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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: 350 Years of the 1662 Prayer Book
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Just a thought - how are Shipmates celebrating this auspicious occasion? The Prayer Book Society here in the UK is making much of it, but ISTM that interest in the 1662 BCP is...er....somewhat marginal, shall we say?
Our Place had a Deanery Evensong back in June - about 40 peeps attended, and, with a scratch choir of four male voices, it was a lovely service, appreciated by all. This coming Sunday, we are replacing our monthly Evensong with a 1662 BCP Holy Communion (said - but with 3 hymns by George Herbert). I confidently anticipate a congregation of 12 or so, though the Holy Spirit - given Her unpreditcability - may well decide otherwise.......
Do any other Shipmates (whether in the UK or elsewhere) have other tales to tell?
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Corvo
Shipmate
# 15220
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Posted
I went to the Prayer Book Society celebratory Evensong at St Paul's Cathedral on 2 May. The Prince and de iure Princess of Wales were also there. The Bishop of London preached (after the Office of course) and the A. of C. gave the blessing.
Posts: 672 | From: The Most Holy Trinity, Coach Lane, North Shields | Registered: Oct 2009
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
This coming Sunday, we are replacing our monthly Evensong with a 1662 BCP Holy Communion (said - but with 3 hymns by George Herbert).
Tat report please! Scarf and hood and North-end I presume.
Incidentally our diocese had a day conference on liturgy in February which concluded with a BCP Holy Communion celebrated by the suffragan bishop in black chimere and (anachronistically) purple stole. He stood at the north side (not end) of the Table which was placed lengthways between two facing ranks of seating.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
I suppose I should go on a hike to my nearest five mile chapel. O, you did not mean that part of 1662.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Er...... ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
Re tat - eastward-facing, I suspect, and I daresay Father will vest in alb and chasuble as usual (and as per the rubrics of 1549...). A simple said service - one server, no incense, and three hymns. Cake afterwards!
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
There's only one hymn in the BCP, or at least the Ordinal - Veni creator spiritus in Bishop Cosin's translation. Other than as a substitute for the anthem in quires and places where they sing, there's no place for hymns.
I wish BCP enthusiasts would follow the BCP to the letter - no hymns, no sermon at Morning Prayer, all those exhortations and so on - and then we would realise how inadequate it is and why we need something else.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
It is permissible, and indeed assumed that people will sing metrical psalms before and after the service. Remember though that in 1662, only the Old Version of Sternhold & Hopkins was used, and sung the old way, lined out, very slowly and unaccompanied, much like modern Gaelic psalmody except in English. Tate & Brady wouldn't be written until the end of the century, and the move to speed things up, and use bands really belongs to the next century.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Bran Stark
Shipmate
# 15252
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
I wish BCP enthusiasts would follow the BCP to the letter - no hymns, no sermon at Morning Prayer, all those exhortations and so on - and then we would realise how inadequate it is and why we need something else.
I would actually quite love to follow the BCP to the letter. The Exhortations are lovely. But it seems to me that we can still have hymns. Adding those doesn't mean we have to take anything away from 1662.
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IN SOVIET ЯUSSIA, SIGNATUЯE ЯEAD YOU!
Posts: 304 | Registered: Oct 2009
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Mockingbird
Mimus polyglottos navis
# 5818
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Posted
It was customary to sing metrical psalms before the sermon, though the rubrics do not mention this. This was when the minister was changing from surplice into Geneva gown. Holinshed's writings indicate that in some places in the 16th century there was a psalm after the sermon too, and this custom may have continued on into the 17th century. It was also customary in some places to sing a hymn during communion, though the rubrics do not mention it.
Wheatley's Rational Introduction has this note in its discussion of Morning and Evening Prayer canticles: quote:
It ought to be noted, that both the sixty-seventh and hundredth psalms, being inserted in the Common Prayer Books [after the 2nd lesson] in the ordinary version, ought so to be used, and not to be sung in Sternhold and Hopkins,, or any other metre, as is now the custom in too many churches...
So clearly in some places the congregation did indeed sing these canticles in metrical paraphrase, something for which the rubric makes no provision.
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Foržon we sealon efestan žas Easterlican žing to asmeagenne and to gehealdanne, žaet we magon cuman to žam Easterlican daege, že aa byš, mid fullum glaedscipe and wynsumnysse and ecere blisse.
Posts: 1443 | From: Between Broken Bow and Black Mesa | Registered: Apr 2004
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
I will certainly celebrate Communion according to the 1662 BCP on the 8/24 and also on 8/26. As to vestments, I will probably follow the custom of the time with one, and the rubrics with regard to the other. I am certain the leave the exhortation in, but whether I go with metrical psalms or hymns is yet to be decided.
PD
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Roadkill on the Information Super Highway!
My Assorted Rantings - http://www.theoldhighchurchman.blogspot.com
Posts: 4431 | From: Between a Rock and a Hard Place | Registered: Mar 2007
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Chap
Shipmate
# 4926
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Posted
I was introduced to Anglicanism via the 1662 and quite like it for public and private times of worship. No luck in finding a 1662 service in the states but I look for them when visiting the UK. I use it for my own prayers here and simply replace prayers for our elected officials when I arrive at prayers for the monarchy.
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Chap
Comfort the hurting; Feed the hungry; Clothe the naked.
Posts: 454 | From: Texas | Registered: Aug 2003
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Galilit
Shipmate
# 16470
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chap:
I use it for my own prayers here and simply replace prayers for our elected officials when I arrive at prayers for the monarchy.
Oh, me too!
But I just ignore the Queen and The Royal Family bits and jump to A Prayer for the Clergy and People; being a "brash colonial" originally and now really at a loss when it comes to praying for *this* government (and the 5 before it). There were 2 or 3 years there I liked the govt but was not in the habit of daily prayer at the time. Poor them .
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She who does Her Son's will in all things can rely on me to do Hers.
Posts: 624 | From: a Galilee far, far away | Registered: Jun 2011
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sebby
Shipmate
# 15147
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Posted
I think it should be commemorated most certainly. After all, a considerable fuss was made of the AV anniversary and it could be argued that the BCP did more for literacy and education in the UK than the AV anyway. Swathes of the population for centuries heard its cadences. And the BCP (Coverdales) psalms are much better.
But it was and is not a book encased in stone. It has ALWAYS been adapted and I doubt has rarely been used to the letter - ever. So chasable and hymns quite in order.
It is in daily use in our cathedrals at Evensong and other times. Shipmates might like to attend an extra choral evensong.
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sebhyatt
Posts: 1340 | From: yorks | Registered: Sep 2009
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
We still have Evensong almost every Sunday evening, so I guess it will be business as usual. (Sadly, the Psalms were changed to 'Common Worship' ones when our new vicar came; otherwise the service is the same as in the BCP.)
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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sebby
Shipmate
# 15147
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Posted
OMG how awful! The psalms are the very crown jewels of the BCP. He probably couldn't understand them, or hadn't done O level or GCSE English Lit.
If you want modern psalms there is TEC's BCP 1979 superb translation. The Americans seemingly can write better English than us these days.
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sebhyatt
Posts: 1340 | From: yorks | Registered: Sep 2009
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sebby:
If you want modern psalms there is TEC's BCP 1979 superb translation. The Americans seemingly can write better English than us these days.
I thought the CW ones were based on TEC 1979.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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sebby
Shipmate
# 15147
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Posted
To an extent - but they are different. And, to my mind, not quite as good.
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sebhyatt
Posts: 1340 | From: yorks | Registered: Sep 2009
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
I've just done a quick comparison of psalm 43 in the 1662, TEC and CW versions. The two modern ones are clearly aiming to preserve much of Coverdale's rhythm and phrasing, and if anything CW moves slightly closer back to 1662. But I think it is clear that CW is an edited version of TEC. Maybe to its detriment, but they are not radically different.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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sebby
Shipmate
# 15147
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Posted
Not radically different but slightly inferior. I am unsure of copyright, but it would have made sense for CW to have adopted TEC's psalter outright.
Is it Psalm 63 that begins 'For God alone by soul in silence waits' in the 1979 version? Beautiful. Often quoted (by me) as an example of modern liturgical translation at its best. Checked it in CW and - guess what? Edited and inferior. But this is a matter of taste.
For evensong the cadences of Coverdale are unsuppased. If you want Evening Prayer CW will do.
For private recitation anything in ONE BOOK as discussed in another thread elsewhere.
The welcome advent of Smartphones has made this possible as the CofE can't see to understand this. I once asked Brother Tristram SSF about thisand he just stood there with his mouth open unaware that it might be a good idea perhaps.
I note your choice of Psalm 43. Perhaps in your early days you said this at the foot of the altar before ascending?
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sebhyatt
Posts: 1340 | From: yorks | Registered: Sep 2009
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sebby
Shipmate
# 15147
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Posted
*For God alone my soul in silence waits.
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sebhyatt
Posts: 1340 | From: yorks | Registered: Sep 2009
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sebby:
Not radically different but slightly inferior. I am unsure of copyright, but it would have made sense for CW to have adopted TEC's psalter outright.
Is it Psalm 63 that begins 'For God alone by soul in silence waits' in the 1979 version? Beautiful. Often quoted (by me) as an example of modern liturgical translation at its best. Checked it in CW and - guess what? Edited and inferior. But this is a matter of taste.
Psalm 62. It is a matter of taste, but I tend to agree with you in this instance. Though I think some changes are an improvement and others not. I agree that it's difficult to see why they needed to alter it.
quote:
I note your choice of Psalm 43. Perhaps in your early days you said this at the foot of the altar before ascending?
Never as a priest, but I used to serve a rather deaf vicar who said alternate verses and began them before the server had finished his part because he couldn't hear it! The book more or less fell open at that page but I suppose I gravitated to the texts I knew best.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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sebby
Shipmate
# 15147
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by sebby:
I note your choice of Psalm 43. Perhaps in your early days you said this at the foot of the altar before ascending?
I used to serve a rather deaf vicar who said alternate verses and began them before the server had finished his part because he couldn't hear it! [/QB]
We had exactly the same experience then.
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sebhyatt
Posts: 1340 | From: yorks | Registered: Sep 2009
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
Same vicar maybe?!
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sebby:
The welcome advent of Smartphones has made this possible as the CofE can't see to understand this.
The Cof E app for iPhone (and others?) links to M, E and Night Prayer in either the 1662 or CW versions. Complete with prescribed readings. (Yes, I know that 1662 doesn't have Night Prayer but I think they provide the so-called traditional language version from CW)
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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sebby
Shipmate
# 15147
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Posted
Yes. Prior to the Smartphone the CofE had some kind of mental block about the convenience of the Office in one book.
Exceptions were the publication of the Cambridge Office Book (but an unwieldy size and shape to carry routinely on the Underground) and various unoffical publications including a shorter SSF office- again unoffical. There was the publication also of the Proposed Book together with the 1922 Book of Lessons.
I am pretty sure that the majority of those who say the daily office do so solitary. The CofE just didn't get it.
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sebhyatt
Posts: 1340 | From: yorks | Registered: Sep 2009
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sebby:
Exceptions were the publication of the Cambridge Office Book (but an unwieldy size and shape to carry routinely on the Underground) and...
Is that one also known as the Oxford & Cambridge Office Book, with the whole New English Bible with Apocrypha in it?
Posts: 3823 | Registered: May 2004
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(S)pike couchant
Shipmate
# 17199
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sebby:
I am pretty sure that the majority of those who say the daily office do so solitary. The CofE just didn't get it.
In my experience, the 1662 Offices work splendidly for public use but less so for private use. The opposite is true for the offices from the Breviary.
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'Still the towers of Trebizond, the fabled city, shimmer on the far horizon, gated and walled' but Bize her yer Trabzon.
Posts: 308 | From: West of Eden, East of England | Registered: Jul 2012
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Just dropping by to say that the Lord's Supper was duly celebrated this afternoon - a swelteringly hot day - with 15 persons present (none of whom had signified their names to the Curate beforehand.....).
Eastward facing, Father in alb, stole and light summer chasuble (he wished he'd just worn alb and stole), one server-cum-thurifer, and myself as Epistoler and chalice-bearer. Four hymns (all by George Herbert) and the Gloria to Merbecke. Lots of nice refreshing tea and cake to follow!
Once again, the Prayer Book Society was conspicuous by its absence...... ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Once again, the Prayer Book Society was conspicuous by its absence......
Ian J.
Like those people who used to stage protests at the closure of local branch lines but never use the train themselves. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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sebby
Shipmate
# 15147
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by (S)pike couchant:
quote:
Originally posted by sebby:
I am pretty sure that the majority of those who say the daily office do so solitary. The CofE just didn't get it.
In my experience, the 1662 Offices work splendidly for public use but less so for private use. The opposite is true for the offices from the Breviary.
Agreed.
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sebhyatt
Posts: 1340 | From: yorks | Registered: Sep 2009
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Vaticanchic
Shipmate
# 13869
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Posted
That comment above about the Franciscan liturgist is hilarious! But yes, I often use the Breviary downloaded for the day to my smartphone. You can also get the mass reading and, indeed, homilies on the same app.
Nobody in their right mind can possibly use 1662 as is twice a day, given the alternatives about.
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"Sink, Burn or Take Her a Prize"
Posts: 697 | From: UK | Registered: Jul 2008
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
The current diet in Thurible towers is CW MP (on smartphone) and BCP Evensong (from "O Lord, open thou our lips") with CW lectionary (at home). Were I to find an app that had BCP with CW lectionary, I'd be using that twice daily. (If it were to include the English Hymnal office hymns too, that'd be lovely.)
Thurible
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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
Posts: 8049 | Registered: Aug 2002
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Vaticanchic:
That comment above about the Franciscan liturgist is hilarious!
What was that? Can't find it above.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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