Thread: You can't leave without shaking my hand Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.
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Posted by Panda (# 2951) on
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In most churches I have attended or visited, of a range of denominations on both sides of the Atlantic, there is a practice for the vicar/minister/celebrant to stand at the door at the end of the service, shaking hands and greeting people on their way out. I would expect most shipmates are familiar with it!
Sometimes this feels like a mini-liturgy all of its own, and I often find it a rather awkward and false set-up, from the point of view of being in the congregation, and also as a minister. The queueing up is weird, the 5-second conversation with each person is unnatural, the delaying of people's exit is impolite.
And most crucially, when you're the minister, the awareness (I find personally) that there are a number of people who would rather sidle past, or nip out a different door, or being new, feel embarrased at being made to shake your hand and come up with something to say.
In the churches where I am shortly to become curate (DV), all of them are in the country church style with one side door and a long porch. We stand at the door between church and porch, greeting each person, and I have to admit it makes me uncomfortable each time.
I know one cleric who just stands a bit further out in the churchyard so that those who want to greet him can, the escapers can escape, and the door is not blocked so no queue forms. But I don't know what he does when it rains.
Is there a better way?
Posted by Sacred London (# 15220) on
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Our priest stopped standing at the door because it caused a hold up and actually stopped people having 'a private word' because they felt pressured to keep moving.
He then hung around the back of the church, but then found people formed a little queue for their private words which took away any sense of confidentiality.
Now he takes a coffee and stands at the front for a while after the service. Most people seem to get the point and wait at a distance until he is free for their private word.
Those who want to slip out do so, but we find more people stay for coffee now, and the greeters make sure newcomers are invited.
Posted by Michael Astley (# 5638) on
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We don't do that. Most people stay around for the refreshments or meal (which we now do once a month) and chat. This is the time that people mingle, catch up with each other, make plans, and speak to the clergy if they need to.
Only a handful leave soon after the service on occasion and they tend to do so during the Thanksgiving Prayers after the liturgy, during which the priest is busy consuming the Gifts.
Posted by Amos (# 44) on
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Michael, you've now got me imagining a row of babushkas filing past the priest in the manner of CofE church ladies: 'Nice liturgy, Father.'
Posted by Chorister (# 473) on
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Because the vicar has to see to so many churches, most people hardly ever get the chance to talk to him. Several people have sussed that the only chance they get is to leave the service immediately it is over, because then they get to shake the vicar's hand on the way out and talk to him, even if for a little while. Those who stay for coffee miss their chance as he's gone by the time they finish.
In some ways this has a detrimental effect - the newer members of the church are not encouraged to integrate because they'd rather talk to the vicar than stay and have coffee with everyone else and get to know them. I don't think this outcome was ever intended - it's just the way it has happened.
Posted by Martin L (# 11804) on
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Slip out during the final hymn, before the ministers reach the exit door!
Really, I did this for years. My church used to dismiss people wedding/funeral-style, with the ushers dismissing the front rows first, and so on. Since Martin was a back-row kinda guy, he didn't like to wait, and felt no need to talk to the clergy. So he slipped out early. Then others did, and then more, and eventually the entire back section of the church. Thereafter, the wedding-style dismissal ended. ![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif)
Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on
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When I've led worship at our place, the only way I've managed to extend the right hand of fellowship with most of the congregation is to go back into the church and muscle into whatever conversations are going on.
Our practice is that after the benediction there's a period of silence after which the collection bags, bread and chalice are removed from the table and paraded out of the church. Most people will then sit back down during at least half the organ piece before starting to mill around. I've found that by the time I've gone into the vestry, put the bread and wine on a table to be cleared away later, removed the radio mike and thanked those who assisted in serving communion then made my way back to the vestibule that there's been more than enough time for anyone who wants to make a dash for it to have left. Then I shake hands (or more often hug) and briefly chat with whoever wants to leave reasonably promptly before returning to the church to assist with clearing away the chairs.
But, I'm not the minister so there isn't the pressure of people wanting a quiet word in private. Not that after church is a particularly good time to do more than arrange a time for the minister to visit (or to visit the minister, whatever is appropriate) to have a proper talk.
Posted by Michael Astley (# 5638) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin L:
My church used to dismiss people wedding/funeral-style, with the ushers dismissing the front rows first, and so on.
Is this a local custom or is it a US/Lutheran cultural thing? At all weddings and funerals I've been to, once the guest of honour and family have left, people just go. There's no hanging about waiting for ushers.
quote:
Originally posted by Amos:
Michael, you've now got me imagining a row of babushkas filing past the priest in the manner of CofE church ladies: 'Nice liturgy, Father.'
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Posted by HCH (# 14313) on
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I have enough arthritis that I do not normally shake anyone's hand.
Posted by Martin L (# 11804) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Michael Astley:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin L:
My church used to dismiss people wedding/funeral-style, with the ushers dismissing the front rows first, and so on.
Is this a local custom or is it a US/Lutheran cultural thing? At all weddings and funerals I've been to, once the guest of honour and family have left, people just go. There's no hanging about waiting for ushers.
It's definitely not limited to Lutherans, but it may well be a regional thing.
Posted by Panda (# 2951) on
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Waiting to be dismissed is freaky! Hopefully it won't catch on here...
Unfortunately, all the churches in our team are too small to offer coffee afterwards; there's no room for it, and in fact only one has running water, and that one's tap is up in the sacristy; none have toilets.
So there may be some conversations in clumps around the church, but you still get this queue. The vicar doesn't go back in until he's shaken hands with everyone in it, and I just find it awkward. Maybe it's me.
What about doing it at funerals at the crematorium? You always go out a different door than you came in, and everyone has to go out the same door. Odds are you're not going to know more than half a dozen people. So should you stand there, blocking the door, making a bunch of people who would already rather be somewhere else shake your hand and mumble something?
Posted by seasick (# 48) on
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At crem funerals I stand to one side at the door, usually with clasped hands. I shake hands of those who offer their hand, others I greet in words and those who want to walk straight on past I leave be.
Posted by Amos (# 44) on
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At funerals at the Crem you go straight out (either saying the Nunc Dimittis, or with 'My Way' resounding in your ears) to wherever the family flowers have been put. The funeral director will know if you don't. The mourners then join you. You can have a word with anyone you need to have a word with--the clergy generally at least know the chief mourners because they'll have met them at the funeral visit--and anyone who needs to can have a word with you.
Posted by Silver Faux (# 8783) on
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After reading many, many Mystery Worshipper reports where the priest/minister/pastor is called unfeeling and uncaring because he/she said nothing to the visitor, going in or out, I will shake hands with everyone who passes me, the way I have done at every service I have ever led.
Not that a Mystery Worshipper will ever find the church where I serve as halftime, retired stated supply, but not greeting people seems likely to send the message that the presiding clergy is cold, rude, and unfeeling.
Not a great message to send, IMO.
Posted by Panda (# 2951) on
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I agree, but if he/she shakes every single hand that is proffered, making people queue up and wait, and then only exchanges something banal about the weather, how is that better, or more friendly? I can see the awkwardness on people's faces sometimes, especially if they're not regulars.
There must be a way, in a church with one, narrow, door to do it more naturally. Sometimes it's easier to go back in and target the newcomers/whoever you need to talk to. But then of course, some people who may feel offended if you don't speak to them get away...
Posted by Chorister (# 473) on
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The choir are lucky, we have a separate exit. Not many of us use it; most of us are sociable. But there have been occasions when it has been awfully useful....
Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Panda:
I agree, but if he/she shakes every single hand that is proffered, making people queue up and wait, and then only exchanges something banal about the weather, how is that better, or more friendly? I can see the awkwardness on people's faces sometimes, especially if they're not regulars.
I usually find that people who don't want to shake hands - or aren't interested in hanging around in order to shake hands - manage to avoid this simply by slipping past. On occasions when - as an attender - I've been caught in a bottle-neck, I've never had any problem politely excusing myself around the vicar and the other person, even if they're standing in the doorway. But if I've bothered to go to church, I probably wouldn't feel as if I wanted to sprint away at the first hint of freedom, anyway!
I should be very sorry if someone who really doesn't want to be greeted after worship, felt they had to. Though I admit I try to make sure I've acknowledged and spoken to visitors. 'The minister didn't even speak to me or shake hands with me,' is obviously one of the things for which we are usually hung, drawn and quartered.
Generally, though it seems to be an expectation and is usually very pleasant. But then most of my parishioners would be happy to stop in the street for a good old chinwag with me, so standing very briefly in a queue to exchange pleasantries after worship would probably not be considered unusual or trying.
One aspect which I do value very much with this little friendly ritual is that it gives me an opportunity to actually check out how everyone's looking, and catch any brief hint about people's situations. It's amazing how many updates you get on people's tests, their hospital dates etc, in the time it takes to shake a hand, and then you can remember to call on those people during the week to follow up what they told you. After worship, I would be more inclined to know if someone were missing from the congo, if I don't remember shaking hands with them.
But it certainly shouldn't be imposed.
Posted by Beeswax Altar (# 11644) on
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I'm sorry but this is just silly.
Shaking hands and exchanging pleasantries isn't the least bit weird or unique to church. We do it nearly every single day. Crowds move slow. That's part of sharing both sacred and secular space with other people. Failure to accept this fact leads inevitably to a short and/or miserable life.
I get tired of every single thing the church does being questioned because some hypothetical person might be offended or upset by it. As far as I'm concerned, these legions of impatient misanthropes are more than welcome to attend the Lutheran church down the road. I can't promise the Lutheran pastor has time for bullshit like that either. She's just better at saying "fuck off" tactfully.
Posted by PeteC (# 10422) on
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I sometimes shake hands, sometimes not. But what Anselmina said...about how easy it is to glean crisis points from a few words.
One Sunday, just after I received my cancer diagnosis, I was in the queue. My pp asked after my health. I said "I've cancer" The queue was forgotten; he held my hand and prayed for me then and there, and followed up even when I went to the hospital some 400 km away. I hold him in greatest respect for that, and even now, when he has left the parish to move up to a much larger one, I still see him, and he always has a friendly word with me. I certainly don't think my case was unusual. So that is the value of a handshake.
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on
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Visiting a large and affluent Episcopal church many years ago, I was wowed by everything but couldn't imagine what exactly I would say to the rector as I departed. There was a long queue of people but he kept things moving. I attempted to end-run the whole thing, and he actually turned toward me as he listened to someone, reached out and shook my hand as I went by and he welcomed me. I was impressed, and it turned out that I needn't say anything but thanks!
Posted by CorgiGreta (# 443) on
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In my parish, the lineup at the door usually consists of the rector, the deacon, the subdeacon and the two or three assigned greeters.
Furthermore, one is likely to get more than a handshake. A hug and even a kiss of peace from the rector and deacon are quite common although they do seem to have an ability to sense when such greetings are not appreciated.
It's possible to avoid the above by departing through a transept door, but I have seen very few people do so.
While I am not a fan of touchie-feely gestures in almost all other settings, I find it inexplicably appropriate at the church door.
Posted by CorgiGreta (# 443) on
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Also, the line of congregants at the door often presents an opportunity for one to meet, greet, or start up a brief conversation with other worshippers. The few minutes of waiting time should not be viewed as an annoyance and a tax upon our patience.
Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on
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Can you not stand a few feet inside the door to allow would-be escape artists to make their way around you? Or do your pews go all the way to the back wall?
I'm not too fussed about the wait, to be honest. It's Sunday morning, and we've just had worship. It seems okay to linger a couple more minutes before returning to the time pressure of the work week. (Unless I have an unusual circ like working Sunday noon, in which case I'd be sitting in the last pew anyway to slip out the moment "Amen" is said)
Also, this is going to sound pitiful, but for some people this is the only physical touch they get all week. It was for me as a child, after my parents mistakenly decided my sensory issues meant they should never touch me. I lived for that half-second handshake on Sundays.
Posted by PD (# 12436) on
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I more often have to hang about waiting for the stragglers than worry about keeping the queue moving. I do pick up useful tidbits of information from 'door patrol.' If you are completely determined to allude me, you can cut down the side "aisle' and out the left side of the double doors. I like to prop myself on the rearmost pew to take the weight off my aching right knee thus generating the escape route.
PD
Posted by Trisagion (# 5235) on
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The PP and I have been getting more and more concerned about the lack of reverence and opportunity for people to make their thanksgiving. We decided that from Pentecost onwards we would go into the sacristy, unvest and then return to church each kneeling and making our thanksgiving there and then for about five minutes. Result: people get out quickly and quietly and those who want make their thanksgiving can. Those who need to catch us don't have too long to wait and seem happy so to do. We've agonised about whether it seems unfriendly or not and I suspect that what we'll eventually settle on is to alternate: one on the door, one in the pew.
[ 10. June 2012, 15:17: Message edited by: Trisagion ]
Posted by Martin L (# 11804) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
Visiting a large and affluent Episcopal church many years ago, I was wowed by everything but couldn't imagine what exactly I would say to the rector as I departed. There was a long queue of people but he kept things moving. I attempted to end-run the whole thing, and he actually turned toward me as he listened to someone, reached out and shook my hand as I went by and he welcomed me. I was impressed, and it turned out that I needn't say anything but thanks!
I must chuckle because those very words could have been said by me about a certain Anglo-Catholic church in the city. Even though I was one visitor at a festival liturgy with well over 100 in attendance, the rector engaged me in a brief conversation. I was pleasantly surprised by the attentiveness. Then I turned to walk away and [I believe] a warden did pretty much exactly the same thing. Only thereafter did it occur to me that I could have used a side exit!
Posted by leo (# 1458) on
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As introvert with little small talk, i find the hand-shaking nauseating if i am the minister at the back. But i make myself do it if i have been upfront.
However, as as Reader, I am in the congregation alternate Sundays. That is where i can have focussed, one-to-one, in depth conversations by simply staying in my pew and waiting for people to come and sit beside me - which they often do.
Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on
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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
As introvert with little small talk, i find the hand-shaking nauseating if i am the minister at the back. But i make myself do it if i have been upfront.
Gordon Bennett, leo. 'Nauseating'? You find it sick-making showing brief friendly interest in the people you've just ministered God's grace to? By all means dislike it, or find it boring, or not worth your while - but 'nauseating'? You don't, in fact, need any 'talk'; just smile, look them in the eyes and give them a handshake to prove that their presence in church that morning means something!
quote:
However, as as Reader, I am in the congregation alternate Sundays. That is where i can have focussed, one-to-one, in depth conversations by simply staying in my pew and waiting for people to come and sit beside me - which they often do.
But the queue at the door to get out is not about focussed, one-to-ones is it?
Posted by Basilica (# 16965) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
As introvert with little small talk, i find the hand-shaking nauseating if i am the minister at the back. But i make myself do it if i have been upfront.
Gordon Bennett, leo. 'Nauseating'? You find it sick-making showing brief friendly interest in the people you've just ministered God's grace to? By all means dislike it, or find it boring, or not worth your while - but 'nauseating'? You don't, in fact, need any 'talk'; just smile, look them in the eyes and give them a handshake to prove that their presence in church that morning means something!
As another introvert with little small talk, I can totally understand feeling a slight feeling of nausea -- a nervous nausea, not an about-to-throw-up nausea -- at the prospect of having to exchange a couple of sentences with a large number of people in a short amount of time.
Posted by churchgeek (# 5557) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Panda:
...I often find it a rather awkward and false set-up, from the point of view of being in the congregation, and also as a minister. The queueing up is weird, the 5-second conversation with each person is unnatural, the delaying of people's exit is impolite.
I couldn't agree more.
Luckily, as a member of a cathedral, I could always avoid that - with multiple ministers (usually one who presided and one who preached, plus a few other people who might stand there) forming a line just outside the cathedral in the parish hall, you could skirt around them or go directly to one of them, although a sort of a line did form.
Where I work, it's similar - the preacher and presider tend to stand at the back (while we vergers take their vestments, so they can go straight to coffee hour, but which has the unfortunate effect of a clerical strip-tease (just down to the cassock, thank God) at the rear of the nave) but anyone can get around them or exit through any of the other many doors. It's a blessing to have such spaciousness.
Perhaps a priest could go straight to the vestry/sacristy (and then to coffee hour) and let lay members of the congregation do the initial post-service greeting? Most parishioners will pass by them, but they could greet newcomers and invite them to coffee hour.
[ 10. June 2012, 21:08: Message edited by: churchgeek ]
Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Basilica:
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
As introvert with little small talk, i find the hand-shaking nauseating if i am the minister at the back. But i make myself do it if i have been upfront.
Gordon Bennett, leo. 'Nauseating'? You find it sick-making showing brief friendly interest in the people you've just ministered God's grace to? By all means dislike it, or find it boring, or not worth your while - but 'nauseating'? You don't, in fact, need any 'talk'; just smile, look them in the eyes and give them a handshake to prove that their presence in church that morning means something!
As another introvert with little small talk, I can totally understand feeling a slight feeling of nausea -- a nervous nausea, not an about-to-throw-up nausea -- at the prospect of having to exchange a couple of sentences with a large number of people in a short amount of time.
Well, I think I can understand that, all right. I guess I was thinking more of nauseating as 'disgusting', or being disgusted by.
Posted by Angloid (# 159) on
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I don't know whether leo was thinking of nauseating as 'disgusting' or in the sense that Basilica describes. I think as an introvert who has learnt over years to act the part of an extravert (common for many priests) I've got over the nausea, but I can sympathise. It's the artificiality of the queue at the door which I find difficult.
It's a bit similar to the sharing of the Peace. I'm glad that it has become a regular part of most eucharistic liturgies, but when I am in a strange church I always feel a sort of 'nausea' (though butterflies in the stomach would describe it better) before it and feel oddly relieved if it doesn't take place. That's my inner shy introvert and gut feeling; my head, and my heart, want to share.
Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on
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Huh.
It's funny but when a couple of cradle RC friends of mine (one Polish, 'tother Irish) joined me for worship at an Anglican cathedral, the thing that they found most unusual was the queue to shake hands. They wondered if it was a blessing of some kind - I had to explain that it was just a rather formal way of being friendly, and that one Always Does It.
Does anyone know how far back it goes? In costume dramas one always sees Mr. Collins greeting each worshipper outside the church porch, with levels of bowing and scraping appropriate to their respective stations, but I think we all know it is not always wise to trust television in this respect! Would it actually have been common in Britain in, say, the eighteenth century? Earlier?
Posted by Sacred London (# 15220) on
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quote:
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
Does anyone know how far back it goes?
Is it connected with another Anglican custom - the retiring collection?
One of the reasons I have doubts about the line-up is that it encourages worshippers to think they have just attended a performance by the clergy ("lovely service Vicar") rather than a shared liturgy.
[ 11. June 2012, 09:29: Message edited by: Sacred London ]
Posted by BroJames (# 9636) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
You don't, in fact, need any 'talk'; just smile, look them in the eyes and give them a handshake to prove that their presence in church that morning means something!
That's all it is for me: a moment of direct person to person contact between minister and members of the congregation at the end of the service. It's not a problem for people to slip past if they want to. No conversation is required, just a smile and a handshake. if there's not much of a queue then there can be a word or two, an enquiry about health or family, for example (or, for visitors, where they're from, how the holiday is going etc.)
Posted by Angloid (# 159) on
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Even when I have deliberately positioned myself at the church door in order to catch everyone, I've managed to miss a few key people. Normally I've settled for hovering somewhere around the back of church so that people can catch me if they want or I can catch them, allowing plenty of space for others to escape.
Posted by leo (# 1458) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
As introvert with little small talk, i find the hand-shaking nauseating if i am the minister at the back. But i make myself do it if i have been upfront.
Gordon Bennett, leo. 'Nauseating'? You find it sick-making showing brief friendly interest in the people you've just ministered God's grace to?
Wrong choice of word - i use 'nauseating' as a catch-all phrase for anything i don't like doing. I seriously forgot the literal meaning of the word. I am not so self-conscious(and hopefully secure enough) as to find anything sick-making.
Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on
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leo, fair enough. I think I understand what you mean a bit better, then.
Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on
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quote:
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
Does anyone know how far back it goes? In costume dramas one always sees Mr. Collins greeting each worshipper outside the church porch, with levels of bowing and scraping appropriate to their respective stations, but I think we all know it is not always wise to trust television in this respect! Would it actually have been common in Britain in, say, the eighteenth century? Earlier?
It would be interesting to know if Samuel Pepys had any remarks for the vicar as he left the church!
Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on
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I just now asked Google "why do we shake hands with clergy" and bumped into a web page from a Greek Orthodox church saying "We never shake hands with a clergy...[shaking his hand would] express that we do not recognize his power of forgiving sins and blessing...."
It talks about kissing the ring (but doesn't mention doing anything at the exit door).
Is shaking the clergyperson's hand a Reformation invention? If so, I wonder who started it, Luther? Calvin? Other?
Posted by Morlader (# 16040) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
The choir are lucky, we have a separate exit. Not many of us use it; most of us are sociable. But there have been occasions when it has been awfully useful....
In a church where the choir exit came out into the main exit, but after the 'handshake bottleneck', we were harangued sometimes over his shoulder by the vicar with "there goes the choir, being unsociable again'. We would have to have queued up to get back in to be 'sociable'. Anyway the coffee was down to the dregs by then and the biscuits were all gone. ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
Posted by Michael Astley (# 5638) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
I just now asked Google "why do we shake hands with clergy" and bumped into a web page from a Greek Orthodox church saying "We never shake hands with a clergy...[shaking his hand would] express that we do not recognize his power of forgiving sins and blessing...."
I think that the author overstates the case but now I come to think about it, I would almost certainly find it unusual to shake the hand of a priest. I'd never considered it before.
quote:
It talks about kissing the ring
What ring? ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on
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Some months after I arrived at my present church, a lady came to me and said that I was being unfriendly because I never shook her hand at the church door. I was puzzled by this.
A few weeks later, I realised that she always used our other door and so never passed me. However, as far as she was concerned, it was still my fault!
Posted by Michael Astley (# 5638) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Some months after I arrived at my present church, a lady came to me and said that I was being unfriendly because I never shook her hand at the church door. I was puzzled by this.
A few weeks later, I realised that she always used our other door and so never passed me. However, as far as she was concerned, it was still my fault!
There's nowt so queer as folk.
Posted by Angloid (# 159) on
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A neighbouring church to me is situated between a posh residential estate and less posh terrace housing. The posh people use one door and the unposh the other. I have it on good authority that within living memory the vicar always used to stand at the former door, and the curate at the latter. ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on
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And where would Jesus have stood?
Posted by Michael Astley (# 5638) on
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Perhaps the vicar felt that the apparently wealthier people were more in need of experienced spiritual guidance: eye of a needle and what not.
Posted by LutheranChik (# 9826) on
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My parents always told me that it was bad form to slip down the side aisle and skip the pastoral handshake. I think perhaps they were afraid of not being "counted" that way and winding up getting the dreaded Pastoral Visit.
Our church's dismissal is chaos -- after the "Thanks be to God" there's a stampede out the door, then a bottleneck as everyone tries to have a Deep and Meaningful conversation with the pastor -- DP and I tend to maneuver our way out the side door as quickly as possible.
Posted by Martin L (# 11804) on
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I have great sympathy for said vicar. More than likely he had no choice in the matter, or was making the best choice he could. (For instance, by not upsetting the established practice, the offerings coming in from the regulars might have funded charitable mission within the parish. If this were a known sticking point and he had messed with it, he might have known that the 'voting' would have occurred with a decline in revenue that would upset the church's mission work.)
ETA: Lutheranchik, I remember clearly the "dreaded Pastoral Visit." Coffee and refreshments were well-known to be expected, and all member households were visited at least once a year. ![[Help]](graemlins/help.gif)
[ 11. June 2012, 22:56: Message edited by: Martin L ]
Posted by Amazing Grace (# 95) on
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We have one of those extremely musical congregations where most people sit down and listen attentively to the postlude. The kids and other people who don't like standing around or want to get first crack at the goodies or the restroom usually leg it at that point. The clergy are handing their vestments to my altar guild compatriots so sometimes a fast and determined person makes it out the door before they get to their posts in the narthexes. The greeters are supposed to open up during the last hymn.
I am not always so successful at evading the line when I am a visitor and not interested in standing around (I have a slightly gimpy knee).
[ 12. June 2012, 04:39: Message edited by: Amazing Grace ]
Posted by venbede (# 16669) on
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Last time I went to a parish RC mass, the priest was by the door and shock my hands and we exchanged polite words.
At my previous church, I always went into the church hall for tea - which was off the main nave - so I was never part of any queue. I think the vicar just hang around at the back and chatted to anyone as appropriate. (He'd always introduced himself to any strangers in the congregation before the service.)
Posted by PD (# 12436) on
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quote:
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
Huh.
It's funny but when a couple of cradle RC friends of mine (one Polish, 'tother Irish) joined me for worship at an Anglican cathedral, the thing that they found most unusual was the queue to shake hands. They wondered if it was a blessing of some kind - I had to explain that it was just a rather formal way of being friendly, and that one Always Does It.
Does anyone know how far back it goes? In costume dramas one always sees Mr. Collins greeting each worshipper outside the church porch, with levels of bowing and scraping appropriate to their respective stations, but I think we all know it is not always wise to trust television in this respect! Would it actually have been common in Britain in, say, the eighteenth century? Earlier?
In the eighteenth century the congregation would have fecked off sharpish as they would have been frozen and hungry, and the priest would have headed home to thaw out and eat lunch. The "Sociables" would have been dealt with in the every day process living in a village. The formal line up at the back of the church is relatively modern (and tediously essential!)
PD
[ 12. June 2012, 07:21: Message edited by: PD ]
Posted by Zacchaeus (# 14454) on
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I know some churches, which are part of a larger group, where the vicar has to run away a soon as the service ends, so that they can reach one of the other churches in time for the Eucharistic prayer.
I came across one in the Lake District, where there was a designated driver for the clergy, who had the car ready and waiting, to drive the vicar the several miles to the next church. This priest had 4 Communion services on a Sunday and never got to shake a hand.
It may be a solution for those who do not like handshaking to find a church like this…
Posted by Bax (# 16572) on
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In my opinion, the clergy should be available to talk at the end of a service and make the effort to at least say "good morning" to a new face.
However, if people want to slip away without saying anything to you then this should be quite clearly acceptable and not "being rude".
Where the priest stands in relation to the door avoiding, "pouncing" on people etc. can make this half-way house possible...
Posted by Sacred London (# 15220) on
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The secret is to have two doors.
Posted by Panda (# 2951) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Bax:
In my opinion, the clergy should be available to talk at the end of a service and make the effort to at least say "good morning" to a new face.
However, if people want to slip away without saying anything to you then this should be quite clearly acceptable and not "being rude".
Where the priest stands in relation to the door avoiding, "pouncing" on people etc. can make this half-way house possible...
I think this is what I'm getting at - at the moment the clergy basically block the exit, and when there's more than one cleric, it immediately looks like a wedding line-up: even less natural.
I think it makes me uncomfortable because I feel we are making things awkward for those who would rather make a discreet exit. Those who want to talk to us will always find us, especially if we're near the door without actually intercepting everyone trying to use it. It's a challenge, though, in a small church that doesn't have a 'standing around' area except the central aisle - pews all the way to the back, door halfway down the side.
Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on
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Why not remove some pews by the door to provide space for the handshake, with space for others to get past.
The churches I have been members of have always had the minister* at the back shaking hands. At two of these churches that's been the door to leave the church building, with a door at the front of the church leading through to the halls and coffee, so only those who are not staying for coffee get the handshake on exit (the minister, if not going on elsewhere, then does the rounds over coffee). At the other churches there are either no alternate exits (except fire escapes) or they're basically not used and everyone passes the minister. Both have enough space in the church for people to mingle and chat before leaving so a queue rarely forms. There's enough room at the exit to get past, I frequently walked back and forth past the minister while he was shaking hands (if, for example, I was colleting communion glasses and taking them to the kitchen or simply chasing children). It doesn't actually require much room for that to happen - just the width of double doors is enough. Providing there's space for people to mingle so there isn't a mad rush for everyone to get to the tea and gossip time.
* or, whoever was leading worship (ie: preaching).
Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Sacred London:
The secret is to have two doors.
Well marked alternative exit, for fire safety. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Posted by Silver Faux (# 8783) on
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Some breeds of honeybees include 'fragrancy bees' whose task is to take a position at the entrance to the hive, beat their wings continuously, and emit a gentle fragrance. Bees seeking to find their way back to the hive are assisted in this way, both by fragrance and by some sort of sonar signal emitted by the beating wings.
Now, I am not certain that clergy are, or should be particularly redolent, but certainly, their action in shaking hands is somewhat similar to the action of a bee beating its wings.
So I, for one, always try to greet people on their way into the church, as well as on the way out, in the hopes that this action will help those seeking the church to find it through God's mysterious interaction, using me as a sort of bewildered sonar conduit.
For a more direct display, try serving seedless watermelon to the congregation, under a shade tree on the front lawn of the church on summer Sunday mornings. To passersby, you will, or should look something like a Norman Rockwell painting, and perhaps they will want to be part of that.
[added a little watermelon fragrance]
[ 13. June 2012, 18:31: Message edited by: Silver Faux ]
Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on
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I know that when I'm leading worship I'm not able to greet everyone as they come into church. For a start, with young children, I can't be there as early as some people (it would be unfair on the kids to have them hang around longer than necessary). And, probably similarly with most preachers, I want to spend a few minutes quiet before starting - and that's after checking with the church secretary that there's no member of the church I need to mention specifically in intercessions, that the person reading the Scriptures is there and going to read what I've prepared for, that I know who will be assisting with Communion (not that it really matters, but it's good to know there will be someone and I won't have to take the elements around the church myself!), and a range of other practical matters that mean I can't be there to welcome the last few people into church. That's before we come to the issue of the rare occasion of people arriving after I've got to the front and said "Good morning" to the whole congregation.
Of course, we have other people who give everyone a friendly "good morning" and hand shake, along with a hymn book, as they come in. I've not heard them buzzing, but maybe I should pay more attention on Sunday.
Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on
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quote:
Panda: And most crucially, when you're the minister, the awareness (I find personally) that there are a number of people who would rather sidle past, or nip out a different door, or being new, feel embarrased at being made to shake your hand and come up with something to say.
The church I visited as a child, had three doors. Most people would have 'fixed' places where they would sit every week, and consequently a fixed door where they would get out.
This lead to a kind of rotation scheme, where the preacher would shake hands at a different door every Sunday. It was actually part of the announcements, like: "Today the preacher will shake hands at the East door"!
I would always make sure I'd exit the church through a different door. If I'd want to talk to the preacher or shake his hand, I'd find other moments to do that.
Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on
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quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
I would always make sure I'd exit the church through a different door. If I'd want to talk to the preacher or shake his hand, I'd find other moments to do that.
[italics mine]
As in, 'Vicar, I'd like to shake your hand. You free about five o'clock next Wednesday?'
Posted by Angloid (# 159) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
That's before we come to the issue of the rare occasion of people arriving after I've got to the front and said "Good morning" to the whole congregation.
The rare occasion! Is that a denomination or Hadrian's Wall related difference? In my experience half or more of the congregation arrives after the start... especially those with children.
Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on
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It might be a "my choice of church" thing. For the last few years we've been the family with children, and very rarely not there with enough time to settle in before the service starts. Our last church had a 10am service, and was only a couple of minutes walk. Our current church has an 11.30 service (same pastorate as the last, so time for the minister, when we get one, to get from one church to the next) and so getting there on time is no difficulty at all - although it does tend towards a more rapid departure past the hand shake as people want lunch. We visited a CofS place the other weekend while away, and again for a 10am service if people did arrive late they were very discrete in coming in and sitting in the couple of pews behind us (the only people I was aware of moving around back there were the stewards who'd been on the door).
Before moving here I was in Methodist Churches in Liverpool and Watford. In both cases it was rare for people to arrive late (but common enough that door stewards didn't close the doors and enter the church until the first hymn just in case). Both those were larger congregations than any I've been part of here, so it may be a size thing.
Posted by PD (# 12436) on
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It is pretty common here for folks to drift in up to the Gospel. However, a slight discouragement to this practice is provided by the fact that the doors are closed during the first hymn, so it is difficult to sneak in after that.
Most churches I have ever been in have had one or two chronic stragglers. This rose to about a quarter of the congregation when the parish I then lived in changed to doing the notices at the beginning of the Parish Eucharist. The Vicar was one of those types that run off at the mouth. The notices would take 10-15 minutes, and as the main service was stupid early - 09.30 - the parishioners took the opportunity for another cup of tea, or an extra 10 minutes in bed before church.
PD
[ 15. June 2012, 18:35: Message edited by: PD ]
Posted by ken (# 2460) on
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We have people arriving up to an hour after the start. Most are in in the first ten minutes, but there have been Sundays with twice as many communicants as were present at the 10.30 kickoff.
Posted by Trisagion (# 5235) on
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We have one particular family, who for the sake of argument (and because that's what they're called) we'll call the Munros, who always arrive 25 minutes late for Mass, which - this being the Catholic Church in England - lasts just under the hour. When ai've been not on duty, I've been up the road for a paper after the 10:30am Mass has started, only to see them in Costa ordering a coffee before tootling down the hill just in time to miss the homily.
Posted by PeteC (# 10422) on
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I was always under the impression that you had to be present by the reading of the Gospel to fulfil Sunday obligation, and to be able to licitly receive the Eucharist?
Posted by sebby (# 15147) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
And where would Jesus have stood?
He would have been carried past in a sedia gestatoria
Posted by PataLeBon (# 5452) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
quote:
Originally posted by Sacred London:
The secret is to have two doors.
Well marked alternative exit, for fire safety.
Not helpful when you have two (or more) priests. Ours split up to cover all of the doors.
Posted by mettabhavana (# 16217) on
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quote:
"We never shake hands with a clergy...[shaking his hand would] express that we do not recognize his power of forgiving sins and blessing...."
[RANT]That's the most bizarre piece of twaddle I've read in many a long week (and my day job serves up plenty of twaddle!)[/RANT]
Posted by Japes (# 5358) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Bax:
However, if people want to slip away without saying anything to you then this should be quite clearly acceptable and not "being rude".
I think this is part of the problem, for me. There are differing standards of what constitutes rude.
I have been told at church today I am considered rude for not wanting to exchange the Peace with everyone, and am now seriously considering slipping out to the porch to wait until the Peace is over. I was so taken aback, I couldn't say "Well, I consider it rude to tap me on the arm, then when I've not moved, shove your hand under my face, when I'm sitting with my head down for the purposes of not having to shake hands with more than five people."
I did, for once, stop to exchange a few words with the vicar on my way out, and as I usually do go out the "Other Door" to avoid the long, tedious queue. it was a quick question, that required a Yes or No answer. Anything longer, I get in contact with the clergy on another day.
Sighs deeply...
[ 17. June 2012, 11:52: Message edited by: Japes ]
Posted by Sacred London (# 15220) on
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quote:
Originally posted by PataLeBon:
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
quote:
Originally posted by Sacred London:
The secret is to have two doors.
Well marked alternative exit, for fire safety.
Not helpful when you have two (or more) priests. Ours split up to cover all of the doors.
They really don't want you to get out except on their terms!
Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on
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Anybody gives you crap for not shaking hands, look them straight in the eye and say one word:
quote:
Arthritis
Idiots.
Posted by Chesterbelloc (# 3128) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Trisagion:
We have one particular family, who for the sake of argument (and because that's what they're called) we'll call the Munros, who always arrive 25 minutes late for Mass, which - this being the Catholic Church in England - lasts just under the hour. When ai've been not on duty, I've been up the road for a paper after the 10:30am Mass has started, only to see them in Costa ordering a coffee before tootling down the hill just in time to miss the homily.
Och, naughty Scots. And to think, I felt badly about arriving (despite my very best efforts) at last night's vigil Mass just as the homily began because I'd missed the Gospel. I'd been working, and I stayed to the end (well, the dismissal anyway - the post-diss "hymn" was ghastly) and communicated, but wondered if I'd really fulfilled my obligation. I was almost thinking of making an evening Mass today to make sure...
Posted by Zacchaeus (# 14454) on
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I'm CofE and I was tought that you had to be for the confession and absolution to take communion.
I know somebody who was refused communion (this was a few years back) because they arrived after the absolution.
Posted by Zacchaeus (# 14454) on
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I do know people both CofE and RC, who think that worship is purely about taking the sacrament and do not take any other part of the service seriously. Maybe the Munroes are of this persuasion?
Posted by Padre Joshua (# 13100) on
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I tend to set up shop at the door before church and then again after. You gotta talk to me going both ways. But then, there are several doors to the church, so if you want to avoid me it's pretty easy.
Posted by PD (# 12436) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Zacchaeus:
I'm CofE and I was tought that you had to be for the confession and absolution to take communion.
I know somebody who was refused communion (this was a few years back) because they arrived after the absolution.
I was taught that too, though my parish minister would have been just as happy to hear one's confession after Evening Prayer on Saturday. As a result I have tended to refrain from using a liturgy where the general confession and absolution are moved up front, thoug I personally think that that arrangement is structurally better.
PD
Posted by Martin L (# 11804) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Anybody gives you crap for not shaking hands, look them straight in the eye and say one word:
quote:
Arthritis
Idiots.
I do like to hold up a wadded/preferably snotty tissue in one hand, and wave apologetically with the other! (Of course, I only do this when I am sick.)
[ 18. June 2012, 22:11: Message edited by: Martin L ]
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