Ship of Fools: How should God answer this prayer?

Thread: How should God answer this prayer? Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

To visit this thread, use this URL:
http://forum.ship-of-fools.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=70;t=024601

Posted by The Midge (# 2398) on :

Every so often the efficacy of prayer is cited in discussions about evidence for/ against God. There appears to be no conclusive proof either way that prayer does or does not work. Will God or won’t God buy me a Mercedes Benz? I can’t tell.

The most famous Christian prayer contains the lines “Your kingdom come, Your will be done”. I suspect that there are very few people who have not uttered such a prayer.

So where does this leave us when it comes to working out to what extent that are prayers are in fact being answered? It looks like a vast majority of us have given Our Father cart blanche to do whatever He wishes in accordance with His will (no matter how many Porches our friends have) on the grounds that we once recited the Lord’s prayer in a pre-school Sunday school therefore any request can be refused on the grounds that God does not will it.

Then what does this say about God’s will or the importance of listening prayer to seek His will?
Look, I’ll settle for an old VW, won’t you please make A-mends?

Posted by Mark Betts (# 17074) on :

[Disappointed]

(sigh!)

C.S. Lewis on ‘unanswered’ prayer

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :

God doesn't 'answer prayer'.

Stuff happens, God doesn't control it, not any of it.

When we pray God gives us himself - that's 'all', not things, or outcomes, or guidance, or car park spaces, or insight, or inspiration. Just himself.

Which is enough.

[ 06. February 2013, 07:43: Message edited by: Boogie ]

Posted by deano (# 12063) on :

Every prayer gets answered
Even though
Sometimes the answer is… no.

Brad Paisley

Posted by Komensky (# 8675) on :

The link to the C.S. Lewis quote was excellent. Why oh why oh why oh why do cults then grow up around the idea 'power of prayer'?

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :

quote:
Originally posted by deano:
Every prayer gets answered
Even though
Sometimes the answer is… no.

Brad Paisley

This gives us a terrible god - one I would never worship.

Posted by George Spigot (# 253) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
The link to the C.S. Lewis quote was excellent. Why oh why oh why oh why do cults then grow up around the idea 'power of prayer'?

Because week after week thousands of people happily report that their prayers have been answered. Answered prayer is routinely attributed to everything from the discovery of lost spectacles to the curing of cancer. If they are feeling especially generous the people in the latter group also make time to thank the hospital.

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

quote:
Originally posted by George Spigot:

quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
The link to the C.S. Lewis quote was excellent. Why oh why oh why oh why do cults then grow up around the idea 'power of prayer'?
Because week after week thousands of people happily report that their prayers have been answered. Answered prayer is routinely attributed to everything from the discovery of lost spectacles to the curing of cancer. If they are feeling especially generous the people in the latter group also make time to thank the hospital.

You forgot provision of parking spaces.

Posted by Hawk (# 14289) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:

quote:
Originally posted by deano:
Every prayer gets answered
Even though
Sometimes the answer is… no.

Brad Paisley
This gives us a terrible god - one I would never worship.

Why? Don't you think a God who does answer prayer should ever say no to you?

I believe that God answers prayer, sometimes suprisingly, and not how we expected, sometimes he refuses our requests because He knows better than we do what we need, or what the consequences of it would be. Sometimes I have been astonished at God's direct providence, other times I have wondered why God has not given me the simple (to me) thing that I asked for.

In all my prayers I remind myself that 'not my will but yours be done'. What I ask for may not be God's will. He knows best and I must accept that, however hard it may sometimes be to humble myself to what he was wants and knows to be best, rather than what I want, and imagine is best.

And yes God does give us Himself as well to comfort and guide us. But a God who can do nothing practical for us or influence all the 'stuff happens', is a denuded, impotent God, the opposite of how he is revealed in scripture, and not one worthy of anyone's worship.

Posted by Laurelin (# 17211) on :

I've just started reading this:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/When-Doesnt-Answer-Your-Prayer/dp/0310272688/ref=sr_1_5?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1360147803&sr=1-5

It's very good. And no, it's not the usual shallow 'pop evangelical' pat-answer kind of book. Jerry Sittser is a very good writer.

I read his A Grace Disguised recently. He's a professor of theology who lost his wife, mother and youngest child in a terrible car crash in 1991, leaving him a widower with three surviving children. If anything could make a person lose their faith, surely such a terrible experience would be high on the list ... [Ultra confused]

He is very honest and real about the starkness of bereavement, loss and tragedy. Some evangelicals, in my experience, are very uncomfortable about that kind of honesty, about talking about how deep and dreadful the darkness can be, as if by the admittance one is doubting the sovereignty of God.

Sittser's faith survived the tragedy that befell his family. I will listen with respect to anything this guy has to say on the mystery of 'unanswered prayer'. (In the first chapter, he talks about how unsatisfactory this phrase is.)

CS Lewis is always good value. [Smile]

Of course he himself confronted the silence of God in his searing A Grief Observed, which is not an easy read.

[ 06. February 2013, 09:58: Message edited by: Laurelin ]

Posted by Hawk (# 14289) on :

quote:
Originally posted by The Midge:
It looks like a vast majority of us have given Our Father cart blanche to do whatever He wishes in accordance with His will ...
Then what does this say about God’s will or the importance of listening prayer to seek His will?

This is a very interesting question. The tension between God's absolute Will and omnipotent power and our free will to act, even seemingly in opposition to that, is a difficult knot to unravel. It is the basis of our relationship with our Creator.

I believe that God's will is absolute, and nothing can happen outside His will. But the Bible is clear that God is not some implacable Fate written in stone that we cannot influence. Often we see how God witholds or changes His judgements because of the pleas of His people.

Part of prayer is indeed the humble seeking of God's will. But part of it is petitioning Him to act according to that will. Of course God knows what we want without us needing to ask for it out loud (or in our heads), but He wants us to ask Him for it, primarily, I think, because the very act of our asking serves to bring us closer to Him.

But also, the extraordinary truth is that by our petitions we can influence God's actions. We cannot control Him of course; he is not our servant, to obey our demands. He is our Lord, to act solely according to His own will. But His will is for us to petition Him, to ask Him for all things, so that He can act in response to them.

When we ask God for something He listens. Sometimes He chooses not to act until we ask. We need to ask Him for forgiveness before He will forgive us, for instance. It is how He respects our free will. He is not a tyrant, and we are not His puppets, to dance according to His every whim. He is all-powerful and could easily act as a tyrant if he chose. But he can withold acting according to His will until we request it, for us.

His will and ours should be in accord, but often it is not. And though it grieves Him, He allows us to reject Him if we choose to, just as He allows us to approach Him if we choose to.

Posted by EtymologicalEvangelical (# 15091) on :

The idea that answered prayer constitutes evidence for the existence of God, and therefore, conversely, that unanswered prayer calls His existence into question, is based on a false premise, namely, that God cannot be known directly and experientially. Therefore answered prayer somehow has to serve the role of mediator between the believer and the distant, hidden God.

Imagine this scenario: there is a certain brick wall, and no one has seen what exists behind it. But set in this wall is a cash machine (ATM). If you 'ask' the machine nicely and in the appropriate way, you can obtain cash from it. You go up to the machine, perform the requisite experiment by making a pleasant and humble request for money, and the machine responds to you by giving you the cash you requested. From this response to your request, you infer the existence of a generous benefactor behind the wall. Thus you can have some kind of 'relationship' with this invisible entity through the cash they dispense to you.

Someone else tries and finds that the machine does not respond to them. In their anger, bitterness and frustration they infer that there is no super generous dispenser of cash behind the wall, and the ATM is fake. They also refuse to believe the claims of the person who successfully obtained money.

For all its imperfection, this crude analogy illustrates (to my mind) the fallacy of invoking prayer as evidence for the existence of God. The Christian's relationship with God is not merely an intellectual inference based on benefits received, but is (or should be) a real, experiential knowledge through the work and witness of the Holy Spirit. We don't infer the existence of the benefactor through what we may obtain, but we meet the benefactor Himself.

As for the idea that God answers all prayer and some of his answers are 'no': that is true, but if this is offered as evidence for the existence of God, then it is circular. I remember watching this atheist YouTube video on this subject, and although it was rather simplistic and a brazen attempt at atheistic proselytising, it does have a point: "yes, no and wait" is a "no lose" scenario. The entire premise of the video maker is that Christians believe in God only because of answered prayer. This, of course, is a presumption so wearisomely typical of a convinced atheist.

Posted by The Silent Acolyte (# 1158) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
God doesn't 'answer prayer'.

This gives us a terrible god - one I would never worship.

quote:
Stuff happens, God doesn't control it, not any of it.

I'm sorry to be referencing the Orthodox liturgy twice in two posts, but it seems to be on point today.

Sometime, I think, during the run-up to the Feast of the Nativity, this line is repeated, "The natural order is overthrown for He does whatever he wills." It refers to the outside-of-nature conception of the child Jesus, quoting, perhaps, Gregory Thaumatourgos (My search engine is an awesome search engine!).

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

EE - you are correct that answered prayer is a daft argument for the existence of God, but your alternative certainly doesn't resonate for me. God is indeed distant and invisible, and I do not know you mean by "experiencing God directly". That means as little to me as this "personal relationship with Jesus" stuff that makes it sound like he lives next door and you can nip round for a cup of tea.

Posted by Komensky (# 8675) on :

So, still trying to deal with the OP (a bit), is there any 'power' in prayer as some would have us think? If there is none, then why bother?

I'm not happy with either answer (though I've presented myself the fallacy of the false alternative).

Posted by EtymologicalEvangelical (# 15091) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider
EE - you are correct that answered prayer is a daft argument for the existence of God, but your alternative certainly doesn't resonate for me. God is indeed distant and invisible, and I do not know you mean by "experiencing God directly". That means as little to me as this "personal relationship with Jesus" stuff that makes it sound like he lives next door and you can nip round for a cup of tea.

I don't know why some people have a profound experience of God and others do not. I certainly believe in the immanence of God, who can be experienced through the work of the Holy Spirit. I am well aware that my spiritual experiences will be dismissed by naturalists as merely neural events. I cannot change what other people choose to think, but I am sure that many such naturalists can appreciate that they are unlikely to convince me of their theory.

I am also fully aware of the fact that my personal experience does not constitute evidence that could convince others, because, of course, it is personal. That is why I prefer to stick to various arguments in the field of Christian apologetics. Answered / unanswered prayer is part of the personal realm, and therefore I cannot appeal to it as a valid argument to support the claim of the existence of God (unless it involves something very dramatic and miraculous supported by, e.g. medical documentation).

[ 06. February 2013, 11:10: Message edited by: EtymologicalEvangelical ]

Posted by Hawk (# 14289) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
So, still trying to deal with the OP (a bit), is there any 'power' in prayer as some would have us think? If there is none, then why bother?

I think the 'power' of prayer is the power of God only. Prayer has no intrinsic power by itself. The thought that somehow it can be 'charged up' by a person's faith or personal saintliness to make it more efficacious or not smacks of both superstition and trying to arrogate to onself what properly belongs to God.

In one sense though, the very fact that we can speak to our creator directly is a 'powerful' gift that God has given us. But we should never think that we have this power through any ability or skill we have.

Posted by The Midge (# 2398) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
God doesn't 'answer prayer'.

Stuff happens, God doesn't control it, not any of it.

When we pray God gives us himself - that's 'all', not things, or outcomes, or guidance, or car park spaces, or insight, or inspiration. Just himself.

Which is enough.

I find this response a bit troubling. I would think that prayer would be a bit more personal.

Is there any difference to this type of prayer and standing under a starry sky and being ‘at one with the universe’ where the constellations turn without a care for the astronomer?

Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
God doesn't 'answer prayer'.

Stuff happens, God doesn't control it, not any of it.

When we pray God gives us himself - that's 'all', not things, or outcomes, or guidance, or car park spaces, or insight, or inspiration. Just himself.

Which is enough.

Isn't this just Deism? The whole point of Christianity (as opposed to other faiths) is a personal relationship with God, which this concept would exclude.

Posted by Komensky (# 8675) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Hawk:

quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
So, still trying to deal with the OP (a bit), is there any 'power' in prayer as some would have us think? If there is none, then why bother?
I think the 'power' of prayer is the power of God only. Prayer has no intrinsic power by itself. The thought that somehow it can be 'charged up' by a person's faith or personal saintliness to make it more efficacious or not smacks of both superstition and trying to arrogate to onself what properly belongs to God.

In one sense though, the very fact that we can speak to our creator directly is a 'powerful' gift that God has given us. But we should never think that we have this power through any ability or skill we have.

I agree with this, I think. But one still sees/hears people 'channeling' prayers or even—wait for it—'aiming beams of prayer' at people at things. If that's how people imagine prayer to 'work', as a kind of positive force to be harnessed, it's no wonder they're so disappointed and no wonder that christian culture has produced so many 'why-God-doesn't-answer-prayers' books.

Posted by deano (# 12063) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:

quote:
Originally posted by deano:
Every prayer gets answered
Even though
Sometimes the answer is… no.

Brad Paisley
This gives us a terrible god - one I would never worship.

Huh?

Don't youthink it might be a good idea for God to say "no" if I pray to kill to kill someone who is blocking my way to promotion at work?

I do!

And then hopefully He will send the Holy Spirit on me to point out that praying for anyone to be killed is wrong!

But saying "No" is a good start.

Posted by Laurelin (# 17211) on :

I've just had direct experience of a 'no'.

I've been praying for something for months. Oh, and being proactive, not just waiting for God to magically drop an answer in my lap.

The silence was deafening. My proactivity got no results.

The answer eventually came, through church friends who gave me an alternative.

The answer to my prayer was, 'Leave the house where you're living.' I don't mean that God actually spoke those exact words to me. LOL. But it was clear, unmistakable guidance.

So I've moved house. And it was the right thing to do.

Posted by The Midge (# 2398) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Hawk:
This is a very interesting question. The tension between God's absolute Will and omnipotent power and our free will to act, even seemingly in opposition to that, is a difficult knot to unravel. It is the basis of our relationship with our Creator.

I believe that God's will is absolute, and nothing can happen outside His will. But the Bible is clear that God is not some implacable Fate written in stone that we cannot influence. Often we see how God witholds or changes His judgements because of the pleas of His people.

Part of prayer is indeed the humble seeking of God's will. But part of it is petitioning Him to act according to that will. Of course God knows what we want without us needing to ask for it out loud (or in our heads), but He wants us to ask Him for it, primarily, I think, because the very act of our asking serves to bring us closer to Him.

But also, the extraordinary truth is that by our petitions we can influence God's actions. We cannot control Him of course; he is not our servant, to obey our demands. He is our Lord, to act solely according to His own will. But His will is for us to petition Him, to ask Him for all things, so that He can act in response to them.

When we ask God for something He listens. Sometimes He chooses not to act until we ask. We need to ask Him for forgiveness before He will forgive us, for instance. It is how He respects our free will. He is not a tyrant, and we are not His puppets, to dance according to His every whim. He is all-powerful and could easily act as a tyrant if he chose. But he can withold acting according to His will until we request it, for us.

His will and ours should be in accord, but often it is not. And though it grieves Him, He allows us to reject Him if we choose to, just as He allows us to approach Him if we choose to.

It sounds like we are getting down to the difference between the Ordained Will of God and the permissive will of God; then having a conversation with God about our interplay within the two.

This would mean that predestination is a final out come with a maze of potential paths that we could navigate. God could then intervene to nudge us in the right direction, provide a pep drink to help when we tire out or switch a few paths to make sure we get to where He wants.

That still leads us with the challenge of trying to work out if we are on course, hopelessly lost, the directions we receive are nothing but our imagination or we are dead on our feet due to little more than our own weaknesses. It is no easy thing when the walls of the maze tower over us like a canyon.

[Code fix]

[ 06. February 2013, 12:08: Message edited by: The Midge ]

Posted by The Midge (# 2398) on :

quote:
Originally posted by deano:

quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:

quote:
Originally posted by deano:
Every prayer gets answered
Even though
Sometimes the answer is… no.

Brad Paisley
This gives us a terrible god - one I would never worship.
Huh?

Don't youthink it might be a good idea for God to say "no" if I pray to kill to kill someone who is blocking my way to promotion at work?

I do!

And then hopefully He will send the Holy Spirit on me to point out that praying for anyone to be killed is wrong!

But saying "No" is a good start.

God may sympathise with you. [Two face]

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :

quote:
Originally posted by deano:

quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:

quote:
Originally posted by deano:
Every prayer gets answered
Even though
Sometimes the answer is… no.

Brad Paisley
This gives us a terrible god - one I would never worship.
Huh?

Don't youthink it might be a good idea for God to say "no" if I pray to kill to kill someone who is blocking my way to promotion at work?

God doesn't say 'yes' or 'no' imo. God says neither and leaves it up to you.

You think God would say 'no' to the millions who starve or live in terrible poverty due to drought and desperately pray for rain?

We can find many excuses and reasons for a 'no' answer. But praying for an end to, for example, child abuse would get a 'yes' from any God which answered prayer.

Sh/e doesn't.

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:

quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
God doesn't 'answer prayer'.

Stuff happens, God doesn't control it, not any of it.

When we pray God gives us himself - that's 'all', not things, or outcomes, or guidance, or car park spaces, or insight, or inspiration. Just himself.

Which is enough.
Isn't this just Deism? The whole point of Christianity (as opposed to other faiths) is a personal relationship with God, which this concept would exclude.

If God gives himself to us, is this not relationship?

Posted by Porridge (# 15405) on :

In my years as a Christian, and especially in the latter portion as a deacon, I became disillusioned with the hundreds of prayer requests from my fellow Christians, almost all of whom were begging God for some exceptional favor: “Save Aunt Sally” prayers.

I don’t mean to trivialize human grief. It’s real and it visits us all – one reason why it’s pointless for believers either to beg God to spare us from it, or to point to temporary abeyance from it as evidence for God. When we look at the prayer left us by Christianity’s founder, it lists the following items:

1. that God’s name be recognized as holy
2. a petition that God’s kingdom be established and God’s will (not ours, notice) be done
3. a petition that we be fed today (a modest request rarely requiring any miraculous act by God)
4. a petition that we be judged as we ourselves judge (a reminder to offer compassion)
5. a petition that God not tempt us (a reminder of how feeble is our human condition)
6. a petition that we be delivered from evil (I suspect many people read this as “Let no evil befall me;” I also suspect it actually means something more like, “Help me avoid doing evil.”
7. an acknowledgement of divine power and authority

I see not a whiff of “Save Aunt Sally” in this prayer. I see an acknowledgement of human helplessness, an acknowledgement of the power of God, and not a single demand for God to perform any magic.

Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:

quote:
Originally posted by deano:

quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:

quote:
Originally posted by deano:
Every prayer gets answered
Even though
Sometimes the answer is… no.

Brad Paisley
This gives us a terrible god - one I would never worship.
Huh?

Don't youthink it might be a good idea for God to say "no" if I pray to kill to kill someone who is blocking my way to promotion at work?

God doesn't say 'yes' or 'no' imo. God says neither and leaves it up to you.

You think God would say 'no' to the millions who starve or live in terrible poverty due to drought and desperately pray for rain?

We can find many excuses and reasons for a 'no' answer. But praying for an end to, for example, child abuse would get a 'yes' from any God which answered prayer.

Sh/e doesn't.

God said 'no' to Jesus' request to not be crucified. God says no all the time.

Posted by Mark Betts (# 17074) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Hawk:
The thought that somehow it can be 'charged up' by a person's faith or personal saintliness to make it more efficacious or not smacks of both superstition and trying to arrogate to onself what properly belongs to God.

quote:
James 5:16
The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

Don't dismiss it too hastily.

Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:

quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:

quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
God doesn't 'answer prayer'.

Stuff happens, God doesn't control it, not any of it.

When we pray God gives us himself - that's 'all', not things, or outcomes, or guidance, or car park spaces, or insight, or inspiration. Just himself.

Which is enough.
Isn't this just Deism? The whole point of Christianity (as opposed to other faiths) is a personal relationship with God, which this concept would exclude.
If God gives himself to us, is this not relationship?

I'm not sure what you mean by 'gives Himself to us'. Surely this would include guidance, insight and inspiration, if not the other things you exclude? What do you think God does exactly? A relationship involves some kind of action between two people, which imo includes God creating us, saving us, giving us the Holy Spirit and guiding us. God isn't a distant Allah.

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
God said 'no' to Jesus' request to not be crucified. God says no all the time.

God didn't intervene. God never does imo.

I can see why - because none of us would be free if S/he did intervene. Jesus freely chose His path - there was no coercion one way or the other.

Posted by EtymologicalEvangelical (# 15091) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Porridge
When we look at the prayer left us by Christianity’s founder, it lists the following items:

...

2. a petition that God’s kingdom be established and God’s will (not ours, notice) be done

...

I see not a whiff of “Save Aunt Sally” in this prayer.

I see more than a whiff of "Save Aunt Sally" in it. In fact, it screams "Save Aunt Sally"!

What is the "kingdom of God" if it is not to do with healing, deliverance and salvation?

Isn't this an announcement of the coming of the Kingdom of God? :

quote:
So He came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up. And as His custom was, He went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and stood up to read. And He was handed the book of the prophet Isaiah. And when He had opened the book, He found the place where it was written:

“The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me,
Because He has anointed Me
To preach the gospel to the poor;
He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted,
To proclaim liberty to the captives
And recovery of sight to the blind,
To set at liberty those who are oppressed;
To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord.”

Then He closed the book, and gave it back to the attendant and sat down. And the eyes of all who were in the synagogue were fixed on Him. And He began to say to them, “Today this Scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.”

Luke 4:16-21.

Is the "saving of Aunt Sally" not included in the list of works quoted by Jesus from the prophet Isaiah?

[ 06. February 2013, 13:15: Message edited by: EtymologicalEvangelical ]

Posted by kankucho (# 14318) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
God doesn't 'answer prayer'.

Stuff happens, God doesn't control it, not any of it.

When we pray God gives us himself - that's 'all', not things, or outcomes, or guidance, or car park spaces, or insight, or inspiration. Just himself.

Which is enough.

quote:
Originally posted by The Midge:

I find this response a bit troubling. I would think that prayer would be a bit more personal.

Is there any difference to this type of prayer and standing under a starry sky and being ‘at one with the universe’ where the constellations turn without a care for the astronomer?

quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Isn't this just Deism? The whole point of Christianity (as opposed to other faiths) is a personal relationship with God, which this concept would exclude.

I sense we're covering very similar ground to the recent 'Prayer blockages' thread.

The gist of my input there, with comment by Karl: LB was this...(Insert finger here)

The constellations may not, in themselves, give a damn about the astronomer. But that's not what I understand by 'being at one with the universe' (man!). Prayer is a process of causing the environment, circumstances — broaden that to the whole universe if you like — to subjectively be on your side. Whether or not we imagine a pervading intelligence (God) to be involved in that universe, the process is much the same: preparing ourselves to be alert and receptive to a turn of events that will be beneficial to us.

Posted by Mere Nick (# 11827) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:

quote:
Originally posted by deano:
Every prayer gets answered
Even though
Sometimes the answer is… no.

Brad Paisley
This gives us a terrible god - one I would never worship.

Bull butter. I often times told my children no and it was for their own good.

Posted by The Midge (# 2398) on :

quote:
Originally posted by kankucho:

quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
God doesn't 'answer prayer'.

Stuff happens, God doesn't control it, not any of it.

When we pray God gives us himself - that's 'all', not things, or outcomes, or guidance, or car park spaces, or insight, or inspiration. Just himself.

Which is enough.

quote:
Originally posted by The Midge:

I find this response a bit troubling. I would think that prayer would be a bit more personal.

Is there any difference to this type of prayer and standing under a starry sky and being ‘at one with the universe’ where the constellations turn without a care for the astronomer?

quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Isn't this just Deism? The whole point of Christianity (as opposed to other faiths) is a personal relationship with God, which this concept would exclude.
I sense we're covering very similar ground to the recent 'Prayer blockages' thread.

The gist of my input there, with comment by Karl: LB was this...(Insert finger here)

The constellations may not, in themselves, give a damn about the astronomer. But that's not what I understand by 'being at one with the universe' (man!). Prayer is a process of causing the environment, circumstances — broaden that to the whole universe if you like — to subjectively be on your side. Whether or not we imagine a pervading intelligence (God) to be involved in that universe, the process is much the same: preparing ourselves to be alert and receptive to a turn of events that will be beneficial to us.

I can see perception being employed here. There is a need to listen or tune in, to be aware of God or reality beyond ourselves. I agree with you up to that point. This sounds a lot like contemplation or ‘waiting on the LORD’.

Christ followers are encouraged to address themselves to ‘our Father’ which is something different to the material environment. However if there is only matter or a remote causal being then we may be subjectively better off by aligning ourselves to it. We would move ourselves rather than effecting a change on the universe. I can’t see that making a blind bit of difference to our petitions, to which the granting of would be little more than the chance of winning the lottery and 'god' would be the machine dispensing the numbered balls.

Random chance or the out working of rationally explainable phenomena.

Posted by Horseman Bree (# 5290) on :

Seen on a bumper sticker:

"26,000* children died of starvation this week. What makes you think that God is interested in answering your prayers?"

unless, of course, your prayers in some way help the starving.

*or whatever the number might be

Posted by poileplume (# 16438) on :

Can someone be so kind as to explain what are the Ordained Will of God and the Permissive Will of God? I tried to Google it but the only references were incomprehensible for someone who is not a theologian.

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

This reminds me of two cartoons that were floating around That Other Place during the run-up to the superbowl.

One was a split screen: the top half was a football player saying into a microphone, "I'd like to thank God for helping us win the game." The bottom half showed Jesus watching hockey on TV.

The second showed a football player with a microphone in his face saying, "I'd like to curse God for losing us the game."

Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:

quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
God said 'no' to Jesus' request to not be crucified. God says no all the time.
God didn't intervene. God never does imo.

I can see why - because none of us would be free if S/he did intervene. Jesus freely chose His path - there was no coercion one way or the other.

Jesus' entire ministry was God intervening, not least His conception. So I don't see why it's so unreasonable to suppose that Jesus got a 'no' re being spared that cup.

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Isn't this just Deism? The whole point of Christianity (as opposed to other faiths) is a personal relationship with God, which this concept would exclude.

Huh?

quote:
When we pray God gives us himself - that's 'all',

What more do you want?

Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:

quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Isn't this just Deism? The whole point of Christianity (as opposed to other faiths) is a personal relationship with God, which this concept would exclude.
Huh?
quote:
When we pray God gives us himself - that's 'all',
What more do you want?

The idea of a God who doesn't interfere with humanity is Deism, right? Boogie said that in their opinion God doesn't intervene. I'm confused by what they mean by God 'giving himself' in light of that.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:

quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:

quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Isn't this just Deism? The whole point of Christianity (as opposed to other faiths) is a personal relationship with God, which this concept would exclude.
Huh?
quote:
When we pray God gives us himself - that's 'all',
What more do you want?
The idea of a God who doesn't interfere with humanity is Deism, right? Boogie said that in their opinion God doesn't intervene. I'm confused by what they mean by God 'giving himself' in light of that.

Not Deism at all but orthodox Christianity - free will and all that.

Posted by k-mann (# 8490) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:

quote:
Originally posted by deano:
Every prayer gets answered
Even though
Sometimes the answer is… no.

Brad Paisley
This gives us a terrible god - one I would never worship.

So if a person prayed from something horrible, God should grant his wish?

Posted by deano (# 12063) on :

If boogie is right - and I don't believe they are - then there is no point in any kind of intercessionary prayer.

In fact I'm trying to think of any prayer that is worth offering up if God doesn't get involved in some way, even if it is to say "no".

Isn't the "S" in the "Acts" format of prayer suppose to stand for "Supplication", which is another way of saying Intercessionary.

I'll keep on doing it with the "S"

Posted by redderfreak (# 15191) on :

You may want God to do his thing. But a lot of other people don't.

Why should he make your prayer his priority?

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

quote:
Originally posted by redderfreak:
You may want God to do his thing. But a lot of other people don't.

Why should he make your prayer his priority?

That's up to him. I pray it; he decides. That's how it works.

Posted by Russ (# 120) on :

quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
The idea that answered prayer constitutes evidence for the existence of God, and therefore, conversely, that unanswered prayer calls His existence into question, is based on a false premise,

I think what bothers me is those who claim that answered prayer is evidence for God but unanswered prayer isn't evidence against.

I can sort of see how that might be so, and most of the time I'm sure that whoever's saying this believes it in good faith.

But it's an unfair experiment, a "heads I win tails you lose", con-man's thinking, a loaded-dice argument, however you want to put it.

So if you think both halves together are mistaken, are you willing to jettison the half you're comfortable with as well as the half you're not ?

Is answered prayer meaningless alone ? Would a God who answers prayers but doesn't grant the sort of direct experience you mention be no God worthy of the name ?

Or are you inviting us to play with those loaded dice ?

Best wishes,

Russ

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
I think what bothers me is those who claim that answered prayer is evidence for God but unanswered prayer isn't evidence against....

But it's an unfair experiment, a "heads I win tails you lose", con-man's thinking, a loaded-dice argument, however you want to put it.

Actually I think it would be more accurate to call it a "heads I win, tails we break even" argument.

Posted by Porridge (# 15405) on :

quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
What is the "kingdom of God" if it is not to do with healing, deliverance and salvation?

. . .

Is the "saving of Aunt Sally" not included in the list of works quoted by Jesus from the prophet Isaiah?

Perhaps our understandings of "kingdom of God" differ. Outside the kingdom of God (for those who believe), there is an endless and crying need for "healing, deliverance, and salvation." Inside the "kingdom of God," why would any be needed?

Jesus is certainly alleged to have done miracles as recorded in the NT. Miracle stories collect around personalities like his; that still happens today. Just as contemporary miracles often turn out to be something else, I can't help thinking the Jesus miracles might represent something else too, but what do I know? I wasn't there.

By the "saving Aunt Sally" prayers I referred to above, I simply meant the majority of pleadings I've heard for some kind of miraculous intervention from God, usually for cures of end-stage cancer, or the removal of some desperate disability or obstacle or the prevention of some unpreventable disaster.

I sat with so many of these people after the miracle they'd prayed for failed to manifest, offering what small comfort I could. I've heard people accuse themselves of insufficient faith, insufficient love, not praying hard enough, and on and on, when the reality was much simpler: insufficient time, or help sought too late (or not accepted), or institutional intransigence, etc., etc. I needn't tell anyone on this thread how excruciating it is to watch some poor grief-raddled, sleep-deprived survivor shred him- or herself to bits for something no one could help, and for whch they are in no way responsible.

We do not live in the kingdom of God. We live outside it. There's nothing wrong with believers hoping and praying for that happy state, but IMO, we're better off (at least until its arrival) petitioning, if we're going to petition at all, for the ability to remain compassionate, for enough insight to keep us from doing evil, for enough daily bread to keep us going, and for the ongoing recognition that we're not nearly as in control or as deserving as we'd like to believe we are.

Posted by The Midge (# 2398) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:

quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
What is the "kingdom of God" if it is not to do with healing, deliverance and salvation?

. . .

Is the "saving of Aunt Sally" not included in the list of works quoted by Jesus from the prophet Isaiah?
Perhaps our understandings of "kingdom of God" differ. Outside the kingdom of God (for those who believe), there is an endless and crying need for "healing, deliverance, and salvation." Inside the "kingdom of God," why would any be needed?

Jesus is certainly alleged to have done miracles as recorded in the NT. Miracle stories collect around personalities like his; that still happens today. Just as contemporary miracles often turn out to be something else, I can't help thinking the Jesus miracles might represent something else too, but what do I know? I wasn't there.

By the "saving Aunt Sally" prayers I referred to above, I simply meant the majority of pleadings I've heard for some kind of miraculous intervention from God, usually for cures of end-stage cancer, or the removal of some desperate disability or obstacle or the prevention of some unpreventable disaster.

I sat with so many of these people after the miracle they'd prayed for failed to manifest, offering what small comfort I could. I've heard people accuse themselves of insufficient faith, insufficient love, not praying hard enough, and on and on, when the reality was much simpler: insufficient time, or help sought too late (or not accepted), or institutional intransigence, etc., etc. I needn't tell anyone on this thread how excruciating it is to watch some poor grief-raddled, sleep-deprived survivor shred him- or herself to bits for something no one could help, and for whch they are in no way responsible.

We do not live in the kingdom of God. We live outside it. There's nothing wrong with believers hoping and praying for that happy state, but IMO, we're better off (at least until its arrival) petitioning, if we're going to petition at all, for the ability to remain compassionate, for enough insight to keep us from doing evil, for enough daily bread to keep us going, and for the ongoing recognition that we're not nearly as in control or as deserving as we'd like to believe we are.

I have fought ten rounds with church leaders who have prayed, prophesised and promised healing to a friend dying of cancer. More over the fact they took no responsibility when death did come for their actions and the emotional and spiritual fallout that results than for trying for healing and failing.

However I still expect something to happen when I pray- a change to a situation, to another or myself: some kind of formation, positive result, understanding, fortitude, comfort or God to be present in a way that is somewhat less remote than the Milky Way. Yet there are the dark times when God appears to have left the building.

I also think that this should be experienced as the Kingdom being made present, however incomplete that experience. That has to be because we are in, entering in or imminently expecting the Kingdom rather than because we are outside of it. Ok we may still be in the no man’s land at the border crossing or doing the Okey-dokey, in, out, in, out and shakeing it all about. But that is to say that the answer is in how much of a situation can be claimed for God rather than predicating a particular outcome. The prayer of ‘Your Kingdom Come’ is not taking place in a neutral demilitarised zone.

Posted by Porridge (# 15405) on :

quote:
Originally posted by The Midge:
I have fought ten rounds with church leaders who have prayed, prophesised and promised healing to a friend dying of cancer. More over the fact they took no responsibility when death did come for their actions and the emotional and spiritual fallout that results than for trying for healing and failing.

And there's one of many reasons I no longer answer to the label "Christian," and why I find it impossible to summon up belief in some sort of benevolent supernatural deity.

Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on :

I don't believe in answers any more. If I were to hold to the idea that prayers were answered, then God would necessarily be a monster because of our experience that he specifically ignored a daily prayer for protection and allowed a random and horrific action of violence to befall us. It would be as if in our asking, God decided to arrange the violence just because we asked, to test us, or otherwise squish us like so many ants. Just for fun. So we have given up on such expectation.

But I'm not saying prayers are useless. I don't think prayers are granted at a significant enough frequency to consider it relevant, if they are at all. Rather, prayers are a positive but selfish little action that can provide comfort, so as to bear all the awful that we experience. This is what we have found. Particularly the psalms, as recommended by more experienced shipmates. Very helpful.

So I think snswered prayers are mostly wishful thinking and happy coincidence. Unanswered prayers are absence of coincidence, nothing more. I agree that "unanswered" and "answered" are problematic words in this context. The real problems are us trying to bend reality to our wills rather than forming ours' to reality. Prayers are about coping and comfort,

It is probably true that if I did experience an answer to prayer, I would have to be very angry with God because of the choice to grant that when he refused to grant the simple avoidance of a random act of violence from a stranger to a child. Should be calling him Mr Damn at that point, using God's last name.

Posted by The Midge (# 2398) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:

quote:
Originally posted by The Midge:
I have fought ten rounds with church leaders who have prayed, prophesised and promised healing to a friend dying of cancer. More over the fact they took no responsibility when death did come for their actions and the emotional and spiritual fallout that results than for trying for healing and failing.
And there's one of many reasons I no longer answer to the label "Christian," and why I find it impossible to summon up belief in some sort of benevolent supernatural deity.

[Tongue in Cheek] Just to clarify: Are you unable to summon up belief in some sort of benevolent super natural being because of the outrageous behaviour of irate members of your flock or the nonsense spouted by those who teach silly things about prayer? [/ Tongue in Cheek]

More seriously; I have learned through this thread that, whatever else prayer may be, it is not a litmus test for the existence of a deity- or at least not the Christian God.

I have tried to reflect on my experiences and learn how to deal with God, leaders and terminally ill loved ones better. I’m praying for a loved one who is dying from cancer and a number of close friends who are afflicted by the disease. I’m not asking for healing indeed I have a sense that this is not on offer. I am asking for the strength to get through the walk with them, for their spouse, that suffering might be reduced, to be able to show compassion and love. If that is Aunt Sally prayers then so be it. I suppose it to be a case of expecting nothing but anticipating everything.

Posted by The Midge (# 2398) on :

quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
I don't believe in answers any more. If I were to hold to the idea that prayers were answered, then God would necessarily be a monster because of our experience that he specifically ignored a daily prayer for protection and allowed a random and horrific action of violence to befall us. It would be as if in our asking, God decided to arrange the violence just because we asked, to test us, or otherwise squish us like so many ants. Just for fun. So we have given up on such expectation.

But I'm not saying prayers are useless. I don't think prayers are granted at a significant enough frequency to consider it relevant, if they are at all. Rather, prayers are a positive but selfish little action that can provide comfort, so as to bear all the awful that we experience. This is what we have found. Particularly the psalms, as recommended by more experienced shipmates. Very helpful.

So I think snswered prayers are mostly wishful thinking and happy coincidence. Unanswered prayers are absence of coincidence, nothing more. I agree that "unanswered" and "answered" are problematic words in this context. The real problems are us trying to bend reality to our wills rather than forming ours' to reality. Prayers are about coping and comfort,

It is probably true that if I did experience an answer to prayer, I would have to be very angry with God because of the choice to grant that when he refused to grant the simple avoidance of a random act of violence from a stranger to a child. Should be calling him Mr Damn at that point, using God's last name.

It looks like you arrived at the same place as CS Lewis (link above) but from a different direction.

Posted by Porridge (# 15405) on :

quote:
Originally posted by The Midge:
If that is Aunt Sally prayers then so be it. I suppose it to be a case of expecting nothing but anticipating everything.

Well, taking a quiet moment to acknowledge to oneself that we need strength or help or guidance, and that we need to tread with care and compassion does not qualify as a "save Aunt Sally" prayer to me. It's the request for (sometimes even demand for or outright expectation of) miracles that gets up my nose. Especially when I so seldom heard expressions of gratitude, or praise, or even "healp me bear this" prayers.

I'm no longer a member of any congregation, so there is no "flock" to which I belong. I will say I've lost whatever respect I ever had for clergy who use word games, slogans, and cant phrases as anodynes.

Posted by Komensky (# 8675) on :

So, we might be talking about the difference between prayers and incantation.

Posted by Fr Weber (# 13472) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:

quote:
Originally posted by deano:
Every prayer gets answered
Even though
Sometimes the answer is… no.

Brad Paisley
This gives us a terrible god - one I would never worship.

"Sometimes you confuse me with Santa Claus
It's the big white beard, I suppose"

--Elvis Costello

Posted by The Midge (# 2398) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
I'm no longer a member of any congregation, so there is no "flock" to which I belong. I will say I've lost whatever respect I ever had for clergy who use word games, slogans, and cant phrases as anodynes.

Good for you. I would too- but am still trying to engage with church.

Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on :

His will is in more righteousness, more justice, more freedom, more love, more understanding, more wisdom, more humility, more encouragement, more patience, more hope, more fidelity, more trustworthiness, more courage, more trust, more grace, more forgiveness, more gratitude, more generosity. As we die of cancer. As the economy and the politics get nastier. In our aging.

NOTHING else. What on Earth, in Heaven's name do we need more of apart from Him in us?

[ 08. February 2013, 23:18: Message edited by: Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard ]

Posted by Flossymole (# 17339) on :

posted by Boogie
Stuff happens, God doesn't control it, not any of it.
Sometimes he seems to. See last Sunday's 'Songs of Praise' BBC1 - about halfway through - the figure that got into the crashed car, seen by (and obeyed by) ambulance crew as well as injured man.

Posted by George Spigot (# 253) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Flossymole:
posted by Boogie
Stuff happens, God doesn't control it, not any of it.
Sometimes he seems to. See last Sunday's 'Songs of Praise' BBC1 - about halfway through - the figure that got into the crashed car, seen by (and obeyed by) ambulance crew as well as injured man.

What?

UBB.classic^TM 6.5.0