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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: MW/2361: First Presbyterian, Royal Oak, MI
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
Interesting report, but the reporter's comment about reverencing the altar set me to wondering.
I've never seen that done in a Presbyterian church, although I've seen Presbyterian clergy in cassock and Roman collar. I have, however, witnessed the altar party bowing to the altar in a Congregational church.
Not being well steeped in Protestant tradition myself, I'm wondering if it's always the case that such "Popish" customs are completely absent, or are they more common than the reporter imagines?
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Presbyterianism is odd at least my experience of it in England is. It seems to have quite easily adopted quite a lot of fairly "High" Anglican stances. Some of this may be due to a number of Scots Episcopalians among its number who prefer to worship with Scots than with Episcopalians. Go figure. They certainly frequently in England have altar shaped communion tables rather than clear table shaped ones. Actually the bowing may be a nervous tick, I remember once being told off for doing it when I presented the offering to the Chaplain at college. It feels natural so you do it! Question would be exactly where the Bible was at the time.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
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Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
I am no stranger to Presbie places in this corner of the Midwest, and I have never seen any bowing, let alone genuflections! Carrying the Bible at the head of a procession (chest height, not Catholic deacon height) is rather common around here, it seems.
In Lutheran places, bowing is quite normal. I have only seen genuflection in very high Lutheran places.
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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lily pad
Shipmate
# 11456
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Posted
It certainly wouldn't be common in Canada. I've just been taking a mental tally and realised that I have worshipped in approximately 50 Presbyterian churches on this side of the pond and have never seen any bowing or genuflecting. I'd be surprised to ever hear the communion table referred to as an altar.
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Sloppiness is not caring. Fussiness is caring about the wrong things. With thanks to Adeodatus!
Posts: 2468 | From: Truly Canadian | Registered: May 2006
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
I've about a dozen eastern Ontario (and therefore quite quite Church of Scotland) Presbyterian churches under my belt and I have never scene anything like a bow, let alone a genuflection. I have seen the sign of the cross at the benediction. Choir perambulation can be seen in a few older churches with pretensions or perhaps strongly willed choir directors, but I think it tends to be rareish (I have seen this at S Andrew's on Wellington, kitty-corner to the Parliament buildings, and Renfrew).
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
You asked for Odd. That's St. Andrew's United Church on Bloor Street in Toronto. The name betrays the heritage.
That's astoundingly high for the United Church of Canada.
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
In the Church of Scotland I am more used to seeing "the presbyterian heel-click" - a sort of brief pause before entering the sanctuary and placing the Bible in its place. At least for the most part the C of S ministers I have run into have been pretty faithful to the cassock and gown get up favoured by "moderates" of a couple of generations ago.
My experience of Lutheranism is limited, but they are very like MOTR Anglicans - they like to bow. The only thing that put a burr under my saddle about them locally is their current love affair with oatmeal color assock-albs and dodgy stoles for every possible liturgical function. Cassock and surplice - common enough 30 years ago - would look a lot better.
PD
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Roadkill on the Information Super Highway!
My Assorted Rantings - http://www.theoldhighchurchman.blogspot.com
Posts: 4431 | From: Between a Rock and a Hard Place | Registered: Mar 2007
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
I may have completely missed the point, but the MW really mean a genuflection, ie going down on one knee?
For catholics and like-minded Anglicans, genuflection is usually only to the Blessed Sacrament (or to a bishop when processing by or the cross venerated on Good Friday, but they are rare).
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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daisymay
St Elmo's Fire
# 1480
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Posted
I've never heard of anyone in a Kirk saying "altar"; nor have I experienced it being treated specially. It's always been a wooden one that can be used for flowers and the music paper of the choir people etc. When I was young, in our Kirk, we had communion only twice a year.
The choir I've experienced in lots of places, I've never seen wearing anything other than normal clothes.
Also, still the Bible is carried by someone, just a bit ahead of the minister, and opened up on the pulpit. The ministers don't always wear things other than their usual, normal clothes, but sometimes they do, with their uni wearing, and two white bits down from their neck - what do we call that?
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London
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Posts: 11224 | From: London - originally Dundee, Blairgowrie etc... | Registered: Oct 2001
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by daisymay:
two white bits down from their neck - what do we call that?
Tabs?
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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sonata3
Shipmate
# 13653
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
quote:
Originally posted by daisymay:
two white bits down from their neck - what do we call that?
Tabs?
Or "bands," or "preaching bands."
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"I prefer neurotic people; I like to hear rumblings beneath the surface." Stephen Sondheim
Posts: 386 | From: Between two big lakes | Registered: Apr 2008
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Cottontail
Shipmate
# 12234
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
quote:
Originally posted by daisymay:
two white bits down from their neck - what do we call that?
Tabs?
I got told off for calling them 'tabs'. They are, as I was reliably informed by a personage who knows these things (!), preaching bands. Though I think there might be some kind of pond and/or ecclesial difference in terminology here.
In my experience of the Kirk, the entry (and sometimes exit) of the Bible tends to be found in 'formal low church' places. Informal low church probably wouldn't be too bothered about it; higher church places might process in the choir and the people, but not necessarily the Bible. But each church has its own history and customs, and a new minister probably wouldn't change them unless there was something terrible jarring.
However, I had to stop the elders in my last church from bowing to the table (or perhaps to me!) as they took the Bible out at the end of the service. They weren't meaning anything by it: it was just a solemn task, and it was felt that some sort of gesture was appropriate. But "bowing to the altar" (it is not an "altar") is not common here, and not approved of, and definitely theological bad form for your Reformed Presbyterian, no matter how 'high'.
In St Giles Cathedral in Edinburgh, for example, which is about as high Presbyterian as it is possible to get, an elder carries in the processional cross, followed by the choir, followed by the Beadle, who leads in the clergy. No Bible in the procession at all. But there is also no genuflecting, no kneeling, and no reverencing of the table. Just everything done with dignity and with good order.
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"I don't think you ought to read so much theology," said Lord Peter. "It has a brutalizing influence."
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
I'm a bit unsure in this (for me) liturgically exotic world, but "gown and bands" is a phrase that rings bells.
[ 10. April 2012, 14:16: Message edited by: venbede ]
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
The UCCan will process in the choir if the church is built for it, I've never seen a Bible procession.
Many of our shacks don't have central aisles, many are built with an auditorium plan. My church has the choir room right next to the choir loft behind the chancel, we enter through a side door instead of processing.
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
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PRESBY DUDE
Apprentice
# 16035
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Posted
I agree with the other posters. I'm a very active Presbyterian (in fact, I am the illustrious Presby Dude), and I almost fell off my computer chair when I read the worship review for First Presbyterian in Royal Oak, Michigan.
Genuflecting before an altar? In a Presby church, such action would be so rare as to be almost unthinkable. Do you suppose that the reviewer misinterpreted a slight bow (which I have seen on occasion) and called it a genuflection in error?
And yes, in a Presbyterian congregation, we normally speak of the Communion Table or the People's Table, not an altar. A lot of our members from other denominational traditions, though, still call it an altar out of habit.
That doesn't mean that many (not all) Presbyterian churches don't conduct a formal, "proper" service, though. Our service is a trifle stiff, although I like it that way. Last October, we had a visitor who attended with a member, and this visitor's church background was obviously modern evangelical or Pentecostal.
She seemed "moved" by singing "Great Is Thy Faithfulness" and raised her hands in praise.
Need I mention that our own Presbies do not ever exhibit such spiritual movements? I'm not saying that it's wrong or inappropriate in any way, but we just don't raise our hands. God's chosen frozen, you know!
Well, the two ushers on duty interpreted the lady's hand-raising to be a request for assistance or an indication of an emergency. They swiftly trotted down the aisle to be of immediate service. Actually, it was a very humorous moment. Both the woman and the ushers had a hearty laugh together after the service was completed.
But genuflecting before an altar in a Presbyterian church? I think not!
Posts: 22 | From: Kansas, USA | Registered: Nov 2010
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
Originally posted by Cottontail:
quote:
In my experience of the Kirk, the entry (and sometimes exit) of the Bible tends to be found in 'formal low church' places.
We would be "formal low church" then, as the Beadle formally takes the Bible in and out at the start and finish of the service with the congregation standing both times. The minister and choir just pootle in and out, no formality, no congregational standing and absolutely no genuflecting whatsoever.
Also, why a "crucifix" on the Communion table? Shouldn't that simply be a "cross" on the Communion table?
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
I am late to this party, having just stumbled cross this thread, but I thought I'd add my $0.02.
quote:
Originally posted by PRESBY DUDE:
I agree with the other posters. I'm a very active Presbyterian (in fact, I am the illustrious Presby Dude), and I almost fell off my computer chair when I read the worship review for First Presbyterian in Royal Oak, Michigan.
Genuflecting before an altar? In a Presby church, such action would be so rare as to be almost unthinkable. Do you suppose that the reviewer misinterpreted a slight bow (which I have seen on occasion) and called it a genuflection in error?
I had the same thought. And the fact that the MWer referred to it as an altar indicated at least some unfamiliarity with how Presbyterians do things.
There were a few other things in the report that gave me a little pause and made me wonder about the report. For example, the MWer said that one of the books used (or available for use) was the Presbyterian Hymnal (1955 edition). But there is no Presbyterian Hymnal (1955 edition). There is the 1991 Presbyterian Hymnal and the 1955 Hymnbook. The MWer, also says they used a hymnal called Sing and Rejoice, but looking at a bulletin or two from the church in question online, it looks to me like they actually were using Worship and Rejoice from Hope Publishing.
Also, the MWer reported that there was a "crucifix" on the "altar." I seriously doubt that. And indeed a picture on the church's website -- from Palm Sunday, the day of the MWer's visit, no less -- shows a cross, not a crucifix, on the table (not altar).
All very odd.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
As a child I remember an elder making a profound bow at the Little Hallel, or possibly the Great Hallel - can't quite recall which issued the arrival of the Bible that was laid open on the 'board'
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
You've sent Miss Amanda back to the original draft on this one.
The reporter did use the word "cross", which was erroneously changed to "crucifix" by the editor. This has been corrected.
However, the reporter clearly referred to the table as an altar, even using the phrase "high altar". Indeed, the reporter went on at length about how some Protestants appear to regard the table as an altar, but those remarks were edited out due to length. For the sake of clarity, the report has been revised to enclose the word "altar" in quotation marks.
There can be no doubt, however, that the clergy knelt before the "altar". The original draft includes the sentence: "The Presbyterian minister genuflected (yes, kneeled and reverenced) the 'high altar' (uh, table) upon his entrance to the sanctuary!" Again, this language was edited.
Other remarks in the original draft seem to indicate that the reporter is thoroughly familiar with Presbyterian traditions.
Finally, the names of the hymnbooks used have been corrected as per Nick Tamen's suggestions.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
^^^ All very interesting. Thanks, Miss Amanda.
One thought does occur to me about the "genuflecting." In many United Methodist churches in these parts, I have seen ministers, upon coming into the chancel at the start of the service, kneel briefly in front of the altar as if to say a short, silent prayer. This kneeling is on both knees and takes longer than a genuflection, but only as long was would be necessary for a sentence or two.
I have never seen this done in a Presbyterian church, but perhaps something of this nature was going on rather than a true genuflection. (Maybe the minister has Methodist roots?)
I don't know . . . just a guess.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
I have never seen this done in a Presbyterian church, but perhaps something of this nature was going on rather than a true genuflection. (Maybe the minister has Methodist roots?)
I might rephrase "perhaps something of this nature... rather than a standard (small-c) catholic genuflection." That seems a way of bending the knee (flecting the genu) in reverence which is very much in-keeping with their theology and appropriately labeled a true genuflection.
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
Posts: 8164 | From: Notre Dame, IN | Registered: Sep 2003
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hart:
I might rephrase "perhaps something of this nature... rather than a standard (small-c) catholic genuflection." That seems a way of bending the knee (flecting the genu) in reverence which is very much in-keeping with their theology and appropriately labeled a true genuflection.
Fair enough.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
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