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Thread: MW/2364: Brecon Cathedral, Brecon, Powys, Wales
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
[If there's one thing I hate ...**]
....then everything is soured.
Really?
A score of 'one', just because said mystery worshipper hates incense? Does someone actually read these reviews before they are put up? I know that there is an element of tongue and cheek with mystery worshipper and I have at times enjoyed its loaded, spicy invective with a side order of laugh, but should mystery worshipper reports really be allowed to be presented by folk that have an apparent chip on their shoulder? As a public forum this ship isn't doing itself any favour by allowing that kind of petty nastiness.....and before anybody asks - no, this isn't the first time I've noticed questionable mystery worshipper reports and contents.
*sorry if this has been dealt with already
**[Title edited to match MW review format. Original title relocated to beginning of Opening Post.]
[ 25. April 2012, 02:46: Message edited by: Mamacita ]
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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Nunc Dimittis
Seamstress of Sound
# 848
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Posted
I agree with you Fletcher. That seems an incredibly negative report - and not even well substantiated.
I wonder whether the MWer didn't understand what the "Easter Garden" was all about, and I was also wondering why they bothered going to a service which clearly wasn't going to cut the mustard with their need to rejoice... I mean, Cathedral, Festal Evensong... That suggests something about how the worship would be.
Perhaps the MWer would have been better off looking for the local pentecostal joint. Or anything really that wasn't a cathedral.
Posts: 9515 | From: Delta Quadrant | Registered: Jul 2001
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
There is a question of ethics involved in being a mystery worshipper which is probably why I have stayed away from it - having questionable ethics myself. But I'd like to think that if I ever did decide to be a mystery worshipper that I wouldn't go to something I know I would hate just so that I could be publicly nasty about it. To do so strikes me as incredibly immature, and frankly, pathetic, with the only person it does damage to being the community in question. Thats a heavy thing I wouldn't want resting on my conscience when trying to sleep at night.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
To be fair to the mystery worshipper, if s/he is asthmatic or has other problems with breathing in smoky atmospheres the use of incense might well ruin the entire experience. A friend of mine who suffers from asthma has strong views on the subject of incense - I could imagine her giving a service 1/10 for that reason alone. If you are struggling to breathe you won't be in the mood for appreciating other aspects of the worship.
Now you might say that someone who goes to a cathedral for a service should expect incense and anyone who's from the High Church tradition and/or goes to a cathedral regularly obviously would. But most other people wouldn't.
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
Thats fair enough Jane, but wouldn't it be better to realise that and leave quietly and decide to do your mystery worshipper elsewhere?
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
The score of 1 just because of the incense does seem a bit mean. But the MW did say that it caused him/her throat problems. Otherwise I thought the report was very fair. I would have been a bit miffed if a 'procession to the Easter Garden' was billed, and then to be excluded because I was in the congregation and not the choir. If there were only 40 or so punters surely it would have been possible for them to join in.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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marzipan
Shipmate
# 9442
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Posted
Evensong can be difficult to enjoy, though, if you're not used to it. Sometimes it seems like it's more about the choir than anyone/anything else, especially if the congregation's not very big or unfamiliar with the service.
Don't get me wrong - I love evensong. But the first few times I went I spent most of my time getting lost in the book of common prayer, and only managed to stand up/sit down in the right places because the pews were creaky so I heard the other people moving!
Evensong can be quite a reflective service, so if you're looking for a rejoicing uplifting service (as the MW said somewhere), it might be a disappointment.
The report doesn't seem too biased apart from the score out of ten, it describes the service quite well so if people like that kind of evensong then they can know to attend, and if they don't then they can find somewhere else to go.
There's nothing wrong with honesty.
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formerly cheesymarzipan.
Now containing 50% less cheese
Posts: 917 | From: nowhere in particular | Registered: May 2005
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
Maybe it's a question of perception then. Grade one in a grade of one to ten would signify to me the following (make-believe) situation, or something similar:
On entering said church I had a hymnal literally thrown at me and was asked to pay to see the building.
On sitting down I noticed the chair was wet and the water from the roof dripped on me all the way through the service.
Every hymn was sung at such a slow pace that it took ten minutes to get to the end of the first verse.
The choir sounded like a turkey farm
The building was freezing and the Vicar read cricket scores where the sermon should be.
Nobody shook my hand or said hello or even smiled at me.
The coffee afterwards was served cold with soft biscuits.
That would be deserving of a score of 'one'. Now the mystery worshipper - as you noted - didn't seem that unreasonable about the rest of the service (with the possible exception of a moan about wanting to go to an easter garden), so why then give it all a score of 'one'...of yeah, cos of incense. I have hay fever and if I go to church on Easter morning, inevitably there are bloody great big bunches of lilies everywhere - the little flowers of satan make the experience slightly unbearable and pollen makes my steroid dependent asthma go epileptic; but it's nothing a tissue and a handy reliever won't mend to get me through the service. But ultimately, I have enough self awareness to know that this is my personal issue and a reaction of MY body, so I'm not going to label a community as being totally shit (which is generally how most of us would understand a score of one) just cos I got sniffles.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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Swick
Shipmate
# 8773
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Posted
I read the review, which for the most part was positive, the notable exception being the negative reaction to incense. It did lead me to wonder if the mystery reviewers are of the same denomination of the church they review. Being Episcopalian, if I was going to a festive Evensong at a cathedral, I would expect it to be stiff upper lip, sung by a choir, probably in traditional language,with incense, copes, and processions. I think it's unfair to fault a service because it contains the very things one should reasonably expect.
Posts: 197 | From: Massachusetts, USA | Registered: Nov 2004
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
quote:
...wouldn't it be better to realise that and leave quietly and decide to do your mystery worshipper elsewhere?
Surely that depends on whether you think the MW project is meant to be an ego trip for the congregations surveyed or an honest account of how their services look to an outsider. Presumably the editors of the MW reports think the latter, or they wouldn't have published the report at all.
Obviously there's a subjective element to it. One person's favourite aid to worship may be another person's poison (perhaps literally, in the case of incense). I must admit I was surprised to see the rating of 1/10, but on rereading the report it wasn't just choking on the incense that this person found offputting; it was a number of things, including not being welcomed properly at the beginning; not being allowed to join in the procession to the Easter Garden; feeling like a spare part during much of the service while the choir did their thing.
For congregations on the receiving end, getting a less than positive report is bound to be painful. But it's usually more helpful if people tell you what's bothering them instead of storming off in a huff or keeping quiet.
Just for the record, I don't like Evensong either unless I'm singing in the choir.
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
My problem is that I'm such an incense junkie that I can barely smell the stuff now in a big church.
I'm sure I would have appreciated the service more than the MW, but s/he was not snide and gave a fair description of what happened and what they felt.
And the score is not a recommendation to others: it is how the MW felt about making it their regular church.
And we were told enough to judge for ourselves.
BTW When I visited Brecon Cathedral (which is a grander building than most Welsh cathedrals even though only a cathedral since the 1920s) I could barely move for didactic little bilingual notices saying "This is a font" or whatever and describing its use.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
When I visited Brecon Cathedral I thought they did very well to produce the closest thing to cathedral-type worship with mostly the resources of not much more than a small-town parish church. I certainly would have given it 7/10.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
Does someone actually read these reviews before they are put up? <<snip>> This isn't the first time I've noticed questionable mystery worshipper reports and contents.
Fletcher Christian, if you'd like to join the MW editing team, I'll be happy to send you the house style sheet, editing guidelines, and sample report for editing just to see how much "questionable mystery worshipper contents" you are able to identify.
The question asks, "How would you feel about making this church your regular?" The reporter gave an honest answer. The question does not ask, "How likely do you think others would be to make this church their regular?"
As others have pointed out, the report is positive on balance. Neither the editor who took this report, nor I as lead editor, saw anything that would preclude its being published. We are not clairvoyant, and we are usually not present ourselves at the services being reported on. We do look out for obvious bias, chips on shoulders, or hidden agenda, but these do not always present themselves with clear labels attached.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
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Posted
I think it would be very difficult to write a MW report, from an ethical as well as an objective, perspective, which is why I've not done it.
When we were in Florida with family I briefly considered doing a MW report on the ELCA church we attended there -- it's in a bedroom community in the popular Orlando area, it's something of a fish out of water in megachurch/Southern Baptist Land, it might be interesting to others -- but by the end of our visit I knew it was going to be our spiritual home base, and I didn't want to betray its trust by writing about it, even in a largely positive way. Maybe I should have gone to the city-block-sized non-denom megachurch with the rock-climbing wall instead.;-)
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Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
I have twice not submitted unfavourable MW reports as my displeasure with the style of service was too strong for my comfort level. One of them, at Holy Trinity in Toronto, was very well-written and IMHO funny, but I had so little sympathy for the event that I felt an honest mark would have been too low to have been a fair rating. On other MW reports, I have given two sets of scores for different indicators.
In this case, the reporter was open about their motives and reasons. I would suggest to them that, the next time, they sit themselves closer to the thurible to get full benefit. And, on a mean day, I would send them to the cathedral in Santiago to get a full whiff.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
Posted by Jane R:
quote:
Obviously there's a subjective element to it. One person's favourite aid to worship may be another person's poison (perhaps literally, in the case of incense). I must admit I was surprised to see the rating of 1/10, but on rereading the report it wasn't just choking on the incense that this person found offputting; it was a number of things, including not being welcomed properly at the beginning; not being allowed to join in the procession to the Easter Garden; feeling like a spare part during much of the service while the choir did their thing.
You are missing the point I am making; it's not about whether or not someone likes or dislikes incense; it's that in an otherwise average MW report where you might imagine the place would get maybe 5 or 6, gets 1! This has nothing at all to do with a congregations ego trip or about saying nice things even when there is little nice to be said, and just for the record I have no connection with this place whatsoever - not even a spurious one. It could be the greatest hell hole on earth for all I know. My qualm is with the report.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
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Posted
FC: You just never know how other people are going to react to a church service.
In college I once invited a con-Evo dormmate, a zealous member of the Navigators, to a service at my Lutheran campus ministry. It was, at least to my mind, a wonderful service to take a visitor to; the sermon was relevant and meaningful and thoroughly/solidly based upon the Scripture lessons; the music was well done and singing enthusiastic; there was lots of lay leadership of the service; the church was packed; the people represented the racial/age/socioeconomic diversity of the surrounding town remarkably well for a traditionally "ethnic" denomination and a student chapel. After the service, people were friendly and welcoming. It made me glad to be a part of it all and proud to have been able to show it off a little to this Methodist-turned-fundamentalist individual.
Her comment en route home: "I really think you should join my [fundamentalist non-denominational 'fellowship' at the other end of town]."
"Why?"
"Why do you want to practice a living faith in a dead church?"
"Huh?"
Bottom line: She didn't "get" liturgical worship. And that was that; we were a "dead" church that was obviously not Really Christian [tm] That was the lens through which she examined her entire experience at my church.
As my partner likes to say, "Some people take one thing and just gnaw on it the way a dog gnaws on a bone."
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Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
Lutheranchik, thats still - with respect - missing the point I am making. It's not about taste and personal preference. It's about a report that is overall fairly balanced, but when it comes to the scoring of the event is anything but, and then it gives a very odd reason why the scoring is so fatally skewed. Normally, I would imagine, if someone reads these things beforehand they might have though, "Hmmm, I wonder why after such a reasonable review this person went on to give such a grim view of the place in terms of scoring? And I wonder why they had to make the point that the low score was due to one particular thing?". These are communities we sit on judgement over. MW reports can indeed be very subjective, but they can also be used as a vicious bullying tool and as a way of inflicting pain on an entire community in a very public, yet anonymous way. I'm not suggesting that this is taking place here, but when something really doesn't add up, somebody should be brave enough to ask the questions.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
It's not about whether or not someone likes or dislikes incense; it's that in an otherwise average MW report where you might imagine the place would get maybe 5 or 6, gets 1!
Herein lies the misunderstanding, I think. The question does not suppose that "the place would get" anything. The reporter is not being asked to rate or grade the service. This is not a final exam at seminary. The question is merely asking if the reporter is likely to make the church his or her regular. Nothing more. Nothing less.
Perhaps we should consider revising this question to ask the reporter to grade the service: "On a scale of 1 to 10, how did this service rate?" The MW report form is not, after all, divinely inspired scripture, the unalterable word of God.
quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
I would imagine, if someone reads these things beforehand . . . somebody should be brave enough to ask the questions.
Again you are implying that the reports are published verbatim without editing or critical examination. I repeat my invitation to have you join the editing team if you are dissatisfied wtih the results of the process as it is currently conducted.
[ 24. April 2012, 17:54: Message edited by: Amanda B. Reckondwythe ]
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
Fair point Amanda. I would certainly be in favour of a revised way of scoring as you state it. It just seems to me that to be that church community and to get 'one' would be a tiny bit gutting - especially when they didn't appear to do anything particularly 'wrong'.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
I happily inform Fletcher Christian that the editing team has been challenging and vigorous with some of my reports. Some of their challenges have resulted in improvements and clarifications, but others just annoyed me (mind you, my writer friends have similar responses to being edited-- like them, I do not take it personally, as it is part of the process in producing something useful for readers). Amanda is witness and participant in some of the back-and-forth.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
It just seems to me that to be that church community and to get 'one' would be a tiny bit gutting - especially when they didn't appear to do anything particularly 'wrong'.
You are still missing the point. The Mystery Worshipper is asked,
quote:
How would you feel about making this church your regular (where 10 = ecstatic, 0 = terminal)?
It's not an overall rating. There are any number of churches that aren't doing anything "wrong" that I would never make my regular church and so would give a 0 or 1 on this scale. My parents' church, for instance -- no way. Ever. 0. I'd almost rather switch religions. For an overall rating of their service, though, given the overall quality of what they do, I'd give them at least a 7.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
Yes, I am pretty much in the same boat, Ruth. There are churches which are a 1 for me personally, but that for someone without my particular kinks might be a 7. There is a pretty large element of YMMV in all this.
Personally I loathe the grabby-gabby peace that seems to be the real focus of the Eucharist in a lot of places, and I could go a very long time without ever hearing another praise song or chorus. Incense, if they don't over do it, is nice, but when it interfers with singing I get a bit grumpy.
PD
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Roadkill on the Information Super Highway!
My Assorted Rantings - http://www.theoldhighchurchman.blogspot.com
Posts: 4431 | From: Between a Rock and a Hard Place | Registered: Mar 2007
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
Fletcher Christian: quote:
You are missing the point I am making; it's not about whether or not someone likes or dislikes incense; it's that in an otherwise average MW report where you might imagine the place would get maybe 5 or 6, gets 1!
But you are missing the point as well, as several other people have pointed out. To take another example - not that I'm a mystery worshipper myself, just someone who occasionally visits a different church - I have been to a Quaker meeting once or twice, but on a scale of 1 to 10 the chances of my becoming a regular member is also pretty close to 1. Not because I didn't like their worship, or because they weren't welcoming (they are Friends, after all) but because I am addicted to church music and couldn't do without it permanently.
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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Mockingbird
Mimus polyglottos navis
# 5818
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Posted
I interpret the MW report as mostly positive, except for the gripe about the incense and the low grade. Maybe i'm reading between the lines.
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Forþon we sealon efestan þas Easterlican þing to asmeagenne and to gehealdanne, þaet we magon cuman to þam Easterlican daege, þe aa byð, mid fullum glaedscipe and wynsumnysse and ecere blisse.
Posts: 1443 | From: Between Broken Bow and Black Mesa | Registered: Apr 2004
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Mockingbird
Mimus polyglottos navis
# 5818
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PD:
Personally I loathe the grabby-gabby peace that seems to be the real focus of the Eucharist in a lot of places,
I call that "hug-and-hump mass" ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
There must be a thread about peace-etiquette somewhere.
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Forþon we sealon efestan þas Easterlican þing to asmeagenne and to gehealdanne, þaet we magon cuman to þam Easterlican daege, þe aa byð, mid fullum glaedscipe and wynsumnysse and ecere blisse.
Posts: 1443 | From: Between Broken Bow and Black Mesa | Registered: Apr 2004
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
I would certainly be in favour of a revised way of scoring as you state it.
I can raise the question with Simon. Perhaps a separate question asking for an overall rating of the worship experience, in addition to the question asking how likely the reporter is to make the church his or her regular.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
I happily inform Fletcher Christian that the editing team has been challenging and vigorous with some of my reports. Some of their challenges have resulted in improvements and clarifications, but others just annoyed me (mind you, my writer friends have similar responses to being edited. . . .)
You've got to admit, though, the editing has gotten better of late. Personally I hate being edited too.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
When I visited Brecon Cathedral I thought they did very well to produce the closest thing to cathedral-type worship with mostly the resources of not much more than a small-town parish church. I certainly would have given it 7/10.
I felt the same a few years ago when I visited St David's, a town that is not much bigger than a large village, which even managed to produce Evensong on weekdays, with quite demanding settings. There were tenors and basses who visibly had come in on their way home from school.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
St David's IS a village in reality (although technically a city because of the cathedral). I was there in the autumn and attended evensong twice. It was lovely and a bit surreal.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
What would anywhere else be called the 'Memorial Hall' or 'Village Hall', place where noisy meetings and jumble sales are held, proudly proclaims itself, carved in the stonework, as 'City Hall'.
Beat that New York.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Dunno about Brecon, but our Cathedral here takes care to put a prominent note on the service sheet/booklet if incense is to be offered on a particular occasion.
Some people do indeed find incense difficult to cope with, and such notes can at least forewarn them. Other churches/cathedrals where use of incense is not the norm, please copy!
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
But why stop at incense? I'm terribly allergic to Easter lilies, as I know many people are. Some people are allergic to Christmas trees.
And then there are the people (male and female) who splash on the smelly perfume.
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
I suppose Easter lilies and Christmas trees are less likely to get up and wander around the church ![[Biased]](wink.gif) It's harder to avoid the thurifer.
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
I think the crucial point, as others have alluded to, is that MW reports don't really have to be fair - they are about subjective opinions. Making the bridge from how we think we are perceived to how we actually are. Perhaps the MW-er wasn't entirely fair. But then if everybody approached Christian worship with an open-minded and fair attitude, Mission would be a darn sight easier...
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Flinging wide the gates...
Posts: 10335 | From: Hanging in the balance of the reality of man | Registered: Jun 2003
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Stephen
Shipmate
# 40
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Posted
Brecon Cathedral is in fact my 'local' cathedral, if some 40 miles distant 'over the hills and far away'
I was really surprised they used incense - at one time that would definitely have been a 'no-no' - however I believe that the Bishop who was the previous Dean is pretty High - I'm not sure about the present Dean so it's obviously gone up the candle somewhat
I don't like the idea of not involving the congregation in the procession to the Easter Garden. I think the last time I attended such a service was in Hereford Cathedral - must have been on holiday - and we all took part in the procession. More than 40 of us too, I think
The number at Evensong is in fact quite good - I've attended Choral Evensong there in the past and it seems quite sparcely attended
I've had a look at the website and I see they only have Mattins once a month instead of twice a month
The cathedral itself is quite austere and feels very monastic (!) It wouldn't be my favourite cathedral by a long way one of the reasons being it's so flipping cold! I mean that literally - not a reference to the atmosphere. I have been there on occasion eg an Ordination service when we've quite warm temperatures outside and inside it's freezing. It gives me the shivers to write about it to be honest! I've never been in such a cold cathedral
As to the Master's Mate ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) point - I've always regarded the scoring as something very personal and not a sort of Which? type scoring, so I'm not too bothered about it.I love Choral Evensong actually but even there I think I would have given the score a 4 or 5 - no higher. Or to put it another way - going right outside my comfort zone - say I did an MW on the City Temple. I might have quite a few nice things to say about the preacher, the singing, being a welcoming place, the readings that were chosen etc, etc, but as I say when it comes to the question then yes I probably would feel pretty terminal Sunday after Sunday ![[Two face]](graemlins/scot_twoface.gif)
I've never wanted to do an MW as I like others have ethical problems - when you go to a strange church I feel like I'm a guest. It doesn't seem right to be honest to me to be writing a formal report in those circumstances although I suppose I may be somewhat hypocritical here as I've on occasion posted the odd review now and again!
You could make a case for altering the format of the report I suppose but it depends really what you're trying to do. If you had an additional question perhaps it would tend to lean to a Which? type of report - but do we really want that?
If I read an MW report I will I hope take into account the MW's preconceptions and make allowances - a score of 1 wouldn't in itself put me off for instance, and I've read about churches that have had a low score in the past that I suspect I would probably like
Posts: 3954 | From: Alto C Clef Country | Registered: May 2001
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birdie
fowl
# 2173
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Royal Spaniel:
I was really surprised they used incense - at one time that would definitely have been a 'no-no' - however I believe that the Bishop who was the previous Dean is pretty High - I'm not sure about the present Dean so it's obviously gone up the candle somewhat
I don't know the current Dean either, but the previous Dean would certainly be very happy with clouds of incense billowing about.
You're right about the temperature though - I'd be sitting as near as possible to the thurifer in the vain hope a bit of warmth might waft out with the incense.
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"Gentlemen, I wash my hands of this weirdness."
Captain Jack Sparrow
Posts: 1290 | From: the edge | Registered: Jan 2002
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Panda
Shipmate
# 2951
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Posted
I'm not quite sure if the score is actually necessary in the report. Are they search-able according to score, or something like that? When I read a report I am far more interested in the answers to the questions; the more detailed the better. Perhaps reports could end with asking 'How would you feel about making this your home church?' without the point scale; you'd get the same idea.
Re the Easter Garden - it might be fair to point out that in Brecon, it's in the back corner of the cathedral, down an aisle. There wouldn't really be room for over 60 people (I am counting congo + choir & clergy) to all get up close. This is a cathedral that doesn't actually have any west doors; there isn't really any other open space to put it in.
Posts: 1637 | From: North Wales | Registered: Jun 2002
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Autenrieth Road
Shipmate
# 10509
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Posted
I think a general numerical score of the service in addition to or even worse in place of the "how likely would you be to make this your regular?" question, would be a bad thing.
A question about how likely you would be to worship there regularly, is clearly a personal question, and a personal answer is just that, and not a statement about the service as a whole, but rather a statement about the service as compared to the reporter's personal proclivities.
A general rating on the other hand takes all the reporter's personal proclivities, and wraps them up in a supposedly (but not really) objective number. No thanks.
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Truth
Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
I agree entirely, AR. When I taught English there were always students who fixated on the letter grades and never read the comments on their papers. They'd have all done better to ruminate upon the comments than to obsess about the grades.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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sonata3
Shipmate
# 13653
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Posted
To confirm that MW reports are indeed carefully edited, and to share an anecdote:
I MW'd a collegiate chapel in the US, and felt that it was an almost perfect expression of Christian liturgy. When I got to the question about making this my regular place of worship, I rated it a "1", simply because it was not a parish church.
MW editors changed my "1" to a "10", and when I thought about it after seeing it published, I thought, "Well.....OK" Given the positive remarks I had made in my report, the editor felt a "10" was more appropriate than a "1"; even though there was no chance of my becoming a member of this chapel.
:-)
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"I prefer neurotic people; I like to hear rumblings beneath the surface." Stephen Sondheim
Posts: 386 | From: Between two big lakes | Registered: Apr 2008
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Sir Pellinore
Quester Emeritus
# 12163
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Posted
OK. The numerical score might suck. The actual commentary did give, I consider, a pretty reasonable response.
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Well...
Posts: 5108 | From: The Deep North, Oz | Registered: Dec 2006
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
posted by Ruth W:
quote:
I agree entirely, AR. When I taught English there were always students who fixated on the letter grades and never read the comments on their papers. They'd have all done better to ruminate upon the comments than to obsess about the grades.
So when you book a hotel, you pay more attention to the reviews than to the stars/score given?
When you want to see a film, are you suggesting that any score given for the film is something you will ignore and not factor in to your decision to see the movie?
Are you saying that after reading a mixed review about a restaurant that gets a score of one that you still might be tempted to go?
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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Morlader
Shipmate
# 16040
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
Are you saying that after reading a mixed review about a restaurant that gets a score of one that you still might be tempted to go?
A restaurant review doesn't seek to answer the question "how likely are you to make this your permanent eating place?" And I probably wouldn't go to the restaurant or stay at the hotel on the basis of the comments, not on the overall score.
Please don't allow an overall MW "score" - the present , OK personal, question is just right. An overall score would be meaningless - anyway, readers should weigh for themselves the importance of the various comments, which include the "How likely .." question (are MWs allowed to say why they would or wouldn't make .... their regular place of worship? Seems they are. Perhaps they should be asked to justify an answer out of kilter with rest of the report?).
[fixed code]
[ 26. April 2012, 10:56: Message edited by: seasick ]
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.. to utmost west.
Posts: 858 | From: Not England | Registered: Nov 2010
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Morlader
Shipmate
# 16040
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Posted
Sorry, mucked up the edit. ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif)
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.. to utmost west.
Posts: 858 | From: Not England | Registered: Nov 2010
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sonata3:
I MW'd a collegiate chapel in the US, and felt that it was an almost perfect expression of Christian liturgy. When I got to the question about making this my regular place of worship, I rated it a "1", simply because it was not a parish church. MW editors changed my "1" to a "10".
I'm checking with the editor to see if she recalls the circumstances surrounding this.
I seem vaguely to remember that we assumed that the "1" had to be a typo, that the report was so positive in all respects that the reporter couldn't have possibly meant to rate it so low. Surely he simply pressed ENTER too soon after typing 1, before he had a chance to add the 0.
My memory may be wrong. Let's see if the editor remembers differently. If that was the case, however, I admit that we should have checked with the reporter before arbitrarily changing his score.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
So when you book a hotel, you pay more attention to the reviews than to the stars/score given?
As a matter of fact, yes, I do. I have found through bitter experience that many hotels rated two or even three stars were in fact noisy, dirty, uncomfortable or inconvenient. On the other hand, I have never regretted having followed the advice given in the published reviews of others who have stayed there.
But we digress.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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crunt
Shipmate
# 1321
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
Are you saying that after reading a mixed review about a restaurant that gets a score of one that you still might be tempted to go?
To make this restaurant analogy fit the MW report in question - a vegetarian reviewing a steak house might give top marks for service, decor, ambience etc. but only 1 point out of 10 when asked how s/he would feel about making the steak house his / her regular dinner venue.
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QUIZ: Bible
QUIZ: world religions
LTL Discussion
languagespider.com
Posts: 269 | From: Up country in the middle of Malaysia | Registered: Sep 2001
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
Please don't change the rating to a general one, for the reasons given above.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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