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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Black Gowns in the Church of England
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Oxonian Ecclesiastic
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# 12722
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Posted
I am interested in the use of the gown (often called a 'Geneva gown') for preaching. I know that a gown is traditionally worn for the University Sermon at Oxford (and presumably at another place); but is it now ever worn in parish churches? I am aware that it was the use at S. John-on-the-Wall in Bristol before it was made redundant, but perhaps the practice has now gone the way of all flesh?
My understanding is that the surplice would have been worn to conduct Morning and Evening Prayer, and the minister would have retired to the vestry during the hymn before the sermon in order to change into the gown. But is this quite right? Or would the gown have been worn for the whole liturgy, the surplice only appearing when Holy Communion is celebrated?
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Helen-Eva
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# 15025
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Posted
I'm afraid I don't know about black gowns for preaching in (outside the context of Russell Thorndike's Dr Syn novels). However, I wear my university gown for playing the organ at funerals as it looks reasonably smart and sombre. (Our choir cassocks are a rather bright and cheerful shade of red.)
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(S)pike couchant
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# 17199
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oxonian Ecclesiastic:
I know that a gown is traditionally worn for the University Sermon at Oxford (and presumably at another place);
Well, yes, but at a University Sermon everyone wears a gown, including people in the congregation (the only exception is the cleric who gives the final blessing, who wears a surplice and hood, at least at Cambridge). Furthermore, the gowns worn are, of course, part of the University's academic(al) dress and not the so-called 'Geneva gown'.
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'Still the towers of Trebizond, the fabled city, shimmer on the far horizon, gated and walled' but Bize her yer Trabzon.
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
I think George Carey sometimes used to wear a Geneva Gown (and preaching tabs?) when he was a vicar in Durham
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
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(S)pike couchant
Shipmate
# 17199
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Posted
I have to say that I find the idea of a Geneva Gown in an Anglican context very strange. I've seen references to preachers wearing a 'black gown', but I've always seen this glossed as referring to the gown of their degree or, for clergymen who were not graduates, a black 'lay gown' with the so called 'literate's hood', i.e. a hood of unlined black stuff (not to be confused with a hood of black stuff lined with black silk, which — depending on its shape — signifies that the wearer has a BD from Oxford, Cambridge, or Durham).
ETA: in my experience, laymen invited to preach in Anglican churches still generally wear the gown of their degree either over a cassock or a lounge suit, although this is not universal and I have seen some who simply wear a lounge suit.
[ 12. July 2012, 14:35: Message edited by: (S)pike couchant ]
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'Still the towers of Trebizond, the fabled city, shimmer on the far horizon, gated and walled' but Bize her yer Trabzon.
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PD
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# 12436
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Posted
The English Preaching gown is not "Genevan" at all. That is a slur on its good character started by 19th century Ritualists. It is, like the Lutheran talar, an adaption of the late mediaeval priest's gown, and was originally clerical street dress. In those times sermons were often independent of the liturgy so were preached by a clergyman in street dress - cassock and gown - which is how the gown - preaching link came to be forged.
The practice I am familiar with from the old FCE was surplice for Morning Prayer and the Litany, then change into the black gown for the sermon. When you had two clergy present, the officiant wore surplice and tippet all the way through, and the preacher would wear gown and tippet all the way through. I do not recall the preaching gown used at Communion, but my hunch would be that it was either not used (no sermon or presbyter preached in surplice) or it was worn for the sermon and then the surplice resumed for the sacrament. This would have been a carry-over from mid-nineteenth century C of E practice.
I think by the 1980s, out of 27 churches I think only about 2 FCE parishes were still using the preaching gown. There were always rumours that some of the Proprietry Chapels, licensed by the C of E, such as St Mary's Castle Street, Reading used it, but I never happened to be in Reading on a Sunday for a looksee.
PD
[ 12. July 2012, 15:02: Message edited by: PD ]
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(S)pike couchant
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# 17199
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PD:
In thise times sermons were often independent of the liturgy so were preached by a clergyman in street dress - cassock and gown.
The panegyric at — or, rather, after — a requiem is preached in cassock, cloak, and biretta, which is presumably another holdover from this practice.
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'Still the towers of Trebizond, the fabled city, shimmer on the far horizon, gated and walled' but Bize her yer Trabzon.
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Arch Anglo Catholic
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# 15181
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Posted
I regularly wear cassock, gown, tippet, hood and bands, a la the Sainted Percy Dearmer of immortal memory and top it all off, in very cold weather, with a canterbury cap, but then I may be a little out of step coming as I do from darkest Shropshire. The gown is academical and not Genevan, in the English tradition; I see no good reason to adopt the garb of an overseas church!
The gown is practical, warm (which is a bonus!) and tidy. It covers a multitude of sins.
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by (S)pike couchant:
ETA: in my experience, laymen invited to preach in Anglican churches still generally wear the gown of their degree either over a cassock or a lounge suit, although this is not universal and I have seen some who simply wear a lounge suit.
![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
I think you should get out more!
You are describning a tiny minority of CofE churches. Lay people preaching in suits, yes, but not that often, cassocks probably only if licensed Readers or assisting at Communion (and then not everywehre), and clergy sometimes preach in suits as well, (though nowhere near as often as twenty or thirty years ago) But in an academic gown? I can't remember when I last saw that in a parish church. In cathedrals sometimes, college chapels perhaps, but not ordiary churches. There is one parish near us where the organist wears a gown and hood.
The more catholic-minded places tend not to let lay people preach anyway, and when they do they are often in some sort of "deaconing" role and therefore vestments, or in cassock and surplice. In other CofE churches, whether Evangelical or MOTR, there is less dressing up (though more than there used to be) and lay people preaching (other than licensed Readers) are likely to wear whatever it is they woudl normally wear to church - which probably isn't a suit and tie for most of them. Readers will often (but not always) wear cassock and surplice.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
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PD
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# 12436
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Posted
Ken - I had noticed that the ancedotal evidence for the 'manic suit preachers' had declined a bit in recent years. I think the current in thing is an ill-fitting cassock-alb and an efnik stole - which almost makes me wish for the preaching gown back! However cassock-alb and stole is definitely preferable to a shiney suit!
PD
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(S)pike couchant
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# 17199
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Posted
I've seen the following outfits worn by lay people preaching (priests obviously and invaribly wear cassock, cotta, and usually a stole):
- The Convocation Habit of an Oxford DPhil, worn somewhat naughtily over a surplice (this was at Society of King Charles the Martyr event)
- The undress gown of a Cambridge PhD worn over a lounge suit
- The undress gown of a Cambridge LittD with appropriate hood, worn over a lounge suit
- A plain black academic gown worn over a cassock with bands
- A cassock and surplice with hood (many times, mostly by school masters and the like)
- A cassock and cotta without hood (many times, in each case by either a lay pastoral assistant or a seminarian)
- A lounge suit (twice)
- Riding boots, jodhpurs, a turtleneck, bomber jacket and a pectoral cross — but this was Douglas Gresham, whose a bit eccentric, to say the least
I don't really approve of just showing up in a lounge suit — or jodhpurs, for that matter — it seems a bit too much of 'look at me, I'm an individual', which can too easily degenerate into a cult of personality type situation.
[ 12. July 2012, 15:29: Message edited by: (S)pike couchant ]
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'Still the towers of Trebizond, the fabled city, shimmer on the far horizon, gated and walled' but Bize her yer Trabzon.
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Albertus
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# 13356
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Posted
Trying to think what I wore on the few occasions that I- as a layman in the CofE have preached. I'd incline to agree with Ken about what is typical (and this were all in aff-cathy Southwark parishes in the early-mid 90s). When I was a lay pastoral assistant, on the staff, I always wore cassock and surplice/cotta for services and so would have preached in those. Then I preached a couple of times in my parish church as a potential ordinand, and once later as part of a series of Lent (I think) sermons by laypeople- pretty sure I wore whatever I'd have worn at that time for sitting in the congregation.
I like the idea of wearing the gown of my degree* to preach in if I were ever to preach again, but I suspect, (S)pike Couchant, that actually owning such a gown is rather more common in the circles that you appear to move in than among the population at large!
(Tho' I think that if I were to wear the very gaudy gown of my highest degree- crimson with mazarin blue / green shot silk facings!- that really would be a 'look at me' moment.)
[ 12. July 2012, 16:38: Message edited by: Albertus ]
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(S)pike couchant
Shipmate
# 17199
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
(Tho' I think that if I were to wear the very gaudy gown of my highest degree- crimson with mazarin blue / green shot silk facings!- that really would be a 'look at me' moment.)
Given that the University of Wales makes provision for an undress PhD gown, it might be wiser to wear that, except perhaps on major feasts of the Church year and on certain other days of national celebration!
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'Still the towers of Trebizond, the fabled city, shimmer on the far horizon, gated and walled' but Bize her yer Trabzon.
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Albertus
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# 13356
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Posted
Yes indeed, I thought of that, but only after the edit window had closed, and I didn't want to double-post! Would probably be best to stick with the good old MA Cantab, which is about as plain and unshowy as it gets (rather like the academic side of my undergraduate career, in fact).
Tangent: How is CUHAGS these days, by the way? (I take it from something you've said elsewhere that you're a Cambridge man?) Is the Marquis still around?
[ 12. July 2012, 20:07: Message edited by: Albertus ]
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jlav12
Apprentice
# 17148
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Posted
Not CofE but the gown was the normative vesture of clergy in PECUSA before the 1820's. It was really Bishop Hobart (and others) who promoted the use of the surplice just before the arrival of the Tracts.
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Papouli
Apprentice
# 17209
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Posted
At the prep school I attended in Canada, it was fairly common to see Anglican priests wearing cassock, gown, hood, scarf and tabs up until the 1980's; both for services and academic events.
+FA
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mettabhavana
Apprentice
# 16217
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Posted
(S)pike couchant wrote:
quote:
I've seen the following outfits worn by lay people preaching (priests obviously and invaribly wear cassock, cotta, and usually a stole):
...
A plain black academic gown worn over a cassock with bands
...
Interesting - that would make the lay person look like a nonconformist minister. Methodists, Baptists, Reformed etc. reserve bands (aka tabs) to ordained (not student or probationary) presbyters. I gather the distinction is less strict with Anglicans. Do Roman Catholics ever wear bands?
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And are we yet alive?
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(S)pike couchant
Shipmate
# 17199
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mettabhavana:
Do Roman Catholics ever wear bands?
Yes, if the Curé d'Ars is an example.
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'Still the towers of Trebizond, the fabled city, shimmer on the far horizon, gated and walled' but Bize her yer Trabzon.
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mettabhavana:
(S)pike couchant wrote:
quote:
I've seen the following outfits worn by lay people preaching (priests obviously and invaribly wear cassock, cotta, and usually a stole):
...
A plain black academic gown worn over a cassock with bands
...
Interesting - that would make the lay person look like a nonconformist minister. Methodists, Baptists, Reformed etc. reserve bands (aka tabs) to ordained (not student or probationary) presbyters. I gather the distinction is less strict with Anglicans. Do Roman Catholics ever wear bands?
That sounds like some kind of University offical to me- a proctor or some such.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by (S)pike couchant:
...priests obviously and invaribly wear cassock, cotta, and usually a stole...
I hope that's meant as a joke.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by (S)pike couchant:
...priests obviously and invaribly wear cassock, cotta, and usually a stole...
I hope that's meant as a joke.
Not in (S)c's circles, I don't think.
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Crowd: We're all individuals!
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(S)pike couchant
Shipmate
# 17199
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
quote:
Originally posted by mettabhavana:
(S)pike couchant wrote:
quote:
I've seen the following outfits worn by lay people preaching (priests obviously and invaribly wear cassock, cotta, and usually a stole):
...
A plain black academic gown worn over a cassock with bands
...
Interesting - that would make the lay person look like a nonconformist minister. Methodists, Baptists, Reformed etc. reserve bands (aka tabs) to ordained (not student or probationary) presbyters. I gather the distinction is less strict with Anglicans. Do Roman Catholics ever wear bands?
That sounds like some kind of University offical to me- a proctor or some such.
Actually, in this case, he was a lay canon.
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'Still the towers of Trebizond, the fabled city, shimmer on the far horizon, gated and walled' but Bize her yer Trabzon.
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(S)pike couchant
Shipmate
# 17199
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by (S)pike couchant:
...priests obviously and invaribly wear cassock, cotta, and usually a stole...
I hope that's meant as a joke.
Not in (S)c's circles, I don't think.
Fascinated as I am to know what 'my circles' are in Angloid's estimation, I stand by that statement in a modified form. The normative vestiture of a clerk in holy orders who is preaching a sermon is a cassock, a surplice (broadly defined to include 'tropical kit'), and possibly (although by no means invariably) something around the neck (generally a stole these days, although tippets show up in some markedly old-fashioned low church places).
As evidence that this is normative, I would submit every single television series to feature an Anglican cleric in the past 30 years.
It is, indeed, so normative that I would suspect that any Anglican cleric attired otherwise is attempting to make some very definite point. This point is probably 'look at me — I"M AN EVANGELICAL', at least if the outfit is a clerical suit or something of that kind. Said cleric is within his rights, but it's no use pretending that his attire is any more normative than a priest who shows up wearing buckled shoes, a cotta trimmed in deepest lace with a mozzetta and a Spanish biretta piped in cherry, as edifying as such attire would doubtless be for all who witnessed it.
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'Still the towers of Trebizond, the fabled city, shimmer on the far horizon, gated and walled' but Bize her yer Trabzon.
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Oxonian Ecclesiastic
Shipmate
# 12722
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Posted
quote:
The normative vestiture of a clerk in holy orders who is preaching a sermon is a cassock, a surplice (broadly defined to include 'tropical kit'), and possibly (although by no means invariably) something around the neck (generally a stole these days, although tippets show up in some markedly old-fashioned low church places).
It surely depends on the service? I am sure if the service is Baptism or Holy Communion that the normative vesture in the Church of England includes a stole; but the scarf is surely expected for non-sacramental services?
I have been informed that the statutes of Trinity Church Buxton require the use of the black gown in preaching. Whether this continues, I have no idea. I know that in other proprietary chapels (e.g., Emmanuel Church Wimbledon) the norm is now to wear street clothes for divine service. What the Reformers (or even the Evangelical leaders of the eighteenth century) make of this is anyone's guess, but I cannot believe they are happy about preachers masquerading as auctioneers.
Posts: 174 | From: London | Registered: Jun 2007
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Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by (S)pike couchant:
The normative vestiture of a clerk in holy orders who is preaching a sermon is a cassock, a surplice (broadly defined to include 'tropical kit'), and possibly (although by no means invariably) something around the neck (generally a stole these days, although tippets show up in some markedly old-fashioned low church places).
Depends on the service. At the Eucharist in most non-Evangelical Anglican places, the preacher (if ordained) would be wearing alb or cassock-alb and stole. If the preacher was also the president, then s/he would also be wearing a chasuble.
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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
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(S)pike couchant
Shipmate
# 17199
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by (S)pike couchant:
a surplice (broadly defined to include 'tropical kit'), and possibly (although by no means invariably)
What's 'tropical kit'?
A version of the surplice made less warm by cutting away a third or even a half of the fabric, as perhaps worn by young RN chaplains in tropical climes during the Second World War (Stephenson 1972). To further reduce heat, part of the garment may be made of lace. Any resemblance to a 'cotta' is, of course, wholly intentional.
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'Still the towers of Trebizond, the fabled city, shimmer on the far horizon, gated and walled' but Bize her yer Trabzon.
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Enoch
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# 14322
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Posted
It is over 45 years since I last saw a clergyman wearing buckled shoes, and he was a man who if he could have got hold of a wig, or found out reliably what Parson Woodforde normally wore to take a service, he would have worn the same. He would have referred to anyone who wore,
"a cotta trimmed in deepest lace with a mozzetta and a Spanish biretta piped in cherry",
as a Papist, and meant it.
Incidentally, does any clerical outfitter still offer buckled shoes?
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(S)pike couchant
Shipmate
# 17199
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
It is over 45 years since I last saw a clergyman wearing buckled shoes, and he was a man who if he could have got hold of a wig, or found out reliably what Parson Woodforde normally wore to take a service, he would have worn the same. He would have referred to anyone who wore,
"a cotta trimmed in deepest lace with a mozzetta and a Spanish biretta piped in cherry",
as a Papist, and meant it.
You need to get out more. I know at least one bishop and at least two priests who habitually sport buckled shoes.
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'Still the towers of Trebizond, the fabled city, shimmer on the far horizon, gated and walled' but Bize her yer Trabzon.
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by (S)pike couchant:
It is, indeed, so normative that I would suspect that any Anglican cleric attired otherwise is attempting to make some very definite point. This point is probably 'look at me — I"M AN EVANGELICAL', at least if the outfit is a clerical suit or something of that kind. .
While it is much rarer than it used to be to see CofE priests leading worship in clericall shirt and dog collar it is still far from unknown and by no means limited to evangelicals.
Leading worship with no distinctive clerical dress at all probably is pretty much confined to evangelicals within the CofE. particularly to the charismatic evangelicals, but its not at all an attempt to say "look at me I'm an evangelical". Many of them aren't trying to make a point by it because it is for them the unmarked state, the default state. Its what they would have been used to when they went to church when they were kids - it was probably more common then anyway - so they aren't at all making a point by it.
quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
At the Eucharist in most non-Evangelical Anglican places, the preacher (if ordained) would be wearing alb or cassock-alb and stole. If the preacher was also the president, then s/he would also be wearing a chasuble.
Well yes, obviously. And both albs and cassock-albs have been getting more popular recently and there are even evangelicals who wear them now (though not chasubles so much!). Including some who would never be seen dead in a cotta. Who wouldn't even know what a cotta is. (Assuming we aren't just using "cotta" as a synonym of "surplice" which seems a rather silly usage)
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
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Corvo
Shipmate
# 15220
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by (S)pike couchant:
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
It is over 45 years since I last saw a clergyman wearing buckled shoes . . .
You need to get out more. I know at least one bishop and at least two priests who habitually sport buckled shoes.
(Big) buckled or monk shoes?
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Boat Boy
Shipmate
# 13050
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by (S)pike couchant:
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
It is over 45 years since I last saw a clergyman wearing buckled shoes, and he was a man who if he could have got hold of a wig, or found out reliably what Parson Woodforde normally wore to take a service, he would have worn the same. He would have referred to anyone who wore,
"a cotta trimmed in deepest lace with a mozzetta and a Spanish biretta piped in cherry",
as a Papist, and meant it.
You need to get out more. I know at least one bishop and at least two priests who habitually sport buckled shoes.
Particularly in north London.
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(S)pike couchant
Shipmate
# 17199
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sacred London:
quote:
Originally posted by (S)pike couchant:
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
It is over 45 years since I last saw a clergyman wearing buckled shoes . . .
You need to get out more. I know at least one bishop and at least two priests who habitually sport buckled shoes.
(Big) buckled or monk shoes?
The former, in the cases of which I'm thinking. As, for example,
this picture of three impeccably dressed persons (I almost said 'gentlemen', but that would have been incorrect, of course, as neither a Bishop nor a Prince, however well behaved, can ever be a gentleman).
There does seem to be a fashion for monkstraps amongst some moderately high priests, however. I suppose it's a way of wearing buckles without drawing attention to them.
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'Still the towers of Trebizond, the fabled city, shimmer on the far horizon, gated and walled' but Bize her yer Trabzon.
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Wonderful - I've always hoped they'd remake The Little World of Don Camillo! Especially like the look of the bearded Peppone in the Russian fur hat. Do you know when it'll be on?
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
It is over 45 years since I last saw a clergyman wearing buckled shoes, and he was a man who if he could have got hold of a wig, or found out reliably what Parson Woodforde normally wore to take a service, he would have worn the same. He would have referred to anyone who wore,
"a cotta trimmed in deepest lace with a mozzetta and a Spanish biretta piped in cherry",
as a Papist, and meant it.
I still do! Well, actually I would say something like 'He dresses like a Papist!' And believe me that is not a compliment coming from me. I am not a rabid Low Churchman, but an old-fashioned High Churchman Protestant. The sort who will wear a chasuble to celerate Communion but would not be caught dead in anything lace.
PD
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PD:
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
It is over 45 years since I last saw a clergyman wearing buckled shoes, and he was a man who if he could have got hold of a wig, or found out reliably what Parson Woodforde normally wore to take a service, he would have worn the same. He would have referred to anyone who wore,
"a cotta trimmed in deepest lace with a mozzetta and a Spanish biretta piped in cherry",
as a Papist, and meant it.
I still do! Well, actually I would say something like 'He dresses like a Papist!' And believe me that is not a compliment coming from me. I am not a rabid Low Churchman, but an old-fashioned High Churchman Protestant. The sort who will wear a chasuble to celerate Communion but would not be caught dead in anything lace.
PD
Did anyone wear a chasuble, or even a coloured stole before the mid/late nineteenth century?
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Did anyone wear a chasuble, or even a coloured stole before the mid/late nineteenth century?
Catholics?
(Actually this long article about Danish vestments here (which I have not read all of) seems to imply that Lutheran ministers wore chasubles in the 16th & 17th century and that they gradually fell out of use in Germany but were continued in Denmark and Norway)
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by PD:
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
It is over 45 years since I last saw a clergyman wearing buckled shoes, and he was a man who if he could have got hold of a wig, or found out reliably what Parson Woodforde normally wore to take a service, he would have worn the same. He would have referred to anyone who wore,
"a cotta trimmed in deepest lace with a mozzetta and a Spanish biretta piped in cherry",
as a Papist, and meant it.
I still do! Well, actually I would say something like 'He dresses like a Papist!' And believe me that is not a compliment coming from me. I am not a rabid Low Churchman, but an old-fashioned High Churchman Protestant. The sort who will wear a chasuble to celerate Communion but would not be caught dead in anything lace.
PD
Did anyone wear a chasuble, or even a coloured stole before the mid/late nineteenth century?
Not in England. They seem to have appeared in a few C of E parishes about 1850 (stoles) and about 1854 (chasubles). However, there was always a case to say they were legal on the basis of the Ornament's Rubric. On the other hand, those opposed to the use of the chasuble could appeal to the 1604 Canons which remained in use until the mid-1960s.
Danish, Norwegian and Swedish Lutherans retained the chasuble, usually worn over an alb, or perhaps a straight sleeved surplice. Most north German Lutheran churches used the chasuble until the 18th century. The first major attack on the use of the chasuble was under Frederick the Great's father (a Calvinist) who ordered the Prussian Lutherans to get rid of the traditional vestments and use only the talar. Frederick reversed the order, but by then the damage was done.
PD
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(S)pike couchant
Shipmate
# 17199
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Posted
There seems to be evidence that some Non-Jurors at least considered wearing chasubles, although whether they actually ever did wear them is less probable.
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'Still the towers of Trebizond, the fabled city, shimmer on the far horizon, gated and walled' but Bize her yer Trabzon.
Posts: 308 | From: West of Eden, East of England | Registered: Jul 2012
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
Ooops, missed the edit.
Thus the chasuble in Lutheran Germany disappeared over the period of 75 years starting in 1731. Brandenburg and Prussia were the first to drop it. It survived late (1790s/1800s) in Hannover, Leipzig, Nuremburg, and Hamburg. IIRC, Hamburg was the last to drop the chasuble - in 1806!
PD
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Boat Boy
Shipmate
# 13050
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Posted
The first recorded use of a chasuble in the Church of England was when one, made from two Oxford MA hoods sewn together (somehow!), was worn by Thomas Chamberlain at St Thomas the Martyr, Oxford, on Whitsunday, 1854.
Posts: 151 | From: The deep south (of the Home Counties) | Registered: Oct 2007
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(S)pike couchant
Shipmate
# 17199
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boat Boy:
The first recorded use of a chasuble in the Church of England was when one, made from two Oxford MA hoods sewn together (somehow!), was worn by Thomas Chamberlain at St Thomas the Martyr, Oxford, on Whitsunday, 1854.
That must have been a sight to see!
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'Still the towers of Trebizond, the fabled city, shimmer on the far horizon, gated and walled' but Bize her yer Trabzon.
Posts: 308 | From: West of Eden, East of England | Registered: Jul 2012
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by (S)pike couchant:
There seems to be evidence that some Non-Jurors at least considered wearing chasubles, although whether they actually ever did wear them is less probable.
OTOH the Scottish Non-Jurors - a.k.a. the Scottish Episcopal Church - were faithful to the black gown right down to the 1820s/30s. The intruded English and Irish cleric in the Qualified Chapels wore the surplice. Apparently the use of the surplice spread into the SEC from the Qualified Chapels as the latter began to be absorbed from about 1793 onwards as the penal laws against the
SEC had been lifted.
I should perhaps have mentioned that the talar is the black preaching gown used in the Lutheran, Reformed and Union Churches in Germany. The various Landeskirchen each have their own shape, and there are some other weird little things. For example the Reformed, Union and Lutheran churches use different styles of Beffchen (preaching bands) - the Lutheran shape being the same as that sported by Anglicans. The two tabs are sewn together in the Reformed tradition, and sewn halfway - predctably - in the Union churches. However, you will occasional see the ruff in Scheswig-Holstein as it use to belong to Denmark.
PD
[ 17. July 2012, 20:24: Message edited by: PD ]
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Emendator Liturgia
Shipmate
# 17245
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Posted
The Dean of St Andrew's Cathedral, Sydney always wear a Geneva gown over a suit for services, whether they are eucharistic services (when the altar trolley is wheeled in), or at the other 'church gatherings' i.e. services. His brother the Archbishop is almost always impeccably attired in convocation robes - seeing the two of them together makes an interesting picture.
[ 30. July 2012, 22:43: Message edited by: emendator liturgia ]
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Don't judge all Anglicans in Sydney by prevailing Diocesan standards!
Posts: 401 | From: Sydney, Australia | Registered: Jul 2012
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mettabhavana
Apprentice
# 16217
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Posted
quote:
eucharistic services (when the altar trolley is wheeled in)
??? ![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif)
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And are we yet alive?
Posts: 39 | From: London, England | Registered: Feb 2011
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mettabhavana:
quote:
eucharistic services (when the altar trolley is wheeled in)
???
Does a hostess invite one to choose between bread, wafer or Black Forest Gateau?
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
I cannot quite understand why the Jensens cannot let the cathedral be the cathedral, and cut out the neo-Puritan crap. I really do not care if the services are all conducted in surplice and tippet and follow the order of the BCP (either Trad or Mod language) but the cathedral should set a standard of liturgical worship. The Gospel Hall stuff belongs in a Gospel Hall. J. C. Ryle looks like a raving Anglo-Papalist alongside these guys as he insisted upon a dignified Church service and loved the BCP as defending Reformed theology.
PD
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Emendator Liturgia
Shipmate
# 17245
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Posted
During the re-ordering of St Andrew's Cathedral about 10 years ago (which did restore the Cathedral's original layout), the altar [ooopps,I mean, Lord's Table - heavens forbid, there are no altars in the Anglican Church, or so I was told by a visiting Sydney church leader i.e. clergy] was removed, not repositioned, removed. Nowadays, under Dean Jensen, when there is a Holy Communion service, the Lord's Table is wheeled in (its on castors) from somewhere off stage, and then removed again later.
BTW, for what its worth, the Dean is a firm believer in the priesthood of all believers, so he has everyone join him in saying the Prayer of Consecration.
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