingly becoming fragmented by roads and development, and gypsy moth control programs or other forest spraying programs have decreased food supplies in some areas.

•Outlook: Habitat for this species is increasingly scarce. The fate of this species and others that prefer open woodlands depends on deliberate management to create and maintain habitat.

quote:
Boreal Chickadee
•Threats: The Boreal Chickadee is endemic to the spruce-fir forests of the Boreal Zone, and is therefore tied to the fate of the Boreal. Major threats in the Boreal Forest are excessive logging, drilling, mining, and global warming. Boreal Chickadees respond favorably to spruce budworm outbreaks unless control activities against spruce budworm or other pests in spruce-fir forests overwhelm the food supply represented by those insects.

•Outlook: A brighter future for the Boreal Chickadee will depend upon better industrial practices for logging, mining, and drilling, creating more protected areas within the boreal forest, and curbing the effects of global warming.

Climate change. Ships and harbours. Pesticides. Draining and filling wetlands. Farming and ranching. Logging. Mining and drilling. Acid rain. Roads, pipelines, power lines, and other rights-of-way. Collisions with structures and vehicles. Fire suppression. Collisions with aircraft. Human settlement. The Great Pacific Garbage Patch. Cats. Cats??? Really?

The last 50 years in North America have seen unprecedented human and economic expansion, accompanied by the rise of the car and a culture of consumerism, planned obsolescence, disposables, and greenwashing, such as blaming cats for all of this. Tonight I'll let the cat out and tomorrow I'll go birding.

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

This is much the same reasoning global warming deniers use.

1. Cats are a human caused issue.
2. The initial reference was to New Zealand where the impact of cats is much more directly evident.
3. Even should other factors be more to blame, this does not then mean lesser factors are unimportant.
However, cats are merely illustrative of what we humans do to the environment and how we will make excuses to keep our comforts at the expense of anything else.

Posted by Soror Magna (# 9881) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Hairy Biker:
But what's wrong with a lethal injection? ... You wouldn't do it with a rat, so why do cats get special treatment?

Cats are domesticated animals. If a horse or cow or sheep happened to wander through town, we wouldn't kill it. We usually assume domesticated animals are *someone's* property, and if it is lost, we try to return it to the owner or find it another home.

I do agree that maintaining colonies of feral cats is stupid, even in urban areas. It's bad for everyone, including the cats. They should be euthanized if they cannot be adopted, just like any other abandoned domestic animal.

I think we have a moral responsibility to control and care for animals that we have domesticated, and not just toss them like used tissues when we don't know what to do with them.

@ lilBuddha, I'm personally concerned with the North American situation, as that is where I live, and I'm challenging the claim that cats are the leading human cause of bird deaths in North America. I have already said that cats should be indoors on islands and in interface habitats everywhere. As a constant advocate for conservation, I'm a little bit surprised and disappointed to be lumped in with the climate deniers.

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

Perhaps that was an overstatement. My point is every added cause of the reduction of the threatening of a species is bad. Even those who recognise the general concept tend to have exceptions.
I think you likely do not belong with the deniers.

To reiterate: Cats, even in areas where they are a less significant problem, are emblematic of the larger problem. We need to let go some of our comforts before we have no more available.

Posted by Hairy Biker (# 12086) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
Cats are domesticated animals.

I wouldn't call an animal that shits on my lawn "domesticated". Especially when that waste product is likely to infect my children with toxoplasma

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