Ship of Fools: Big Occasions in the CofE versus the ECUSA

Thread: Big Occasions in the CofE versus the ECUSA Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by (S)pike couchant (# 17199) on :

Discussions on the 'black miter' thread about the American Episcopal penchant for the hated 'bendy poles' led to me to think once again about something that has often puzzled me, namely why the Church of England seems so much better at managing 'big events' than its American counterpart. Indeed, it's tempting to say that 'big events' are what the CofE does best, and apparently what the ECUSA is incapable of doing well.

Why is that, when one goes to a big CofE public service — whether in a Cathedral, Royal Peculiar, College Chapel, or Civic Church — one can reasonably expect a surpliced choir, well known-hymns, and choral music from the Anglican tradition, whilst the same sorts of services in America seem to call for tie-dye vestments, bendy poles, liturgical dancing, and achingly well-intentioned but nevertheless cringe-inducing musical selections drawn from diverse developing countries? I'm quite sure that the latter form of worship is not the house style of the overwhelming majority of American Episcopal parishes, but it seems de rigueur for certain big events.

Why should this be? It's quite clear why the CofE chooses to do big events the way it does: most of the country may be indifferent at best to Christianity, but a large section of them do know three or four hymns off by hear and enjoy the opportunity to sing them (these hymns, by the way are 'All people that on earth do dwell', 'Guide me, O thou great redeemer', 'The day thou gavest, Lord, is ended' and just possibly 'Praise my soul, the King of Heaven'). Also, it's what the Royal Family likes, so people see it on tv. What possible explanation is there, however, for the big public liturgies of the ECUSA?

ETA: This is not about 'High' vs 'Low'. In many ways, the ECUSA style for big public services is 'higher' both in inessentials, like the frequent use of incense, and in essentials, like the tendency to do most things within the context of the Eucharist. It's really more a question of taste — namely good vs. bad.

[fixed title typo]

[ 17. July 2012, 16:34: Message edited by: seasick ]

Posted by Boat Boy (# 13050) on :

I'm not getting involved...

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

Rowan's enthronement had 'cringe-inducing musical selections drawn from diverse developing countries' - we are (for as while longer, hopefully) part of a worldwide communion.

Posted by Caissa (# 16710) on :

Maybe ECUSA realizes that we live in the 21st century.

Posted by (S)pike couchant (# 17199) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Rowan's enthronement had 'cringe-inducing musical selections drawn from diverse developing countries' - we are (for as while longer, hopefully) part of a worldwide communion.

Yes, but it also a had a much higher proportion of selections from Western 'classical' music and Anglican hymnography. I thought the balance was much better, even to the point of doing things like using the Coverdale psalter (the BCP is still authorized, after all). I cannot imagine any big ECUSA event using the 1928 psalter or any other 'Rite I' material.

Posted by (S)pike couchant (# 17199) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Caissa:
Maybe ECUSA realizes that we live in the 21st century.

Not bloody likely! They seem stuck in the latter part of the 20th: specifically the late 1960s or the 1970s.

Posted by Caissa (# 16710) on :

That would still put them about a century ahead of the C of E.

Posted by Oxonian Ecclesiastic (# 12722) on :

Could it be to do with Establishment? The Church of England has to be the Church for everyone who lives in England; TEC has no such rôle for the United States. The Church of England is perhaps therefore bound to be less 'eclectic'.

Posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras (# 11274) on :

I really think it's a general cultural artifact that extends beyond the bounds of the CofE per se. Brits - certainly the English in any case - are far better at doing stateliness, pomp and circumstance, than are Americans. Cathedrals are absolutely the worst examples of TEC churchmanship overall, I think. You want stately cathedral style worship in TEC? Then go to St Thomas Fifth Avenue, not to the Cathedral of St John the Divine. Large, well-established, financially well-off TEC parish churches are likely to do things a lot better than the cathedrals on this side of the pond. There are no doubt some exceptions, especially in more liturgically conservative parts of the country, but in general I think our cathedrals get deans and other clergy with the very worst standards in Anglican music and liturgics.

Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on :

Even are your airy-lefty social responsibility Episcopal shacks, the worship will almost certainly be a staid, perfectly catholic rite II service with organ music. Really, TEC Big Occasions have no correlation whatsoever with parish life. It's like a completely different Church.

Posted by (S)pike couchant (# 17199) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
Even are your airy-lefty social responsibility Episcopal shacks, the worship will almost certainly be a staid, perfectly catholic rite II service with organ music. Really, TEC Big Occasions have no correlation whatsoever with parish life. It's like a completely different Church.

From my limited experience, this is accurate (or close enough). The real question is, why?

Posted by ken (# 2460) on :

Because we is British.

That is what we do.

We are the world champions of impressive and apparently milldy obsolete ceremonial and pageantry (even if most of it was invented between about 1840 and 1910)

We also have Bonfire, coronations, cricket (makes more sense considered as a ritual invocation of nature spirits than as a sport), genuine marching pipers in kilts (as opposed to fake ones who can only play "Amazing Grace"), investitures, military tatoos, more elaborate university graduations than you do (and the speeches are less likely to turn into tedious pap talks), morris dancing, traditional naval reviews (even without Turbinia), proper football fans with proper traditional chants and occasional genuine blood, real horse racing (American racing has those silly tantantaras, yeuchhhh, and the boring flat circular dirt tracks, and a general lack of royalty, real ale, drunken farmers, and corporate hospitality tents full of skimpily dressed PR women), Remembrance Day, shinier massed bands, state funerals, Orange Marches the size of a planet, the best ever flypasts (a Vulcan, a Lancaster, and two Spitfires flying in formation and Concorde flew overhead - beat that!), the Changing of the Guard, the Lord Mayor's Show, the State opening of Parliament, Trooping the Colour, Maggie Thatcher, Lord Nelson, Lord Beaverbrook, Sir Winston Churchill, Sir Anthony Eden, Clement Attlee, Henry Cooper, Lady Diana, and much much more!

Posted by Boat Boy (# 13050) on :

<wipes away a proud tear>

Posted by (S)pike couchant (# 17199) on :

quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Because we is British.

That is what we do.

We are the world champions of impressive and apparently milldy obsolete ceremonial and pageantry (even if most of it was invented between about 1840 and 1910)

We also have Bonfire, coronations, cricket (makes more sense considered as a ritual invocation of nature spirits than as a sport), genuine marching pipers in kilts (as opposed to fake ones who can only play "Amazing Grace"), investitures, military tatoos, more elaborate university graduations than you do (and the speeches are less likely to turn into tedious pap talks), morris dancing, traditional naval reviews (even without Turbinia), proper football fans with proper traditional chants and occasional genuine blood, real horse racing (American racing has those silly tantantaras, yeuchhhh, and the boring flat circular dirt tracks, and a general lack of royalty, real ale, drunken farmers, and corporate hospitality tents full of skimpily dressed PR women), Remembrance Day, shinier massed bands, state funerals, Orange Marches the size of a planet, the best ever flypasts (a Vulcan, a Lancaster, and two Spitfires flying in formation and Concorde flew overhead - beat that!), the Changing of the Guard, the Lord Mayor's Show, the State opening of Parliament, Trooping the Colour, Maggie Thatcher, Lord Nelson, Lord Beaverbrook, Sir Winston Churchill, Sir Anthony Eden, Clement Attlee, Henry Cooper, Lady Diana, and much much more!

That may or may not be the answer, but it's certainly a damn fine post.

[singing to himself] Bring me my bow of burning gold/ Bring my arrows of desire/ Bring me my spear — O clouds unfold!/.... [/singing to self]

Posted by Boat Boy (# 13050) on :

I was at Garter Day at Windsor this year and approximately 2/3 of the order of service was taken up with the order of the procession!

Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on :

Are we supposed to infer anything from the fact that the OP has refrained from using TEC's correct name?

Posted by (S)pike couchant (# 17199) on :

quote:
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
Are we supposed to infer anything from the fact that the OP has refrained from using TEC's correct name?

Well, as one of her most distinguished clerics has pointed out the American branch of the Anglican Church can hardly claim to be THE Episcopal Church. 'Episcopal Church of [or is it 'in'?] the United States of America' is at least accurate.

Posted by Boat Boy (# 13050) on :

quote:
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
Are we supposed to infer anything from the fact that the OP has refrained from using TEC's correct name?

Oh yes - when did that change take place? Also, isn't it a bit presumptuous of that church to call itself THE Episcopal Church when there are many others across the world?

Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on :

quote:
Originally posted by (S)pike couchant:

quote:
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
Are we supposed to infer anything from the fact that the OP has refrained from using TEC's correct name?
Well, as one of her most distinguished clerics has pointed out the American branch of the Anglican Church can hardly claim to be THE Episcopal Church. 'Episcopal Church of [or is it 'in'?] the United States of America' is at least accurate.

'Cept lots of our Church isn't in the United States. Our largest diocese in terms of membership is Haiti.

Posted by LostinChelsea (# 5305) on :

quote:
Ken observed:

Because we is British.

That is what we do.

The second half of the answer is that, in the TEC, “We ain’t British.”

The music referred to as “achingly well-intentioned but nevertheless cringe-inducing musical selections drawn from diverse developing countries” actually represents the breadth of worship in our church. I’ve seen regular Sunday worship in Chinese, French and Spanish – not in some exotic overseas locale, but here in the mainland Episcopal Church. TEC includes dioceses in places like Taiwan and Venezuela in addition to places in the USA with an amazing array of cultures: Alaska, Navajoland, Hawaii and more. Spanish-language ministry is growing quickly in our church. Including these influences in “big church” events is not a bow to trendiness, but rather a recognition of the breadth of our church and the society in which we serve.

As a side note, I’m always surprised when British friends raise their eyebrows (their version of showing shock and outrage) at American liturgical tendencies. It’s as if they are surprised that we don’t do it the same way stolid, Old School way they do at home … and as if they are somehow surprised that Americans might have a tendency to be splashy, loud, and cringe-inducing.

That’s who we are and what we do, so why wouldn’t you see it in our worship?

Posted by Boat Boy (# 13050) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:

quote:
Originally posted by (S)pike couchant:

quote:
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
Are we supposed to infer anything from the fact that the OP has refrained from using TEC's correct name?
Well, as one of her most distinguished clerics has pointed out the American branch of the Anglican Church can hardly claim to be THE Episcopal Church. 'Episcopal Church of [or is it 'in'?] the United States of America' is at least accurate.
'Cept lots of our Church isn't in the United States. Our largest diocese in terms of membership is Haiti.

But the Church of England also has its Diocese in Europe - it doesn't then refer to itself as 'The Anglican Church'.

Posted by Og, King of Bashan (# 9562) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
Even are your airy-lefty social responsibility Episcopal shacks, the worship will almost certainly be a staid, perfectly catholic rite II service with organ music. Really, TEC Big Occasions have no correlation whatsoever with parish life. It's like a completely different Church.

There was a somewhat similar thread a few months ago, posted in response to a video of a diocesan event at the National Cathedral, asking why "Cathedral Worship" didn't exist in the States. I think that Zach82 nicely sums up the general response: it does, it is just that all bets are off at diocesan events, where the planners typically try to throw in various innovations to show off the diversity of the diocese. The services are kind of like the view books schools send you when you are getting ready to apply for college; every picture shows people of all races and economic means hanging out and throwing a Frisbee around the quad. The reality when you get on campus is usually quite different.

Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :

OK, then, my experience is that my parish church does better ceremonial than the Los Angeles Diocese of the Domestic and Foreign Missionary Society of the Protestant Episcopal Church in the United States of America. I think it's because the diocese is always trying to be inclusive of every interest group, so each service is designed by a committee trying to please a whole bunch of other committees, so we get a horrible hodge-podge every time.

As for the Episcopal Church -- for fuck's sake, they're marketing the institution in the US. If you're offended, who the hell cares? You're not in the target audience.

Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Boat Boy:

quote:
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
Are we supposed to infer anything from the fact that the OP has refrained from using TEC's correct name?
Oh yes - when did that change take place? Also, isn't it a bit presumptuous of that church to call itself THE Episcopal Church when there are many others across the world?

There are plenty of people who would consider it presumptuous of the Catholic and Orthodox churches to lay claim to these terms, but we generally have the grace to respect their naming conventions.

Posted by seasick (# 48) on :

I don't think the question of whether TEC is properly called that or should be called something else is relevant to this thread nor do I think it would belong in Ecclesiantics were it to have its own thread. I would say that the spirit of respect for the various Christian churches and traditions represented here requires that as a matter of course we refer to groups as they themselves prefer. Given that, can we return to the discussion of worship on big occasions?

Much obliged.

seasick, Eccles host

Posted by (S)pike couchant (# 17199) on :

quote:
Originally posted by LostinChelsea:
It’s as if they are surprised that we don’t do it the same way stolid, Old School way they do at home … and as if they are somehow surprised that Americans might have a tendency to be splashy, loud, and cringe-inducing.

That’s who we are and what we do, so why wouldn’t you see it in our worship?

Because it's horrible? Just one suggestion....

Posted by Boat Boy (# 13050) on :

quote:
Originally posted by LostinChelsea:

quote:
Ken observed:

Because we is British.

That is what we do.

The second half of the answer is that, in the TEC, “We ain’t British.”

The music referred to as “achingly well-intentioned but nevertheless cringe-inducing musical selections drawn from diverse developing countries” actually represents the breadth of worship in our church. I’ve seen regular Sunday worship in Chinese, French and Spanish – not in some exotic overseas locale, but here in the mainland Episcopal Church. TEC includes dioceses in places like Taiwan and Venezuela in addition to places in the USA with an amazing array of cultures: Alaska, Navajoland, Hawaii and more. Spanish-language ministry is growing quickly in our church. Including these influences in “big church” events is not a bow to trendiness, but rather a recognition of the breadth of our church and the society in which we serve.

As a side note, I’m always surprised when British friends raise their eyebrows (their version of showing shock and outrage) at American liturgical tendencies. It’s as if they are surprised that we don’t do it the same way stolid, Old School way they do at home … and as if they are somehow surprised that Americans might have a tendency to be splashy, loud, and cringe-inducing.

That’s who we are and what we do, so why wouldn’t you see it in our worship?

Because it makes me think of anything but God.

Posted by Boat Boy (# 13050) on :

quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
As for the Episcopal Church -- for fuck's sake, they're marketing the institution in the US. If you're offended, who the hell cares? You're not in the target audience.

How liberal and inclusive...

Posted by Comper's Child (# 10580) on :

Much as I am always taken by the grandeur of "British" worship, these things are really matters of taste and culture. We Yanks have our own tastes and culture. It would seem the OP intends not to distinguish between these styles of worship but to suggest one is inferior to the other.

Oh, and crossed posted with Boat Boy - is the CofE the only church IN England?

[ 17. July 2012, 17:59: Message edited by: Comper's Child ]

Posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras (# 11274) on :

quote:
Originally posted by (S)pike couchant:

quote:
Originally posted by LostinChelsea:
It’s as if they are surprised that we don’t do it the same way stolid, Old School way they do at home … and as if they are somehow surprised that Americans might have a tendency to be splashy, loud, and cringe-inducing.

That’s who we are and what we do, so why wouldn’t you see it in our worship?
Because it's horrible? Just one suggestion....

I agree with that sentiment, but apparently at least some people in TEC like their splashy, loud and cringe-inducing worship. The fact is, as Zach has pointed out, the average TEC parish worship experience is nothing like what you get at big diocesan do-dahs taking place at the cathedral. Unfortunately, much TEC parish worship can be overly folksy and informal to the point of anarchy: a 10 minute time-out for the exchange of the sign of peace, with everyone crawling all over the pews and crossing the centre aisle. Who cares if our clergy all wear euchies when the overall level of dignity is just about zero. Of course, this is only true some places and in some dioceses. Unfortunately, I now live in one such diocese -- part of the reason I travel 40 minutes into Centre City Philadelphia to attend a parish church that does have dignity and reverence in the celebration of the holy mysteries.

Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Comper's Child:
Much as I am always taken by the grandeur of "British" worship, these things are really matters of taste and culture. We Yanks have our own tastes and culture. It would seem the OP intends not to distinguish between these styles of worship but to suggest one is inferior to the other.

So if someone wants to include something, we basically have to, even if it's stupid, or we're being exclusive snobs.

Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on :

As I think about it, that may be the explanation for this phenomenon. At the parish level one can say "This is not the sort of thing for this particular community." But at the diocesan level, one cannot make that argument, since it's supposed to represent the whole Church. It becomes impossible to say no to anything, lest we become exclusive. The result being, of course, a service that doesn't represent 95% of the people present.

Heck, this is the Episcopal Church. 99% [Disappointed]

Posted by Martin L (# 11804) on :

I don't believe the point about venue has yet been made. The reality is that most dioceses in the United States don't have cathedrals large enough to hold such a large group, and/or don't have large enough convention facilities attached to the cathedral to host the convention.

The General Convention and the majority of diocesan conventions, take place in rented facilities--usually large hotel/convention centers.

What does this mean?

1. A hastily-delivered electronic organ that is poorly voiced for the space, which is almost always carpeted, and whose walls have sound-dampening panels and sound-dampening accordion panels that have been opened to enlarge the space.

2. A last-minute choir of willing volunteers who have, at most, two hours of practice working together.

3. Volunteer musicians from the congregations of the diocese, on a taking-turns schedule so that most of the congregations with such groups have the privilege of helping at some diocesan liturgy over the years. Yes, this might mean a bit of ethnic diversity and non-European hymns. The horrors! [Martin fans self]

4. Any attempt at all to make the space seem less like an assembly hall (designed to seat 1000 in lovely (ehem) stackable, cushioned chairs) and more like a worship space. This may mean that enoromous pieces of fabric in various colors are employed to cover up the hideous walls, and dare I say it, waved above people's heads to distract them from the horrendous drop ceiling tiles. (I am adamantly NOT arguing in favor of them.)

Posted by (S)pike couchant (# 17199) on :

What Zach says makes a lot of sense. One of the main problems with the special brand of Episcopal Diocesan liturgy is that it seems completely lacking in any sense of occasion or space. I may have great admiration for – say — the Anglican Church of Melanesia, but what works in that milieu probably wouldn't work in the chapel of St John's College, Cambridge. Conversely, I wouldn't criticize a parish in, say, Nouméa because their liturgy does not feature a surpliced choir singing Stanford and Howells. If we are series about enculturation, we have to apply it universally, and not just as a trendy buzzword. That means recognizing that, in large parts of the Western world, the musical tradition includes Mozart and Haydn and hymns by J.M. Neale and the like, but does not include songs in Yoruba that will not be understanded of the vast majority of those present.

Despite that conciliatory note about context, there is still no excuse for the bendy poles in any context whatsoever. Well, maybe in a Mardi Gras parade, but not in the sacred liturgy.

[ 17. July 2012, 18:43: Message edited by: (S)pike couchant ]

Posted by Og, King of Bashan (# 9562) on :

Martin has another good point. The last time I attended the diocesan convention here, it was at a hotel near the airport, in a room no reasonably intelligent choirmaster would attempt to sing in. The music was provided by the same praise band that plays at youth retreats; not coincidentally, the guy behind much of the technical planning of the convention was the same guy who plans the youth retreats. It wasn't a great space for a great liturgy.

Posted by St.Silas the carter (# 12867) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Martin L:
I don't believe the point about venue has yet been made. The reality is that most dioceses in the United States don't have cathedrals large enough to hold such a large group, and/or don't have large enough convention facilities attached to the cathedral to host the convention.

The General Convention and the majority of diocesan conventions, take place in rented facilities--usually large hotel/convention centers.

What does this mean?

1. A hastily-delivered electronic organ that is poorly voiced for the space, which is almost always carpeted, and whose walls have sound-dampening panels and sound-dampening accordion panels that have been opened to enlarge the space.

2. A last-minute choir of willing volunteers who have, at most, two hours of practice working together.

3. Volunteer musicians from the congregations of the diocese, on a taking-turns schedule so that most of the congregations with such groups have the privilege of helping at some diocesan liturgy over the years. Yes, this might mean a bit of ethnic diversity and non-European hymns. The horrors! [Martin fans self]

4. Any attempt at all to make the space seem less like an assembly hall (designed to seat 1000 in lovely (ehem) stackable, cushioned chairs) and more like a worship space. This may mean that enoromous pieces of fabric in various colors are employed to cover up the hideous walls, and dare I say it, waved above people's heads to distract them from the horrendous drop ceiling tiles. (I am adamantly NOT arguing in favor of them.)

That's nice and all- But it does'nt explain This. As to taste-There is a such thing as Bad taste. I think we ought not get into the mindset that because all tastes are different, that therefore all tastes are good. And while I would never say that, for example, including the music of a particular ethnic community in the diocese is bad taste, I don't see any other term for Giant Liturgical Puppets of Doom® or vestments that come in all the liturgical colors at once.

Posted by (S)pike couchant (# 17199) on :

Yes, I was nearly feeling sorry for the poor American Episcopalians who have to worship in horrible conference centres, then I remembered that some of the worst offenders are St John the Divine and the National Cathedral, both glorious buildings that rival or most English Cathedrals in aesthetics, if obviously not in antiquity.

Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on :

From my Methodist days I can recall very decent conference services being put on in the theater of Purdue University.

Posted by NatDogg (# 14347) on :

Now, I often find myself in agreement with Zach, especially when it comes to the tragedies that we routinely call *diocesan* events. To be fair to the National Cathedral, they can put on presidential funeral service that can do us Americans proud. Of course, they don't have coffins laden with coronation regalia, or the Garter King of Arms proclaiming the deceased's styles and titles, or pillows placed on the altar with jewel-encrusted orders, BUT the Cathedral does okay or itself in this context.

Now, I will offer no defense of the diocesean events!

The secret seems to be the military. When they are involved, things get very nice and orderly VERY quickly!

Look at this video of President Ford's funeral at the National Cathedral: C-Span Video of Ford's Funeral

The order of service is here: Order of Service

Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :

quote:
Originally posted by (S)pike couchant:
Yes, I was nearly feeling sorry for the poor American Episcopalians who have to worship in horrible conference centres, then I remembered that some of the worst offenders are St John the Divine and the National Cathedral, both glorious buildings that rival or most English Cathedrals in aesthetics, if obviously not in antiquity.

So stay home then.

Posted by (S)pike couchant (# 17199) on :

quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:

quote:
Originally posted by (S)pike couchant:
Yes, I was nearly feeling sorry for the poor American Episcopalians who have to worship in horrible conference centres, then I remembered that some of the worst offenders are St John the Divine and the National Cathedral, both glorious buildings that rival or most English Cathedrals in aesthetics, if obviously not in antiquity.
So stay home then.

I'm not entirely sure what about my comment deserved that response.

There seems to be a curiously knee-jerk reaction by many American Episcopalians here, who are willing to admit that the 'Diocesan Liturgies' of their branch of the Universal Church are often really rather horrible but who take some umbrage at anyone else pointing out this fairly obvious fact.

Posted by Boat Boy (# 13050) on :

I've noticed that too. Without dragging it up again, my comments yesterday that attracted such vitriol were exceptionally mild compared to some others, but those others come from Americans and so are somehow acceptable to the other TECers.

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

I don't know about TEC cathedrals, but the sort of things praised in English cathedrals in(S)pike's first post, civic services and the like, are basically hymn sandwiches. Hymn and Anthem sandwiches maybe, but whether with great Gothic buildings, organ, robed choir and "I was glad" or in some back street shack with overhead projector, synthesiser and "Shine, Jesus, Shine" a hymn sandwich is still not catholic liturgy.

Frankly I'd prefer "Shine Jesus Shine" and the projector because they would probably be nicer and humbler people, and not just the Tory party at prayer.

Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :

These services suck, and we've explained why. Do you really need to make the point again that they suck? Why are you so interested in the origins of this high level of suckage?

Posted by Martin L (# 11804) on :

quote:
Originally posted by St.Silas the carter:
That's nice and all- But it does'nt explain This.

How much do you know about the rest of that liturgy? Compared to the Big Occasion hymn sandwiches of the Church of England, it was a Pontifical High Mass. As for liturgical vestments in various colors, one need only look as far back as the recent Jubilee liturgy at St. Paul's to see that the Church of England likewise has some confusion in this regard. The same is often true with papal masses, when clerics show up wearing the wrong thing, even though it is specifically publicized what to wear.

quote:
(S)pike Couchant:
There seems to be a curiously knee-jerk reaction by many American Episcopalians here, who are willing to admit that the 'Diocesan Liturgies' of their branch of the Universal Church are often really rather horrible but who take some umbrage at anyone else pointing out this fairly obvious fact.

Can you blame them? Many Eccles people do not find these liturgies to be their cup of tea, but the whole premise of this thread seemed to be a bit of an attack on TEC for not limiting itself to European expressions of worship.

Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Boat Boy:
I've noticed that too. Without dragging it up again, my comments yesterday that attracted such vitriol were exceptionally mild compared to some others, but those others come from Americans and so are somehow acceptable to the other TECers.

Will it make you get over the injustice done to you if I point out that you got in trouble from jumping from the statement "TEC's primate has bad tastes in vestments" to "TEC's bishops have bad tastes in vestments" on that other thread? [Roll Eyes]

[ 17. July 2012, 21:19: Message edited by: Zach82 ]

Posted by Boat Boy (# 13050) on :

Personally I'd say that your apparent example is far more tasteful than the TEC example from earlier:

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/06/05/article-2154783-13755028000005DC-486_964x569.jpg

Posted by (S)pike couchant (# 17199) on :

quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
I don't know about TEC cathedrals, but the sort of things praised in English cathedrals in(S)pike's first post, civic services and the like, are basically hymn sandwiches. Hymn and Anthem sandwiches maybe, but whether with great Gothic buildings, organ, robed choir and "I was glad" or in some back street shack with overhead projector, synthesiser and "Shine, Jesus, Shine" a hymn sandwich is still not catholic liturgy.

That's a legitimate criticism and one that I, at times, share. I do have a soft spot for the occasional 'service of the word' with really good music, though. I remember a rather scrumptious Jubilee service at the civic church in my little market town. If that makes me a bad person and a terrible Catholic, then so be it. Maybe such services could be redeemed by doing them in front of the MBS exposed (although that would of course require that everyone kneel or stand for the entire service and that all clerics be uncovered, something that in such places probably only applies to bishops.

quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
These services suck, and we've explained why. Do you really need to make the point again that they suck? Why are you so interested in the origins of this high level of suckage?

Because, believe it or not, I care about the American Church and would prefer that it have a future that doesn't suck. Also, because criticizing and mocking bad liturgy is fun.

ETA: Maybe the real problem is that the USA is a republic. It does seem that, when one gets rid of the monarch, good taste is the first thing to go. Even given that, however, America has suffered more than, say, France (not that the RC Church in France has uniformly high liturgical standards: far from it, although as a general rule, the liturgy improves and the music gets worse the further south one goes).

[ 17. July 2012, 21:25: Message edited by: (S)pike couchant ]

Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :

God, those awful coat dresses. Decades of them.

Posted by Boat Boy (# 13050) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:

quote:
Originally posted by Boat Boy:
I've noticed that too. Without dragging it up again, my comments yesterday that attracted such vitriol were exceptionally mild compared to some others, but those others come from Americans and so are somehow acceptable to the other TECers.
Will it make you get over the injustice done to you if I point out that you got in trouble from jumping from the statement "TEC's primate has bad tastes in vestments" to "TEC's bishops have bad tastes in vestments" on that other thread?

No, because your rudeness was of an entirely unwarranted extremity.

Besides, many others agreed...

Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on :

Then actually get over it or take it to hell.

[ 17. July 2012, 21:24: Message edited by: Zach82 ]

Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :

quote:
Originally posted by (S)pike couchant:
Because, believe it or not, I care about the American Church and would prefer that it have a future that doesn't suck.

No, I don't believe it in the least.

Big occasions are not at all indicative or emblematic of the church's future. The last installation of bishops I went to was held in a convention center and the procession of special interest groups that kicked the damned thing off took an hour, and that was only the beginning of the suck. But the two bishops suffragan have turned out to be pretty great, and the decent ceremony of the services and the good works continue at my local parish church completely unaffected by the fact that the diocese can't put on a big show to save its collective ass.

quote:
Also, because criticizing and mocking bad liturgy is fun.

You need to get out more.

Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :

And because I missed the addition in the edit ...

quote:
Originally posted by (S)pike couchant:
ETA: Maybe the real problem is that the USA is a republic. It does seem that, when one gets rid of the monarch, good taste is the first thing to go.

Again, coat dresses? Please.

quote:
Even given that, however, America has suffered more than, say, France (not that the RC Church in France has uniformly high liturgical standards: far from it, although as a general rule, the liturgy improves and the music gets worse the further south one goes).

I'm about 8,000 miles away, but I can still smell the bigotry.

[ 17. July 2012, 21:38: Message edited by: RuthW ]

Posted by Comper's Child (# 10580) on :

quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
And because I missed the addition in the edit ...

quote:
Originally posted by (S)pike couchant:
ETA: Maybe the real problem is that the USA is a republic. It does seem that, when one gets rid of the monarch, good taste is the first thing to go.
Again, coat dresses? Please.

quote:
Even given that, however, America has suffered more than, say, France (not that the RC Church in France has uniformly high liturgical standards: far from it, although as a general rule, the liturgy improves and the music gets worse the further south one goes).
I'm about 8,000 miles away, but I can still smell the bigotry.

Precisely.

Posted by (S)pike couchant (# 17199) on :

quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
And because I missed the addition in the edit ...

quote:
Originally posted by (S)pike couchant:
ETA: Maybe the real problem is that the USA is a republic. It does seem that, when one gets rid of the monarch, good taste is the first thing to go.
Again, coat dresses? Please.

HM's are much nice than Frau Merkel's! Even if the Chancellor does have them in all the colours of the rainbow.

quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
I'm about 8,000 miles away, but I can still smell the bigotry.

My dear, were you to come closer, I can assure that you'd smell nothing other than Trumper's rose shaving soap and, on grand occasions, a dash of frankincense based eau de toilette. Well, actually, yesterday I returned from high mass smelling of the day's incense (Omani frankincense sweetened with rose and a dash of lily of the valley, it being a Marian feast). If that's the smell of bigotry, I find it suits me.

[ 17. July 2012, 21:47: Message edited by: (S)pike couchant ]

Posted by Og, King of Bashan (# 9562) on :

quote:
Originally posted by (S)pike couchant:

quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:

quote:
Originally posted by (S)pike couchant:
Yes, I was nearly feeling sorry for the poor American Episcopalians who have to worship in horrible conference centres, then I remembered that some of the worst offenders are St John the Divine and the National Cathedral, both glorious buildings that rival or most English Cathedrals in aesthetics, if obviously not in antiquity.
So stay home then.
I'm not entirely sure what about my comment deserved that response.

There seems to be a curiously knee-jerk reaction by many American Episcopalians here, who are willing to admit that the 'Diocesan Liturgies' of their branch of the Universal Church are often really rather horrible but who take some umbrage at anyone else pointing out this fairly obvious fact.

Yes, when you are part of a group, you do allow other members of your group more leeway in criticizing the group than people who are outside of the group. Look, if I am elected to go to a diocesan convention, I'm the one who has to sit through the damn bendy polls, so I get to complain more vociferously than someone who doesn't have to sit through it unless he voluntarily downloads the clip from YouTube and watches it.

Posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras (# 11274) on :

Really, if you live in and love, TEC, your watchword must surely be, "This too will pass". But truly, if I didn't look at websites like this one, I'd hardly know what's going on outside the sensible places I go to (even sensible places that make summertime use of the Star Trek Canon, accompanied by completely sober ceremonial and music -- not S. Clement's Philly, BTW!). Most of TEC is liturgically good, boring, or annoying for its excessive folksiness, rather than shocking for liturgical puppetry and bendy poles.

Posted by Boat Boy (# 13050) on :

quote:
Originally posted by (S)pike couchant:

quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
And because I missed the addition in the edit ...

quote:
Originally posted by (S)pike couchant:
ETA: Maybe the real problem is that the USA is a republic. It does seem that, when one gets rid of the monarch, good taste is the first thing to go.
Again, coat dresses? Please.

HM's are much nice than Frau Merkel's! Even if the Chancellor does have them in all the colours of the rainbow.

quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
I'm about 8,000 miles away, but I can still smell the bigotry.
My dear, were you to come closer, I can assure that you'd smell nothing other than Trumper's rose shaving soap and, on grand occasions, a dash of frankincense based eau de toilette. Well, actually, yesterday I returned from high mass smelling of the day's incense (Omani frankincense sweetened with rose and a dash of lily of the valley, it being a Marian feast). If that's the smell of bigotry, I find it suits me.

Rose? Heathen...

Sandalwood all the way.

Posted by (S)pike couchant (# 17199) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Boat Boy:
Rose? Heathen...

Sandalwood all the way.

Ah, but I have sensitive skin. It matches my sensitive soul. Verily, I say, I am but a delicate hot house flower and liable to wilt and whither in the harsh winds of this bleak world. Particularly when it is made bleaker by liturgical modernists, of course. I wonder if they know how much pain and sorrow they cause me?

[ 17. July 2012, 22:18: Message edited by: (S)pike couchant ]

Posted by Boat Boy (# 13050) on :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uSkWkLd9CzI

Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Boat Boy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uSkWkLd9CzI

Now we'll all calm down ...

Posted by St.Silas the carter (# 12867) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Martin L:

quote:
Originally posted by St.Silas the carter:
That's nice and all- But it does'nt explain This.
How much do you know about the rest of that liturgy? Compared to the Big Occasion hymn sandwiches of the Church of England, it was a Pontifical High Mass. As for liturgical vestments in various colors, one need only look as far back as the recent Jubilee liturgy at St. Paul's to see that the Church of England likewise has some confusion in this regard. The same is often true with papal masses, when clerics show up wearing the wrong thing, even though it is specifically publicized what to wear.

Well, when I mean vestments in all the liturgical colors at the same time, I meant more like
This or This. [Biased]

Posted by (S)pike couchant (# 17199) on :

quote:
Originally posted by St.Silas the carter:

quote:
Originally posted by Martin L:

quote:
Originally posted by St.Silas the carter:
That's nice and all- But it does'nt explain This.
How much do you know about the rest of that liturgy? Compared to the Big Occasion hymn sandwiches of the Church of England, it was a Pontifical High Mass. As for liturgical vestments in various colors, one need only look as far back as the recent Jubilee liturgy at St. Paul's to see that the Church of England likewise has some confusion in this regard. The same is often true with papal masses, when clerics show up wearing the wrong thing, even though it is specifically publicized what to wear.
Well, when I mean vestments in all the liturgical colors at the same time, I meant more like
This or This.

Oh, my. I shan't comment. It would be, ungracious. But you'll forgive the natural impulse to [Projectile]

Fortunately, there are American Episcopal Bishops who know how to dress (or, rather, allow themselves to be dressed by people who know how to dress bishops). I find that watching that video makes one feel much better about the world.

Posted by seasick (# 48) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Boat Boy:
No, because your rudeness was of an entirely unwarranted extremity.

If you wish to engage in personal disputes with other posters, you may do so in Hell not in Ecclesiantics. You may not do so elsewhere. Let me advise you to reacquaint yourself with the 10 commandments of the ship and the guidelines of each board.

seasick, Ecclesiantics host

Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on :

The vast majority of TEC bishops wear perfectly ordinary vestments, but blogs aren't going to get all a-titter about that. Heck, even ++Schori has ordinary vestments.

Most of ++Schori's vestments are gifts from well meaning old ladies for pete's sake. Get over it. [Roll Eyes]

[ 17. July 2012, 22:50: Message edited by: Zach82 ]

Posted by Boat Boy (# 13050) on :

It's just a shame that the ordinary ones appear to be in the minority.

Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Boat Boy:
It's just a shame that the ordinary ones appear to be in the minority.

They aren't in the minority. There just aren't whole blogs dedicated to TEC bishops in ordinary vestments.

Posted by Boat Boy (# 13050) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
There just aren't whole blogs dedicated to TEC bishops in ordinary vestments.

And why might that be?

Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Boat Boy:

quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
There just aren't whole blogs dedicated to TEC bishops in ordinary vestments.
And why might that be?

So that people like you can't clang about on the internet about how our bishops have bad taste.

[ 17. July 2012, 23:08: Message edited by: Zach82 ]

Posted by Boat Boy (# 13050) on :

Yup, that's it. Nothing to do with an ACTUAL lack of taste at all. Nope, not at all.

Posted by Og, King of Bashan (# 9562) on :

I'm sensing full on pond war here.

Have fun, folks, I'm out.

Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on :

I would call you to hell, Boatman, but you are certainly not worth it.

Posted by seasick (# 48) on :

"Yeah but, no but, my bishop has a more tasteful gremial than your bishop" does not amount to reasoned discussion. Furthermore, it does not further discussion of the topic raised in the OP. I am now of the opinion - this being the third host post I have had to make on this thread in a relatively short space of time - that the chances of a productive discussion are slim to none. In those circumstances, this thread is closed.

seasick, Eccles host

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