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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Harry Potter, now the dust has settled
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
Seeing as it’s now almost 2 years since the last film and nearly 5 years since the last book, I thought it would be nice to have a thread about the longer lasting views and opinions on the Harry Potter series.
I’ve raised it in Purgatory instead of Heaven because my position is that they are based on Christus Victor. So take your pick of boards; Heaven? Keryg? Dead Horses? I’ll leave that call to the Hosts in the fullness of time.
On to the main premise then…
I think the series taken as a whole is an allegory of Christ’s ministry, with the Passion and Resurection given centre-stage.
I can certainly map HP characters and organisations to NT equivalents. Let start with Harry as Christ of course. Ron would be John – the beloved disciple – who followed Christ in faith. Hermione? I’m torn as to a Mary, either Mother or Magdelene.
Dumbledore? God the Father and possibly The Spirit? A bit hard that one to map, but that’s my view.
Voldemort is of course sin, death, Satan, the fallen one. Cast from Heaven to the Hell of being outside, the lonely one. The orphan rejected by all including his parents, and who tempts Harry/Christ into joining him, and then finally killing him.
The Order of the Phoenix and the DA are the Apostles. Those closest to Harry, and who protect him, help him, and work in His name.
The Ministry? This is the Pharisee’s, the Holy ones who interpret the Law and enforce the Law, in the name of the Minister… Herod perhaps?
We even have a John the Baptist. The isolated wanderer, who preaches of the one to come who will defeat death and sin… Sybil Trellawny!
Books one through to six represent Harry’s/Christ’s ministry. The wandering and preaching, the healing, the miracles. But seven is where it all becomes clear to me.
In seven we have the recognition that Harry is the eighth Horcrux and must die to defeat Voldemort. We have the moment of doubt in the Garden of Gethsemene/Forbidden Forest, when he appeals to his dead parents to be with him because he doesn’t think he can go through with it. He asks to have the cup taken from his lips. But he does face Voldemort, as Christ faces sin and death, in the form of people driven by Satan. Both die. Christ by crucifixion, Harry by the Avada Kadavra curse.
This is where I’m convinced we move firmly into the Christus Victor model of the Atonement. Harry “wakes” in Kings Cross, where the eighth Horcrux lies dying under the seats. He goes back to his Earthly life and is resurrected. Christ, well we don’t truly know where he went after death, but I’m convinced it was to battle and defeat sin and death. He is then returned to his Earthly life and is resurrected.
Christ extends his ministry through the apostles and demands that they go out into the world to make it better. Harry finally defeats Voldemort after his resurrection, and the rest of the wizarding world goes off to do good in the muggle world.
No wonder the fundamentalist, con-evo, PSA advocates hated them! There they were, trying to raise up a new generation of Penal Substitution Atonement loving little con-evo’s, and along comes this Scottish anti-Christ peddling a wonderful explanation of Christus Victor to their children! Popery even!
Anyway, I’m sure opinions will vary, but I though now the dust had settled, it might be nice to re-evaluate the theological issues in the Harry Potter series. Over to the Ship!
[ 06. February 2013, 14:56: Message edited by: Ancient Mariner ]
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
Pretty sure Harry was the 7th Horcrux, not the 8th.
I'm not convinced with HP as allegory, but if we go with it for now I'd say that Ron has more in common with Peter, being a bit daft at times and ultimately chickening out when the going got tough, before returning. If we're going to cast John the Baptist, surely that would be Dumbledore? Dumbledore repeatedly challenged the authorities, and was far from all knowing or all powerful.
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
Pretty sure Harry was the 7th Horcrux, not the 8th.
I'm not convinced with HP as allegory, but if we go with it for now I'd say that Ron has more in common with Peter, being a bit daft at times and ultimately chickening out when the going got tough, before returning. If we're going to cast John the Baptist, surely that would be Dumbledore? Dumbledore repeatedly challenged the authorities, and was far from all knowing or all powerful.
Fair point on the Horcrux count. Harry was the 8th piece of soul.
Dumbledore as John the Baptist? Well, yes it does fit, as he was killed for "sport". Okay, I can go with that, but given the support and advice Dumbledoor gives before death, and even afterwards as the painting and in the pensieve memories, I'm not quite ready to give up the Father-like analogy. Perhaps an amalgam of the two would work. Maybe JKR thought the efficiency worked better that way.
That still leaves Trellawny as a partial John the Baptist though, given the predictions; "There is one coming who has power that the dark lord knows not" etc.
[ 03. February 2013, 15:20: Message edited by: deano ]
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
That would make Trelawney more Simeon than John the Baptist. Trelawney makes a prophecy, but Dumbledore "prepares the way".
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
I don't think it fits quite as neatly as you lay out deano (and we must remember that it is written by a non-Christian), but the points about prophecy are interesting and an aspect of the story I hadn't thought about before in relation to the Gospel.
I am gratified to see the nonsense about the magic in it die down though, or at least mostly - the films are banned from our uni CU's weekend away/movie nights ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
we must remember that it is written by a non-Christian
*clears throat*
Jade, I think you may well be mistaken on this. I understand JKR is a communicant in the Church of Scotland.
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Forward the New Republic
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
and we must remember that it is written by a non-Christian
JK Rowling is a Christian. She's a Presbytarian in the Church of Scotland.
Perhaps if this thread bears fruit, you can use it to point out that HP reinforces the Gospel! They may well see the films in a better light if you can debate the points.
[ 03. February 2013, 15:58: Message edited by: deano ]
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
She has apparently changed her position since the interview I watched of her saying she thought she believed in God, but that was it. I stand corrected!
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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hilaryg
Shipmate
# 11690
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
I don't think it fits quite as neatly as you lay out deano (and we must remember that it is written by a non-Christian)
JK Rowling self identifies as a Christian and is a member of the Church of Scotland.
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
Or she could be like a bunch of people on the Ship- likes church, believes in God, and is still pondering the other details.
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
I found this bit on her Wiki page: quote:
Over the years, some religious people have decried Rowling's books for supposedly promoting witchcraft; however, Rowling identifies as a Christian. She attended a Church of Scotland congregation while writing Harry Potter and her eldest daughter, Jessica, was baptised there.[182] "I go to church myself", she says, "I don't take any responsibility for the lunatic fringes of my own religion."[183] She once said, "I believe in God, not magic."[184] Early on she felt that if readers knew of her Christian beliefs they would be able to "guess what is coming in the books."
That last bit seems pertinent to this discussion. Also in that part of the article she admits to struggling with her beliefs. She sounds like a prime candidate for the Ship all right. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
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Noodlehead
Shipmate
# 9600
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Posted
I saw an interview around the time the last book came out where she confirmed that she was a Christian. Asked why she didn't bring it up to counter all the crazy witchcraft allegations, she said something along the lines that she thought that if people knew she was a Christian, it would have been too easy to guess how she was intending to end the story.
ETA Sorry - cross post!
[ 03. February 2013, 16:11: Message edited by: Noodlehead ]
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If you can doubt at points where other people find no impulse to doubt, you are making progress. - Zhuangzi
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
Or she could be like a bunch of people on the Ship- likes church, believes in God, and is still pondering the other details.
Yes. I think the novels were an outworking of that. A very imaginative way of seeing if her thoughts on faith worked out!
I'm a fanboy as you may well have guessed!
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
I think - putting on my Author hat for a moment - that some of the criticism aimed at her has made her wary of self-identifying as a "Christian writer". And frankly, I can't blame her.
No one's going to mistake the stuff I write for Christian fiction, just because. But for things that are written for children, that are also wildly popular and good books to boot (I have my own criticisms, mainly about structure and pacing - but not the plot) - a certain subset of evangelical Christian (sorry, but it's you again) were almost compelled to attack both the books and her.
To the OP, I think that it's a mistake to try and identify any given character with a biblical analogue. The reason that the characters resonate is that many of them are archetypes, and characters in the Bible are also archetypes. But conflating the two involves too much shoe-horning for my liking.
Given a bit more distance, I think they stand a good chance of becoming the next generation's Narnia. And I'd certainly prefer my grandkids to read Potter than, say, Twilight.
Perhaps JKR can join me and Francis Spufford in our Christian-Marxist writers' cabal...
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
She has apparently changed her position since the interview I watched of her saying she thought she believed in God, but that was it. I stand corrected!
I believe at least one shipmate remembers when Jo Rowling was their parish secretary, before the book signing tours became too time-consuming.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
Seeing as it’s now almost 2 years since the last film and nearly 5 years since the last book, I thought it would be nice to have a thread about the longer lasting views and opinions on the Harry Potter series.
They are a well written series of children's books with crossover appeal to adults. In the fantasy genre.
Oh, right, you mean the religious nonsense.
ISTM, it is neither demonic nor allegorical, simply entertainment. This cigar is not a penis, sorry.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
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Jay-Emm
Shipmate
# 11411
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
To the OP, I think that it's a mistake to try and identify any given character with a biblical analogue. The reason that the characters resonate is that many of them are archetypes, and characters in the Bible are also archetypes. But conflating the two involves too much shoe-horning for my liking.
Even Narnia, I feel it's a bit of a mistake. And Narnia has to be as close as you can get.
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The Rogue
Shipmate
# 2275
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Posted
I have always viewed the books as being decent novels. It has never interested me to look for any allegory in them, Biblical or otherwise.
The problem with such allegory that is that every detail of each character's actions and personality has to be considered in the light of the Biblical character they are supposed to represent and if any discrepancies arise they confuse. Allegory can therefore warp our views of the original character.
Besides, why look for Biblical meaning in the books when you can look for Biblical meaning in the Bible?
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If everyone starts thinking outside the box does outside the box come back inside?
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
And I'd certainly prefer my grandkids to read Potter than, say, Twilight.
Twilight is infinitely worse than Harry Potter can be regardless of intent. Twilight is aimed at a vulnerable age group and perpetuates a rubbish view of relationships.
Harry Potter is just fun.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Drifting Star
Drifting against the wind
# 12799
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Posted
There is a theme of redemption - JK Rowling confirmed this herself. There is also a strong theme of the power of a sacrifice made through love.
I think it's inevitable that when a Christian writes on these themes there will be a discernable correlation with Christ's sacrifice, but I'm reluctant to try and pin down direct equivalents. Maybe it's more helpful to recognise significant characteristics and actions rather than to try to define characters from the books as complete representations of people from the gospels.
It's not just con evos who have problems with the series though. I know someone who self-identifies as liberal who won't even open one of the books because they're bad (thereby rejecting them without knowledge). Mind you, she never could be accused of joined-up thinking.
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The soul is dyed the color of its thoughts. Heraclitus
Posts: 3126 | From: A thin place. | Registered: Jul 2007
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
I don't think jKR set out to put a John The Baptist character in, and a Mary figure in.
I think she had a path to follow though. I think she knew where she wanted to get to right from the start, and some characters fell out naturally from the plot.
I'm pretty sure that her characters took on lives of their own as she was writing and they naturally fell into those moulds.
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
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hanginginthere
Shipmate
# 17541
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Posted
I would be wary of going down the allegory route, still less treating it as a sort of roman a cle (how do I get accents?) as if every character had to correspond to an individual in the real world or in another text. (Interestingly, Tolkien hated allegory and always resented attempts to impose it on his writings). However there are many themes that are distinctly Christian, in particular the overarching one of the power of sacrificial love, as has already been mentioned. But in the Potter books the primary loving sacrifice, the one that protects Harry from Voldemort's power, is that of Harry's mother, and I don't think that would fit into the schema in the OP.
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'Safe?' said Mr Beaver. 'Who said anything about safe? But he's good. He's the King, I tell you.'
Posts: 72 | From: Eboracum | Registered: Jan 2013
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by hanginginthere:
But in the Potter books the primary loving sacrifice, the one that protects Harry from Voldemort's power, is that of Harry's mother, and I don't think that would fit into the schema in the OP.
Well... Mary said "Yes" to God to carry Christ for the Incarnation, with who knows what sacrifices this entailed for her. This lead to Christ being born fully divine and fully human. That's protection in my book.
As I say, I don't believe she approached the books intending to rewrite the Bible with Potterverse characters, but I do think they are there.
It is an analogy, a metaphore, which breaks downn at the extremes, but I believe it does stretch quite well as a model for Christus Victor.
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
There's a difference, it seems to me, between saying that a figure is an allegory for Christ and saying that a figure is an example of Christian ethics and anthropology.
An allegory exists on a different plane from that which it's an allegory of, and parallels it. An example exists on the same plane and flows from what it's an example of. If someone gives up their life for their neighbour and so saves their life, that's not an allegory - that's just an example of what Christians see as a truth about human life. In theology, an allegory falls under Christology. But an example falls under Christian ethics or Christian living or the theology of the Kingdom. And I think Harry Potter counts as the latter, not the former.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
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Basilica
Shipmate
# 16965
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Posted
Like (pretty much) I think it's wrong to read the books as allegory, or even as analogy. They are essentially fairy stories in genre.
However, there are incredibly Christian central themes to the books. First, self-giving love, shown supremely in Harry (though in other characters as well). Second, redemption, shown supremely in Snape.
Yes, there are various aspects that have vague analogues in Christianity, but I think focussing on them ends up obscuring the more radical relationship in these two governing themes.
In other words, people who denounce them as "non-Christian" are talking a very special brand of clap-trap.
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St Deird
Shipmate
# 7631
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
Pretty sure Harry was the 7th Horcrux, not the 8th.
Fair point on the Horcrux count. Harry was the 8th piece of soul.
Seventh, actually. There were six Horcruxes; the other piece of soul was inside Voldemort.
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They're not hobbies; they're a robust post-apocalyptic skill-set.
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
Or she could be like a bunch of people on the Ship- likes church, believes in God, and is still pondering the other details.
Hmmm... that's interesting, because I assumed she was an atheist - because of the films portrayal of absolute denial of any life after death. But the films may not be an accurate portrayal of what's written in the books, so maybe I judged her too quickly. She's allowed to change her views as well, of course, just like we all are.
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
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Jack the Lass
Ship's airhead
# 3415
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
I found this bit on her Wiki page: quote:
Over the years, some religious people have decried Rowling's books for supposedly promoting witchcraft; however, Rowling identifies as a Christian. She attended a Church of Scotland congregation while writing Harry Potter and her eldest daughter, Jessica, was baptised there.[182] "I go to church myself", she says, "I don't take any responsibility for the lunatic fringes of my own religion."[183] She once said, "I believe in God, not magic."[184] Early on she felt that if readers knew of her Christian beliefs they would be able to "guess what is coming in the books."
That last bit seems pertinent to this discussion. Also in that part of the article she admits to struggling with her beliefs. She sounds like a prime candidate for the Ship all right.
Interesting - I thought in interviews she had said she was part of the Scottish Episcopal Church, not the Church of Scotland.
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"My body is a temple - it's big and doesn't move." (Jo Brand)
wiblog blipfoto blog
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Drifting Star
Drifting against the wind
# 12799
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
Or she could be like a bunch of people on the Ship- likes church, believes in God, and is still pondering the other details.
Hmmm... that's interesting, because I assumed she was an atheist - because of the films portrayal of absolute denial of any life after death. But the films may not be an accurate portrayal of what's written in the books, so maybe I judged her too quickly. She's allowed to change her views as well, of course, just like we all are.
Umm. ![[Confused]](confused.gif) The films (and the books) quite explicitly show that there is life after death.
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The soul is dyed the color of its thoughts. Heraclitus
Posts: 3126 | From: A thin place. | Registered: Jul 2007
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Drifting Star:
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
Or she could be like a bunch of people on the Ship- likes church, believes in God, and is still pondering the other details.
Hmmm... that's interesting, because I assumed she was an atheist - because of the films portrayal of absolute denial of any life after death. But the films may not be an accurate portrayal of what's written in the books, so maybe I judged her too quickly. She's allowed to change her views as well, of course, just like we all are.
Umm. The films (and the books) quite explicitly show that there is life after death.
Also, the life-after-death bit for Christians happens after the general resurrection. When we die, we 'fall asleep in the Lord', hence Rest in Peace, Rise in Glory...
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Forward the New Republic
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Drifting Star:
Umm. The films (and the books) quite explicitly show that there is life after death.
Also, the life-after-death bit for Christians happens after the general resurrection. When we die, we 'fall asleep in the Lord', hence Rest in Peace, Rise in Glory...
Yes, well... I've only seen about three of the films. It looks like I've missed a lot!
I've read all the C. S. Lewis Narnia stuff and J.R.R. Tolkien Middle Earth, just not J. K. Rowling.
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
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Carys
Ship's Celticist
# 78
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Posted
The theme I come back to most is that in a fight between good and evil, the goodies can't do anything to stop the baddies just because they're the goodies, they have to stick to three ideals that make them the goodies. Probably because it is so apposite to our world. Guantanamo and Azkaban.
Carys (who is amused that her tablet knew those two places)
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O Lord, you have searched me and know me
You know when I sit and when I rise
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Drifting Star
Drifting against the wind
# 12799
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Drifting Star:
Umm. The films (and the books) quite explicitly show that there is life after death.
Also, the life-after-death bit for Christians happens after the general resurrection. When we die, we 'fall asleep in the Lord', hence Rest in Peace, Rise in Glory...
Yes, well... I've only seen about three of the films. It looks like I've missed a lot!
I've read all the C. S. Lewis Narnia stuff and J.R.R. Tolkien Middle Earth, just not J. K. Rowling.
Well, you're in high profile, if not necessarily good company. Harold Bloom roundly criticised the first four books despite admitting to having only read the first one. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
Oh, and do read the books. The films are not too bad in terms of faithfulness to the books, but there is soooooo much more depth to the books.
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The soul is dyed the color of its thoughts. Heraclitus
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
Indeed. There is reference in the third book onwards, to people having souls. At one point Hermione says that you should be grateful for not losing your soul in a way that appears to me at least, to indicate the soul is an integral part of life after death.
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
There's a difference, it seems to me, between saying that a figure is an allegory for Christ and saying that a figure is an example of Christian ethics and anthropology.
An allegory exists on a different plane from that which it's an allegory of, and parallels it. An example exists on the same plane and flows from what it's an example of. If someone gives up their life for their neighbour and so saves their life, that's not an allegory - that's just an example of what Christians see as a truth about human life. In theology, an allegory falls under Christology. But an example falls under Christian ethics or Christian living or the theology of the Kingdom. And I think Harry Potter counts as the latter, not the former.
Well my dictionary defines an allegory as “a representation of an abstract or spiritual meaning through concrete or material forms; figurative treatment of one subject under the guise of another”
So the HP novels are a representation of a spiritual meaning – Christus Victor – through the form of a series of books that show a figurative treatment of Christ’s ministry, passion and resurrection under the guise of the adventures of a boy wizard.
Allegorical? Most certainly, in my view at any rate. But as ever, dictionary definitions are not everyone’s definition, and I certainly don’t discount them as wrong, even if I choose not to hold to them.
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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alienfromzog
Ship's Alien
# 5327
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
That last bit seems pertinent to this discussion. Also in that part of the article she admits to struggling with her beliefs. She sounds like a prime candidate for the Ship all right.
How do you know she's not a shipmate?!!!
![[Paranoid]](graemlins/paranoid.gif)
Anyways. To see Harry Potter as Allegory and particularly to suggest it's in support of a particular theological position is an extreme stretch.
Of course, the story line is somewhat messianic and the themes of love and self-sacrifice are at the core of the story. In this sense the storyline is authentically Christian. This is particularly clear in the last book where Rowling slips in a couple of biblical quotes.
The kind of Con-Evos who object to HP do so because it depicts witchcraft in a positive light. Nothing else matters.
AFZ
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Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.
[Sen. D.P.Moynihan]
An Alien's View of Earth - my blog (or vanity exercise...)
Posts: 2150 | From: Zog, obviously! Straight past Alpha Centauri, 2nd planet on the left... | Registered: Dec 2003
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
JK Rowling is a Christian. She's a Presbyterian in the Church of Scotland.
There is a common theme in her books of free will and predestination, which ISTM is a distinctively Reformed concern, but I might be reading too much into it ...
quote:
So the HP novels are a representation of a spiritual meaning – Christus Victor – through the form of a series of books that show a figurative treatment of Christ’s ministry, passion and resurrection under the guise of the adventures of a boy wizard.
I think the issue is that Harry isn't an analogue for Christ because there's no sense in which he's divine. He could potentially stand for a human being trying to live the Christian life by imitating Christ, though.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
I think the issue is that Harry isn't an analogue for Christ because there's no sense in which he's divine. He could potentially stand for a human being trying to live the Christian life by imitating Christ, though.
Ah! Okay, I see your point.
Although to counter it, Harry was resurrected. He was killed and came back to life. He also survived the Avada Kedavra curse as a baby. Divinity passed on through his mother, perhaps?
Of course things can get stretched to far. My OP wasn't to suggest that the novels were written with that in mind, just that I could see certain similarities in the characters and their functions, with some NT personalities, and that the CV model of Atonement seems to be prominent in the HP plot in the seventh book.
In my view at least, the books do stand squarely in the "canon" (if there is such a thing) of Christian literature.
As I was typing this, I have just made another connection regarding the witchcraft in the books and the objections to it by con-evo's. Didn't the Pharisee's believe Christ cast out demons by Satanic means? Thus the accusations of Satanism against Harry mirror similar accusations made to Christ.
Oooh! You can read these on so many levels.
[ 04. February 2013, 11:40: Message edited by: deano ]
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by alienfromzog:
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
That last bit seems pertinent to this discussion. Also in that part of the article she admits to struggling with her beliefs. She sounds like a prime candidate for the Ship all right.
How do you know she's not a shipmate?!!!
AFZ
Better things to do with her time?
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
...Harry was resurrected. He was killed and came back to life.
It's not that clear-cut. In his conversation with Dumbledore, he asks whether he is dead, and Dumbledore's reply is, "I think not." Just before they part, Harry asks whether this is all real or whether it is happening inside his head. The gist of Dumbledore's answer is that the fact that something happens inside his head doesn't mean it isn't real.
Getting back to the question of life after death, after Sirius dies at the Ministry, Luna asks Harry if he couldn't hear Sirius talking behind the veil.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
So the HP novels are a representation of a spiritual meaning – Christus Victor – through the form of a series of books that show a figurative treatment of Christ’s ministry, passion and resurrection under the guise of the adventures of a boy wizard.
I don't think that they're a figurative treatment of Christ's passion and resurrection except to the extent that any human goodness and heroism is a figure of Christ's passion and resurrection.
Harry Potter's story takes the shape it does because he's following Jesus (*), not because he's representing Jesus.
(*) unknowingly, given that Harry the character doesn't seem to have any religious beliefs. But clearly whoever ordered his parents' gravestone did.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
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BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
Well my dictionary defines an allegory as “a representation of an abstract or spiritual meaning through concrete or material forms; figurative treatment of one subject under the guise of another”
Your dictionary is right thus the Pilgrim's Progress is a representation of the progress of a soul towards salvation in the guise of an actual physical journey from a city called Destruction to the Celestial City. All or most of the characters 'stand for' something other than themselves, and most of the situations or adventures 'mean' something beyond their ostensible surface meaning.
I'm not aware of a full-blown allegory in modern literature, but elements of Camus's The Plague, I understand, can be read as an allegorical commentary on the German occupation of Paris in 1940, and similarly elements of Arthur Miller's The Crucible can be read allegorically as comment on Macarthyism.
I'm not sure how far the Narnia Chronicles can really be read as an allegory. I would say that there are allegorical elements in them - especially in The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe, The Magician's Nephew, and The Last Battle. OTOH, I can see the argument for saying these are not allegory as such, but rather Lewis's attempt to work out how things which he believed to be cosmically inescapable realities would work out in the fictional world he had created. He revisits these questions (creation, redemption, judgment) in his SF trilogy as well.
TBH, while there are elements in the Harry Potter books which can be read allegorically (allegorical meanings can be found in many works of literature - it is at once the great strength and the great weakness of allegory), I'm not at all sure that is what JKR intended. I think it is more the case that her Christian perspective and world view permeate her story telling.
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alienfromzog
Ship's Alien
# 5327
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by alienfromzog:
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
That last bit seems pertinent to this discussion. Also in that part of the article she admits to struggling with her beliefs. She sounds like a prime candidate for the Ship all right.
How do you know she's not a shipmate?!!!
AFZ
Better things to do with her time?
How can anyone have anything better to do with their time? ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
Oh and what BroJames said.
AFZ
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Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.
[Sen. D.P.Moynihan]
An Alien's View of Earth - my blog (or vanity exercise...)
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Laurelin
Shipmate
# 17211
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Posted
No-one has mentioned my favourite character ... Snape. ![[Biased]](wink.gif) . Alas, poor Severus ... the double agent with a thankless task! Both he and Harry are manipulated a lot by Dumbledore (whom I don't like much, to be honest. Would-be Gandalf type. )
I like the books a lot. . There IS a lot of spirituality and quite overt Christian symbolism in the final book. Harry treads the 'hero sacrificing himself for his world' path ... the Frodo trope, if you will.
But I don't see Harry as a Christ-figure. I like Harry, and do regard him as a genuine hero, but he can be a right little prat at times. (Although he is a huge improvement on his father, whom I dislike.). Admittedly, Harry is not a prat in Deathly Hallows (although he can be self-absorbed) but Rowling the 'trendy leftie' allowing her young hero to use the Torture Curse on one of his enemies really makes me go WHUT.
My favourite characters are Severus, Harry and Hermione (although she can be very annoying, she was pretty awesome in the final book). Oh, and Sirius. He has a dark side. I like him because of it.
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"I fear that to me Siamese cats belong to the fauna of Mordor." J.R.R. Tolkien
Posts: 545 | From: The Shire | Registered: Jul 2012
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TurquoiseTastic
Fish of a different color
# 8978
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by BroJames:
I'm not aware of a full-blown allegory in modern literature, but elements of Camus's The Plague, I understand, can be read as an allegorical commentary on the German occupation of Paris in 1940, and similarly elements of Arthur Miller's The Crucible can be read allegorically as comment on Macarthyism.
Surely the outstanding example of allegory in modern fiction is Animal Farm?
Posts: 1092 | From: Hants., UK | Registered: Jan 2005
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Earwig
Pincered Beastie
# 12057
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Basilica:
Like (pretty much) I think it's wrong to read the books as allegory, or even as analogy. They are essentially fairy stories in genre.
However, there are incredibly Christian central themes to the books. First, self-giving love, shown supremely in Harry (though in other characters as well). Second, redemption, shown supremely in Snape.
I agree with this, and like Laurilyn, Snape's my favourite. And I think this is where your analogy breaks down for me - there's no equivalent for Snape in Christ's ministry. And his is the story arc where Rowling is most original and moving.
Really, the books are all about Snape, but some kid with a scar keeps getting in the way.
Posts: 3120 | From: Yorkshire | Registered: Nov 2006
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Laurelin
Shipmate
# 17211
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Posted
I'm as evangelical as they come, and my former vicar, a conservative evangelical, was a great defender of the HP books. Just throwing that out there: not every single evangelical is silly about Potter.
Oh, and I apologise for saying nobody had mentioned Snape, when Basilica had. ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif)
quote:
Originally posted by Earwig: [QB]
Really, the books are all about Snape, but some kid with a scar keeps getting in the way.
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
I do like Harry, actually. But ... LOL. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Snape is by far one of the most original and moving characters. I prefer him by miles to Dumbledore, who majorly ticks me off on various counts. I would love to know a lot more about Snape's back story.
And, yes, he was awful to Harry. No excuses from me on that count! James Potter was an utter little SHIT, but adult Severus really should know better than to take it out on the son.
Although sometimes he really makes me laugh with the snark.
And. He still tried to protect Harry, for Lily's sake, and he was horrified to learn that Dumbledore had been raising Harry 'like a pig for the slaughter'. And he was brutally murdered in the line of duty. ![[Waterworks]](graemlins/bawling.gif) Harry came to know the truth about him, in the end, and said Snape 'was probably the bravest man he ever knew'.
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"I fear that to me Siamese cats belong to the fauna of Mordor." J.R.R. Tolkien
Posts: 545 | From: The Shire | Registered: Jul 2012
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alienfromzog
Ship's Alien
# 5327
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Laurelin:
And. He still tried to protect Harry, for Lily's sake, and he was horrified to learn that Dumbledore had been raising Harry 'like a pig for the slaughter'. And he was brutally murdered in the line of duty. Harry came to know the truth about him, in the end, and said Snape 'was probably the bravest man he ever knew'.
Spot on. Snape is one of the most intriguing and fascinating characters. I sensed at the end of Prince that Snape would be Good in the end and was really pleased with the way Rowling resolved that without having to force it.
I like Dumbledore - he knew his own frailties and felt the weight of his past sins. He never claimed to be the hero he was made out to be by so many. He knew his own clay feet. But he also knew he had to be the leader and great manipulator if you will and the thing that makes him a Good Guy (IMHO) is that he never liked being that person. He hated it but did it anyway.
All of this, I think emphasises how non-allegorical HP really is. Conversely it's a series that unashamedly promotes a world-view that is very Christ-like; emphasising the importance of love, the cost and value of doing the right thing and the value of a soul.
AFZ
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Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.
[Sen. D.P.Moynihan]
An Alien's View of Earth - my blog (or vanity exercise...)
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
My greatest problem with Snape is his treatment of Neville Longbottom. Neville is sadly lacking in self-confidence, and Snape delights in sneering at him.
That is bullying pure and simple.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
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