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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Addressing clerical persons
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(S)pike couchant
Shipmate
# 17199
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Posted
On a previous thread:
quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
quote:
Originally posted by (S)pike couchant:
I am, to this day, perplexed as to how one correctly and politely addresses a female clerk in holy orders. I've actually searched the archives of this board in search of that information and the general consensus seems to be that there isn't a correct form of address for a cleric who is also a woman. 'Your Reverence', being gender-neutral, is perhaps the only real contender, but I suspect one really needs to be Irish to get away with it.
How about simply addressing her by her name? After all, that's how the majority of Anglicans address their male clergy.
I would be very surprised to discover that 'the majority of Anglicans address their ... clergy' by name alone. I can well believe that this is the case in England (although many of us would never dream of doing so!), but given that the majority of Anglicans live in societies that, as a general rule, place a higher importance on titles and honorifics than our own, I suspect most use some honorific for their clergypersons. I also believe that 'Fr' is nearly universal amongst North American Anglicans.
How do you address clerical persons of your acquaintance? I generally use 'Fr' for priests and 'M'Lord' for bishops. I rarely meet an Archbishop, but when I do it's obviously 'Your Grace'.
On a related note, I'm sure I'm not alone in kissing bishops' rings, but does anyone other than Italian widows kiss priests' hands? I think it's a good practice after the ordination/first mass, but perhaps a bit excessive in other contexts.
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'Still the towers of Trebizond, the fabled city, shimmer on the far horizon, gated and walled' but Bize her yer Trabzon.
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
I subtly discouraged people from calling me Father as soon as we had a woman priest on the staff who recoiled at the thought of being Mother. Then I moved to another parish with no women priests and became Father again.
There are some (maybe many) women priests who are happy to be addressed as Mother. It might seem a novelty but it has a long tradition in Religious orders. Better that than the message sent out when male priests are Father and the women simply Ms or Janet.
Informality seems to be the trend, but there is often a need for a marker of role. Father/Mother suggests a pastoral relationship within the Christian family; Reverend without the full name (Christian and surname) seems wrong to Anglican/English ears, and with it is impossibly over-formal in normal conversation; Sir/Madam is even worse since it implies social superiority rather than a distinction of role.
'Father' only ever caught on in a minority of C of E parishes anyway. So I suppose the answer is most likely to be 'just Christian name'. 'Vicar' as a form of address makes me cringe!
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South Coast Kevin
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# 16130
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Posted
I don't often interact with titled people but when I do, my approach is to start formal (i.e. Reverend whatever, Lady so-and-so) but then as soon as they address me by my first name I'll do the same with them. I don't do deference; respect, yes, but not deference.
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
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(S)pike couchant
Shipmate
# 17199
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Posted
I call a female cleric of my acquaintance by her Christian name because that is her preference. I address envelopes to her as 'The Rev'd Christianname Surname'. I call, and always have called, all male priests 'Father' and refer in formal written contexts as 'the Rev'd Fr Christianname Surname'. I'm not entirely happy with this situation, as it could be read as a slight against the female priest, but I don't really know what else to do. What I absolutely will not do is to adopt a new style for male priests. Not in a million years. That may seem stubborn and petulant, but any other style would seem false to me.
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'Still the towers of Trebizond, the fabled city, shimmer on the far horizon, gated and walled' but Bize her yer Trabzon.
Posts: 308 | From: West of Eden, East of England | Registered: Jul 2012
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Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
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Posted
Society has become more casual and informal. Does anyone nowadays call anyone "Mr or Mrs so-and-so" other than in school?
For me, I tend to call priests "Father or Mother" more if they were performing a liturgical role.
Outside the liturgy, I'm fine with calling them by their Christian name.
As well, it is always a good idea to check with the priest if he or she feels comfortable with it. Outside AC circles, it is rare for people to say "Father" or "Mother" when referring to clergy.
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It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by (S)pike couchant:
On a related note, I'm sure I'm not alone in kissing bishops' rings,
Every bishop's ring? I'm pretty sure only your own ordinary is supposed to get that treatment.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
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Vaticanchic
Shipmate
# 13869
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Posted
Rev in speech is correct in the US, but not in the UK, when it should only be used in writing. Prior to the AC revival, all clergy would be addressed with secular styles anyway.
In the streets abroad, my hands have been kissed by Mediterraneans of both/all genders.
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"Sink, Burn or Take Her a Prize"
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(S)pike couchant
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# 17199
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
I don't often interact with titled people but when I do, my approach is to start formal (i.e. Reverend whatever, Lady so-and-so) but then as soon as they address me by my first name I'll do the same with them. I don't do deference; respect, yes, but not deference.
I usually refer to me (relatively few) titled friends by their titles in the third person (i.e. as 'Sir Christianname' or 'Lord Title'), but by their Christian name in the second person. In the third person, I usually refer to priests as 'Fr Christianname Surname' or else simply 'Fr Surname', except for my own parish priest, who gets 'Fr Christianname'.
Academic titles seem to have died out more or less entirely in British English (as opposed to German, where they are still observed with an attention to detail that strikes English-speakers as vaguely ridiculous — 'Herr Prof. Dr. Dr.' and similar styles are not uncommon). British Academics these days seem to be 'Dr' or 'Prof' only in the third person, and then usually only in writing.
I have to say that this whole 'just call me "Bruce"' (or whatever) culture is not wholly to my taste.
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'Still the towers of Trebizond, the fabled city, shimmer on the far horizon, gated and walled' but Bize her yer Trabzon.
Posts: 308 | From: West of Eden, East of England | Registered: Jul 2012
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LostinChelsea
Shipmate
# 5305
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Posted
quote:
Vacitanchic declared:
Rev in speech is correct in the US
Common, yes. Correct ... not really.
In some Protestant denominations, calling someone "reverend" in place of their name has become standard practice ("Welcome to breakfast, Reverend. More bacon?")
In Anglican circles, you'll get a cringe almost every time from the clergyperson thus addressed. They'll probably grin and bear it, but cringe nonetheless.
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Best when taken in moderation.
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LostinChelsea:
quote:
Vacitanchic declared:
Rev in speech is correct in the US
Common, yes. Correct ... not really.
In some Protestant denominations, calling someone "reverend" in place of their name has become standard practice ("Welcome to breakfast, Reverend. More bacon?")
In Anglican circles, you'll get a cringe almost every time from the clergyperson thus addressed. They'll probably grin and bear it, but cringe nonetheless.
Precisely.
I tend to refer to clergy in denominations that don't have priests as "Pastor X" unless otherwise requested, and always avoid the "Reverend X" solecism.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
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Sighthound
Shipmate
# 15185
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Posted
I once (in an official capacity) had to ring up a CoE clergyman I didn't know. I understood correct form was 'Mr Bloggs' but he clearly wasn't happy with that, so I changed to 'Reverend Bloggs' which made his tone much more pleasant. He wasn't a 'Father' by the way, so that wasn't the error.
The problem is correct form can give offence, so can informality, so can the 'wrong' form of address. At best one can be thought ignorant, at worst, downright rude.
Frankly I prefer not to phone clergypersons I don't know, unless, like an RC priest or a Jewish rabbi, they have a clear and obvious form of address, which I will respect.
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sebby
Shipmate
# 15147
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Posted
I heard of an AC priest who received a phone call from someone who asked to speak rather pointedly to 'Mr Titcombe'. The priest replied 'I'm sorry, my dad isn't at home. This is Father Titcombe.'
The caller, clearly of a more protestant bent, said in a voice rising in tone: 'I call no man 'Father!'
Father Titcombe replied: 'Oh really? I'm sorry I didn't realise I was speaking to the Immaculate Conception.'
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sebhyatt
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Ceremoniar
Shipmate
# 13596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sebby:
I heard of an AC priest who received a phone call from someone who asked to speak rather pointedly to 'Mr Titcombe'. The priest replied 'I'm sorry, my dad isn't at home. This is Father Titcombe.'
The caller, clearly of a more protestant bent, said in a voice rising in tone: 'I call no man 'Father!'
Father Titcombe replied: 'Oh really? I'm sorry I didn't realise I was speaking to the Immaculate Conception.'
The Immaculate Conception is Our Lady. I apparently don't get it.
Posts: 1240 | From: U.S. | Registered: Apr 2008
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sebby
Shipmate
# 15147
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
'Father' only ever caught on in a minority of C of E parishes anyway. So I suppose the answer is most likely to be 'just Christian name'. 'Vicar' as a form of address makes me cringe!
As cringey as it may be, I suspect it is the form of address that most people in England might be comfortable with. We are thinking of the majority - who don't go to church.
I heard the bishop tell our village that it would be quite in order for them to address our house-for-duty priest as 'vicar' even though he isn't, technically. Similarly some students at Cranmer Hall last year spoke about 'becoming vicars'.
About 20 years ago I also heard the then Bishop of St Albans tell a village that it was in order to call their house-for-duty priest 'vicar'.
It is easy for us 'in the know' to cringe, but to show this would make someone unacquainted with ecclesiastical style and preferences uncomfortable. Now tongue in cheek - to make someone uncomfortable socially would not be the mark of a true gentleman!
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sebhyatt
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sebby
Shipmate
# 15147
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ceremoniar:
quote:
Originally posted by sebby:
I heard of an AC priest who received a phone call from someone who asked to speak rather pointedly to 'Mr Titcombe'. The priest replied 'I'm sorry, my dad isn't at home. This is Father Titcombe.'
The caller, clearly of a more protestant bent, said in a voice rising in tone: 'I call no man 'Father!'
Father Titcombe replied: 'Oh really? I'm sorry I didn't realise I was speaking to the Immaculate Conception.'
The Immaculate Conception is Our Lady. I apparently don't get it.
The same priest was accosted at the door by a woman who strongly objected to being called 'Joyce' when the notices were read. Even though she was one of the most forward in calling him 'Peter' very loudly in front of everyone, she said
'How`dare you call me 'Joyce' in front of the congregation? I am Mrs Hammett'.
'And I am Father Titcombe'
'Bah', she said, 'I'm old enough to be your grandmother.
'Madam, when I wear this stole, I am two thousand years old,'
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sebhyatt
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sighthound:
I once (in an official capacity) had to ring up a CoE clergyman I didn't know. I understood correct form was 'Mr Bloggs' but he clearly wasn't happy with that, so I changed to 'Reverend Bloggs' which made his tone much more pleasant. He wasn't a 'Father' by the way, so that wasn't the error.
The problem is correct form can give offence, so can informality, so can the 'wrong' form of address. At best one can be thought ignorant, at worst, downright rude.
Frankly I prefer not to phone clergypersons I don't know, unless, like an RC priest or a Jewish rabbi, they have a clear and obvious form of address, which I will respect.
Any minister should be ashamed of being fussy about titles when phoned up as s/he doesn't know what distressed person it might be on the other end.
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kingsfold
Shipmate
# 1726
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Posted
Here at my Scottish Episcopal Church, we refer to our clergy as John, Fred, Jane etc. Definitely not as Fr (still less Mother) unless you're teasing them or extracting the michael. And mostly I've heard the Bishop referred to as just "Bishop" other than by those who know him well enough to call him by his first name.
And I refer to the priest at the decidedly more AC Piskie church up the road by his Christian name as well. Mind you, I have been known to call him Reverend Canon Bloggs when he's addressed me as Dr Smith, but that's again more in fun. I think a fair number of his parishioners call him Fr Firstname. But he was introduced to me by his first name so...
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
I tell people to call me 'Christian Name' (I have a long version and a short version of my name, and usually offer them the short version as that is what I have been called since birth; though some go for the longer).
In the CofI I am variously addressed as 'Reverend', 'Reverend Christian-name', 'Rector', and my name. Sometimes 'Reverend Surname' or 'Minister'. I personally don't care which it is. One lady in a nursing home calls me 'Sister' without fail, probably assuming I'm a nun of some sort.
When speaking to Anglican clergy it wouldn't occur to me to call them in the first instance 'Father'. I grew up in an Anglican tradition - and until ordination worshipped in Evo/MOTR traditions - where 'Father' applied to Roman Catholics. If I know someone is customarily addressed, or wants to be addressed, as Father, I'll happily do so, no problem. But 'Father' is definitely not my first thought for an Anglican male priest.
I usually call clergy colleagues by their first names. New/unknown clergy, I would try to find out how they like to be addressed. I either call my Bishop by his first name or 'Bishop First-name'. Again, I would try to find out his preference of address.
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sebby:
It is easy for us 'in the know' to cringe, but to show this would make someone unacquainted with ecclesiastical style and preferences uncomfortable. Now tongue in cheek - to make someone uncomfortable socially would not be the mark of a true gentleman!
Well I'm not sure how much of a 'gentleman' I am, but I only cringe inwardly. I hope I don't show it. Though I hardly ever get called vicar now that I've retired, and not much before: in this part of the world where Catholics are the default (f not established) church it's likely to be Father.
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Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sebby:
I heard of an AC priest who received a phone call from someone who asked to speak rather pointedly to 'Mr Titcombe'. The priest replied 'I'm sorry, my dad isn't at home. This is Father Titcombe.'
A former colleague of mine - let's call him Father Fred Bloggs - lives with an aged but formidable aunt who frequently answers the phone on his behalf. One day this conversation ensued:
'Is Fred Bloggs at home, please?'
'There's no Fred Bloggs lives here.'
[caller, bewildered] 'I'm sorry, I'm sure I had the right number.'
'There's a Father Fred Bloggs lives here. Who is that calling?'
'oh... please tell him the Bishop rang.'
'Well, if you're the Bishop you should know better. I'll tell Father Fred that you called.'
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Brian: You're all individuals!
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Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Polly Plummer
Shipmate
# 13354
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Posted
At my previous church some people called the vicar "Vicar", some called him Fred, some called him Mr. Smith, some Reverend Smith. Then he was made a canon and we could all call him Canon Fred!
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
If a priest corrected someone who called them Mr., Rev, Ms, or anything else, and said they wanted to be addressed as Father or Mother or anything else, it would be received as rude, and depending on the circumstance of it, extremely rude in Western Canada. Handshaking is usual with everyone, though younger people seem to be moving away from.
Most priests are called in the third person "the Reverend [name]" if being very formal. If a bishop or arch (only met 2 arches so a small sample), it is "Bishop [first name]" and usually first names after that. If introducing a priest, the usual would be "Firstname Lastname, priest at St. Whomever's".
In a slightly different situation, one of the siblings of Prince Charles came to visit a number of years ago, and there was a dinner. There was specific direction not to approach the royals, speak only if spoken to, not to try to shake their hands etc. Well, the crowd was disobedient. And the royals got it immediately and adapted. Handshakes, and amusement with questions like "how do you like being a princess?". Lots of credit to them. I enjoyed especially the comment "it's probably much like being a chief".
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Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sebby:
quote:
Originally posted by Ceremoniar:
quote:
Originally posted by sebby:
I heard of an AC priest who received a phone call from someone who asked to speak rather pointedly to 'Mr Titcombe'. The priest replied 'I'm sorry, my dad isn't at home. This is Father Titcombe.'
The caller, clearly of a more protestant bent, said in a voice rising in tone: 'I call no man 'Father!'
Father Titcombe replied: 'Oh really? I'm sorry I didn't realise I was speaking to the Immaculate Conception.'
The Immaculate Conception is Our Lady. I apparently don't get it.
The same priest was accosted at the door by a woman who strongly objected to being called 'Joyce' when the notices were read. Even though she was one of the most forward in calling him 'Peter' very loudly in front of everyone, she said
'How`dare you call me 'Joyce' in front of the congregation? I am Mrs Hammett'.
'And I am Father Titcombe'
'Bah', she said, 'I'm old enough to be your grandmother.
'Madam, when I wear this stole, I am two thousand years old,'
He sounds like an incredibly rude and arrogant man. I'm glad he's not my Parish Priest.
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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
Posts: 12860 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
I either call my Bishop by his first name or 'Bishop First-name'. Again, I would try to find out his preference of address.
Knowing the present encumbent, he has never objected to 'My Lord' ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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Flinging wide the gates...
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ThunderBunk
Stone cold idiot
# 15579
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
quote:
Originally posted by sebby:
quote:
Originally posted by Ceremoniar:
quote:
Originally posted by sebby:
I heard of an AC priest who received a phone call from someone who asked to speak rather pointedly to 'Mr Titcombe'. The priest replied 'I'm sorry, my dad isn't at home. This is Father Titcombe.'
The caller, clearly of a more protestant bent, said in a voice rising in tone: 'I call no man 'Father!'
Father Titcombe replied: 'Oh really? I'm sorry I didn't realise I was speaking to the Immaculate Conception.'
The Immaculate Conception is Our Lady. I apparently don't get it.
The same priest was accosted at the door by a woman who strongly objected to being called 'Joyce' when the notices were read. Even though she was one of the most forward in calling him 'Peter' very loudly in front of everyone, she said
'How`dare you call me 'Joyce' in front of the congregation? I am Mrs Hammett'.
'And I am Father Titcombe'
'Bah', she said, 'I'm old enough to be your grandmother.
'Madam, when I wear this stole, I am two thousand years old,'
He sounds like an incredibly rude and arrogant man. I'm glad he's not my Parish Priest.
Some people forget that a little humility enhances the dignity of their office rather than reducing it. Uriah Heapishness, of course, emphatically doesn't, but neither does this punctiliousness in its defence.
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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".
Foolish, potentially deranged witterings
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(S)pike couchant
Shipmate
# 17199
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Posted
I'm reminded of a rather wonderful Alan Bennett sketch on this subject:
'Well, vicar...'
'Don't call me "vicar"! Call me "Dick", that's the kind of vicar I am.'
'Well, Dickar...'
It does seem to me that priests who insist on first names must be trying to make some kind of point, and I'm pretty certain that most congregants who insist on addressing their parish priest that way are as well.
It's interesting that, for a period of time in the aftermath of the War, the closest thing to an 'unmarked' form of address for a priest was 'padre', which is of course simply 'Father' translated into Spanish (for reasons passing understanding, or at least my understanding).
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'Still the towers of Trebizond, the fabled city, shimmer on the far horizon, gated and walled' but Bize her yer Trabzon.
Posts: 308 | From: West of Eden, East of England | Registered: Jul 2012
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Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by (S)pike couchant:
It does seem to me that priests who insist on first names must be trying to make some kind of point, and I'm pretty certain that most congregants who insist on addressing their parish priest that way are as well.
Or it could be that that's all they've ever known as it's how they were brought up.
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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
Posts: 12860 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by (S)pike couchant:
It does seem to me that priests who insist on first names must be trying to make some kind of point, and I'm pretty certain that most congregants who insist on addressing their parish priest that way are as well.
What point do you think these priests and congregants are trying to make? As for me, I'd be making the point that we either use titles for everyone (so I'm 'Mr', my married female friend is 'Mrs', and so on) or for no-one.
I think singling out certain people for special modes of address is cutting across the priesthood of all believers concept, which is a concept I hold very dear.
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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(S)pike couchant
Shipmate
# 17199
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
quote:
Originally posted by (S)pike couchant:
It does seem to me that priests who insist on first names must be trying to make some kind of point, and I'm pretty certain that most congregants who insist on addressing their parish priest that way are as well.
Or it could be that that's all they've ever known as it's how they were brought up.
Is there perhaps an element of class prejudice at work here? I've heard it said that it's generally middle class patients who are more reluctant to call their GP 'Dr X'. When it comes to clerics, this reluctance could easily combine with the usual English snobbery about anything 'Catholic' and particularly 'Irish'. So, if the working class Irish people refer to the priest at Our Lady of Perpetual Succour as 'Fr Joseph' (even to his family, to whom he will be known as 'my son/brother/nephew Fr Joseph', the staunchly middle class congregation at St Ethelburga's feel that they really must make a point of calling their vicar 'Dick', for the same reason that their main service should be styled in polysyllabic Greek as 'Sung Eucharist' rather than in vulgar Latin as 'Parish Mass'. It all seems a bit precious — at best — to me, and I'm glad that I've always managed to be associated with Anglican parishes that aren't quite so tribal in their ways.
ETA: it is, perhaps, no coincidence that Anglican priests serving in deprived areas and amongst immigrant communities are, at least in my experience, invariably called 'Fr' (they also very often have 'SSC' after their names, which really puts them beyond the middle class pale of the New Labour at Prayer).
[ 26. July 2012, 21:19: Message edited by: (S)pike couchant ]
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'Still the towers of Trebizond, the fabled city, shimmer on the far horizon, gated and walled' but Bize her yer Trabzon.
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Boat Boy
Shipmate
# 13050
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by (S)pike couchant:
It's interesting that, for a period of time in the aftermath of the War, the closest thing to an 'unmarked' form of address for a priest was 'padre', which is of course simply 'Father' translated into Spanish (for reasons passing understanding, or at least my understanding).
Military tradition.
Posts: 151 | From: The deep south (of the Home Counties) | Registered: Oct 2007
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WearyPilgrim
Shipmate
# 14593
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Posted
"Reverend" is widely --- if not almost ubiquitously --- used as a noun in the U.S. ("I'd like to introduce Reverend So-and-so"; "How are you, Reverend?") As in the U.K., it makes a lot of clergy cringe (myself included), but it's so common there is little point in disabusing people of its misuse.
What is more egregious, and far more irritating, is the manner in which the honorific is misused by the media. I have seen in newspapers, and have heard from news reporters, such horrid gaffes as "The reverend of the Episcopal Church said . . .". I am never surprised by this sort of idiocy, however; it has become increasingly apparent in recent years that proper grammar is not taught in journalism classes.
There is a trend in the States toward more frequent use of the term "Pastor", which in the past was used mostly by Lutherans and fundamentalists. I don't care for it (personal prejudice on my part, as it was never used in the churches of my background), but I have to admit that it's better that "Reverend".
Posts: 383 | From: Sedgwick, Maine USA | Registered: Feb 2009
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Tina
Shipmate
# 63
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
quote:
Originally posted by (S)pike couchant:
It does seem to me that priests who insist on first names must be trying to make some kind of point, and I'm pretty certain that most congregants who insist on addressing their parish priest that way are as well.
Or it could be that that's all they've ever known as it's how they were brought up.
Well, quite. I grew up attending an open evangelical Local Ecumenical Project where the incumbents were Anglican priests. I always called them by their Christian names, as I did the Vicar of the evo Anglican church I went to for a while as a student.
Since moving to London, I've been attending Anglo-Catholic churches. Most of the female priests I've known have preferred to be known by their Christian name, but a few have liked 'Mother Christianname'. The male ones all seem to like being called 'Father Christianname', so that's what I call them, although they don't worry if people just call them by their Christian names.
And how is it more 'tribal' to call services and priests by the catch-all terms used in official CofE liturgy and directories, rather than borrowing terms from one's preferred alternative denomination? ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
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Kindness is mandatory. Anger is necessary. Despair is a terrible idea. Despair is how they win. They won't win forever.
Posts: 503 | From: South London | Registered: May 2001
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John Holding
Coffee and Cognac
# 158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by (S)pike couchant:
I also believe that 'Fr' is nearly universal amongst North American Anglicans.
How do you address clerical persons of your acquaintance? I generally use 'Fr' for priests and 'M'Lord' for bishops. I rarely meet an Archbishop, but when I do it's obviously 'Your Grace'.
Fr Firstname is certainly known in North America, but it would be stretching a point to the point of losing elasticity to say the practice is nearly universal. I'd think it pretty common at the 1-2 per cent of Anglican/Episcopalian parishes that are high to Anglo-Catholic, not uncommon in a band of perhaps another 10-15 per cent, and unknown otherwise.
As for "Mylording" and "Your Gracing" bishops and archbishops, that was once the habit more widely than in England, but has largely disappeared elsewhere.
"My Lord" strictly derives from a bishop's standing as a member of the House of Lords, where he (and soon she) ranks behind such earls as may be left, and "your grace" derives from York and Canterbury's standing just ahead of such dukes as may be left in the Lords. In England, if you were being logical, you might well address Canterbury and York in that fashion -- but not the Primus of Scotland, or Armagh, or the Archbishop of the CHurch in Wales. And certainly not any archbishop from elsewhere in the communion. And addressing any bishop who does not sit in the Lords as "My Lord" would seem to me to be more than slightly obscurantish...especially if you're talking to a suffragan. Unless you're talking to Baron Carey or Baron Harries.
John
Posts: 5929 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: May 2001
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Zacchaeus
Shipmate
# 14454
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by (S)pike couchant:
I call a female cleric of my acquaintance by her Christian name because that is her preference. I address envelopes to her as 'The Rev'd Christianname Surname'. I call, and always have called, all male priests 'Father' and refer in formal written contexts as 'the Rev'd Fr Christianname Surname'. I'm not entirely happy with this situation, as it could be read as a slight against the female priest, but I don't really know what else to do. What I absolutely will not do is to adopt a new style for male priests. Not in a million years. That may seem stubborn and petulant, but any other style would seem false to me.
Well coming from the evangelical wing of the church I know several male clergy who dislike being 'fathered.' I also know female clergy who would rather be 'fathered' than 'mothered' and are so addressed.
But mainly the clergy around get called vicar/rector or the dreaded Reverend. In my group the clergy get 'Reverend' they dislike it but have given in to local custom, as the older generation refuse to call the clergy by their first name alone.Interestingly the younger adult shave no problme with just using firstname.
Te most common way of strangers addressing them on the phone is to say 'are you the vicar?'
Posts: 1905 | From: the back of beyond | Registered: Jan 2009
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sebby
Shipmate
# 15147
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Posted
It might be argued that the 'my Lord' and 'Your Grace' have more to do with ecclesistical rank that being a Lord Spiritual in the Upper House. Hence RC bishops are often addressed as 'My Lord' or 'Your Excellency' in the US. This clearly does not mean membership of the Upper House.
There is also a custom that abbots are also 'My Lord' - although they ceased to be members of the Upper House after the dissolution of the monasteries.
++Michael Ramsey used to answer to 'Father' after his retirement from Canterbury, and probably when in office. It seems perfectly natural to use it to a CofE bishop - who is described both in the BCP and the revised ordinal as a 'Father-in-God'.
++Michael's preference seemed far more dignified, personal, and loyal to his calling than those who might prefer to be called 'Lord Carey' or 'Baron Whatever'
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sebhyatt
Posts: 1340 | From: yorks | Registered: Sep 2009
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uffda
Shipmate
# 14310
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by WearyPilgrim:
There is a trend in the States toward more frequent use of the term "Pastor", which in the past was used mostly by Lutherans and fundamentalists. I don't care for it (personal prejudice on my part, as it was never used in the churches of my background), but I have to admit that it's better that "Reverend".
Pastor is the way I have been addressed throughout my ministry. This has been common among Lutherans, particularly of German heritage. But it does work very well for either gender. Over here in the states, I do hear the word "Mother" used more and more frequently in Episcopal churches. I believe it has the force of logic behind it, in a church which increasingly calls its male clergy "Father."
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Invincibly ignorant and planning to stay that way!
Posts: 1031 | From: Buffalo, NY | Registered: Nov 2008
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Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by (S)pike couchant:
Is there perhaps an element of class prejudice at work here?
No
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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
Posts: 12860 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by John Holding:
quote:
Originally posted by (S)pike couchant:
I also believe that 'Fr' is nearly universal amongst North American Anglicans.
How do you address clerical persons of your acquaintance? I generally use 'Fr' for priests and 'M'Lord' for bishops. I rarely meet an Archbishop, but when I do it's obviously 'Your Grace'.
Fr Firstname is certainly known in North America, but it would be stretching a point to the point of losing elasticity to say the practice is nearly universal. I'd think it pretty common at the 1-2 per cent of Anglican/Episcopalian parishes that are high to Anglo-Catholic, not uncommon in a band of perhaps another 10-15 per cent, and unknown otherwise.
As for "Mylording" and "Your Gracing" bishops and archbishops, that was once the habit more widely than in England, but has largely disappeared elsewhere.
"My Lord" strictly derives from a bishop's standing as a member of the House of Lords, where he (and soon she) ranks behind such earls as may be left, and "your grace" derives from York and Canterbury's standing just ahead of such dukes as may be left in the Lords. In England, if you were being logical, you might well address Canterbury and York in that fashion -- but not the Primus of Scotland, or Armagh, or the Archbishop of the CHurch in Wales. And certainly not any archbishop from elsewhere in the communion. And addressing any bishop who does not sit in the Lords as "My Lord" would seem to me to be more than slightly obscurantish...especially if you're talking to a suffragan. Unless you're talking to Baron Carey or Baron Harries.
John
John Holding may have taste in beer, but he is wrong on several counts.
In Canada, "My Lord" stems originally from the dioceses established by Letters Patent (Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, Québec, Montréal and Toronto) which authorized the consecration of the Lord Bishops of X. Bishops of dioceses erected by provincial or general synods got "My Lord" by custom but my memory of provincial acts establishing dioceses as entities is uncertain. It is now never used officially (ref The Canadian Style, mentioned briefly in a nearby thread), and almost never unofficially save by those few remaining who somehow see this as a manifestation of monarchy or who wish to annoy the bishop (among which group I usually find myself). Dublin and Armagh get "Your Grace"d, both in synods and from the state -- I was standing with the unwashed when President Childers welcomed Dr Buchanan with "Your Grace."
Anyone trying to "Your Grace" the Canadian Primate will just get a "Call Me Fred" in response, but do not let that hold you back.
Male priests as Father is more an urban phenomenon, to my knowledge, even in non-spiky circles but I think not found much in smaller centres or rural areas.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
Bit of a tangent, but how do those of you who use the term 'Father' deal with Matthew 23:9 where Jesus says 'don't address anyone here on earth as 'Father' '? I'm sure everyone's well aware of this verse (it's hardly in an obscure corner of the Bible) and yet millions of Christians happily refer to their church leaders as 'Father'. What gives?
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by WearyPilgrim:
"Reverend" is widely --- if not almost ubiquitously --- used as a noun in the U.S. ("I'd like to introduce Reverend So-and-so"; "How are you, Reverend?") As in the U.K., it makes a lot of clergy cringe (myself included), but it's so common there is little point in disabusing people of its misuse.
What is more egregious, and far more irritating, is the manner in which the honorific is misused by the media. I have seen in newspapers, and have heard from news reporters, such horrid gaffes as "The reverend of the Episcopal Church said . . .". I am never surprised by this sort of idiocy, however; it has become increasingly apparent in recent years that proper grammar is not taught in journalism classes.
There is a trend in the States toward more frequent use of the term "Pastor", which in the past was used mostly by Lutherans and fundamentalists. I don't care for it (personal prejudice on my part, as it was never used in the churches of my background), but I have to admit that it's better that "Reverend".
The word "Pastor" has appeared in Canada in the same sorts of churches, much to my regret. I forthrightly hold to the historic use of "Minister". That's the Scots dialect of the UCCan for you.
Reverend Lastname has been in use in the UCCan since Methuselah was a lad.
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
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Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
Bit of a tangent, but how do those of you who use the term 'Father' deal with Matthew 23:9 where Jesus says 'don't address anyone here on earth as 'Father' '? I'm sure everyone's well aware of this verse (it's hardly in an obscure corner of the Bible) and yet millions of Christians happily refer to their church leaders as 'Father'. What gives?
Primarily because Jesus was speaking hyperbole in condemning self-aggrandizement. We also don't fuss about people calling their biological male-identified parents "Father", but strictly thinking, the same logic applies to biological fathers as well as to fathers in the spiritual sense.
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It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
Posts: 4332 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007
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otyetsfoma
Shipmate
# 12898
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Posted
Also, taken literally and strictly, this verse would forbid mister (master), And St Paul himself breaks this "law" at Acts 22:1. Moreover my ancstral scot non-conformist (Secession) minister wrote from Nova Scotia to his ecclesiastical supporters in Glasgow, he addressed them as "fathers and brethren".
Posts: 842 | From: Edgware UK | Registered: Aug 2007
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WearyPilgrim
Shipmate
# 14593
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
quote:
Originally posted by WearyPilgrim:
"Reverend" is widely --- if not almost ubiquitously --- used as a noun in the U.S. ("I'd like to introduce Reverend So-and-so"; "How are you, Reverend?") As in the U.K., it makes a lot of clergy cringe (myself included), but it's so common there is little point in disabusing people of its misuse.
What is more egregious, and far more irritating, is the manner in which the honorific is misused by the media. I have seen in newspapers, and have heard from news reporters, such horrid gaffes as "The reverend of the Episcopal Church said . . .". I am never surprised by this sort of idiocy, however; it has become increasingly apparent in recent years that proper grammar is not taught in journalism classes.
There is a trend in the States toward more frequent use of the term "Pastor", which in the past was used mostly by Lutherans and fundamentalists. I don't care for it (personal prejudice on my part, as it was never used in the churches of my background), but I have to admit that it's better that "Reverend".
The word "Pastor" has appeared in Canada in the same sorts of churches, much to my regret. I forthrightly hold to the historic use of "Minister". That's the Scots dialect of the UCCan for you.
Reverend Lastname has been in use in the UCCan since Methuselah was a lad.
"Minister" was, and largely still is, the term found in Congregational church bulletins and on Congregational signboards here in the States (at least in New England). But "Pastor" is becoming increasingly common, particularly as a form of direct address. We always called our minister "Mister" when I was a boy, which I still prefer, although many of my parishioners simply call me by my first name, to which I have no objection.
It shall always be "Minister" in the bulletin and on the sign --- and I shall continue to wear my Geneva gown and bands, thank you. None of this cassock-alb stuff for me!
Posts: 383 | From: Sedgwick, Maine USA | Registered: Feb 2009
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jugular
Voice of Treason
# 4174
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Posted
I have a common name, which can apply to a male or female. There are several people in the parish with the same name. As such, in written form I am always referred to as Father Jugular, e.g 'For more information, please see Father Jugular'.
The children of the parish universally address me as 'Father Jugular'.
However, my philosophy is that we are a baptismal community and we therefore address one another by our baptismal names. When I meet people I usually say something like: 'Hello. I'm jugular. Some people call me Father Jugular - mostly the children'.
There was a time when I resisted being addressed as 'Father'. During that time, when I was a School Chaplain, I was addressed as Reverend Lastname, which was inevitably shortened to Rev in conversation. I then moved to another school with a tradition of addressing clergy as 'Father', and I did not have a choice. So I became Father Jugular and I'm now fairly comfortable with it. I even have a Facebook fan page in that name.
Posts: 2599 | From: Australia | Registered: Feb 2003
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Papouli
Apprentice
# 17209
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Posted
Current North American Orthodox practice is: a) priest and deacon, Father n.; b) bishop, Your Grace; c) metropolitan and archbishop, Your Eminence.
Written style for priests and deacons is "Rev. Father (or Deacon) nn." Abbots, archimandrites and cathedral deans are all "Very Rev." Hierarchs are "Most Rev."
Rather than getting offended, I find it rather quaint when someone calls me Reverend: very mainline Protestant, very Victorian, very Hollywood!
Posts: 28 | From: New England | Registered: Jul 2012
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bib
Shipmate
# 13074
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Posted
I don't think I could call a female priest Mother (don't really know why) but I guess I could call her Sister. I find it quite offensive when young people call an elderly person by their Christian name without permission. My late mother at age 94 was approached by a young nurse more than 70 years her junior who used Mum's first name to ask very personal questions. My mother was horrified as she was from the old school where you used formalities with people to whom you hadn't been introduced. I think she viewed it as disrespect. I tell my staff to always enquire how the person likes to be addressed and not to presume anything.
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"My Lord, my Life, my Way, my End, accept the praise I bring"
Posts: 1307 | From: Australia | Registered: Oct 2007
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Edgeman
Shipmate
# 12867
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by bib:
an elderly person by their Christian name without permission.
Part of the local tradition here forbids younger people from calling adults by their first name unless told to. Even in the very, very close knit evangelical church of my childhood where everyon knew each other very well, the clergy were always pasto so-and-so, minister so-and-so, or deacon/deaconess so-and-so.
Sometimes you could address them by pastor/minister/deacon/deaconess, but there was never any addressing anyone by first names. And fellow congregants were brother/sister last name. I guess that's why addressing clergy as Fr. so-and so or just Fr. is natural to me. I don't even address my close friends who are priests by first names.
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http://sacristyxrat.tumblr.com/
Posts: 1420 | From: Philadelphia Penns. | Registered: Jul 2007
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Fradgan
Apprentice
# 16455
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Posted
St. Silas,
I would glory in the uniqueness of being addressed as "Pasto".
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"From the moment I picked your book up until I laid it down, I was convulsed with laughter. Someday I intend reading it." - Groucho Marx
Posts: 37 | From: San Gabriel | Registered: Jun 2011
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
Ask the one addressed their preference, listen, smile, and use their choice of address.
Even if he were to go by Bishop Precious Precious Sweet Sweet Daddy Madison. (RIP ![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif) )
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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