Ship of Fools: Coloured clerical shirts

Thread: Coloured clerical shirts Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by fr monty (# 17206) on :

I am anglo catholic but delight in wearing coloured clerical shirts fed us of black after ten years. Just moved on from light blue and grey ones, to royal blue and occasionally green.

This is greeted with much hilarity and comment by anglo catholic colleagues.

I wondered I am the only anglo catholic with a love of coloured shirts?

Posted by Tubbs (# 440) on :

As this has nothing to do with Ship's business, off to Eccles we go ...

Tubbs
Styx Host

[ 09. July 2012, 15:46: Message edited by: Tubbs ]

Posted by (S)pike couchant (# 17199) on :

quote:
Originally posted by fr monty:

I wondered I am the only anglo catholic with a love of coloured shirts?

Yes. One should never presume to make such a definite pronouncement, 100% of Anglican clerics whom I have known who've worn coloured clerical shirts are MotR or lower. Anglo-Catholics can, however, be seen with coloured or patterned cuffs (particularly double cuffs with cufflinks) just visible under the cuffs of their cassock or clerical suit, which is very seemly. For one thing, it shows that one is wearing a proper stock with a detachable clerical collar, and not a modish shirt.

In my experience Anglo-Catholic priests almost always wear either a cassock or all black clothing (often a black suit, but I've all sorts of combinations, including black jeans and a black jumper) when in clericals. The only exception to this seems to be a white linen jacket in the summer. When they want to dress less formally than that, most A-C priest seem to dispense with clericals altogether.

Posted by Amos (# 44) on :

I once knew an A-C priest who wore coloured clerical shirts. He was the same one whose stoles I referred to in the 'worst stole' thread: the one whose green stole had a pink cat applique on the back of the neck so that he could kiss the pink pussy whenever he vested. He also had Winnie the Pooh wall stickers in his Rectory kitchen, and seven sets of flying ducks.

I should have known what to expect when I saw the coloured shirts.

Posted by Fr Weber (# 13472) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Amos:
so that he could kiss the pink pussy

...which alone marks him as a rarity among A-C priests...

Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:

quote:
Originally posted by Amos:
so that he could kiss the pink pussy
...which alone marks him as a rarity among A-C priests...

Posted by Arch Anglo Catholic (# 15181) on :

I wear black; only black. It makes me look thinner. This is (a) a good thing and (b) a necessary thing.

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

Light blues and greys are common amongst (Roman) Catholic priests. Black is rare there it seems. On the other hand, if a clerical shirt is a uniform it should be just that and not vary according to the whim of the wearer. Imagine a police officer wearing a pink or an orange shirt.

There seems to be an increasing trend for the fogey tendency among a-cs to wear, as mentioned by (S)pike couchant, striped collarless shirts with cufflinks and a black stock on top. It would make me feel very uncomfortable, both mentally and physically. A black shirt with a tab collar is good enough for the ABC so it's good enough for me! (When I have to wear such things).

Posted by (S)pike couchant (# 17199) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:

There seems to be an increasing trend for the fogey tendency among a-cs to wear, as mentioned by (S)pike couchant, striped collarless shirts with cufflinks and a black stock on top. It would make me feel very uncomfortable, both mentally and physically.

Whence the mental discomfort?

Posted by sebby (# 15147) on :

Why not wear purple? It looks naff on bishops, so why not let the junior clergy have a bash as well?

Or go for something different - either a white shirt with vestock/stock or striped shrt with vestock/stock (black).

I don't understand Angloid's objections. At one time all clergy dressed like that regardless of age or churchmanship before the advent of the clerical shirt - and a number still do. Admittedly it used to be quite comon in St Barnabas Home for the Clergy, but at least they were in collars (some) to the very end!

The striped shirt with separate collar is quite normal for barristers - as are bands. I believe the professions had a common origin.

I happened to be in Larkhill last Friday and saw quite a sight: I just had time to observe a middle aged clergyman on horse back wearing long riding boots, white breeches, hunting pink waistcoat and hacking jacket with a velvet collar. At a quick glance he seemed to have white cuffs and what looked like a full ring collar not made of plastic. That is actually true!

Posted by (S)pike couchant (# 17199) on :

quote:
Originally posted by sebby:
Why not wear purple? It looks naff on bishops, so why not let the junior clergy have a bash as well?

Oh, I agree. Purple clerical shirts are the height of naffness. A purple cassock looks alright, although is probably best reserved for quire dress. For street dress, it looks so much better to wear a black cassock with amaranth buttons and piping, along with an amaranth zucchetto, a fascia of amaranth watered silk, and silk oversleeves piped with amaranth. For formal occasions, add a ferriola of amaranth watered silk.

Or, alternatively, just wear an apron and gaiters. Just please spare use the damn purple shirts!

quote:
Originally posted by sebby:

The striped shirt with separate collar is quite normal for barristers - as are bands. I believe the professions had a common origin.

Quite so: legal, academical, and clerical dress all share a common origin. Thus, the dress for priests, barristers, and BAs/MAs is very similar, as is that for bishops, judges, and doctors. The clearest indication of this may perhaps be seen when comparing the convocation dress of an Oxford DPhil with the ordinary quire dress of an Anglican bishop.

quote:
Originally posted by sebby:

I happened to be in Larkhill last Friday and saw quite a sight: I just had time to observe a middle aged clergyman on horse back wearing long riding boots, white breeches, hunting pink waistcoat and hacking jacket with a velvet collar. At a quick glance he seemed to have white cuffs and what looked like a full ring collar not made of plastic. That is actually true!

Splendid. Although he'd get extra points had he worn a riding cassock. Still, it sounds like a vast improvement over the sloppy way in which most clerks in holy orders dress these days. That said, I did recently attend a ball (if it can be called that — the dress code was only 'black tie') where an Anglican priest was dressed in knee breaches, black silk stockings, and a clerical frock coat.

[ 09. July 2012, 18:30: Message edited by: (S)pike couchant ]

Posted by PD (# 12436) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:

quote:
Originally posted by Amos:
so that he could kiss the pink pussy
...which alone marks him as a rarity among A-C priests...

Father,

Do you have any tips on how to remove coffee from computer keyboards?

PD

Posted by sebby (# 15147) on :

That all said, one must be grateful that the clerical collar is seen AT ALL, whether on a coloured shirt or otherwise.

There was a very silly, one might even say immature, habit in the late 1970s, to perhaps the end of the 1980s, when clergy seemed to abandon the clerical collar in the CofE, and the Church Times seemed to relish taking photographs of such persons so dressed.

It seems as if that affectation seems largely to have passed - apart from those churches where the clergy prefer to wear a jacket and tie and look like middle class estate agents in the mistaken belief that it makes them look more relevant.

I have always thought it makes them look plonkers.

Posted by Fr Weber (# 13472) on :

quote:
Originally posted by PD:

quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:

quote:
Originally posted by Amos:
so that he could kiss the pink pussy
...which alone marks him as a rarity among A-C priests...
Father,

Do you have any tips on how to remove coffee from computer keyboards?

PD

I generally use a colored clerical shirt. Or, in a pinch, an appliqued stole. [Smile]

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

quote:
Originally posted by sebby:

Or go for something different - either a white shirt with vestock/stock or striped shrt with vestock/stock (black).

I don't understand Angloid's objections.

Purely personal. Mainly because it seems a lot of faff to put on, I would lose things like studs and cufflinks, and it goes with formal suits and all that sort of thing. Maybe OK for special occasions but not for day to day trudging round a parish (not that I do that much these days). The parallel with lawyers court dress is liturgical vestments in church, when it doesn't matter what you wear underneath.

Anyway, I hate uniforms. If there is a reason to wear one I will, but otherwise prefer to be casual. The habit doesn't make the monk.

Posted by scuffleball (# 16480) on :

I seem to recall posting this on the ship before, but anyway -

When in Taizé, I met a (female, if it's relevant) minister from the (Lutheran) Church of Sweden wearing a blue clerical. A German expressed surprise, as apparently;

* In Germany only RC ministers wear clericals.
* In Germany all clericals are black/purple/whatever RC colour.

In fact I know this to be false as Ivo Huber, the ecumenical officer of the Bavarian Lutheran Church has a beige clerical; perhaps this varies by Landeskirche, and perhaps Ivo Huber is atypical of German protestant ministers - I seem to recall him taking a great interest in Oxford academic dress and Anglican vestments...

Posted by Spike (# 36) on :

quote:
Originally posted by sebby:
There was a very silly, one might even say immature, habit in the late 1970s, to perhaps the end of the 1980s, when clergy seemed to abandon the clerical collar in the CofE, and the Church Times seemed to relish taking photographs of such persons so dressed.

Really? I don't remember that at all. Perhaps I was worshipping at the wrong sort of church.

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

Our senior leadership (ahem) have a great fondness for clerical shirts in lime green, Hawaiian, or African prints.

Never mind. I was going to comment. never mind.

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
The habit doesn't make the monk.

No, but it does make him visible as a monk, and there are times when that is very useful- to others if not to himself.

Posted by PD (# 12436) on :

quote:
Originally posted by scuffleball:
I seem to recall posting this on the ship before, but anyway -

When in Taizé, I met a (female, if it's relevant) minister from the (Lutheran) Church of Sweden wearing a blue clerical. A German expressed surprise, as apparently;

* In Germany only RC ministers wear clericals.
* In Germany all clericals are black/purple/whatever RC colour.

In fact I know this to be false as Ivo Huber, the ecumenical officer of the Bavarian Lutheran Church has a beige clerical; perhaps this varies by Landeskirche, and perhaps Ivo Huber is atypical of German protestant ministers - I seem to recall him taking a great interest in Oxford academic dress and Anglican vestments...

I seem to think that no clerical shirts tends to hold true-ish in Northern Germany - Hannover, Saxony, Thuringia Brandenburg, Vorpommern and Mecklenburg - but less so among the protestant minor9ties in the southeast. The north was the land of the wing collar and frockcoat until recent years. Gawd knows what they are up to now!

On a completely different tangent, I am not big fan of the purple shirt for bishops. I much prefer my accustomed black. I would revive apron and gaiters in the drop of a (stringed top) hat given my druthers.

PD

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

On that tangent, if there was ever a man born to wear apron and gaiters, PD, it's you (and I mean that as a compliment). But presumably, your diocese being where it is, you would use a western saddle and stirrups on your equestrian visitations. Would standard English-style apron and gaiters work with that, or would they need alteration? I know little of these things.

[ 10. July 2012, 06:18: Message edited by: Albertus ]

Posted by Amos (# 44) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
On that tangent, if there was ever a man born to wear apron and gaiters, PD, it's you (and I mean that as a compliment). But presumably, your diocese being where it is, you would use a western saddle and stirrups on your equestrian visitations. Would standard English-style apron and gaiters work with that, or would they need alteration? I know little of these things.

The word you're groping for, Albertus, is 'chaps'.

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

The very thing! Episcopal chaps. What do you think, PD?

Posted by sebby (# 15147) on :

quote:
Originally posted by scuffleball:
I seem to recall posting this on the ship before, but anyway -

When in Taizé, I met a (female, if it's relevant) minister from the (Lutheran) Church of Sweden wearing a blue clerical. A German expressed surprise, as apparently;

* In Germany only RC ministers wear clericals.
* In Germany all clericals are black/purple/whatever RC colour.

In fact I know this to be false as Ivo Huber, the ecumenical officer of the Bavarian Lutheran Church has a beige clerical; perhaps this varies by Landeskirche, and perhaps Ivo Huber is atypical of German protestant ministers - I seem to recall him taking a great interest in Oxford academic dress and Anglican vestments...

I remember about three years ago meeting a Lutheran minister from Hannover who was a very rare species - an OCF (Officiating Chaplain to the Forces) - and he used to wear a clerical shirt either black or grey, including a formal black one with the ring showing and about one inch in front. He was also obsessed with Anglican dress and customs and found the diaconal ordinations in Salisbury cathedral really moving. A young, scholarly individual, he had his baby baptised in York Minster.

Posted by bib (# 13074) on :

We had a priest who always had such cold hands that he started wearing black gloves during services. I suggested to him that maybe he should wear the correct colour for the church season and he actually took me seriously. Thereafter he appeared in green, red, white, purple or black gloves depending on the time of year. Poor man didn't realise I was joking at his expense.

Posted by sebby (# 15147) on :

The late Msgr Alfred Gilbey, catholic chaplain at Cambridge for many years, used to wear purple gloves as everyday street wear.

Indeed, to see him queuing for the number 12 bus from Picadilly was to behold something from the pages of Evelyn Waugh.

Latterly he rode in a car with driver provided for his use by a grateful former student.

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:

quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
The habit doesn't make the monk.
No, but it does make him visible as a monk, and there are times when that is very useful- to others if not to himself.

I don't think we disagree.

Posted by Padre Joshua (# 13100) on :

I was under the impression that grey and light blue were worn by deacons and possibly seminarians, black by presbyters/priests, and purple by bishops. Am I incorrect?

Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :

Here is the sweltering southwest (central Arizona), black clericals are pretty gruesome in the summer. Light blue, grey, and white are very popular.

Posted by (S)pike couchant (# 17199) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Padre Joshua:
I was under the impression that grey and light blue were worn by deacons and possibly seminarians, black by presbyters/priests, and purple by bishops. Am I incorrect?

I've never heard that. Furthermore, every deacon I've known (including some who are very aware of correct attire) has worn a black clerical shirt or stock. The colour should match that of a cassock and, in the Western Church, cassocks are generally black not only for priests but also for deacons, seminarians and altar servers.

Posted by PD (# 12436) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
Here is the sweltering southwest (central Arizona), black clericals are pretty gruesome in the summer. Light blue, grey, and white are very popular.

I'm up the mountain from you and it is quite hot enough here, thank ye! I used to wear medium grey shirts and grey trousers in summer, especially as I tend to be outdoors to some degree every day. I am also often seen sporting a straw cowboy hat. "The Grey Season" was roughly late May to mid-September up here at 5400 feet. I would imagine it is a couple of months longer down in the Valley.

PD

Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
On that tangent, if there was ever a man born to wear apron and gaiters, PD, it's you (and I mean that as a compliment). But presumably, your diocese being where it is, you would use a western saddle and stirrups on your equestrian visitations. Would standard English-style apron and gaiters work with that, or would they need alteration? I know little of these things.

Not so. I have seen a photograph of the venerable John-Baptist Lamy, protohierarch of Santa Fe, in a riding cassock (common among Spanish-speaking bishops of the era and close enough to the episcopal apron) and gaiters. If he don't need chaps, PD don't need chaps.

Posted by PD (# 12436) on :

Apron and gaiters were riding dress originally. In the 18th century the roads were appalling, so horseback was often the only practical way from A to B. In the biog of Simon Phipps (+Lincoln when I was a kid) there is a picture of him in apron and gaiters riding out with one of the local hunts. He remained reasonably immune to the ravages of middle aged spread, so the outfit and horseback suited him.

Chaps, BTW, are needed because cowboys rope from horseback and one often ends up with the ropes trailing back across your legs. Also when one is going through Juniper brush the chaps defend your legs and jeans against whipped to bits by branches and thorn bushes.

PD

[ 11. July 2012, 06:07: Message edited by: PD ]

Posted by Manipled Mutineer (# 11514) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:

quote:
Originally posted by sebby:

Or go for something different - either a white shirt with vestock/stock or striped shrt with vestock/stock (black).

I don't understand Angloid's objections.
Purely personal. Mainly because it seems a lot of faff to put on, I would lose things like studs and cufflinks, and it goes with formal suits and all that sort of thing. Maybe OK for special occasions but not for day to day trudging round a parish (not that I do that much these days). The parallel with lawyers court dress is liturgical vestments in church, when it doesn't matter what you wear underneath.

Actually you might find that comfort considerations point the other way. My impression from this board is that clerical shirts in pure cotton (which I find substantially more comfortable) are wickedly difficult to find whereas pure cotton tunic shirts are the norm. In addition, the fact that you can simply add a standard turndown collar in matching fabric and they look just like a normal shirt would make it much easier to go incognito, as well as obviating the need to radically change your wardrobe should you be unfrocked. Just a thought.

Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Spike:

quote:
Originally posted by sebby:
There was a very silly, one might even say immature, habit in the late 1970s, to perhaps the end of the 1980s, when clergy seemed to abandon the clerical collar in the CofE, and the Church Times seemed to relish taking photographs of such persons so dressed.
Really? I don't remember that at all. Perhaps I was worshipping at the wrong sort of church.

Quite possibly! Alan Bennett made a few amusing references in some of his work to vicars who didn't look like vicars because it wasn't the right thing to do any more - wearing trainers, or no collars.

'Where did you get those shoes?'
He said, 'They're training shoes.' She said, 'Training for what? Are you not fully qualified?' He said, 'If Jesus were alive today, Mrs Whittaker, I think you'd find these were the type of shoes he would be wearing.' 'Not if his mother had anything to do with it,' she said. 'She'd have him down Stead and Simpson's and get him into some good brogues.....'

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

quote:
Originally posted by PD:
....Chaps, BTW, are needed because cowboys rope from horseback and one often ends up with the ropes trailing back across your legs....

PD

Just the thing, then, for when you've left the ninety-and-nine and have gone after the one that has strayed!

Posted by sebby (# 15147) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:

quote:
Originally posted by Spike:

quote:
Originally posted by sebby:
There was a very silly, one might even say immature, habit in the late 1970s, to perhaps the end of the 1980s, when clergy seemed to abandon the clerical collar in the CofE, and the Church Times seemed to relish taking photographs of such persons so dressed.
Really? I don't remember that at all. Perhaps I was worshipping at the wrong sort of church.
Quite possibly! Alan Bennett made a few amusing references in some of his work to vicars who didn't look like vicars because it wasn't the right thing to do any more - wearing trainers, or no collars.

'Where did you get those shoes?'
He said, 'They're training shoes.' She said, 'Training for what? Are you not fully qualified?' He said, 'If Jesus were alive today, Mrs Whittaker, I think you'd find these were the type of shoes he would be wearing.' 'Not if his mother had anything to do with it,' she said. 'She'd have him down Stead and Simpson's and get him into some good brogues.....'

Hilarious - and what a comment on the role of Our Lady.

Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
Alan Bennett made a few amusing references in some of his work to vicars who didn't look like vicars because it wasn't the right thing to do any more - wearing trainers, or no collars.

'Where did you get those shoes?'
He said, 'They're training shoes.' She said, 'Training for what? Are you not fully qualified?' He said, 'If Jesus were alive today, Mrs Whittaker, I think you'd find these were the type of shoes he would be wearing.' 'Not if his mother had anything to do with it,' she said. 'She'd have him down Stead and Simpson's and get him into some good brogues.....'

I do hope Miss Amanda reads this!

Posted by PaulBC (# 13712) on :

The only shirt a cleric should avoid wearing is one with broad arrow's in them. I mean a cleric in Dartmoor ? Who would believe it !! And before the clerics breath fire at me I don't care what colour shirt you wear just be the best cleric you can be. peace love & joy
[Votive]

Posted by Laurence (# 9135) on :

quote:
Originally posted by (S)pike couchant:
]Quite so: legal, academical, and clerical dress all share a common origin. Thus, the dress for priests, barristers, and BAs/MAs is very similar, as is that for bishops, judges, and doctors. The clearest indication of this may perhaps be seen when comparing the convocation dress of an Oxford DPhil with the ordinary quire dress of an Anglican bishop.

And, indeed, for the trifecta, the old red-and-white robes for a Crown Court judge. Witness red quasi-chimere, black scarf, bands:
High Court judge

Not too different from the Oxford convocation habit (although I think DD is the strongest resemblance, not DPhil). No black scarf; the bands here have mutated into a white bow tie; and a mortar board replaces the wig, natch:

Oxford convocation habit in use at a graduation

And, just to show the family resemblance (but what has this person got on his head? Tat-clash!): Episcopal choir dress

Posted by PD (# 12436) on :

Academic dress and judicial dress are both descended from clerical dress, so the similarities are not surprising. The Bishop's scarlet chimere is not really episcopal dress, but either Oxford or Cambridge DD undress. It comes from the days of Lambeth DDs for every Bishop.

Posted by LostinChelsea (# 5305) on :

quote:
Padre Joshua opined:
I was under the impression that grey and light blue were worn by deacons and possibly seminarians, black by presbyters/priests, and purple by bishops. Am I incorrect?

Ah, you're looking for consistency and logic!?

In the Episcopal Church in the USA, you'll find that customs vary, especially by diocese. In my particular diocese, vocational deacons were instructed by a previous bishop to wear grey (I've seen blue) while performing their diaconal ministries in the community. They are not to wear clericals in the parish, and they certainly aren't to wear black. Priests, on the other hand, tend to be seen in black but sometimes in whatever.

As a seminarian, I was told by friends to ask the bishop before wearing a "seminarian's collar," and color was never mentioned. I mostly avoided the whole thing and wore a shirt and tie until ordination.

Now, I wear a black clerical shirt when I need to look priesty, though a blue or grey shirt sure looks tempting when it's 100 degrees outside!

Posted by sebby (# 15147) on :

quote:
Originally posted by LostinChelsea:

quote:
Padre Joshua opined:
I was under the impression that grey and light blue were worn by deacons and possibly seminarians, black by presbyters/priests, and purple by bishops. Am I incorrect?
Ah, you're looking for consistency and logic!?

In the Episcopal Church in the USA, you'll find that customs vary, especially by diocese. In my particular diocese, vocational deacons were instructed by a previous bishop to wear grey (I've seen blue) while performing their diaconal ministries in the community. They are not to wear clericals in the parish, and they certainly aren't to wear black. Priests, on the other hand, tend to be seen in black but sometimes in whatever.

As a seminarian, I was told by friends to ask the bishop before wearing a "seminarian's collar," and color was never mentioned. I mostly avoided the whole thing and wore a shirt and tie until ordination.

Now, I wear a black clerical shirt when I need to look priesty, though a blue or grey shirt sure looks tempting when it's 100 degrees outside!

My experience is limited, but I have noticed thst TEC clergy seem to wear the 'ring of confidence' style of collar.

Why wouldn't a vocational deacon wear a collar in the parish? They are in Holy Orders. Certainly in the 19thC those academics at Oxford who were in deacons' orders only, used to wear what was then clerical dress (white bow tie or cravat and black or grey clothes).

Methodist deacons are able (I believe) to wear clerical shirts and blue or white is encouraged. On Google Images I noted a well known Methodist deacon wearing a black clerical shirt.

Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :

A now-expired clerical friend was present wearing a grey clerical shirt at a papal audience with an intimate group of a thousand or so (just about 1970 IIRC) when he was recognized in the crowd by Paul VI in Latin-- Ecce sacerdos anglicanus!

Clerical shirts seem to be dying out here, to be replaced by golf shirts as the cool clerical attire. Sadly, they do not have the ascetic builds which would carry them off aesthetically.

Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :

Our Bishop sent out a decree a year or so ago -- clergy were to wear clericals at ALL diocesan functions except the casual days during clergy conferences. He also hinted pretty strongly that they should be worn regularly in the parish. Color wasn't specified.

Posted by Amos (# 44) on :

A decree? Really? The last person I know who tried to do that was Cardinal Bernard Law. The Jesuits used to indicate their opinion of it (and him) by wearing golf shirts (or at least anything but a clericals) instead.

[ 14. July 2012, 12:26: Message edited by: Amos ]

Posted by Pyx_e (# 57) on :

I have bought a blue clerical shirt*. Sometimes I try it on in front of the mirror, it makes me laugh everytime.

Black FFS.

AtB, Pyx_e

* Why? you ask. " A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of the small minded." I reply.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

You can come and do my last rites then.

I have a sort of fantasy of being on my deathbed at a local hospital and being approached by a minister in a blue shirt. Blue denotes, for me, the sort of churchpersonship that means that before I made my confession I would have to explain the minister what s/he had to say and do.

Too much hassle. May as well die unshriven and trust that God is as merciful as he says he is.

Posted by Pyx_e (# 57) on :

My diary runs out soon, should I buy a new one or can we fit it in?

AtB Pyx_e

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Blue denotes, for me, the sort of churchpersonship that means that before I made my confession I would have to explain the minister what s/he had to say and do.

Light blue at least would be as likely to be seen on a RC.

Posted by PD (# 12436) on :

Dark blue always yells Presbyterian to me even though every C of S or Wee Free chap I have ever run into in the UK has worn dark grey or black with the old-fashioned cellulose halo! Oh well, there is no accounting for perception.

Around here the RCs seem to wear medium grey or black tread-thrus. Though if one does see someone in a frightful colour shirt it is a safe bet to assume RC.

The Lutherans are collar and tie guys in this neck of the woods (pun intended!)

PD

[ 14. July 2012, 23:29: Message edited by: PD ]

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
My diary runs out soon, should I buy a new one or can we fit it in?

AtB Pyx_e

Just give me absolution. Take my sins as 'read'.

Posted by Basilica (# 16965) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:
You can come and do my last rites then.

I have a sort of fantasy of being on my deathbed at a local hospital and being approached by a minister in a blue shirt. Blue denotes, for me, the sort of churchpersonship that means that before I made my confession I would have to explain the minister what s/he had to say and do.

Too much hassle. May as well die unshriven and trust that God is as merciful as he says he is.

I was recently at a bedside when the presence of a chaplain was requested. She came in a frilly cream clerical shirt and declared that the Last Rites had been abolished and that nowadays we just do anointing. I didn't quibble (it wasn't quite the moment, and the person in question was a low-church Methodist anyway), but it was a bit of a struggle...

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

'Last Rites' is a quick way of saying confession, anointing and viaticum (for for the journey = communion)

Posted by LostinChelsea (# 5305) on :

quote:
Sebby retorted:
Why wouldn't a vocational deacon wear a collar in the parish?

An excellent question, and I don't want to derail the discussion at hand.

Basically, the bishop revived the vocational diaconate (which to my knowledge had never been a part of this diocese) and was dealing with the difficult task of making clear to everyone involved the distinctive role of vocational deacons over and against priests, bishops, and lay persons. I'm sure he wanted to avoid the perception of the deacon as "junior priest," and it had something to do with the role of deacon in mission outside the parish rather than as liturgical assistant within. It's a complicated and thorny issue and how it's addressed will evolve over time.

Obviously, it's about far more than coloured shirts!

Posted by seasick (# 48) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Basilica:
I was recently at a bedside when the presence of a chaplain was requested. She came in a frilly cream clerical shirt and declared that the Last Rites had been abolished and that nowadays we just do anointing. I didn't quibble (it wasn't quite the moment, and the person in question was a low-church Methodist anyway), but it was a bit of a struggle...

Who was the low-church Methodist? The patient or the cleric?

[ 17. July 2012, 17:25: Message edited by: seasick ]

Posted by sebby (# 15147) on :

quote:
Originally posted by LostinChelsea:

quote:
Sebby retorted:
Why wouldn't a vocational deacon wear a collar in the parish?
An excellent question, and I don't want to derail the discussion at hand.

Basically, the bishop revived the vocational diaconate (which to my knowledge had never been a part of this diocese) and was dealing with the difficult task of making clear to everyone involved the distinctive role of vocational deacons over and against priests, bishops, and lay persons. I'm sure he wanted to avoid the perception of the deacon as "junior priest," and it had something to do with the role of deacon in mission outside the parish rather than as liturgical assistant within. It's a complicated and thorny issue and how it's addressed will evolve over time.

Obviously, it's about far more than coloured shirts!

I accept the logic, but see it as a mistake.At clergy gathrings (interdiocesan) wouldn't the vocational deacons wear collars?

It's like the custom in some AC churches of not calling a male cleric 'Father' until he is in priest's orders. There is no reason whatsoever for witholding the title - in Orthodoxy I understand that in some places even monks who are lay are called 'Father'. It is not a refernce to a sacerdotal function.

Posted by Fr Weber (# 13472) on :

quote:
Originally posted by sebby:

It's like the custom in some AC churches of not calling a male cleric 'Father' until he is in priest's orders. There is no reason whatsoever for witholding the title - in Orthodoxy I understand that in some places even monks who are lay are called 'Father'. It is not a refernce to a sacerdotal function.

In this the AC churches are following the normal custom in Latin Christianity; Anglicans are, after all, Latin Rite Christians, notwithstanding recent attempts to borrow Eastern flavor.

Posted by sebby (# 15147) on :

Not entirely recent. The compilers of different versions of the BCP were also (to an extent) willing to look Eastwards.

Posted by Fr Weber (# 13472) on :

quote:
Originally posted by sebby:
Not entirely recent. The compilers of different versions of the BCP were also (to an extent) willing to look Eastwards.

True, I think, of the Scottish and American books to a small degree (although Episcopalians choked way back on the Eastern borrowings of the Non-Jurors). Both traditions, to say nothing of the English, are still pretty clearly Latin Rite, and the theology behind them is Augustinian via the Reformed. It doesn't get much more Latin than that. [Biased]

Posted by sebby (# 15147) on :

Not forgetting the twice daily recitiation according to the rubrics of the BCP of the Prayer of St John Chrysostom of course.

But you are right IMO about the rest of the Latin influence.

Posted by Papouli (# 17209) on :

quote:
Originally posted by sebby:

It's like the custom in some AC churches of not calling a male cleric 'Father' until he is in priest's orders. There is no reason whatsoever for witholding the title - in Orthodoxy I understand that in some places even monks who are lay are called 'Father'. It is not a refernce to a sacerdotal function.

Traditionally, the Orthodox address all members of the priesthood and monastics as "Father." Until the beginning of the 20th century, in Greece, even Readers were called "Father" (as they possess the first degree of priesthood in the Church).

In the US, the Antiochians began the custom of calling Deacons by their ministry (ie Deacon John) rather than the correct form of Father John. I'm sure they copied this from the Catholics, but it is certainly incorrect (do we call someone Priest John or Presbyter John?). This non-traditional custom has, unfortunately, crept into the other archdioceses here.

Posted by regulator reverend (# 16890) on :

Many will be horrified, but I wear black clericals when very formal, but clergy t-shirts (with tunnel collars) when less formal, but I still want ot be seen in the collar. They come in some delicious colours. [Cool]

Posted by Padre Joshua (# 13100) on :

I like to eat lunch on Sundays at a restaurant a couple doors down from the church. I'm well known in there, probably because of the fact that I'm always in clericals when I go in there.

Sunday was no exception. I was standing in line, waiting my turn to pay, when a stranger greeted me -- not an unusual thing at all, since a) I'm wearing clericals in a place that is unused to them, and b) this is a lake town, with many vacationers -- not much different from a beach town or town in the mountains. His wife was rather plainly dressed, but I had already noticed his clothing at the very beginning: torn designer jeans, black tee shirt with some sort of design on it, and a "faux-hawk" hair style. I had smiled and nodded when we'd made eye contact across the dining room as I was looking for a seat.

Anyway, I was standing there, in line, and he came up to me and said, "Hello, Deacon, how are you?"

"Fine, thank you. And you?"

"I'm fine. Where are you from?"

I told him. His next question was, "So what brings you here?"

"I'm the pastor of the Methodist church just up the street."

He looked surprised. "Methodist? Wow. Well, I go to a Charismatic Episcopal church. I'm sure we could have some very interesting conversations. Have a great day, Deacon."

What struck me about all that was that he (twice) called me "Deacon". I was wearing a dark grey tab collar, so I'm guessing that's one place where grey is used for deacons.

Not to mention the Charismatic Episcopal Church, which I found to be extremely interesting. I think I've seen it all!

[ 24. July 2012, 11:14: Message edited by: Padre Joshua ]

Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on :

quote:
Originally posted by regulator reverend:
Many will be horrified, but I wear black clericals when very formal, but clergy t-shirts (with tunnel collars) when less formal, but I still want ot be seen in the collar. They come in some delicious colours.

I take it you don't mean these then? [Biased]

Posted by Fr Weber (# 13472) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Papouli:

quote:
Originally posted by sebby:

It's like the custom in some AC churches of not calling a male cleric 'Father' until he is in priest's orders. There is no reason whatsoever for witholding the title - in Orthodoxy I understand that in some places even monks who are lay are called 'Father'. It is not a refernce to a sacerdotal function.
Traditionally, the Orthodox address all members of the priesthood and monastics as "Father." Until the beginning of the 20th century, in Greece, even Readers were called "Father" (as they possess the first degree of priesthood in the Church).

In the US, the Antiochians began the custom of calling Deacons by their ministry (ie Deacon John) rather than the correct form of Father John. I'm sure they copied this from the Catholics, but it is certainly incorrect (do we call someone Priest John or Presbyter John?). This non-traditional custom has, unfortunately, crept into the other archdioceses here.

The priesthood is the only exception, though. Bishops are normally addressed as "Bishop X" or "Archbishop Y," and even some honorary titles (like "Canon") function similarly.

Posted by sebby (# 15147) on :

Although the OP was concerned about the colour of clerical shirts, might this be broadened out to include STYLE?

I have noticed that the tunnel neck variety seem to be the most common - well, amongst the clergy one sees around. The more formal sort showing white all the way around with a space at the front seem more recent creations (1980s) but not as common. There used to be the shirts that looked like ordniary lay shirts, but had a white piece at the front instead of a tie. I hardly ever see these now

Posted by Chap (# 4926) on :

As an army chaplain I am in uniform the majority of the time but when in clericals they are always black with full collar.

Posted by Basilica (# 16965) on :

quote:
Originally posted by sebby:
I have noticed that the tunnel neck variety seem to be the most common - well, amongst the clergy one sees around. The more formal sort showing white all the way around with a space at the front seem more recent creations (1980s) but not as common.

I've had this style of collar explained to me as an attempt to look like an old-fashioned clerical collar (1.5" of white all around) under a cassock. The same person suggested to me that the concept of a clerical shirt was to be an adaptation of the cassock to be practical for everyday modern life, when clergy can't go around all day in their cassocks (vide a recent thread on this board).

Is this a rather optimistic reinterpretation of history, or is there something to this?

Posted by sebby (# 15147) on :

Do any shipmaes have experience of clergy wearing a 'Christian Brothers' collar? That is a collar showing a very thin band of white all around (about 3 mm), but no opening at the front.

Posted by infoleather (# 17335) on :

When the clergy seem to give up "seems to relish taking COFE priest collar, and the Church Times, such a person, such a dress.

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

[Ultra confused]

Posted by The Scrumpmeister (# 5638) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:

Looking at the contributor's three posts thus far, I detect a bot. I'm sure the hosts and admins will pick up on it and act accordingly.

These posts are kind of funny, though.

Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on :

quote:
Originally posted by The Scrumpmeister:

quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:

Looking at the contributor's three posts thus far, I detect a bot. I'm sure the hosts and admins will pick up on it and act accordingly.

These posts are kind of funny, though.

A bot indeed - but you are right, the stream-of-consciousness thread necromancy was kind of amusing!

Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :

That last one ended in an almost mystic reverie - "and the Church Times, such a person, such a dress...".

I could almost imagine those being my last words on Earth, sitting in a peacock chair with a glass of gin in my hand, gazing out at a rural sunset.

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

If you ask me, it's the ghost of Edith Sitwell.

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
That last one ended in an almost mystic reverie - "and the Church Times, such a person, such a dress...".

I could almost imagine those being my last words on Earth, sitting in a peacock chair with a glass of gin in my hand, gazing out at a rural sunset.

Posted by Mamacita (# 3659) on :

quote:
Originally posted by The Scrumpmeister:
Looking at the contributor's three posts thus far, I detect a bot. I'm sure the hosts and admins will pick up on it and act accordingly.

Judging from the alerts posted in the H&A lounge, it seems like they strike most often in Eccles. Perhaps they know where to find the cleverest retorts.

Posted by sebby (# 15147) on :

I have detected on here a hint that clergy seem to be more in their collars these days than previously - say towards the end of the 70s and into the 80s.

However, I can't remember when I last saw a vicar in the street. Maybe this is one more little thing that contributes to the church's invisibility, and maybe the march of secularism and 'church reserved for those inside' sort of thing? A quick walk along a sea front last week past the casinos and jostling holiday makers made me ponder 'wouldn't it be nice just to see a cleric amongst them or walking past?'

This used to be said also of the police, who began to lose touch when they just drove past in panda cars. There was a concerted effort to get them more visible.

Similarly, the Armed Forces have been encouraged to wear their uniforms in the street once again. The huge PR success of them helping at the Olypmics was due to their visibilty - and politeness.

The admirable exception is the Salvation Army who proudly wear their unifrom and 'Fire and Blood' insignia in the most gruesome of venues, with pride and service.

I remember Ken once agreeing that the sight of acollar to an 'outsider' is a symbol of the church personified - whatever our internal ecclesiology may think; it happens to be the reality

Whatever the argument for special clothes may be for church itself. maybe the more powerful argument is for a distinctive dress OUTSIDE church as the greater priority?

Posted by Poppy (# 2000) on :

There are 39 churches in the town where I work and there are a lot of ministers. Very few wear clerical dress. I do, as matching black with black is nice and easy first thing in the morning, but I realise I'm very much in the minority around here.

Posted by leftfieldlover (# 13467) on :

In a bit of a rush, but did someone say 'stockings'? If so, how do they keep them up? Suspenders or....?

Posted by Olaf (# 11804) on :

0

quote:
Originally posted by Mamacita:

quote:
Originally posted by The Scrumpmeister:
Looking at the contributor's three posts thus far, I detect a bot. I'm sure the hosts and admins will pick up on it and act accordingly.
Judging from the alerts posted in the H&A lounge, it seems like they strike most often in Eccles. Perhaps they know where to find the cleverest retorts.

Or perhaps there is more than a passing similarity between the average Eccles personality and a bot.

Posted by ChrisHuriwai (# 17111) on :

I used to be an All Black (rather apt for a New Zealander) shirt wearing cleric until very recently. I made the leap and purchased a grey shirt...turns out it is too big and I have literally only worn it once, a sign perhaps.

Posted by Mamacita (# 3659) on :

Welcome to Ship of Fools, ChrisHuriwai. There's a general Introductions Thread on the All Saints board if you're interested. Enjoy sailing with us.

Mamacita, Ecclesiantics Host

Posted by Alogon (# 5513) on :

I'm of two minds. On the one hand, God made all the colors in the rainbow. Why should anyone wish to renounce all of them but one?

On the other hand, perhaps our society, being more-or-less democratic, is too enamored of individual choices and options for its own good. When we are given a choice, we expect that the choice we make will solve a problem for us. But it usually doesn't: we still have all the same problems. So instead of a habit of godly (and life-enhancing) thanksgiving, we give in to disappointment and pique.

Nevertheless, I don't want the government restricting my choices any more than the next person does. Perhaps in the example of representatives who have voluntary surrendered a few, the church can remind us not to make an idol of them.

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