Ship of Fools: G.S.S. vs Company of Servers

Thread: G.S.S. vs Company of Servers Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Hairy Biker (# 12086) on :

I recently discovered that there is a second society for servers in the Anglican church. In addition to the Guild of Servants of the Sanctuary we now have the Company of Servers. Can anyone tell me why we have two, what their differences are and how I should decide which to join.
(Is the clue in the Wikipedia page where it says that GSS won't recognise the orders of ordained women, or is it more complex than that?)

Posted by Arch Anglo Catholic (# 15181) on :

In short, your assumption is correct.
The CoS is affiliated very directly to the Society of Catholic Priests, which body is inclusive though otherwise very Catholic (with a big C) in approach.

The GSS takes the opposite view and does not, as far as I am aware, support the ordination of women to the priesthood.

The CoS is relatively small and new but growing. The GSS is long established. Take your pick!

Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on :

Please note: if anyone has genuinely interesting information on the history of these or other 'Catholic Societies', and their roles in Anglican worship, then please contribute.

If however this thread descends into idle tittle-tattle, then it WILL be closed. Ditto for pursuing any tangent related to Dead Horses.

Many thanks for everyone's co-operation.

dj_ordinaire, Eccles host

Posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop (# 10745) on :

I am a member of GSS. There are those that have dual membership of both GSS and CoS, but that is considered to be a contradiction of conviction by the GSS, or there would not be a need for two separate organisations. The CoS on the other hand emphasise that they are an inclusive society.

The GSS was founded as long ago as 1898, in very different days when there was no such problem as the rightness or wrongness of women priests.

Posted by Ceremoniar (# 13596) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Hairy Biker:
I recently discovered that there is a second society for servers in the Anglican church. In addition to the Guild of Servants of the Sanctuary we now have the Company of Servers. Can anyone tell me why we have two, what their differences are and how I should decide which to join.
(Is the clue in the Wikipedia page where it says that GSS won't recognise the orders of ordained women, or is it more complex than that?)

In the Anglican Communion there is also the Order of St. Vincent, of which I was a member for ten years, during my youth. It dates from the late 1800s.

[ 13. June 2012, 18:44: Message edited by: Ceremoniar ]

Posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras (# 11274) on :

The Order of St Vincent is the only organization for servers I know of in the USA (at least for Anglicans). I think it may have lost ground over recent decades. Seems to historically be high church/Anglo-Catholic.

Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on :

Back in the day, the Societies did take slightly different theological lines which partly determined their membership. As it was told to me, the Confraternity of the Blessed Sacrament were considered quite extreme because of their insistence on Confession prior to each Communion.

The GSS were generally considered quite moderate and often had branches in parishes of very varied churchmanship. From what I can gather from the Ship, their attitudes to the OoWttPh have hardened considerably in some places, although much less so in others. The CofS I have to admit is a new one on me (although I see their first diocesan chapter was in Norwich so obviously I wish them well!)

Posted by Ceremoniar (# 13596) on :

quote:
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
As it was told to me, the Confraternity of the Blessed Sacrament were considered quite extreme because of their insistence on Confession prior to each Communion.

You were misinformed. Such a requirement was never part of the CBS' program. They certainly promoted use of the sacrament of penance, but not before every single reception of communion.

Posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop (# 10745) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
The Order of St Vincent is the only organization for servers I know of in the USA (at least for Anglicans). I think it may have lost ground over recent decades. Seems to historically be high church/Anglo-Catholic.

I know that the GSS if affiliated both to the Order of St. Vincent in the USA and to the Scottish Guild of Servers. GSS is confined to south of the border in mainland UK.

Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ceremoniar:

quote:
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
As it was told to me, the Confraternity of the Blessed Sacrament were considered quite extreme because of their insistence on Confession prior to each Communion.
You were misinformed. Such a requirement was never part of the CBS' program. They certainly promoted use of the sacrament of penance, but not before every single reception of communion.

I stand corrected!

Posted by Oferyas (# 14031) on :

I was a Chaplain to a GSS Chapter and, while we fully respected the official position of GSS on OOW, we had a full range of convictions on this issue represented among the Chapter membership, with members from parishes with woman incumbents as well as from 'Resolution' parishes.

I guess this would be true of many (most?) Chapters outside the LBSCR* area.

*(Ancient Anglo-Catholic joke for train enthusiasts: can stand for 'London, Brighton and South Coast Railway' or 'Religion' - both were historically found in the same areas.)

Posted by incensebomb (# 14167) on :

The official position of GSS, regarding the OOW is

quote:
The Guild has since its foundation supported the Catholic Order of male deacons and male priests.

It will continue to do so and will not recognise as valid the orders of women ordained to the priesthood.

This dates from 1993 following the General Synods decision to permit the ordination of women to the office of priest in 1992. GSS seems to go further than most of the Catholic Societies by including women deacons, which not even Forward in Faith go as far as.

The CoS takes the inclusive line and

quote:
supports the belief
that as a witness to the universal nature of the priesthood of Christ, the church
should ordain to serve as deacons, priests and bishops all discerned as being called by
God to such offices regardless of race, gender, disability or sexual orientation.

It goes further than this and says

quote:
Individual members may disagree personally with elements of [this]...but should be
respectful of the Company’s stated position.

I think hints at the old line that "being inclusive always excludes someone".

Posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop (# 10745) on :

The line referred to by Incensebomb regarding GSS policy is a reflection of the conservative views of the Warden Fr. David Moore as written in his statement regarding the Guild policy of women priests (and deacons).

As Fr. Moore has been in office as Warden continuously for 40 years, he has become in effect a law unto himself. In the fullness of time, when he stands down, things will not necessarily remain so conservative within GSS.

This is my own opinion and nothing I say is set in stone.

Posted by *Leon* (# 3377) on :

I can't help wondering why an organization of servers actually needs to have an official view on who can be a priest. They might need to have an official view on who can be a server, but I'd hope that's 'anyone'.

What does this mean in practice? Which organisation should you join if you grudgingly put up with your parish's position? The one that reflects your belief or the one that reflects your praxis? I suspect the answer is 'belief', but then you're joining the one that doesn't relate to the job you're doing.

Posted by Michael Astley (# 5638) on :

quote:
Originally posted by *Leon*:
I can't help wondering why an organization of servers actually needs to have an official view on who can be a priest. They might need to have an official view on who can be a server, but I'd hope that's 'anyone'.

It's because the GSS isn't primarily a social organisation but a devotional one, with the aim of providing fellowship and support to those who have a devotion to the altar expressed through their service.

Therefore, their meetings are not usually primarily social (such as going bowling together, or such like) but are liturgical. They get together for various services, including the mass. That's core to what they are. Naturally, if there is deep disagreement within the wider church to which they belong over who can preside over such things as a priest, then it doesn't seem unreasonable that a society of altar servers would take one position or the other.

Posted by Hairy Biker (# 12086) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Michael Astley:
Naturally, if there is deep disagreement within the wider church to which they belong over who can preside over such things as a priest, then it doesn't seem unreasonable that a society of altar servers would take one position or the other.

I don't see that. If you're serving, you should serve. That requires humility, which requires one to put ones own views to one side and get on with the business of serving.

Posted by Eirenist (# 13343) on :

Pardon my curiosity, but do these organisations allow women to be members?

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Hairy Biker:

quote:
Originally posted by Michael Astley:
Naturally, if there is deep disagreement within the wider church to which they belong over who can preside over such things as a priest, then it doesn't seem unreasonable that a society of altar servers would take one position or the other.
I don't see that. If you're serving, you should serve. That requires humility, which requires one to put ones own views to one side and get on with the business of serving.

Indeed. Of course, if you really think that what's inside the celebrant's underwear (or not) means that it's not a valid mass, you're not going to serve it, are you? Each server can decide. I can't see any reason why GSS needs a corporate position on the question, except in respect of who will officiate at its own corporate celebrations- in which case, given the division of opinions, a male celebrant has to be the more inclusive option. But GSS is a private organisation and it is entitled to take whatever position it pleases, whatever non-members like me may think .

[ 29. June 2012, 07:17: Message edited by: Albertus ]

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

Eirenist, the GSS certainly has women members (our own Dearly Beloved Sacristan is one!). I'm sure the CoS will also have women members.....

TBH, I can't really see the point of our local GSS Chapter. It is very small, and doesn't by any means include all the servers from our local churches (most of which are MOTR and not F-in-F). It meets once a month for the GSS Office (whatever that may be), with just two Masses per year - the Patronal Festival and a Solemn Requiem. There appear to be no social activities, nor training sessions, nor meetings for prayer and Bible study......

Ian J.

Posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop (# 10745) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Eirenist, the GSS certainly has women members (our own Dearly Beloved Sacristan is one!). I'm sure the CoS will also have women members.....

TBH, I can't really see the point of our local GSS Chapter. It is very small, and doesn't by any means include all the servers from our local churches (most of which are MOTR and not F-in-F). It meets once a month for the GSS Office (whatever that may be), with just two Masses per year - the Patronal Festival and a Solemn Requiem. There appear to be no social activities, nor training sessions, nor meetings for prayer and Bible study......

Ian J.

Membership is open to both men and women in both GSS and CoS.

CoS was purpose-formed to include both men and women.

GSS permitted women to join as a late development in its history 25 or 30 years ago and is now generally accepted. It was a change in its constitution made with a struggle at the time due to many die-hard conservative (male) members taking the narrow view.

About GSS local chapter meetings, the Guild Office is based on traditional Vespers, with three invariable psalms, invariable office hymn, (solemn) Magnificat and invariable (Guild) Collect. Chapters are required to sing/say the guild office four times a year, which in my opinion, is quite often enough. Other monthly meetings can consist of Mass, other forms of service and on occasions, social activities.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
The line referred to by Incensebomb regarding GSS policy is a reflection of the conservative views of the Warden Fr. David Moore as written in his statement regarding the Guild policy of women priests (and deacons).

As Fr. Moore has been in office as Warden continuously for 40 years, he has become in effect a law unto himself. In the fullness of time, when he stands down, things will not necessarily remain so conservative within GSS.

This is my own opinion and nothing I say is set in stone.

I knew that we had a policy not to hold services in churches where there is a woman priest but I never realised that the Guild has a statement saying that it does not recognise women's orders as valid.

As a member of the Guild, that presumes that I don't recognise such orders. However, I am a strong supporter of the OOW and would resign, were i not a life-member.

We took a democratic vote on whether to admit women members. I remember exactly where I was sitting (in the chair - chairperson) when we voted.

Why have we not had a democratic vote on this far more important issue?

Fr. David is not our pope?

I am going to consider a 'temporary resignation' until such time as Fr. David stands down and will write to him to that effect. If this is not taken seriously, I will return my medal and refuse to act as cantor or even attend any more GSS events.

This makes me sad because I joined in the 1960s when it did a lot of good work with young servers and was far wider in its membership (lots of 'prayer book catholic and even MOTR servers joined) than most other catholic societies, with the exception, perhaps, of the Church Union.

Posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop (# 10745) on :

Some chapters -though not all - won't visit a church where a woman priest is on the staff, in which case, she is generally in place as an assistant priest rather than parish priest.

Fr. David Moore recognises that aged 81, although he is in good health, the years are rolling on. To that end, he has appointed Fr. Darren Smith as deputy-warden and I think that is a welcome appointment. Fr. Darren Smith is Chaplain to COF and on the staff of the Additional Curates' Society.

Some individual GSS members belong to churches where there is/are women priest(s) on the staff, but despite this, don't mind keeping their membership going to the extent of regular attendance at meetings.

Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on :

Could I just remind people of my initial Hostly reminder on this thread - it is for discussion of issues relating to worhsip, not personal gossip, and not Dead Horses. No more on this tangent relating to the warden, please.

dj_ordinaire, Eccles host

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
Fr. David Moore ..... has appointed Fr. Darren Smith as deputy-warden and I think that is a welcome appointment. Fr. Darren Smith is Chaplain to COF and on the staff of the Additional Curates' Society.
.

For those not initiated, COF = Candidates for Ordination Fund - it gives welcomed grants to ordinands but only MALE ones.

I may be wrong but ACS only supports male curates so I think it unlikely that there will be a change of policy with a new warden.

Back to the COS. We are desperately seeking to establish a chapter in this diocese - I am on a committee which has been looking into it for two years. But they make it so difficult - we are in a double bind. The chaplain has to be a member of the Society of Catholic priests, We have priests who want to join but they can't because there is no local SCP chapter. nd you can't start a chapter without a member - but can;'t be a member without a chapter......./ grrrr.

[ 30. June 2012, 17:38: Message edited by: leo ]

Posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras (# 11274) on :

I had a look at the Order of St Vincent website, the American affiliate of the GSS. Surprised to see that its chapters are mainly in the American South and that it includes not only TEC but also some of the newer secessionist jurisdictions and potentially the Ordinariate of the Chair of St Peter (one member of its board of directors is an Ordinariate priest, and several are in the secessionist Anglican jurisdictions, as well as in TEC). IME, the Order of St Vincent isn't as active as the GSS in the CofE.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by incensebomb:
The official position of GSS, regarding the OOW is

quote:
The Guild has since its foundation supported the Catholic Order of male deacons and male priests.

It will continue to do so and will not recognise as valid the orders of women ordained to the priesthood.
This dates from 1993 following the General Synods decision to permit the ordination of women to the office of priest in 1992.

I am still at a loss to find out who decided this policy. As I said earlier, it wasn't put to the membership to vote on, unlike women servers. Was it the general council? Or Fr. Moore himself?

Posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop (# 10745) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:

quote:
Originally posted by incensebomb:
The official position of GSS, regarding the OOW is

quote:
The Guild has since its foundation supported the Catholic Order of male deacons and male priests.

It will continue to do so and will not recognise as valid the orders of women ordained to the priesthood.
This dates from 1993 following the General Synods decision to permit the ordination of women to the office of priest in 1992.
I am still at a loss to find out who decided this policy. As I said earlier, it wasn't put to the membership to vote on, unlike women servers. Was it the general council? Or Fr. Moore himself?

I have been on the GSS general council for three years and this policy was determined before my time, so I do not know the answer to that.

About CoS membership, it will take time before there is at leat one chapter in every diocese and it is early days since CoS was formed. I expect it is possible to be a member attached directly to HQ as is the case with GSS and other societies. One can but enquire to the officers.

Posted by St Everild (# 3626) on :

quote:

Back to the COS. We are desperately seeking to establish a chapter in this diocese - I am on a committee which has been looking into it for two years. But they make it so difficult - we are in a double bind. The chaplain has to be a member of the Society of Catholic priests, We have priests who want to join but they can't because there is no local SCP chapter. nd you can't start a chapter without a member - but can;'t be a member without a chapter......./ grrrr.

Leo, you could consider doing what some of us have already done...we linked with an SCP Chapter in an neighbouring Diocese until there were sufficient of us in full membership of the SCP to form a Chapter in our own Diocese. We still have strong links with our "host" chapter. They made us very welcome to meetings and we participated as fully as possible in the life of their chapter until the one in our own diocese was established.
This may be a solution for you to consider? As I said, it worked very well for us.

[code fix]

[ 01. July 2012, 22:24: Message edited by: Mamacita ]

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

We tried that but our clergy reckoned it was too far to travel for chapter meetings with their other commitments.

But we have a new-ish priest 'in our sights'.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

Hooray, we now have a chaplain for the Company of Servers and have a list of potential members so we can be up and running soon and I can try to resign life membership of the GSS or else write the sort of letter than will make them chuck me out.

Posted by St Everild (# 3626) on :

Good news Leo.

Posted by sebby (# 15147) on :

Can one be in both?

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

Wouldn't have thought so - my labour party membership card used to have something about a rule that you'd be thrown out if you work for a candidate from another party.

In any case, I haven't wanted to stay in the GSS since I learned about its ruling on women priests being 'invalid'.

Posted by sebby (# 15147) on :

My elderly parish priest used to pretend to be in the conservative, liberal and labour parties so as not to divide the parish. He found it most useful as he was invited to lead a carol service for al three parties and went to three Christmas lunches which pleased him a great deal.

Posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop (# 10745) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Hooray, we now have a chaplain for the Company of Servers and have a list of potential members so we can be up and running soon and I can try to resign life membership of the GSS or else write the sort of letter than will make them chuck me out.

For a month, this thread seemed to be "dead and buried" but it has now been revived.

Leo, become a Roman Catholic and then your GSS (life) membership will be terminated; but I don't think that course of action fits in with your point of view. Why make them chuck you out if you can resign if you don't like the way things are going? You can send a letter of resignation and see what happens.

Some GSS members take the "blind eye" position and continue to belong and attend guild and chapter meetings, regardless of belonging to and serving at a church where there is a woman priest.

Some people do belong to both GSS and CoS. But as I said in an earlier post, GSS official policy considers that a contradiction of conviction, whereas CoS official policy is that they are an inclusive company.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

We are planning to launch CoS Bristol next March. Seems a long way away, given that we have been working on this for at least years, but that is the slow pace of an AffCath Committee.

My draft GSS resignation letter grows ever more castigating by the minute.

[ 16. August 2012, 20:31: Message edited by: leo ]

Posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop (# 10745) on :

Hmm! Leo, I have to be careful what I say!

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

Careful to whom?! Not to me. You have been most helpful.

Posted by incensebomb (# 14167) on :

Good news about CoS Bristol! Someone needs to get in touch with CoS 'Central' to get it put on the website and to get support in setting up the chapter.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by incensebomb:
Good news about CoS Bristol! Someone needs to get in touch with CoS 'Central' to get it put on the website and to get support in setting up the chapter.

That will be in hand once the summer hols are out of the way.

Posted by Mamacita (# 3659) on :

quote:
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
Could I just remind people of my initial Hostly reminder on this thread - it is for discussion of issues relating to worship....

dj_ordinaire, Eccles host

As most of the recent discussion has focused on issues of membership (and individual ones at that), it seems the thread has run its course.

Mamacita, Eccles Host

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