Thread: Everyday cassock wearing Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.


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Posted by sebby (# 15147) on :
 
Apologies if this has been discussed before, or should be in the 'postcard' section.

Do any ship mates have views on the more everyday use of the cassock? By this I mean around the house; to and from church; perhaps in the street; the pub; non liturgically, as it were.

(1) I have memories of the double breasted style cassock being worn quite casually by an evangelical cleric in my youth. He would get out of the car in one fastened round the waist by a brown leather belt. This seemed quite normal and unrelated to churchmanship. He would never have worn eucharistic vestments.

(2) Another MOTR cleric used to answer the door in it when I would go to the vicarage for confirmation classes. Members of the congregation used to remark that it was probably for warmth as the vicarage was so cold.

(3) In 'Higher' places (notably the Monmouth diocese in the late 1980s and 90s, it was reasonably common to see young AC priests wearing the single breasted cassock in the queue on Lloyd's bank (it was neaerly always Lloyd's for some reason but perhaps other banks as well) and going up and down the aisles in Asda pushing shopping trolleys.

(4) Would this be less common amongst woman clergy, or is it unrelated to gender?

(5) Is it just less common now?
 
Posted by sebby (# 15147) on :
 
Oh yes I remember The Rev (later Lord) Donald Soper the Methodist minister and social activist always wore a cassock.
 
Posted by (S)pike couchant (# 17199) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by sebby:


(3) In 'Higher' places (notably the Monmouth diocese in the late 1980s and 90s, it was reasonably common to see young AC priests wearing the single breasted cassock in the queue on Lloyd's bank (it was neaerly always Lloyd's for some reason but perhaps other banks as well) and going up and down the aisles in Asda pushing shopping trolleys.
Wonderful. Such sights are, alas, rare outside of Kentish Town these days.

quote:
Originally posted by sebby:


(4) Would this be less common amongst woman clergy, or is it unrelated to gender?
I know of one benefice where the female curate often wears a cassock and her male colleague seldom wears even a clerical suit. I know that some Aff-Cath female clerics are of the opinion that women should wear three rather than five pleats (for purely aesthetic reasons — and I must say that I've always found the whole 'one pleat for each of the Precious Wounds' thing to be, well, precious).

quote:
Originally posted by sebby:


(5) Is it just less common now?
It would seem to be. Most priests — even 'advanced' Anglo-Catholics— seem to reserve the cassock for the church steps and churchyard. More's the pity. Although I note that the main character on 'Rev' usually wears a cassock. So perhaps there's still some hope.
 
Posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop (# 10745) on :
 
I think of Fr. Graeme Rowlands of St. Silas' Kentish Town, whom I have never seen not becassocked, however hot it is in summer.
 
Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :
 
(1) Rarely seen now as evangelicals either don't robe at all or wear cassock-albs.
(2) Still possible if vicarage heating hasn't improved, though probably a couple of jumpers and a fleece would be more likely.
(3) There seems to be a resurgence in the number of (usually younger) clerics who enjoy the outward signs of their order. Not always hardline reactionaries: some of them are, at least politically, very left wing.
(4) Dunno. But evangelically-inclined women priests seem more willing to dress in the sort of garb normally associated with graduates of St Stephen's House.
(5) Much less common in general, but see (3) above.
 
Posted by sebby (# 15147) on :
 
and amongst other denominations such as Methodists? Methodists I have met in recent years seem 'Higher' than many Anglicans.
 
Posted by PD (# 12436) on :
 
I still occasionally wear cassock and gown going to and from church in the cooler months. I find that makes me a bit unusual over here, though U.S. Anglicans are less inclined to sneak around in mufti than their UK brethren, it tends to be clerical collar and suit rather than a cassock.

PD
 
Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :
 
I have only seen a cassock worn outside services three times in the past 20 years in Ottawa; once by a more traditionalist RC cleric in the days when Saint Brigid's (now an arts centre) was in their hands for a few years; and twice by Orthodox clerics, one waiting for the late number 3 bus, and another at a supermarket, balancing a cart full of shopping and two very young and boisterous children.

I know a few clerics who do not even own one, being fans of the cassock-alb may the intercessions of the Blessed Percy save them; but two of my spikier women clerical acquaintances have been seen wearing cassocks about their residences on Sundays. One causes her central-Pennsylvania neighbours frissons of curiosity as her cassocked self walks her dog before she goes off to say Mass or her offices very early in the morning. She tells me that they seem to think her very Goth, but that her youth group members seeing her when on their way to school are impressed by the cassock-wearing.
 
Posted by Papouli (# 17209) on :
 
Since I was first ordained as a deacon, I wear my cassock from getting up in the morning, to going to bed at night. We have a Greek saying that "a priest without a rasso (cassock) is like an orange without a peel."

Sadly, most of my Orthodox clergy brothers here in America dress in the Roman collar and suit. This was instituted in the 1930's to avoid the rampant persecution against the Greek Church from that time. The bishops thought we would fit in better of we dressed like Roman or Protestant clergy. This restriction from wearing our traditional priestly garb has been lifted for the most part now, although most priests ordained through the mid-1990'2 still wear a collar and suit.

Canon 27 of the Sixth (in Trullo) Ecumenical Council require all clergy to wear distinctive clothing of clerical rank both when at home and travelling, upon penalty of temporary excommunication.

Interestingly, most people I meet on the street think I'm a Catholic priest, even though the only Catholic I've ever seen a cassock in public is the local Cardinal (and his is brown, with a hood)!
 
Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :
 
Papouli reports:
quote:
Interestingly, most people I meet on the street think I'm a Catholic priest, even though the only Catholic I've ever seen a cassock in public is the local Cardinal (and his is brown, with a hood)!
Papouli is lucky-- my only cardinal-spotting in recent years (Turcotte, just retired Abp of Montréal, walking down Sherbrooke West with his then auxiliary, Msgr Dowd, Bishop of Treba) had him in a (very good) business suit with grey shirt. I tipped my Tilley, as one does walking past cardinals, and got a nod in acknowledgement.

I forgot to mention that I was once at a business meeting with the titular Abp of Acropolis, who wore a simple house cassock (no pipes or sash), and I got the impression that this was his daily at-home garb. So that makes a fourth non-service cassock sighting.

I often spot clergy I know about town wearing a jacket and tie and, now more frequently, a golf shirt (evangelical) or open-necked shirt with jacket. The only dedicated collar-wearers appear to be cathedral clergy, or priests on their way to hospital or chaplaincy duty.
 
Posted by Oxonian Ecclesiastic (# 12722) on :
 
I generally wear my cassock about the parish, and I am not an Anglo-Catholic. It is far from unusual in the Diocese of London, and strikes me as more sensible than continually changing my clothes. Moreover, a cassock is hardly ever inappropriate attire.
 
Posted by sebby (# 15147) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:

[QUOTE]

I often spot clergy I know about town wearing a jacket and tie and, now more frequently, a golf shirt (evangelical) or open-necked shirt with jacket. The only dedicated collar-wearers appear to be cathedral clergy, or priests on their way to hospital or chaplaincy duty.
I never quite see the point in clergy wearing COLLAR AND TIE trying to look like a bank manager. If you are going to be that formal then wear a clerical collar, or just go completely casual.
 
Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by sebby:
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:

[QUOTE]

I often spot clergy I know about town wearing a jacket and tie and, now more frequently, a golf shirt (evangelical) or open-necked shirt with jacket. The only dedicated collar-wearers appear to be cathedral clergy, or priests on their way to hospital or chaplaincy duty.
I never quite see the point in clergy wearing COLLAR AND TIE trying to look like a bank manager. If you are going to be that formal then wear a clerical collar, or just go completely casual.
The explanation I have had, although it was in the context of university professors rather than bank managers, was that their clientèle was only really at ease with other suited & tie-wearing folk. I would tend to side with sebby on this, but as I am among the un-anointed, I have no rabbit in this hunt.
 
Posted by seasick (# 48) on :
 
I very rarely wear a cassock on the street (and on one of the rare occasions I did, responses varied from "Bless me, Father" to wolf-whistling...) but I nearly always wear a clerical collar if on duty. I would never wear a tie on church business.
 
Posted by Michael Astley (# 5638) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Papouli:
Since I was first ordained as a deacon, I wear my cassock from getting up in the morning, to going to bed at night. We have a Greek saying that "a priest without a rasso (cassock) is like an orange without a peel."
While I am delighted to hear of your discipline, Father, I think that the comparison is unfortunate. On a pedantic note, most uses of oranges - juicing, eating, marmalade-making - call for the separation of the peel from the contents by some means. An orange with the peel intact would be quite useless, which I think is the opposite of the intended point about cassock-wearing clergy.

On a recent visit of ROCOR clergy to Russia, it was commented on that the ROCOR clergy wore their cassocks when out and about. There is no prohibition on clergy of the patriarchal church wearing their cassocks in public but in some parts of Russia, the legacy of the Soviet state is that there isn't a culture of it anymore.
 
Posted by Michael Astley (# 5638) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by seasick:
wolf-whistling...
I'm sorry. I promise not to do it if you start wearing your cassock again.
 
Posted by Papouli (# 17209) on :
 
Michael, you've got to dig a little deeper into the analogy: the essential character of the priest doesn't change, whether he's in a cassock, or a Roman suit and collar, or his pajamas...like the flesh of the orange. But, just as you wouldn't think an orange hanging on a tree without a peel, or at the market without a peel, looks right or normal, so can we think about a priest without his robe.
 
Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :
 
The local Roman Catholic parish in my town received a new priest last year; he wears his cassock daily. Though with the recent heat (30+ degrees C) he has moved to clericals. He's young and a Jesuit. He owns (and wears) a biretta.

The town's reaction is that we are pleased; everyone says there hasn't been such a visible Catholic presence around since the Grey Nuns left.
 
Posted by Ceremoniar (# 13596) on :
 
FSSP priests wear the cassock all of the time, everywhere. Only when I see them at youth sporting events do they not have on their cassocks.
 
Posted by Zacchaeus (# 14454) on :
 
The only time I have seen a cassock worn outside church in the UK, was on a visit to relatives in Brighton.
 
Posted by Amos (# 44) on :
 
Re. 3 vs 5 pleats: there was a period when Wippell's tried to persuade women being measured for cassocks that the model with 5 pleats would make their bottoms look big.

That era ended some time ago: either Wippells gave up the persuasion as a bad job, or the women went in a body to J&M, or for some other reason, there are a lot more five-pleated cassocks out there on clergy of both sexes.
 
Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:

(3) There seems to be a resurgence in the number of (usually younger) clerics who enjoy the outward signs of their order. Not always hardline reactionaries: some of them are, at least politically, very left wing.
If I'm ever ordained, this will be me. [Big Grin]

There seems to be a mild resurgence in my diocese.

But I suspect that may have something to do with the fact that we have had at least four imports from St Stephens in the last five years (smallish diocese too). [Eek!]
 
Posted by emendator liturgia (# 17245) on :
 
quote:
I never quite see the point in clergy wearing COLLAR AND TIE trying to look like a bank manager. If you are going to be that formal then wear a clerical collar, or just go completely casual.
Unfortunately, in the Anglican Diocese of Sydney it is extremely rare to find a clergyman (Sydney does ordain women as deacons but has not tatified the General Sydnod Canon on women priests), wearing any clerical vesture, either in or outside the church building. Sadly too, RC clergy are also too often in 'mufti'.

The managerial look goes with the managerial style of being that dominates the ethos of the diocese in many aspects. My experience in walking through shopping centres, plazas etc while dressed in clerical collar etc often results in being asked to bless a person, or pray for them, or hear their confession, etc. Isn't that part of what we are called to do and to witness to?

In a city where there are two archbishops, one has the choice of appearing like this this or like this this. I know which look I'd prefer, though in a number of other matters they are not dissimilar.

[ 05. August 2012, 10:27: Message edited by: emendator liturgia ]
 
Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by emendator liturgia:

My experience in walking through shopping centres, plazas etc while dressed in clerical collar etc often results in being asked to bless a person, or pray for them, or hear their confession, etc. Isn't that part of what we are called to do and to witness to?
[Overused]

Welcome to the Ship emendator liturgia. [Smile]

Come and say hullo to the Oz thread (Trans Tasman in All Saints ) if that's your cup of tea.
 
Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by emendator liturgia:
[qb](Sydney does ordain women as deacons but has not tatified the General Sydnod Canon on women priests)
what a wonderfully ecclesiantically-appropriate typo!
 
Posted by Mr. Rob (# 5823) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by sebby:
Apologies if this has been discussed before, or should be in the 'postcard' section.
In the USA, the cassock was never worn on the street by Roman Catholic clergy or by Episcopalians when the cassock came into use by them in the 19th cen, But for both, for indoor and outdoor divine service, yes.

Which brings us to climate. I'm sure the cassock was and is more appropriate to the much more temperate climate of the British Isles, than in the climatic extremes found in America. Summer heat and winter cold are, generally, much so much greater all across the USA, so as to make the cassock impractical other than as a liturgical garment.

Wearing a cassock on the street and generally throughout the day in the American summer is unthinkably foolish because of heat and humidity. In the winter there is often bitter cold. So most American clergy opt for the summer short sleeve clerical shirt, collar and light slacks or khakis. The alb goes on directly over that for Mass or other service. Even bishops do the same.

The USA winters provide more cassock type weather for the street, but must clergy will rather go for an outdoor jacket, parka or top coat over clericals.

Black shirts and dark suits or blazers are, however, more commonly worn by both male and female clergy in the USA, than the grays and pastels found in the UK.
*
 
Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
The explanation I have had, although it was in the context of university professors rather than bank managers, was that their clientèle was only really at ease with other suited & tie-wearing folk.
"University professors"? [Eek!] Why? I think academics are a lot less likely to wear a suit and tie than bank managers! Probably less than clergy.
 
Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
The explanation I have had, although it was in the context of university professors rather than bank managers, was that their clientèle was only really at ease with other suited & tie-wearing folk.
"University professors"? [Eek!] Why? I think academics are a lot less likely to wear a suit and tie than bank managers! Probably less than clergy.
In my experience, scholars and bankers are about the same, but this may be pond difference. In my former real life, I was a funder of academics and attended many many many conferences; I have no idea what they wore when dealing with students but with each other or outside agencies, suits or jackets & ties were a fairly widespread phenomenon, perhaps a bit more than in the bureaucracy. While this was in the humanities, I was on the fringes recently of a neurologists conference in Montréal and could tell you that their suits were not as well-cut as the historians, but over two-thirds of the males wore ties-- those who did not were likely doctoral students who were not presenting papers. There were no golf shirts or shorts, but jacket & tie & black jeans were not unknown. College or school ties tended to be worn by university administrators or scholars of UK/Irish provenance.

In boths arts and sciences, the sartorial standards exceed those of the clergy but, then again, so do their salaries.
 
Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by seasick:
wolf-whistling...
Make the most of it. You'd be old and ugly like the some of the rest of us one day.
 
Posted by Choirboi (# 9222) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Rob:

Which brings us to climate. I'm sure the cassock was and is more appropriate to the much more temperate climate of the British Isles, than in the climatic extremes found in America. Summer heat and winter cold are, generally, much so much greater all across the USA, so as to make the cassock impractical other than as a liturgical garment.

Wearing a cassock on the street and generally throughout the day in the American summer is unthinkably foolish because of heat and humidity.
Not if one is wearing nothing (or very little) underneath. It seems to me, a cassock would be perfect summer attire.
 
Posted by Oxonian Ecclesiastic (# 12722) on :
 
I am wearing my cassock this morning. It is 29°C outside and rising. I am enjoying the feeling of the air circulating around my legs. Cassocks are cool, in more senses than one!
 
Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
Mine isn't! I was desperate to get it off after the service!
 
Posted by The Scrumpmeister (# 5638) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Mine isn't! I was desperate to get it off after the service!
I have a black woollen one and a grey viscose one, the latter for the summer. Sadly, although both were made to the same measurements, the cooler one hasn't adapted as well as the other one to my increased size. However, I know that it has also shrunk, unless I have grown two inches in height since I first got it.

The long and short is that I'm stuck to the black one and I feel much the came as you when I get home.
 
Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 
Same here.
 
Posted by seasick (# 48) on :
 
I was tempted to go with my cassock-alb this morning instead of the separates but I didn't. It wasn't too bad actually but I think other parts of the country may have had warmer weather...
 
Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :
 
I think they must have. It's cool and drizzly here. This morning was warmer but I was very comfortable in cassock-alb, stole and chasuble.
 
Posted by Ondergard (# 9324) on :
 
Preface: I am a Methodist Superintendent Minister...

.... and I would wear a cassock for any service which wasn't a totally informal "Cafe" style of worship. I wear a casock alb for Easter Day, Christmas Day, and weddings.

I've only ever worn either "on the street" if on the way from a Funeral Service to a Committal or vice versa.

My father-in-law, who was ordained in 1942, would wear a cassock to walk to and from morning and evening services - but, he would also wear preaching gown, bands, and academic hood.

When the Rev A Raymond George, a noted Methodist liturgist, was asked by one of my student colleagues in out liturgy class at Wesley College Bristol (RIP) what he would wear for an ecumenical service in an Anglican church, he said "Cassock, bands, Preaching gown, stole, and academic hood."

When I asked why he would wear all that stuff, when it wasn't exactly his normal practice, he said, "Principally to annoy the Anglicans".
 
Posted by sebby (# 15147) on :
 
The late Reverend the Lord Donald Soper, possibly one of the most famous Methodist ministers of his day in the UK, would wear his cassock every day -in the street, on his soap box at Speakers' Corner, to and fro and in the House of Lords, on TV. Everywhere.
 
Posted by sebby (# 15147) on :
 
I am told that Gamarelli's the clerical tailor in Rome, makes exquisite cassocks. These are made to look good, and be worn all the time in the hot Italian sun, including stiffling Roman Augusts.

They are not cheap...


...but neither are Wippell's.
 
Posted by ecumaniac (# 376) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by seasick:
wolf-whistling...
Make the most of it. You'd be old and ugly like the some of the rest of us one day.
In the experience of most women I know, wolf-whistling is street harassment, not a compliment.
 
Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by ecumaniac:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by seasick:
wolf-whistling...
Make the most of it. You'd be old and ugly like the some of the rest of us one day.
In the experience of most women I know, wolf-whistling is street harassment, not a compliment.
Indeed, so. Having seen some of those who hand out whistling and catcalls, it is no compliment. A friend of mine drew my attention to this lot, of which she is the local coordinator (although she uses the French coordinatrice).
 
Posted by sebby (# 15147) on :
 
Apparently a good response is to rush up breathless and say 'will you marry me? I mean right now?'
 
Posted by Mamacita (# 3659) on :
 
OK, here endeth the tangent.

Mamacita, Eccles Host
 
Posted by ChrisHuriwai (# 17111) on :
 
As an Anglican cleric in New Zealand it is hard enough to find somewhere to buy a cassock let alone a cleric wearing one!

I am one of the few clergy in this province who own a cassock and tend to wear it on the street. Funnily enough, it seems that it is the younger clergy who are more cassock-ly inclined. Of the 9 or 10 clergy I have seen in cassocks in public, 6 would be under 30 and the remainder are bishops!
 


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