|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: Use of names
|
Tukai
Shipmate
# 12960
|
Posted
In the thread on "Licenses and C of E weddings", there has been a tangent about in what way do you like to be named.
For example, if a stranger (such as a hospital nurse) calls you only by your Christian name, do you think this is rude or normal (or both!)
Or if you are a married woman who has retained your maiden name, how do you respond to an invitation addressed to "Mr and Mrs John HusbandsSurname" ?
Host Gwai has suggested that this topic may warrant a separate thread, so here it is.
My own gripe is that the name on my legal documents (passport, driving license etc) is a long form of the short name by which I have been known all my life. So I have to make airline bookings etc in that name, and then get "greeted" by it. Does anyone else have this problem (or even the more severe form, quite common in the Pacific Islands, in which one's "passport name" bears no apparent relation to the names people know you by) ?
--------------------
A government that panders to the worst instincts of its people degrades the whole country for years to come.
Posts: 594 | From: Oz | Registered: Sep 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Liopleurodon
Mighty sea creature
# 4836
|
Posted
I'm not really fussed if people call me [firstname] or Mrs Liopleurodon. One thing I have noticed, though - which I wasn't expecting - is that people in a professional setting (medical staff, customer service people, etc) were much, much more likely to address me by [firstname] before I got married. Those same people seem to call me Mrs Liopleurodon now. It's as though they've filed me into a more grown up category since the change of title, which I find a bit depressing.
Posts: 1921 | From: Lurking under the ship | Registered: Aug 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Sighthound
Shipmate
# 15185
|
Posted
Doesn't bother me much. They have to call me something. As long as they aren't going out of their way to be disrespectful or patronising, I'm fine with it.
I think this is partly a generation thing. Little kids feel free to address me by my Christian name, something I would never have tried on any adult when I was a youngster. But I'm an easy-going sort, so I don't mind being treated as an equal by an eight-year old. They can call me 'comrade' for all I care!
[ 07. February 2013, 09:54: Message edited by: Sighthound ]
--------------------
Supporter of Tia Greyhound and Lurcher Rescue.http://tiagreyhounds.org/
Posts: 168 | From: England | Registered: Sep 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Lord Jestocost
Shipmate
# 12909
|
Posted
I was taken aback when the ambulance people who attended my 90+ grandmother after she fell and broke her hip addressed her by her first name. I wouldn't have had a problem with it if I was in her place, but after a long life in upper middle class society I knew she would find it disrespectful. She was always Mrs Surname until she knew you better.
I would have thought the least they could do was ask one of the family members who were present what would be the best way to address her.
Posts: 761 | From: The Instrumentality of Man | Registered: Aug 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
|
Posted
I think it's a generational thing too, since I am quite surprised it's considered rude to use someone's first name without asking. I have no problems with being addressed by my first name because it means I'm not being called Miss instead of Ms - and I have gone by Ms all my life.
--------------------
Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Anyuta
Shipmate
# 14692
|
Posted
I would prefer that people call me Ms Lastname unless they know me, particularly children. However, my last name is extremely hard for an English speaker to pronounce properly when they read it. I generally don't care enough to make a fuss, or even think about it much, but I guess I'm old enough to think that's more respectful. I definitely don't like company policies that require waiters or cashiers or whoever to use first names for customers. they don't know me, I don't know them, it's not respectful. if the individual does it on their own, I may not like it but it's not a big deal. But I feel companies should know better. I also don't like it when waiters etc. expect me to use their first name, however I would equally feel odd to have them inform me of their last name. frankly, I don't care what your name is, just serve me my food! (not that I would say that, it's a minor annoyance, not a big deal). I don't think I've ever addressed a waiter or other similar staff by name in any case. ever. not unless I knew them outside that setting. I feel disrespectfull calling a waiter I just met "John", but I feel silly calling them Mr. Smith (assuming I even know hes or her lastname).
My last name is not that of my husband and children. My kids teachers and others who know me primarily through my children often adress me as Mrs or Ms Husbandslastname. I may or may not correct them. Usually not if it's a one time contact, but yes if it's someone that I expect to hear from or meet again with any kind of regularity. I always introduce myself to teachers etc as Ms. Lastname, Dimitri's mom, to make it clear. Even if I"ve told them before, when I write an email or some other communication, I always repeat, knowing that they have a lot of parents and can't keep track of which ones have different last names from the kids.
I would be offended, but not in a major way, and more surprised than anything to be adresses as Ms Hisfirstname hislastname. If there is an opportunity, I will definitely make a correction, an point out that I don't care for it, but I wouldn't make a huge deal.
I have slightly different attitudes in the Russian community. Of course formal/informal address is different in that culture, but it's also becoming less and less formal.
the proper formal address for someone (respectful) is not Mr or Ms lastname, but rather Firstname Patronymic. so that is what you would call your teacher or your boss. If you were a kid close to a person you call them the equivalent of aunti or unkle firstname. Since the Russian community here is fairly tight (or at least the corner of it to which I belong), pretty much everyone fell into the aunti/unkle category. I remember my old piano teacher being HORRIBLY offended that I as a child would use the informal address to him (thou vs you).
I have to admit I was a bit taken aback to hear my son address the mother of a friend of his by her first name. this mother is roughly my age (probably somewhat younger), and came from Russia, rather than growing up here as I did. so I assumed she would be less likely to use the informal. but she apparently asked my son to use just the first name. Now, her son addresses me just by my first name because I am his scout leader and that is the custom. with some of the scouts who came directly from Russia, this was something they really had trouble adjusting to. they didn't feel comfortable with it (and I never pushed). but with this younger group who were born here (or came here very young), apparently it's different.
I'm far enough south in the US, and have enough contact with people from deeper parts of the south that I have encountered the phenomenon of "Miss Firstname". I know that is their version of relatively formal address, so I certainly don't mind it. I never even gave it much thought untill a co worker who hadn't encountered this before asked about it.
Posts: 764 | From: USA | Registered: Mar 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
|
Posted
My uncle has been known by his middle name all his life. He gets very annoyed when complete strangers address him by his first name!
--------------------
"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
Posts: 12860 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
que sais-je
Shipmate
# 17185
|
Posted
My wife and I respond to either our own or the other's surnames and so far, well that's only thirty years, there's never been a problem for either of us.
I always put 'Dr' in front of my name when complaining about something. Don't know if it has any affect and always feel vaguely guilty. A PhD in Maths doesn't really deserve a different response from anyone else (unless I'm complaining about certain rather esoteric properties of algebraic numbers).
Anyone here admit to putting 'Rev' or whatever in the hope of being taken more seriously?
--------------------
"controversies, disputes, and argumentations, both in philosophy and in divinity, if they meet with discreet and peaceable natures, do not infringe the laws of charity" (Thomas Browne)
Posts: 794 | From: here or there | Registered: Jun 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
the giant cheeseburger
Shipmate
# 10942
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by que sais-je:
Anyone here admit to putting 'Rev' or whatever in the hope of being taken more seriously?
Don't know about anybody on here, but there's a current thread in hell about a woman in the USA who did - and had it bite her on the arse.
--------------------
If I give a homeopathy advocate a really huge punch in the face, can the injury be cured by giving them another really small punch in the face?
Posts: 4834 | From: Adelaide, South Australia. | Registered: Jan 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
|
Posted
There is a cultural aspect and a 'where you live' aspect. When the doctor, politician, priest, judge etc are one generation removed from living on an impoverished farm, where there's never been any social class structure, and in fact a clear anti-old money and status culture, first names are the usual. Only old age + status may get a Mr, Ms, Rev or Dr. You will hear Judge or Your Honour in a court of law.
University professors are first names with graduate students. So are physicians with patients probably 80% of time. All priests are too. If a title is used, it is in the form of "Rev./ Dr." followed by first name.
It's a "no one is better than anyone else" mentality. It is pervasive. I'm noticed as we go east of Saskatchewan, it lessens, even in Winnipeg, with Ontario being different. I've found the Maritimes and Nfld outside of Halifax (which reminds of Winnipeg - just a wee bit more formal) to be more flat structured in terms of social class like the west. Can't speak to Europe much, except that I do get "Herr Doktor" from my relatives who like like tease.
--------------------
Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
la vie en rouge
Parisienne
# 10688
|
Posted
This is a generational thing, but also a cultural one. I think the laid-back, call people by their firstnames thing is much more common in the anglosaxon world.
While I wouldn't be shocked for a medical professional in the UK to call me by my first name, I think I would expect a medical professional in France to call me Mme Surname. Which is possibly inconsistent of me, or maybe shows the way we adapt our expectations to the cultural context we find ourselves in.
Maybe this is linked (like Anyuta has already mentioned) to the fact that English doesn't have different registers of address in the same way that other languages do? In any professional context (hospital, tax office, whatever) it would be highly inappropriate for anyone to call me 'tu' and not 'vous' without my express permission, which is perhaps linked to my expectation of being Mme Surname, not Firstname.
--------------------
Rent my holiday home in the South of France
Posts: 3696 | Registered: Nov 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
The Kat in the Hat
Shipmate
# 2557
|
Posted
My father in law has always been called by his middle name. It annoys me that despite telling various hospital departments this, the staff still call out his first name. As his surname is quite common, we often have to check that it is him they are waiting for.
Apparently "the computer" is unable to provide a "would like to be called" option, and legally his name is his first name (according to the hospital). ![[Mad]](angryfire.gif)
--------------------
Less is more ...
Posts: 485 | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Zacchaeus
Shipmate
# 14454
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Jestocost:
I was taken aback when the ambulance people who attended my 90+ grandmother after she fell and broke her hip addressed her by her first name. I wouldn't have had a problem with it if I was in her place, but after a long life in upper middle class society I knew she would find it disrespectful. She was always Mrs Surname until she knew you better.
I would have thought the least they could do was ask one of the family members who were present what would be the best way to address her.
My grandmother was always called Mrs Lastname, even with her lifelong best friend with whom she had shared everything (even to delivering each others babies in the days before the NHS) they called each other by the formal Mrs Lastname. The only person who had ever used her first name was my grandfather.
So I was completely horrified when back in the 90’s in her last illness, my 85 year old grandmother was routinely addressed by hospital staff as Firstname, nobody ever asked what to call her they just all used her firstname. It always seemed disrespectful to me, for the staff to be using a name even her own son’s and daughter in laws didn’t use.
Posts: 1905 | From: the back of beyond | Registered: Jan 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
I think it's a generational thing too, since I am quite surprised it's considered rude to use someone's first name without asking. [QB]
I think the turning point in England came sometime between my parents generation and my generation. I've never been used to using titles and surnames at work (though we did at school - teachers were always Mr This or Miss that) I'm in my fifties. Things might have been different for people of my parents age, who would now be in their eighties. When I was first at university, in the 1970s we were perhaps in the middle of the change. Some lecturers (though not many of them) would call students Mr or Ms, most woudl use their first name. Going the other way there was still a tendency to call academics "Dr so-and-so" or "Professor Thingummy" but it was going out of fashion and students were on first name terms with some of them. I work in a university now, and I think its pretty much first names all round, except at very ceremonial occasions such as graduation ceremonies. Though the master of our college does often get called "The Master" in the third person I think most of us woudl call him by time if we were talking to him rather than about him (not completely sure about that as I don't get to talk to him much outside large meetings)
The change was probably because we have a cultural tendency to see formality as distancing, and I think its growing stronger. So using titles and surnames can feel a bit rude. It says "you aren't one of us". Its the reverse side of the going from using swear words among friends - the apparent rudeness is really the opposite, because the informality is felt as inclusionary.
For some reason it felt right to use the rather pompous pseudo-academic word "inclusionary" in that sentence rather than the more normal "inclusive". I wonder why? Maybe because "inclusive" has got overtones of "everyone is allowed in our group whoever they are" which is not what such social practices do. Using extremely informal language among members of a social group implies that you are in fact a member of the group - but that doesn't mean that everyone else is. In fact things like swearing canb be used for the opposite effect, it can make those who aren't members of the group feel uncomfortable, and so draw the boundary lines. Which is one of the social functions of slang and swearing.
quote:
Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
[QB] This is a generational thing, but also a cultural one. I think the laid-back, call people by their firstnames thing is much more common in the anglosaxon world.
Yes, definitely. I know I've said this here before, but when I worked for an American company, the Americans were much more likley to use titles like "Mr. Surname" than the British in the same office were. Although both groups normally used first names at work, and reverted to title+surname when there was a large social distance between the speakers, the Americans seemed to need less distance to feel comfortable with titles. And unlike us they can call people "sir". That's vanishingly rare in Britain nowadays unless either or both the parties are wearing uniform. Its sort of a sign of being part of a heirarchical organisation under some code of discipline - schools, police, army, prisons. Shop staff might use "sir" or "madam" to customers, but I think most don't, and some of us (including me) would feel a bit uncomfortable if it was used to us.
Among the English-speaking countries I get the impression that the Australians are the least formal (at least in work situations), and the Irish not far from them, and the Americans the most formal. Old books and films sometimes make jokes about the English being more formal than Americans, but we seem to have moved from one camp to the other recently, and are now much less formal than Americans and almost as informal as Australians.
--------------------
Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Old books and films sometimes make jokes about the English being more formal than Americans, but we seem to have moved from one camp to the other recently, and are now much less formal than Americans and almost as informal as Australians.
It's much more common to hear people called "sir" or "madam" in the USA than in the UK.
--------------------
"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
Posts: 12860 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Old books and films sometimes make jokes about the English being more formal than Americans, but we seem to have moved from one camp to the other recently, and are now much less formal than Americans and almost as informal as Australians.
In the US, 50 years ago, newspapers used courtesy titles for white people, and did not use courtesy titles black people. That same sort of pattern existed throughout society: in general, the use of courtesy titles or not was one of the informal markers of a highly segregated society.
During the Civil Rights revolution, most newspapers quit referring to people differently based on their race. But most were more discomfited by the idea of giving courtesy titles to blacks than they were by stripping courtesy titles from whites. So the standard journalistic style now is not to use courtesy titles. (The New York Times and a few other large newspapers chose to begin using courtesy titles for everyone; that usage sometimes seems quaint and old-fashioned.)
--------------------
I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
|
Posted
American here, and only in my forties, so I've grown up with the first-name-used-without-permission thing, but have never been able to bring myself to do it. When cornered (as at work) I use either no name at all (which is awkward) or the full firstname lastname (speaking about someone I mean; not to them). "Sir" and "Ma'am" are normal to use for people I don't know. Better overformal than overfamiliar!
This is complicated by the second culture I live in, where the most respect is shown by referring to a person as Mr/Ms Firstname, and it's only after you know each other well that you discover the surname--which may take years, and which is NOT the same for everybody in a single nuclear family. Got to keep my cultures straight when I'm talking to people.
Children in either culture can slide over the whole mess by referring to Auntie So-and-so, or Uncle Whozit. And "Miss Firstname" is the usual response of my son to any adult woman who invites him to be on a first name basis, regardless of that person's marital status.
--------------------
Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
|
Posted
Others are right in thinking that much of this is generational and can vary from place to place.
I am accustomed to being Firstnamed by most people, although I happily correct those with whom I am doing business (especially on the telephone) to remind them to call me Mr Aleut. When they protest that they are just being friendly, I point out that it is a business call, not a friendly one; while I respect their motive in seeking my business and making money out of me, they should respect me back. I do not think that they understand this, but normally comply, and get down to business more readily than before.
Part of this is me being annoying, but partly from growing up in eastern Ontario where my father, in his pharmacy, always called customers Mr and Mrs (which had an interesting side-effect at his funeral, which featured about 40 mourners from the local Six Nations reserve-- one of the older Indians said that it was because he was one of the few businessmen who, in the 50s, called Indian customers Mr or Mrs).
I don't use names of waitstaff, no matter how much their nametags implore me to do so, but I will speak with them respectfully and professionally-- just because they are making $10/hr plus what I feel like giving them, does not make me better than they are and does not make them slaves.
I remember my tutor at Trinity College, Dublin, asking me, as soon as I had my degree, to please call him Firstname. My GP, who has been poking me for a quarter of a century, firstnames me, but makes a point of Mr Aleut around interns, nurses, etc. Occasionally a younger intern will try Firstname, and I happily instruct them differently.
As well, working in French for many years, I had quite finessed vous and tu, and was accustomed to degrees of formality (or very subtle insult) in terms of address. With self-referential ludic discourse, friends of my former political past get called Comrade, and they Comrade me back, usually to the puzzlement of onlookers.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Pulsator Organorum Ineptus
Shipmate
# 2515
|
Posted
I'm another who suffers from having a first name that isn't the name I am called by. Nor is any abbreviation of it what I answer to, so I would much rather you didn't try that either, Nurse Henderson.
I seem to remember that General H Normal Schwarzkopf told an interviewer that "H" didn't stand for anything: his father had registered his forenames as "H" and "Norman" because he was pissed off at being called by his first name when his middle name was the one he was know by.
I am sorely tempted to change my first name by deed poll to W.
Posts: 695 | From: Bronteland | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Better overformal than overfamiliar!
That's what's changed. To a lot of British people, I guess mostly those born since the war, over-formal seems belittling or excluding or insulting in a way that over-familiar doesn't.
And I'm another one whose usual name is not the first one on the birth certificate. Same goes for my brother.
--------------------
Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
|
Posted
I have been called by my 2nd name all my life. So had my father and his before him. There are contexts where it is expectable for people to use your 1st name, and a more forgiving attitude is required. How can they possibly know?
I've been in several situations where people have seen my first name and decided to use a common nickname for it, which only adds to confusion, and probably not quite the right idea. But again, their calling me by any name is preferable to sitting and waiting for longer, and has no comment on the quality of service or the dignity of subsequent interactions with them. Stupids have called me by my middle name, and good folks have called me by my first.
The fact that you may feel offended by something someone else says, even if it's a botch on your name, is more your problem than their's.
--------------------
Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
|
Posted
A slight tangent is newspaper house style. Not so long ago (and for all I know some papers maybe still do it) everybody who was not a criminal or a child got referred to by Title + Surname. Then IIRC they began to give even convicted criminals that courtesy (and why not?). More recently, men generally got surname only, while women were accorded Ms or Mrs. Presumably that too was seen as discriminatory so everyone (except Mr and Mrs Windsor I think) is referred to without title in many papers, especially the Guardian.
On the other hand, news broadcasters (I'm thinking of the BBC's Nick Robinson) seem to refer to politicians invariably as Firstname Surname. 'David Cameron' at first mention would be OK, but both names every time seems a bit OTT. And would even with a less rebarbative politician.
--------------------
Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
|
Posted
Of course, Quakers always did (and some still do) make a point of NOT using titles when referring to people - not out of rudeness but in a spirit of egalitarianism.
--------------------
Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Better overformal than overfamiliar!
That's what's changed. To a lot of British people, I guess mostly those born since the war, over-formal seems belittling or excluding or insulting in a way that over-familiar doesn't.
And I'm another one whose usual name is not the first one on the birth certificate. Same goes for my brother.
Just.Wow.
There's only one case I can think of where being overly formal translates into insult in my own context, and that's where a person has behaved in such a way that I revoke (spoken or unspoken) the first name privilege I may have given him/her in the past. So if someone I usually call John in real life suddenly finds himself addressed by me as "Mr. Johnson," he should realize he is in the shit. Similarly if I begin signing off my messages to him with my last name. And all the more so if I suddenly start adding my title! (yes, I know that's bad manners, but I AM bad mannered occasionally)
On the other hand, I cannot use this method to insult someone with whom I have never been on a first name basis, because the insult consists in the withdrawal of privilege--not the failure to grant it in the first place. You can't conclude anything from the fact that I address X as Mr. X and have done so for fifty years. We may hate each other, we may be having a wild passionate affair in private, you just wouldn't know from the terms of address. Uninterrupted formal address is simply ordinary courtesy (again, YMMV and obviously does).
One thing that really bugs me about the "let's all be on first name basis immediately" idea is that it allows no room for a relationship to progress--or perhaps I should say, for the progression to be signalized. If I just barge in and start using your first name without any asking or granting, I've robbed you of the chance to say, "Oh, do call me Ebenezer, won't you?" It's rather like barging into your living room and sprawling on your couch instead of waiting for you to invite me in.
--------------------
Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tukai:
For example, if a stranger (such as a hospital nurse) calls you only by your Christian name, do you think this is rude or normal (or both!)
I could so easily write a diatribe about how society is going to hell in a handcart (which I'll try to avoid doing) but this is one of those things that really, really annoys me (and at 31 I think I'm supposed to be one of the younger generation who love speaking on first name terms).
I booked a hotel room recently and the receptionist referred to me throughout as 'Thomas', which was doubly annoying as not only was it overly-familiar, but everyone I know calls me Tom.
I dislike it in situations where I'm the customer or the patient. One of the concierges in the block of flats where I live addresses me by my Christian name (all the others say 'hello Sir' or some such). While it's great that she knows me by name, it always jars slightly.
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
|
Posted
The only time anyone uses my given name (Margaret) is when I'm in trouble! I have only ever been called Mags since my Dad used the nickname when I was tiny.
I agree with Ken, over-formal seems rude and presumptuous. Give me the name I go by, not one you think I should go by.
--------------------
Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Heavenly Anarchist
Shipmate
# 13313
|
Posted
As mentioned on the other thread, I was an outpatients sister until about 6 years ago. I always called out patients' full names as this was the best way of ensuring the correct patient answered their name. But I then called them Sir or Madam, or by their title and surname, when face to face until told otherwise. If in doubt of a female title I used Ms. Addressing strangers by their first name is very presumptious, IMO. Saying that, many patients laughed when I called them Sir or Madam and asked me to use their first name, regardless of age. This was especially true of working class patients.
--------------------
'I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by.' Douglas Adams
Dog Activity Monitor
My shop
Posts: 2831 | From: Trumpington | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
I agree with Ken, over-formal seems rude and presumptuous. Give me the name I go by, not one you think I should go by.
Okay, really want to understand here. How rude? and particularly, how presumptuous?
My understanding of the term "presumptuous" is that it means "to presume; to take privileges that the other person has not in fact granted to you." Which is exactly what my using your first name without your clear permission would be. And for the same reason that my barging into your home, or going through your refrigerator, without permission, would be presumptuous. It is not for me to set the terms of engagement here, it is for you--because it is your name.
Now if you grant that permission--"Oh call me Boogie"--then everything changes, and I am free to do so, maybe even obligated to do so, because again, it is your choice and you have now made your preference clear. But how dare I assume/presume ahead of time what your choice will be, when I haven't even asked you yet, or heard you make any statement about your choice? Without ESP, I could easily be offending you. Which is why agreed upon social conventions are handy (would that we still had them, but never mind).
--------------------
Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
I agree with Ken, over-formal seems rude and presumptuous. Give me the name I go by, not one you think I should go by.
Okay, really want to understand here. How rude? and particularly, how presumptuous?
My understanding of the term "presumptuous" is that it means "to presume; to take privileges that the other person has not in fact granted to you." Which is exactly what my using your first name without your clear permission would be. And for the same reason that my barging into your home, or going through your refrigerator, without permission, would be presumptuous. It is not for me to set the terms of engagement here, it is for you--because it is your name.
Now if you grant that permission--"Oh call me Boogie"--then everything changes, and I am free to do so, maybe even obligated to do so, because again, it is your choice and you have now made your preference clear. But how dare I assume/presume ahead of time what your choice will be, when I haven't even asked you yet, or heard you make any statement about your choice? Without ESP, I could easily be offending you. Which is why agreed upon social conventions are handy (would that we still had them, but never mind).
It is surely presumptuous to assume people want to be known by Title FirstName.
--------------------
Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
|
Posted
Oh, just more grist for the general mill--many years ago I was on an attempted murder trial jury where the man was plainly guilty, but some of my less-than-brilliant colleagues were arguing that we couldn't convict anyone of anything, regardless of overwhelming evidence, in the absence of a fully-spelled-out confession of the "Yes, I did it, and I'm proud!" variety (too many TV shows I think). We were hung up for five hours, and I'm convinced that the only reason I was able to swing them in the end was that I consistently referred to the victim as Ms. X rather than using her first name, as all the other white jury members were doing. (Data: victim was black, jury was mixed, but black members consistently used the formal terms of address for the victim, while the white members--except me--used the first name as a matter of course.)
The judge was astonished and grateful when we got back with a verdict which he clearly considered the right one. He had no great opinion of our intelligence either, and had had grave fears for the outcome.
[ 07. February 2013, 18:32: Message edited by: Lamb Chopped ]
--------------------
Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Graven Image
Shipmate
# 8755
|
Posted
I am in my mid 70's on visit to 40 ish MD he called me by my first name, " Hello Graven, " No problem until he added. " I am Dr. Smith."
Posts: 2641 | From: Third planet from the sun. USA | Registered: Nov 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
I agree with Ken, over-formal seems rude and presumptuous. Give me the name I go by, not one you think I should go by.
Okay, really want to understand here. How rude? and particularly, how presumptuous?
Because if you don't know the name I go by you should ask. "What would you like me to call you?" is the polite way imo.
Just assuming that, even though they know my name is Mags, I should be called 'Margaret' because that's the 'correct' form is rude. When folks do this I ignore them then say "Sorry, I didn't think you meant me - I'm Mags, not Margaret"
--------------------
Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
It is surely presumptuous to assume people want to be known by Title FirstName.
I assume this is a reference to my minor son's usage to adult females? We happen to live in a geographical area where this is the default courtesy for minors; at most it might be considered overly polite, quaint, or charming. (Yes, he also holds open doors for anyone older than himself, and he says please and thank you and writes thank you notes.)
Granted, if we lived in a different region this might be inappropriate; but we've never had a single person remark on the courtesy except in terms of being enchanted and wishing to bestow cookies, etc. upon him (which naturally he thinks is a Very Good Thing). As he becomes an adult he will certainly wind up in the quagmire the rest of us find ourselves in, so I'm glad he has this "out" for the time being.
--------------------
Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Because if you don't know the name I go by you should ask. "What would you like me to call you?" is the polite way imo.
Just assuming that, even though they know my name is Mags, I should be called 'Margaret' because that's the 'correct' form is rude. When folks do this I ignore them then say "Sorry, I didn't think you meant me - I'm Mags, not Margaret"
I am speaking (as I thought you were) of cases such as the one where you're in the doctor's office and some poor flunky has to call out the name of the next patient to be ushered in--often a first time visitor, with no information of preferred mode of address on file. There is simply no wieldy (?) way of saying "Would the person listed as Firstname LastName please disclose his or her preferred term of address so that I can indicate to him or her that his or her phlebotomist is waiting to draw blood down the hall?"
Alternately, the paperboy who must ask for Firstname Lastname at the front door of the house in order to request payment, who has never met F/L before, and who is very concerned about not offending a customer who is probably not entirely happy about having to break off cooking dinner or balancing accounts to rake through pocket change anyway.
Personally, I answer to anything but John or Charlie. And those are out only because my Uncle X (aka Aunt Matilda) used to tease us with those names. Why make others miserable? Assume good motives, correct gently as needed, and get on with life.
--------------------
Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
The Kat in the Hat
Shipmate
# 2557
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
I have been called by my 2nd name all my life. So had my father and his before him. There are contexts where it is expectable for people to use your 1st name, and a more forgiving attitude is required. How can they possibly know?
I've been in several situations where people have seen my first name and decided to use a common nickname for it, which only adds to confusion, and probably not quite the right idea. But again, their calling me by any name is preferable to sitting and waiting for longer, and has no comment on the quality of service or the dignity of subsequent interactions with them. Stupids have called me by my middle name, and good folks have called me by my first.
The fact that you may feel offended by something someone else says, even if it's a botch on your name, is more your problem than their's.
I'm not sure if you are referring to my post with this reply, but if you are, I was annoyed by the fact that the system apparently has no way of allowing staff to know what a patient would prefer to be called, but assumes that it must be their first name.
--------------------
Less is more ...
Posts: 485 | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
|
Posted
Yes--crappy computer systems are a pain. My husband has four names and has basically accustomed himself to being called by the wrong one every single time, because there is rarely a "preferred" spot, and guessers have a one in four chance. Fortunately he doesn't mind, since he assumes people are trying the best they can.
--------------------
Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mama Thomas
Shipmate
# 10170
|
Posted
In my part of the world it seems only medical doctors and school teachers get called by their titles. I would prefer to be addressed as "father" or "Father Thomas" but since only medical doctors and teachers get a title around here, I had better learn not to sweat it. Anyway, many Protestants around here seem to think "call no man father" is the eleventh commandment and using that term for clergy is a Mark of the Beast. I'm really not exaggerating on this.
I can't think of a child who would call anyone but a teacher (other than a relative) by their last name.
Television and movie characters call their relative, "uncle", "aunt" and "cousin" which I think is somewhat rare in these parts. Relatives just use their first names except for parents and grandparents, who often get a pet name of some kind.
I know people who prefer to be called "Robert" or "William" and are irked when someone immediately starts calling them "Bob" or "Bill" without asking. I don't think I know a case where an "Elizabeth" is called "Betty" without being prompted.
"Sir" or "ma'am" is in my experience frequently used by wait staff and young people to elders who are strangers, but if the wait staff and young people know the elders, it is usually first name.
--------------------
All hearts are open, all desires known
Posts: 3742 | From: Somewhere far away | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Anyuta
Shipmate
# 14692
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Yes--crappy computer systems are a pain. My husband has four names and has basically accustomed himself to being called by the wrong one every single time, because there is rarely a "preferred" spot, and guessers have a one in four chance. Fortunately he doesn't mind, since he assumes people are trying the best they can.
The funniest example for me:
I have no middle name. It's not a Russian custom.. we use Patronymics instead. Some men use their patronymic as a middle name, but with women it's harder.. in English it would either sound wierdly Russian, or just wierd to have a male middle name.
I am, properly, Anna Nikolaevna Lastnamefeminine form. but legally I'm just Anna Lastname (no feminine form)
OK, so.. I once got a letter.. invitation to apply for a credit card, and it was addressed to:
Anna None Lastname.
I guess some computer somewhere prompted someone to enter my middle name, and they said "none". I kid you not, this really happened. Since then, I've received others where they used the middle initial N. I used to think that was supposed to represent my patronymic (which also starts with an N), but after that incident, I began to think it's an initial for my new middle name: "None"
Posts: 764 | From: USA | Registered: Mar 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
|
Posted
A boss's first name legally is Mary but she goes by her middle name, Beth. It was handy on the job, when I answered her phone and told her "he wants to speak to Mary" she knew before the first word this was a stranger.
But when I went to see an old lady friend I knew as Tillie in hospice, the staff didn't know any resident by that name. Good thing I had been told (at the last minute) her real name, yes they did have a Matilda, and the staff lady beamed and said "we call her Mattie." I thought, old age strips you of everything, even your name.
I used to feel first name use by strangers "forward" but I guess I've gotten used to it, except for an uncomfortable imbalance if a professional is calling me by first name; is it OK to call him/her by first name or am I supposed to say Dr. Jones? I should ask a 30-something, it's their culture, it's not the one I grew up in, I need to adjust to what is.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Twangist
Shipmate
# 16208
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Kat in the Hat:
My father in law has always been called by his middle name. It annoys me that despite telling various hospital departments this, the staff still call out his first name. As his surname is quite common, we often have to check that it is him they are waiting for.
Apparently "the computer" is unable to provide a "would like to be called" option, and legally his name is his first name (according to the hospital).
That is a cross I also have to bare - (thanks Ma and Pa).
Trying to convice the jobsworth in the bank that my Grandmother really knew who she was making the cheque out to for me last birthday was a struggle ..... I tend to have an ontological crisis every birthday anyway.
--------------------
JJ
SDG
blog
Posts: 604 | From: Devon | Registered: Feb 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Better overformal than overfamiliar!
That's what's changed. To a lot of British people, I guess mostly those born since the war, over-formal seems belittling or excluding or insulting in a way that over-familiar doesn't. *snip*
Another case where region calls the difference. In Ottawa office settings, one always begins with Madame X, who will normally (even at a Director-General to clerk distance) then say, "Call me Lucie-- we are colleagues-- with us, we use the tu." But to start with Lucie would be considered odd to dysfunctional to rude or wishing to prove a point.
Then walking down the corridor and speaking with a western or Toronto-ish Canadian, the first name is de rigeur, and to use formal address would be exactly as Ken speaks. Turning the corner into a set of cubicles and meeting African or West Indian colleagues, it is always formal address on first acquaintance, or on introducing people-- then the invitation to use their first name, perhaps after a week. Sitting down to deal with a client or applicant, formal address always-- immigrants often seem to prefer to continue with that as acknowledgement of a formal context, but Canadian-born anglophones will usually switch to Call me Chuck.
So being a federal bureaucrat often required sophisticated protocol and cultural anthropological skills. And I will not even touch Camino events where I must distinguish between pilgrim prelates and remember that having seen a Spanish bishop in their underclothing does not exempt you from referring to them as Grandeza or Don Belisario, but with an Acadian RC bishop, It's Jean-Marc and use the tu.
I sometimes wonder why I have an identity crisis.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
But when I went to see an old lady friend I knew as Tillie in hospice, the staff didn't know any resident by that name. Good thing I had been told (at the last minute) her real name, yes they did have a Matilda, and the staff lady beamed and said "we call her Mattie." I thought, old age strips you of everything, even your name.
My mother-in-law was always called 'Ann' although her real name was Hannah. She used to dislike that name intensely, until she went into a care home and was immediately addressed by it. She took to it and adopted her new identity with pride!
My initials (first and middle names) are D E. The utility bills always come addressed to Mr De Angloid as if I were a minor member of the French aristocracy.
--------------------
Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ondergard
Shipmate
# 9324
|
Posted
I've noticed that in many American tv programmes, characters refer to each other by surname only most of the time... (the example I am thinking of is House, actually "Wilson, Foreman, Cuddy, Chase...") and I've noticed it in others too, Is this normal in ordinary American society?
It was totally normal to do that when I went to an all-boys school back in the 1970's, but when we joined with the girls school next door, it was noticeable that all the boys got called by their surnames and all the girls by their given names when the register was called!
As we got older, we tended to get called by our nicknames (even, perhaps especially, if we didn't like them). Forty years later and one of my friends is still called Eggman for no good reason that I can remember!
Posts: 276 | From: Essex | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Bostonman
Shipmate
# 17108
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
I should ask a 30-something, it's their culture, it's not the one I grew up in, I need to adjust to what is.
I'm a twenty-something so maybe I don't count, but we're at least as confused as the rest of you. I've been working closely with my thesis advisor for a year and still have no idea what to call him, although I'd default to "Professor _____." He signs his correspondence with initials, which helps.
One of the things I love most about my parish is that the Prayers of the People are always first names, particularly "for Deval our Governor and Barack our President." Maybe I'm a bit of a Quaker...
Posts: 424 | From: USA | Registered: May 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bostonman:
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
I should ask a 30-something, it's their culture, it's not the one I grew up in, I need to adjust to what is.
I'm a twenty-something so maybe I don't count, but we're at least as confused as the rest of you. I've been working closely with my thesis advisor for a year and still have no idea what to call him, although I'd default to "Professor _____." He signs his correspondence with initials, which helps.
Call the thesis advisor Dr. or Professor if he wears a jacket and tie. If he wears t-shirts or opens the top button of a shirt with a collar without a tie, use his first name. If he wears a tie and no jacket, you're screwed and I have no idea. Maybe ask him why he's violated the dress code. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
--------------------
Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
I am speaking (as I thought you were) of cases such as the one where you're in the doctor's office and some poor flunky has to call out the name of the next patient to be ushered in--often a first time visitor, with no information of preferred mode of address on file.
The flunky calls me 'Mrs Margaret Smith' which is fine by me. He has no choice - it's what's on file. Mind you, there are so many of us it's not that unusual to sit next to another one - there are three in our (small) church! My husband is John Smith, so he has no hope. He drove a brand new car at age 17 and was often stopped by police (long hair y'know) they never believed his reply to 'what is your name young man?'
The squat we lived in at university (it was the 70s!) was often raided by the police - he got short shrift then too.
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
[ 08. February 2013, 06:18: Message edited by: Boogie ]
--------------------
Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
|
Posted
OK. I dislike receiving letters from organizations, strangers etc that address me simply as "Dear Ariel". We're not friends, we haven't met, it's presuming a relationship you don't have. I don't want to walk into the bank and be addressed by my first name by someone whose identity (and personality) I haven't a clue to. You don't know me.
I also dislike the custom that's sprung up of not using surnames in professional emails or phone calls. You might get an email from someone signed simply "Hannah" (whom you don't know at all) or a message saying "Please ring Chloe at Another Company." Chloe who? The world isn't your front room, you're not the only Chloe in the world, and you're at work, not at home. Some people even address parcels in this way which can cause difficulty when there are several people with the same first name in the building.
If I'm writing to a client for the first time I'll usually begin "Dear [firstname] (if I may?)" and see how they sign off in their response. If they're from a different culture, it'll be "Dear Mr/[whatever title is appropriate]". We can get to the informal bit in the second email/letter if it looks like going that way, but I'd think it unprofessional and impolite to start right off addressing someone as if they were a friend ("Hi John") in what is essentially a business relationship.
The modern informality is just one of those generational things, I think. It'll be interesting to see what the "sticking point" is for today's young people when they reach middle age!
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
bib
Shipmate
# 13074
|
Posted
When I call new patients from the waiting room I always use their full name, but once I'm talking to them privately I ask what they like to be called. I think that is the only courteous way to behave. Some like their first name, others a more formal title. When my late mother was in hospital at the age of 90 she was annoyed to have a very young nurse call her by her first name without permission. Failure to observe the courtesies meant that an old lady felt disrespected and of less value.
--------------------
"My Lord, my Life, my Way, my End, accept the praise I bring"
Posts: 1307 | From: Australia | Registered: Oct 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gracious rebel
Rainbow warrior
# 3523
|
Posted
Does anyone else have some friends and colleagues, that although you know them quite well, you have no idea what their surname is? If people are introduced just with a first name, there are times when you never get to find out the surname. This particularly seems to apply to new partners of friends and family.
For instance my niece is getting married next year. She has just had a baby with her partner, who I know is called Kevin. But someone asked me what the baby's surname was, and I thought, well as they are getting married he will probably have his father's surname, but then I realised I had absolutely no idea what the surname was! I guess I will have to wait for the wedding invitation to find out!
My other problem with names relates to foreigners, not being sure which of the names presented to you is the first name, which the surname etc. I frequently have foreigners enquiring by email through an agency, about my holiday flat (see sig), and when I write back I find it very difficult to know which name/title to use when addressing them.
--------------------
Fancy a break beside the sea in Suffolk? Visit my website
Posts: 4413 | From: Suffolk UK | Registered: Nov 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Pia
Shipmate
# 17277
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Graven Image:
I am in my mid 70's on visit to 40 ish MD he called me by my first name, " Hello Graven, " No problem until he added. " I am Dr. Smith."
This reminds me of something that seems to be 'house style' in the place where I work (an academic institution). On, say, minutes of meetings members of academic staff get their full titles while members of support staff simply get Firstname Lastname; viz. Professor Smith, Dr Jones, Jane Brown. This really bothers me, and if it's ever up to me how these things are set out I insist that either everyone has a title or no-one does, and that the names are set out in alphabetical order, not by 'status'.
Personally, I am very happy for students to call me by my first name and I usually tell them that in our first class, but I've noticed that more and more do so without waiting to be told.
The only other thing that bugs me is when people who know full well that I don't use my husband's name [ ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif) at sister-in-law] insist on addressing me as Mrs Husbandsname. Doesn't bother me at all when people can't be expected to know otherwise, like the receptionist at my kids' school who only knows me as the mother of my children, who go under the name of Little Husbandsname. Sometimes, just to reduce confusion I simply introduce myself as Little Husbandsame's Mother.
In my experience, my children's friends here in the UK are most likely to call me by my first name. When we spent 6 months in the US, however, children invariably called me by my title and surname (and quite often Mrs Husbandsname, for the same reason as the school receptionist above). Even when I invited them to 'Call me Pia' I found they were very unwilling to do so.
[ 08. February 2013, 08:45: Message edited by: Pia ]
Posts: 151 | Registered: Aug 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view
