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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Paul's sailing-influenced concept of God?
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Perhaps off that during a weekend of skiing at -30°C we should have been talking about Paul. But more logically, this is at least influenced by the fact that after 20+ years of no sailing, we did get an old fixer-upper sailboat.
Sailing the Mediterranean, Paul encountered many different groups of people, with different languages, cultures and gods. His trips and voyages were in the company of at least some varied non-Jews and non-Christians. It seemed to us, that he was the first of the people from the Judeo-Christian tradition** to take to sea, all the other images we have are farmers, shepherds, people of the desert. You possess a sailboat, and not the sea or ocean. But you can possess the land and all the things in it. Unlike Jews then, who were tied to the land, the explorer Paul was tied only to the boat, and only for the travel.
I'm really wondering here about the influence of being land based, Promise Land based, and not being based at all the same way if you're at sea.
** didn't know what to call it, it would not have been "Judeo-Christian" in Paul's time I don't think.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
It doesn't see likely to me that Paul spent enough time at sea for sailing to be his dominant symbol of his relationship with God. We see a few voyages in the NT, but that's about it.
On the other hand, there are plenty of sailing scenes in the Gospels, and more than one of the apostles were fishermen. Furthermore, Galilee was an ethnically diverse region, so neither Jesus nor the apostles were likely to have had the insular mindset you describe.
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Bostonman
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# 17108
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
On the other hand, there are plenty of sailing scenes in the Gospels, and more than one of the apostles were fishermen.
Haha seriously, exactly what I was thinking.
If I'm recalling correctly... Simon Peter and Andrew were fishermen. Zebedee was a fisherman, so James and John probably were as well. Matthew was a tax collector. We don't get professions for the rest.
So they're almost entirely boat people.
ETA: I mean, of course, that the ones whose professions we know are almost entirely boat people. The other ones could be whatever.
[ 28. January 2013, 03:17: Message edited by: Bostonman ]
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Latchkey Kid
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# 12444
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Posted
I understand that the stories of Jesus and the disciples in boats on the Sea of Galilee are also pictures of the church as the boat and the sea as the world they are in, and presumably Jesus helping Peter walk on water, the disciples catching fish, Jesus calming the storm for the disciples, and even Jesus giving the disciples a feast on the beach all contribute to the Gospels' concepts of God, the church and the world.
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'You must never give way for an answer. An answer is always the stretch of road that's behind you. Only a question can point the way forward.'
Mika; in Hello? Is Anybody There?, Jostein Gaardner
Posts: 2592 | From: The wizardest little town in Oz | Registered: Mar 2007
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Latchkey Kid
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Posted
As to being land based, could it not also be that the people that Jesus and the Gospel writers were addressing were also land based, so those images and metaphors are appropriate.
Our mistake is that we think the images and metaphors are sacred in their own right, and we are reluctant to re-express them in metaphors for the industrial and information world. We fail to learn from the four Gospel writers that it is appropriate to re-express the Gospel in the language of our audience, but want them to understand about agriculture, animal husbandry, and the Jewish sacrificial system as a prerequisite.
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'You must never give way for an answer. An answer is always the stretch of road that's behind you. Only a question can point the way forward.'
Mika; in Hello? Is Anybody There?, Jostein Gaardner
Posts: 2592 | From: The wizardest little town in Oz | Registered: Mar 2007
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blackbeard
Ship's Pirate
# 10848
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Posted
Well now, the Sea of Galilee is actually only a lake, and a not especially big lake at that. Paul's voyages would have taken him out of sight of land, which tends to put a different perspective on things, especially in a ship with no charts and none of the navigational kit we expect now (apart from a lead and line for sounding); not even a compass. Going by the deceptive appearance of the coast (if visible), and the sun, and stars (if visible), and (a very few) lighthouses; dependent on the wind (in the Med, very fickle, needed local knowledge, and tended to be either not enough or FAR too much!), and on the competence of the crew ... and it was (evidently) a dangerous business.
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Thanks for the insights and thoughts about fishing. Perhaps the thing then is more general than Paul and his sailing voyages, and has to do with "people of the water" - NT, and "people of the land" - OT? Or maybe I'm trying to be a little too deep about some shallow thoughts?
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
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marzipan
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# 9442
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Posted
there are boats in the OT though - Noah and Jonah spring to mind!
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formerly cheesymarzipan.
Now containing 50% less cheese
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blackbeard
Ship's Pirate
# 10848
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cheesymarzipan:
there are boats in the OT though - Noah and Jonah spring to mind!
Well, yes, but the Ark wasn't much of a boat, more a floating platform and I don't recall that Noah did much navigation. In fact he ran aground on a mountain. He did have a useful idea on how to find out if he was near land.
Jonah was, so to speak, a bit all at sea, and wasn't my idea of an ideal crew.
Solomon built a navy but it was wrecked. After that he left it to (presumably) Phoenicians who Understood that kind of thing.
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iamchristianhearmeroar
Shipmate
# 15483
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Posted
I think no prophet is right in that there seems to have been a movement away from the OT fixation on "the land" in the early church. I'm not sure I'd focus on Paul, though, but Jesus as instigating this. NT Wright suggests that Jesus' calls to his followers to give up all they possessed referred at the time in a large part to their land, and by extension THE land.
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My blog: http://alastairnewman.wordpress.com/
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blackbeard
Ship's Pirate
# 10848
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
Thanks for the insights and thoughts about fishing. Perhaps the thing then is more general than Paul and his sailing voyages, and has to do with "people of the water" - NT, and "people of the land" - OT? Or maybe I'm trying to be a little too deep about some shallow thoughts?
I think you may have something here. The Hebrews were very much NOT into things maritime and were, as you say, people of the land. The Greeks, who were widely scattered around the Eastern Med including islands, were very much into things maritime, both for trading and for war; it was part of their culture. The Romans, not initially seafarers, learned (from the Greeks presumably), again for trading (=money) and war. So a first-century Greek/Roman society would be very familiar with ships and their use (though the only reference I can find apart from Paul's voyages is in the letter of James, where it is assumed that addressees would know how a ship is steered).
It's a bit like the English, whose language is full of nautical references even if not everyone recognises this. Well, by and large. How much it influences our thought, I wouldn't like to say ...
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Pomona
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# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by blackbeard:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
Thanks for the insights and thoughts about fishing. Perhaps the thing then is more general than Paul and his sailing voyages, and has to do with "people of the water" - NT, and "people of the land" - OT? Or maybe I'm trying to be a little too deep about some shallow thoughts?
I think you may have something here. The Hebrews were very much NOT into things maritime and were, as you say, people of the land. The Greeks, who were widely scattered around the Eastern Med including islands, were very much into things maritime, both for trading and for war; it was part of their culture. The Romans, not initially seafarers, learned (from the Greeks presumably), again for trading (=money) and war. So a first-century Greek/Roman society would be very familiar with ships and their use (though the only reference I can find apart from Paul's voyages is in the letter of James, where it is assumed that addressees would know how a ship is steered).
It's a bit like the English, whose language is full of nautical references even if not everyone recognises this. Well, by and large. How much it influences our thought, I wouldn't like to say ...
These are great points and very interesting. It is certainly interesting to look at the NT canon and go from sea-faring Paul to 'there will be no sea' John in Revelation*!
*I am aware of the sea representing chaos to the Hebrews and hence the lack of sea = lack of chaos.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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blackbeard
Ship's Pirate
# 10848
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Posted
I can only assume that the Hebrews somehow got a bit close to Portland Race.
Anyway. I have always assumed that John's problem was that he was imprisoned in a forced-labour camp on the island of Patmos; the sea was to him like the walls of a prison. Understandable that he didn't like sea.
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
These are great points and very interesting. It is certainly interesting to look at the NT canon and go from sea-faring Paul to 'there will be no sea' John in Revelation*!
*I am aware of the sea representing chaos to the Hebrews and hence the lack of sea = lack of chaos.
So if I return to Paul, his job was to bring order to the chaotic Greeks? Interesting. I'm going to be lazy, but also impressionistically thematic, and go with my brain's recall versus re-reading Acts right now. Paul got into trouble on his voyages when he tried to be too controlling of the untameable. The sea or people.
The metaphor of sea as chaos is really interesting. I'm also thinking of the idea of spirit as a breath or wind. Might the metaphor of being at sea and blown by the wind have some NT and OT reference? I'm also now thinking of the hymn (which I dislike for personal reasons of association): "I Feel the Winds of God Today". It contains the lines:
quote:
I feel the winds of God today - Ralph Vaughn Williams' music, words are public domain.
I feel the winds of God today
Today my sail I lift
Though heavy, oft with drenching spray
And torn with many a rift
If hope but light the water's crest
And Christ my bark will use
I'll seek the seas at His behest
And brave another cruise.
[ 28. January 2013, 14:35: Message edited by: no prophet ]
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
This thread is based on a false premise about the ancient Hebrews being landlubbers. In fact, Bethlehem was a port town!
[ 28. January 2013, 14:38: Message edited by: Stetson ]
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Stetson
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# 9597
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Posted
This group, which seems to be a schism from the Herbert Armstrong church(they've picked up his habits of BOLD LETTERING and dubious word connections), claims that the tribe of Dan were a sea-faring people. I saw a couple of other references to that on the internet.
That website also seems to have a fairly low opinion of the tribe of Dan. Says that they were the ancestors of the Irish, who are excessively superstitious and enslaved by Catholicism. Also says the tribe is excluded from the 144 000 of Revelation.
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churchgeek
Have candles, will pray
# 5557
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Posted
I wouldn't make too much of the land/sea thing, myself.
In the NT, the Church is simply becoming mobile, like the Jewish people already were becoming: there was a huge Jewish diaspora throughout the Greek-speaking Roman world, which is why the Septuagint was translated, and why the Apocrypha was written in Greek.
Traveling by sea was a major way of being mobile at the time, since the Roman Empire ringed the Mediterranean. But people also traveled by land, just as the Hebrew people had before settling in the Promised Land.
Jesus does, in fact, tell his disciples to give up the Promised Land and "go into all the world" to preach; presumably, he assumes they will go by whatever means they have at their disposal, whether ships or horses or their own two feet.
I think Paul is influenced less by the sea itself (he never makes direct references to the sea in his imagery of God, does he?) than by that seeming rootlessness. So he becomes rooted in God. Precisely how he's traveling, I think, matters less than the fact that he is, that he has no home, really, and relies on the hospitality of those to and with whom he ministers. The same was true of Jesus, and many of his followers.
Jesus did, after all, ask some of his disciples, when he called them, to leave their fishing nets to follow him. You can be rooted in the sea if it's your profession or if a port is your home. Jesus and his disciples, in fact, roamed the land, and the Promised Land at that, but that didn't make them any less homeless than Paul was.
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I reserve the right to change my mind.
My article on the Virgin of Vladimir
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churchgeek
Have candles, will pray
# 5557
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
This group, which seems to be a schism from the Herbert Armstrong church(they've picked up his habits of BOLD LETTERING and dubious word connections), claims that the tribe of Dan were a sea-faring people. I saw a couple of other references to that on the internet.
That website also seems to have a fairly low opinion of the tribe of Dan. Says that they were the ancestors of the Irish, who are excessively superstitious and enslaved by Catholicism. Also says the tribe is excluded from the 144 000 of Revelation.
quote:
...Duns-more, which means "MORE DANS."
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
Thank you for that amusing read.
/tangent
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I reserve the right to change my mind.
My article on the Virgin of Vladimir
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by churchgeek:
I think Paul is influenced less by the sea itself (he never makes direct references to the sea in his imagery of God, does he?) than by that seeming rootlessness. So he becomes rooted in God. Precisely how he's traveling, I think, matters less than the fact that he is, that he has no home, really, and relies on the hospitality of those to and with whom he ministers. The same was true of Jesus, and many of his followers.
Jesus did, after all, ask some of his disciples, when he called them, to leave their fishing nets to follow him. You can be rooted in the sea if it's your profession or if a port is your home. Jesus and his disciples, in fact, roamed the land, and the Promised Land at that, but that didn't make them any less homeless than Paul was.
It's more than being homeless, it is being in a mobile home that you only partly control. I don't know that I can think of a land analogy.
It's quite a different thing to want to go to a specific place and because of the wind, you can't. Or you set out to go somewhere, and the wind changes and you go elsewhere. Or you are becalmed, storm stayed or ship wrecked. Such experiences would seem to prompt prayers from even the faithless.
I'm thinking of our 2nd maiden voyage in our little 15 foot (she started to sink on the first one, and I repaired a 12" gash that poured water between the hulls). We happily tacked down the lake. But the wind direction was shift when we got there in 2 hours, and it took 4½ to get back with 3× more tacking. I just wonder, what did Paul go through when the probably mostly pagan crew prayed to their gods as they fought to get their less well rigged boats that likely did not tack beyond 90° to the wind?
Jesus of course, could just get out and walk if he'd been in a boat that couldn't get where he wanted. Instead of walking, we had an auxiliary motor, but we thought that was cheating at least on a first trip.
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
It's more than being homeless, it is being in a mobile home that you only partly control. I don't know that I can think of a land analogy.
It's quite a different thing to want to go to a specific place and because of the wind, you can't. Or you set out to go somewhere, and the wind changes and you go elsewhere. Or you are becalmed, storm stayed or ship wrecked. Such experiences would seem to prompt prayers from even the faithless.
It has to be admitted that Paul was, as far as we can tell, the only major character in the New Testament to have gone through a shipwreck on the high seas. So yes, that would be an experience pretty different from almost everyone else we read about in the NT(and most of the OT for that matter).
How big a role that would have played in his theological and literary development, I don't know. Acts and the Letters are parts of the NT that I generally avoid reading.
I agree with churchgeek that seeing the world by boat would probably be not much different that seeing it by land. One possible difference would be if sea travel in those days was quicker than land travel(I'm guessing it was, as it is now, but I really don't know). If indeed boats got you places faster than caravan, Paul might have been seeing the world at a much quicker pace than his land-based contemporaries. Sorta like how flying from New York to LA today is a much different experience than driving between the two cities.
On the other hand, those travelling by land would have had to pass through a greater variety of geographical and cultural spaces than Paul would have, so there's that to factor in as well.
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
There is apparently a Feast Of St. Paul's Shipwreck held every year in Malta. From the video, though, they don't seem to be emphasizing the maritime aspects of the event, more the miracles he performed once on land.
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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blackbeard
Ship's Pirate
# 10848
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
.... I agree with churchgeek that seeing the world by boat would probably be not much different that seeing it by land. One possible difference would be if sea travel in those days was quicker than land travel(I'm guessing it was, as it is now, but I really don't know). If indeed boats got you places faster than caravan, Paul might have been seeing the world at a much quicker pace than his land-based contemporaries. ....
Not so much quicker or slower, I suspect, as unpredictable. With a fair wind maybe 200 miles in 24 hours might be possible (though sailors of antiquity hated sailing at night, but presumably it was sometimes unavoidable); against maybe 20 on foot on land. But if becalmed, the ship doesn't move at all (unless it's a galley with oars); and in a contrary wind, it could be blown back (the ability to make to windward in ships of antiquity, and indeed with more recent commercial sailing ships, wasn't impressive).
Apart from the unpredictability, there's a sharp contrast between being on land, making ready to depart, and being at sea (especially if out of sight of land). If you are crew, there's always something needing doing; if you are a passenger there's little to do apart from sitting and thinking (or being horribly sea sick). You look all around, and all you can see is ... sea, maybe with distant mountains or maybe not. On seeing land again, everything changes, there's excitement on preparing to enter a port (not least, the question "Are we where we think we are?" A very important question in a ship with no charts, no compass and no log). And there could be (I assume) an abrupt culture change between the port you left a few days ago, and the one you have now arrived at.
So, a very different experience from travel on land. Many have found it a spiritual experience, it's certainly very different from a land-based existence. But, as you say, there is no direct evidence of an effect on Paul's theology.
Posts: 823 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Dec 2005
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MentisInDeum
Apprentice
# 16734
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
It doesn't see likely to me that Paul spent enough time at sea for sailing to be his dominant symbol of his relationship with God. We see a few voyages in the NT, but that's about it.
On the other hand, there are plenty of sailing scenes in the Gospels, and more than one of the apostles were fishermen. Furthermore, Galilee was an ethnically diverse region, so neither Jesus nor the apostles were likely to have had the insular mindset you describe.
While Zach has clearly been touched by the Great Satan, he has a good point. Paul does however have a sailing scene in Acts, though it is limited for a reason. If we look at the language we can see that there is a shift into first person plural. The reason is that the ancient sea epic was a story type of the period. It was the exciting epic which represented the unknown chaotic forces, the dangers of the world beyond and was used to pull an audience in. As soon as Paul crashes the language changes back and the the audience is led on another story. The point isn't to identify Paul with the sea, but to use the story to draw people in.
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"I so love the sound of "Colonel Angus" but I guess I could give Anal Angus a try"
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
For the record, MentisinDeum is my coworker, whom I have been telling to post on the SoF, and the board must understand that the Great Satan thing is a joke. ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif)
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
It is certainly interesting to look at the NT canon and go from sea-faring Paul to 'there will be no sea' John in Revelation*!
There is a great Kipling poem on this theme.
http://www.bartleby.com/246/1132.html
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
For some reason, there was an outpouring of popular hymns with maritime themes during the nineteenth century.
Throw Out The Lifeline, Let The Lower Lights Be Burning, Pull For The Shore Sailor, Will Your Anchor Hold? and Ship Ahoy are just a few I can think of off the top of my head.
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Custard
Shipmate
# 5402
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by blackbeard:
Well now, the Sea of Galilee is actually only a lake, and a not especially big lake at that.
Well, you say that, but it's a lot bigger than anything in England, and only a shade smaller than Loch Neagh but a lot more sea-like. In the middle of the lake, you're 4 miles from the shore, which is a pretty long way if there's a storm or something. Yes, it's tiny compared to the Med, but it's still decent-sized.
The gospel writers didn't have a problem with calling it a sea rather than a lake, because that's what the locals called it.
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Stamp thine image in its place.
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
You can get very impressive windstorms on a good-sized lake. I was once caught in a windstorm on Lake George, which is much smaller than the Sea of Galilee.
It was a hair-raising experience.
Moo
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See you later, alligator.
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by blackbeard:
With a fair wind maybe 200 miles in 24 hours might be possible (though sailors of antiquity hated sailing at night, but presumably it was sometimes unavoidable); against maybe 20 on foot on land. But if becalmed, the ship doesn't move at all (unless it's a galley with oars); and in a contrary wind, it could be blown back (the ability to make to windward in ships of antiquity, and indeed with more recent commercial sailing ships, wasn't impressive).
As a bit of a tangent, I recently came across this blog post, which links to a tool that gives you travel times between cities in the ancient world under various constraints.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
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