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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Is purple the new black?
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Emendator Liturgia
Shipmate
# 17245
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Posted
Pardon me for asking a question that has already been discussed - I did a search on the topic but nothing of relevance came up.
I noticed in different places a lot of discussion on whether a Requiem Mass was a mass for the soul of the faithful departed, and hence black/purple was the correct colour; or whther it was a Mass of Resurrection, and hence white should be used.
Now, most of the funerals I attend has either white or purple as the colour (not necessarily with the correct theological viewpoint as to the purpose of the service). The funerals I have taken have been in white if I knew th eperson, and purple if I didn't (yes, I am all too aware of the doctrinal hazards, let alone the inter-personal ones associated with that practice.
But nowhere over the past quarter of a century have I seen black vestments used, even in RC rituals it was white. Does black still exist? I saw a picture of ++Robert Runcie's requiem and all wehre in solmen black for that.
I'd appreciate the thoughts, insights, observations of my shipmates.
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Basilica
Shipmate
# 16965
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by emendator liturgia:
I noticed in different places a lot of discussion on whether a Requiem Mass was a mass for the soul of the faithful departed, and hence black/purple was the correct colour; or whther it was a Mass of Resurrection, and hence white should be used.
The term Requiem comes from the words of the introit to such a mass: requiem aeternam dona eis Domine (Give them eternal rest, O Lord). If a mass is termed a requiem, it is ipso facto a votive mass for the repose of the soul of the departed, and for the forgiveness of their sins. To me, black or purple seem the most appropriate colours for symbolising this.
If you wanted to have a votive mass of thanksgiving for the life of dear Aunt Gladys (which, quite frankly, is the case for most funerals these days), I think it would be reasonable to wear white. (Indeed, Wikipedia tells me that the Roman Catholic term is now "Mass of Christian Burial", which is along these lines.) I think this represents a general squeamishness about the concept of purgatory, and a trend towards de mortuis nil nisi bonum dicendum est (speak no ill of the dead).
For me these trends are timorous theologically and fundamentally dishonest. Black for me, please!
quote:
But nowhere over the past quarter of a century have I seen black vestments used, even in RC rituals it was white. Does black still exist? I saw a picture of ++Robert Runcie's requiem and all wehre in solmen black for that.
I don't know about RC practices, but in Anglo-Catholic circles black is not uncommon, both for funerals and for All Souls.
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Arch Anglo Catholic
Shipmate
# 15181
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Posted
I agree entirely with m'learned friend!
We have a black set of vestments (or rather black relieved with gold, which looks rather fine and not at all miserable) and we use the same for Masses of Requiem, on All Souls Day and Good Friday.
The exciting use of colour and the absence of the same is alive and well!
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
I think another factor is general discomfort about death. Mourning is out, "celebrating life" is in. Don't wear black, wear white and celebrate the resurrection.
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
I still use black for requiems (including All Souls) and Good Friday.
But then, I am an old--well, middle-aged--fogey.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
Whatever else the Good Friday liturgy is, it isn't our Lord's funeral. So there is no reason to wear black. Christ is reigning from the Tree, and all that: hence red, the colour of kingship as well as blood.
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by emendator liturgia:
But nowhere over the past quarter of a century have I seen black vestments used, even in RC rituals it was white. Does black still exist? I saw a picture of ++Robert Runcie's requiem and all wehre in solmen black for that.
The much-publicized requiem last year of Otto von Habsburg was done in black. Video clip here.
Or you could mix and match, as they did here.
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Ceremoniar
Shipmate
# 13596
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Posted
In the RCC, Masses for the Dead--be they funerals or otherwise--are, by definition, offered for the souls of the departed. This is true regardless of whether black, violet or white vestments are worn. All three colors are authorized in the missal, and have been since 1970, when white and violet were added as options.
Until recently black, like Latin, had all but faded from the scene. But in the last few years black has begun making appearances again here and there, in the Ordinary Form. Part of this is the influence of the Holy Father, of course, but also because a younger generation of priests is beginning to see the value of things that were discarded somewhat hastily before they were on the scene. I expect that this trend will continue and one will see more of the three colors alternately used.
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Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Whatever else the Good Friday liturgy is, it isn't our Lord's funeral. So there is no reason to wear black. Christ is reigning from the Tree, and all that: hence red, the colour of kingship as well as blood.
I disagree, the triumphant nature of the atonement is celebrated at the Feast of Holy Cross, not on Good Friday. Good Friday is the somber memorial of Our Lord's death and passion. As such, black IMHO is entirely appropriate.
For the same reason, I don't think "Lift High the Cross" is an appropriate Good Friday hymn.
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seasick
...over the edge
# 48
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Posted
I usually wear a black stole for funerals. In this area, you'll generally see quite a bit of black on the congregation at a funeral and it seems appropriate to me to be in step. I'd also agree on the importance of recognising grief and mourning. If the funeral is followed by a service of thanksgiving, then I would wear white for the thanksgiving service.
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We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
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Mr. Rob
Shipmate
# 5823
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by emendator liturgia:
I noticed in different places a lot of discussion on whether a Requiem Mass was a mass for the soul of the faithful departed, and hence black/purple was the correct colour; or whther it was a Mass of Resurrection, and hence white should be used.
Now, most of the funerals I attend has either white or purple as the colour (not necessarily with the correct theological viewpoint as to the purpose of the service). The funerals I have taken have been in white if I knew th eperson, and purple if I didn't (yes, I am all too aware of the doctrinal hazards, let alone the inter-personal ones associated with that practice.
But nowhere over the past quarter of a century have I seen black vestments used, even in RC rituals it was white. Does black still exist? I saw a picture of ++Robert Runcie's requiem and all wehre in solmen black for that.
The video I saw of the Runcie funeral at St. Alban's Cathedral seem to me to show violet vestments used. But that is my memory from all those years ago.
The Roman Catholic Mass of Christian Burial for the Ordinary Form in the USA, is celebrated in white vestments. In the UK, or at least in England, the color is usually violet, but I think it can be either violet or white.
The Episcopal Church Prayer Book, 1979, stipulates by rubric, page 507:
The liturgy for the dead is an Easter liturgy. It finds all its meaning in the resurrection. Because Jeus was raised from the dead, we, too, shall be raised.
The liturgy, therefore, is characterized by joy ...
As is traditional in the American prayer books, no vestment colors are noted or suggested in rubrics, though the several unofficial Episcopal Church calendars do. The long and short of it is that USA Episcopalians generally use white or some type of austere white vestments for the burial liturgy.
The odd traditionalist Roman Catholic using the Roman Extraordinary Form or the very rare old-fashioned Anglo-Catholic parish might well trot out the black vestments. Violet can be used instead. That was always the case.
As for the Lutheran and Orthodox, others will have to chime in here about those usages.
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
Standard Lutheran practice in America is to use the current liturgical color. This means most Lutheran funerals in August will be in green. I suppose there is a bit of Midwestern practicality to it: we usually have paraments on the altar, pulpit, and lectern that match the color, while these are few and far between in Catholic or even TEC places. This rubric saves the Altar Guild mavens some work.
Of course, on the occasion that a bride wants white or the bereaved family wants white, one can usually find some saintly octave justification for it.
Purple would probably only be seen at funerals during Lent, and few churches even have black sets. Of course, our doctrines about death vary considerably, so traditional requiem practices don't really apply. It actually caused a bit of a stir in the 1970s when the simple
Rest eternal grant him/her, O Lord,
and let perpetual light shine upon him/her
was added to the funeral liturgy.
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
We tend to use black if the Lord's Supper is celebrated, but 'of the season' would be more appropriate, but it is difficult to break the altar gild of my predecessors habits. When funerals are unencumbered by a Communion service it is a surplice and tippet job, so black predominates there too.
PD
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
Southwark Cathedral is sometimes derided as drippy liberal.
On All Souls Day, the sung requiem was with black vestments. Quite right.
I'd want black for my funeral requiem and my partner's - I'd quite like an open coffin as well.
However after my mum's death I arranged for my vicar back in London to have a requiem as his midweek mass. It was in Eastertide and the reading was the Johannine appearance to Mary Magdalen.
He asked me at the last moment what colour I wanted and I instinctively said "white". That wasn't because I thought I was celebrating my mum's confused life. Maybe it was because I didn't want face up to something (although I had been facing up to her death being with her for three months at the last). If anything I would have said it was because it was a Paschal mass and an expression of hope in the face of death.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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Divine Outlaw
Gin-soaked boy
# 2252
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Posted
I think black should be used at funerals and requiems, if only to counteract the 'death is nothing' nonsense of the wider culture.
But Angloid is right about Good Friday.
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Sir Pellinore
Quester Emeritus
# 12163
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Posted
In at least one Asian country black signifies sincerity and sobriety. Ties in with the penitential bit.
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Well...
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Papouli
Apprentice
# 17209
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Rob:
As for the...Orthodox, others will have to chime in here about those usages.
We use white or gold vestments for all Funerals, except during the 40 days of Great Lent and Holy Week, when we wear purple.
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sebby
Shipmate
# 15147
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Posted
Lady (Lindy) Runcie's funeral was in St Alban's Abbey and a requiem in black vestments.
I dislike the well-meaning custom in some places of celebrating funerals in white unless for a child of course when it is 'of the Angels'.
To do so denies the reality and pains of death, There can be no resurrection without the crucifixion. It smacks too much of that out of context Henry Scott Holland 'death is nothing at all' nonsense.
Although death has been conquered, it is still the old enemy. A sort of realised-eschatology. It has been conquered but we mortals must undergo it. Purple (or black) expresses this well I think.
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sebhyatt
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Papouli:
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Rob:
As for the...Orthodox, others will have to chime in here about those usages.
We use white or gold vestments for all Funerals, except during the 40 days of Great Lent and Holy Week, when we wear purple.
This, I think, is specifically Greek Orthodox practice. More widely, a variety of customs are to be found.
I know from experience that black is used in at least some parts of the Antiochian church for funerals, although I cannot speak for the liturgical year.
In the Russian Orthodox Church, and in some of the other Slavic churches, the general practice is to wear black for funerals, apart from the funerals of children and, in some places, any funerals during Pentecost.
Black is also worn for the weekday Liturgies of the Presanctified Gifts during Lent (the great fast) and for all services of Great and Holy Friday, from Matins on the Thursday night.
We also wear black for the first part of the Vesperal Paschal Liturgy on the afternoon of Holy Saturday. Just before the Gospel, the vestments and hangings are changed from black to white. This in particular, I think, makes the point well about the the deprivation of the celebration of joy at all times. Knowing darkness gives us appreciation of the light, and indeed of the Light. If using black is simply not part of a church's particular tradition, then that is one thing, but for a church that does have it as part of its tradition and yet prefer to shy away from it seems to be a pretending away of the sadness, darkness, and gloom that form a real part of life on this earth, and which should be acknowledged, along with their being conquered and redeemed in Christ.
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
My criticism of purple is that it is a penitential colour. But it's not our fault someone's dead. We don't need to be guilty.
Black means honest mourning. And it is quite possible to have magnificent black vestments.
Certainly black is right for All Souls, when we are not mourning a recent death or with a body present. We are practicing mourning as it were, so when it does happen, we are better prepared.
I usually feel quietly elated after the All Souls requiem, but not I'm sorry to say last year, when it was celebrated with red vestments.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Pellinore (ret'd):
In at least one Asian country black signifies sincerity and sobriety. Ties in with the penitential bit.
In (maybe parts of) India, white is the colour for mourning.
It seems that colours signify different things in different cultures. Which maybe why Percy Dearmer's colour sequence was (and, in some places, still is) preferred to the standard RC colours.
[ 10. August 2012, 17:37: Message edited by: leo ]
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Papouli
Apprentice
# 17209
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Astley:
This, I think, is specifically Greek Orthodox practice. More widely, a variety of customs are to be found.
Well, there are vastly more Greek Orthodox than Russian Orthodox, outside of Mother Russia! In the US, we have about 10X the number of OCA + ROCOR + MP combined.
I can assure you the typiko (rubrics) is quite clear that funerals held outside of the 40 days of the Great Fast, and the five days of Holy Week require bright vestments for Funerals. Now, whether some Slavic churches want to follow the Western Christian model, inspired by Peter Moghila and Peter the Great, that's fine. But, it is not by any means the prevalent practice outside of Russia and maybe Bulgaria, to wear black to all Funerals
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
Thank you for that, Father.
I'm aware of the deviation from the typikon on this (and some other) points, and of some of the cultural, liturgical, and stylistic changes that came about with the Peters. My point wasn't to make any statement about which practices have the greatest number of adherents worldwide or in certain parts of the world, but only to give a fuller answer to the question of what Orthodox practice is than just one tradition.
The Russian practice may not have as many adherents worldwide or at least outside of traditionally Orthodox lands as the Greek practice but it is surely not so insignificant that it doesn't warrant any mention at all in a question about Orthodox practice.
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
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Percy B
Shipmate
# 17238
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Posted
As I was reading through some of the interesting posts I came across this thread, and could not help smiling given the news that Cadburys are keeping an eye on who is using purple!
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Mary, a priest??
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sebby:
I dislike the well-meaning custom in some places of celebrating funerals in white unless for a child of course when it is 'of the Angels'.
To do so denies the reality and pains of death,
Only if those conducting the service allow it to, in which case they, not the color white, are to blame. Coming from a tradition where white is the color for funerals, I have attended many "white" funerals, and I can't remember a one where the reality and pain of death was the least bit denied or downplayed. There is a difference between ignoring the reality of death and proclaiming, when confronted with death, Christ's victory over it.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
If the decision were up to me, I'd choose black; but pastorally-- now that white is common-- shouldn't we go with the wishes of the family?
My sister wanted white for my father's funeral and I didn't make a fuss over it. In return she let me invite an old college friend to serve as organist, so we got much better music (or at least better played) than might have otherwise been the case. Funny thing was, when the time came I didn't mind the white at all. It seemed to fit the spirit of the gathering as thanksgiving for Dad's life and for the faith he had and passed on to us.
But I could just as well understand a family who said "we have come to mourn," and who would therefore find white a pastorally insensitive slap in the face.
At St. Thomas 5th Ave., there was no lack of thanksgiving, even momentary laughter, for the life of Gerre Hancock during his requiem in February. But the candles were unbleached, vestments black (exquisitely laced with gold), and the choir sang the Duruflé requiem with a soaring solemnity as though lifting up to heaven all the tears in the world.
[ 11. October 2012, 22:06: Message edited by: Alogon ]
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
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Edgeman
Shipmate
# 12867
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ceremoniar:
Until recently black, like Latin, had all but faded from the scene. But in the last few years black has begun making appearances again here and there, in the Ordinary Form. Part of this is the influence of the Holy Father, of course, but also because a younger generation of priests is beginning to see the value of things that were discarded somewhat hastily before they were on the scene. I expect that this trend will continue and one will see more of the three colors alternately used.
This is certainly true. So much so that the parish nearest to where I live recently purchased a set of black vestments after a few years of parishioners asking for funerals in black rather than white.
When we have the quarterly mass for the dead, black vestments are used. Funerals are whatever color the family wishes, but black is considered the parish norm. If they ask for it, white or purple will be used. At the graveside, a black cope and stole are always used.
I have asked for black at my funeral mass, mainly because I'll have two funerals, and one will have no lack of joy and thanksgiving.
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Zappa
Ship's Wake
# 8433
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Posted
I have a black set, but have worn them only twice in twenty years. Requiem Masses are very rare in the parishes I've been in. These days furnerals are very rare full stop. The celebrants do 80% (well, them and the Dean in this area) - I refuse to do funerals without God reference, so I have only done one in the last 15 months.
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Stephen
Shipmate
# 40
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Posted
This is indeed a confession, Leo!! ![[Two face]](graemlins/scot_twoface.gif)
If someone wears white at mine, I will knock on the box
Same goes for black
So there!
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Best Wishes
Stephen
'Be still,then, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the nations and I will be exalted in the earth' Ps46 v10
Posts: 3954 | From: Alto C Clef Country | Registered: May 2001
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seasick
...over the edge
# 48
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Posted
Weren't you telling us the other day how it was important not to get too hung up on "correct" liturgy?
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We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
Posts: 5769 | From: A world of my own | Registered: May 2001
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sebby
Shipmate
# 15147
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stephen:
This is indeed a confession, Leo!!
If someone wears white at mine, I will knock on the box
Same goes for black
So there!
Interestingly, the great Johannine scholar Professor Raymond Brown digressed during one of his lectures on the Fourth Gospel to say that the celebration of funeral masses in white is an imappropriate denial of the reality of death.
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sebhyatt
Posts: 1340 | From: yorks | Registered: Sep 2009
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
The regime here has decreed first preference is to be given to Black. There is no point in my swimming against the tide! For All Souls' and the quarterly requiems we use black, and we also usually use black for funerals, though very occasionally we will get a violet and even less frequently white. The most regular request seems to concern music - Easter hymns, please!
PD
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Posts: 4431 | From: Between a Rock and a Hard Place | Registered: Mar 2007
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
Lutherans tend to use the color of the season. However, our funeral palls are usually white because the pall is to symbolize the baptism of the believer. But you know us Lutherans, it is neither commanded nor forbidden.
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