Ship of Fools: What to look for in an alb

Thread: What to look for in an alb Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by PentEcclesiastic (# 12098) on :

Greetings shipmates.

In a couple of weeks, I will begin interning at a local episcopal church while here in seminary. The rector told me that I'd be needing an alb. What are things I need to look for? I'm not an average proportioned male, so would it make sense to have one customer as opposed to using a stock alb? Fabrics? Colors? Any help would be useful as I don't want to offend anyone.

I very excited, because I'll be a Pentecostal moonlighting as an Anglican for about 9 months. Wish me luck!

[ 23. August 2012, 19:56: Message edited by: PentEcclesiastic ]

Posted by (S)pike couchant (# 17199) on :

quote:
Originally posted by PentEcclesiastic:
Fabrics?

Cotton or linen. Lace optional (and not allowed during Lent or for Requiems).

quote:
Originally posted by PentEcclesiastic:

Colors?

White. 'Albus' means white and, as you put on this garment, it is normal to say the following prayer: 'Purify me, Lord, and cleanse my heart so that, washed in the Blood of the Lamb, I may enjoy eternal bliss.' The allusion, of course, is to Revelation, where those washed in the Blood of Lamb are clad in robes of WHITE.

You may also wish to consider apparels.

Posted by Barefoot Friar (# 13100) on :

I love, love, love my alb from Gaspard. It is one of the ample cut albs, as I am ample cut, and it has the traditional rolled collar. Mine has no lace, is white, and is a pull-over type.

I had a cassock-alb from CM Almy prior to that (it was a gift, so I didn't complain too much) that was ok, but not great.

If you're not in the US, then I'm sure someone will be along to point you straight.

Posted by PentEcclesiastic (# 12098) on :

quote:
Originally posted by (S)pike couchant:
You may also wish to consider apparels.

What do you mean by "apparels?"

Posted by (S)pike couchant (# 17199) on :

quote:
Originally posted by PentEcclesiastic:

quote:
Originally posted by (S)pike couchant:
You may also wish to consider apparels.
What do you mean by "apparels?"

Easier to illustrate than to explain. Everyone in this photo is wearing apparels on both their amices and their albs.

Which brings us to another point: real albs have to be worn over a cassock and with an amice. Do not be tempted by the so-called 'cassock alb'. That way madness lies, and things worse than madness. (Angloid, who has a great fondness for cassock albs will be here shortly to extol their virtues: don't listen).

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

A priest?

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

quote:
Originally posted by (S)pike couchant:
(Angloid, who has a great fondness for cassock albs will be here shortly to extol their virtues: don't listen).

Fame!
Cassock-albs and their merits/demerits should be a Dead Horse.

Posted by (S)pike couchant (# 17199) on :

I really think that plain white albs are too plain to be seemly. One must decide between aparels and lace, which is in part a choice between 'English' and 'Continental' religion. There is a school of thought, for which I have some sympathy, that suggests aparels and gothic vestments in Gothic (and Gothic Revival) buildings and lace and fiddlebacks in Baroque (and Baroque Revival) buildings. Just don't try the whole 'trendy minimalism' thing that is fashionable amongst the aging hippie priests.

Posted by Edgeman (# 12867) on :

I've only worn an alb on three occasions, in all three they were one of the traditional albs made by the Holy Rood Guild. Very comfortable, and they gather and fall over a cassock beautifully.

(Aside, I'm very partial to apparels, but despite being a very English Gothic church, my parish would never go for it.)

[ 23. August 2012, 21:06: Message edited by: Edgeman ]

Posted by seasick (# 48) on :

Let's rein in the sniping, shall we? (S)pike Couchant - I'm looking at you. It would be a work of charity if this thread could result in advice which would be of use to PentEcclesiastic.

seasick, Eccles host

[ 23. August 2012, 21:06: Message edited by: seasick ]

Posted by (S)pike couchant (# 17199) on :

Here are two promising sources. Unfortunately, good albs don't come cheap. I'd buy a used one, if I were you.

Posted by Edgeman (# 12867) on :

Here is the alb I would recommend.

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

I assume that the MI in your address is Missouri, and I know that summers there are hot and sticky. Avoid synthetics and synthetic blends like the plague. They increase the heat and stickiness greatly. They may be easy enough to wash and may not need ironing, but cotton, linen, or best of all lightweight wool are best. In winter, you can always out more on underneath but make sure that it does not show. I would also avoid lace, or anything else which may draw attention to you. You are there as a server, and servers should be invisible.

Posted by Fr Weber (# 13472) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
I assume that the MI in your address is Missouri, and I know that summers there are hot and sticky. Avoid synthetics and synthetic blends like the plague. They increase the heat and stickiness greatly. They may be easy enough to wash and may not need ironing, but cotton, linen, or best of all lightweight wool are best. In winter, you can always out more on underneath but make sure that it does not show. I would also avoid lace, or anything else which may draw attention to you. You are there as a server, and servers should be invisible.

MI is Michigan, Gee D; Missouri is MO.

I believe PentEcclesiastic lives in the Detroit area, and thus in the Great Lakes region, which is famous for hot and sticky summers as well. Not to mention cold and icy winters. In fact, there's about 2 months of nice weather in all the year there, and if the weather had only been better I'd probably never have left Ann Arbor. [Smile]

Posted by LostinChelsea (# 5305) on :

MI actually means Michigan, where it also gets hot.

The generic seminarian's alb -- which means inexpensive and at least in approximation to what others in the place are wearing -- usually means something like this.

It's cool, it's cheap. I've worn one like this for years. It's what most Episcopalians think of as an alb. The traditional alb (pullover, lots of gathers, worn with an amice) will make you stick out as traditionalist of high church tendencies -- which is great if that's what you are.

The very best thing to do is to ask at your parish and they'll point you in the right direction. Good luck!

Posted by (S)pike couchant (# 17199) on :

quote:
Originally posted by LostinChelsea:
MI actually means Michigan, where it also gets hot.

The generic seminarian's alb -- which means inexpensive and at least in approximation to what others in the place are wearing -- usually means something like this.

That's not an alb. I will make no further comment about its merits, but it is most assuredly not an alb, nor does its manufacturer claim that it is one.

Posted by Mamacita (# 3659) on :

Excuse me, (S)pike Couchant, did you happen to read this?

quote:
Originally posted by seasick:
Let's rein in the sniping, shall we? (S)pike Couchant - I'm looking at you. It would be a work of charity if this thread could result in advice which would be of use to PentEcclesiastic.

seasick, Eccles host

I suggest you mark and inwardly digest it as well, lest you attract Adminly attention.

Mamacita, Eccles Host

Posted by Mamacita (# 3659) on :

quote:
Originally posted by PentEcclesiastic:
In a couple of weeks, I will begin interning at a local episcopal church while here in seminary. The rector told me that I'd be needing an alb. What are things I need to look for? I'm not an average proportioned male, so would it make sense to have one customer as opposed to using a stock alb? Fabrics? Colors? Any help would be useful as I don't want to offend anyone.

I very excited, because I'll be a Pentecostal moonlighting as an Anglican for about 9 months. Wish me luck!

PentEcclesiastic, I wish you the very best in your new assignment!

Obviously you've stumbled, through no fault of your own, into some pond differences and some differences in churchmanship that make the Episcopal Church and C of E such interesting and occasionally confounding places. I would suggest you check back with your supervising priest to get absolutely clear on the style of alb that is customary in this parish. My bet is that he is referring to what is also called a cassock-alb, which many clergy and regular folks in mainline denominations in the US just refer to (correctly or not) as an alb. It isn't a matter of what others think is liturgically correct -- which we're apparently going to bicker about in Ecclesiantics until the parousia -- but about what is viewed as appropriate within the parish you are going to serve.

[ 23. August 2012, 23:15: Message edited by: Mamacita ]

Posted by PentEcclesiastic (# 12098) on :

Very good, Mamacita. I definitely didn't know there was a difference, so I will ask what is acceptable. I just didn't want to get stuck in one at was clearly sized for children because of my height. When I find out what's acceptable, these links may come in handy. He did say anything about apparels, but he did mention a cincture rope. I thought he was joking.

And thanks everyone for reminding me to update my demographic information...

Posted by Barefoot Friar (# 13100) on :

For the record, I like Almy's rope cinctures better than Gaspard's. I think they just look better. White is always appropriate, but you can also get them in the appropriate color for the season.

Posted by The Silent Acolyte (# 1158) on :

quote:
Mamcita opines:
I would suggest you check back with your supervising priest to get absolutely clear on the style of alb that is customary in this parish. My bet is that he is referring to what is also called a cassock-alb, which many clergy and regular folks in mainline denominations in the US just refer to (correctly or not) as an alb. It isn't a matter of what others think is liturgically correct...but about what is viewed as appropriate within the parish you are going to serve.

This, entirely this, and nothing but this.

Everything else is a flea fart in a hurricane.

Ya do what's customary for the house. If they wear apparels on their tutus, then you get an apparelled tutu.

As the seminarian, what you wear is the last thing you want people talking about. You want to fit in; you don't want to be the nail sticking up that needs to be hammered down.

Posted by Mr. Rob (# 5823) on :

quote:
Originally posted by PentEcclesiastic:
Greetings shipmates.

In a couple of weeks, I will begin interning at a local episcopal church while here in seminary. The rector told me that I'd be needing an alb. What are things I need to look for?

Since you only have a couple of weeks lead time, don't "want to offend," and are new to all this, send for the American standard, the CM Almy cassock-alb in pure white, no frills, with standing collar in 60/40 cotton-poly. It's machine washable and dryer safe. Make sure you get one long enough to touch the tops of your shoes. With the alb get a white rope waist cord called a cincture to go with it. The whole rig will cost you $130 delivered.

CM Almy Quik Ship Mostly Cotton Cassock-Alb

CM Almy white cotton rope cincture

Don't listen to other suggestions that involve church vestment complexity beyond you, more money or slower delivery times. Get the American basic cassock-alb from Almy's and get going.
*

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

Thank you all for your advice on abbreviations - now tucked away in a corner of the brain. It's a lot easier with only 6 stats and 2 territories to remember.

As I recall Michigan summers, they are as hot as Missouri, and even stickier. I'd always keep away from synthetic, but I suppose that you will not be wearing it for long at any one time. If the Almy is the standard US wear, it looks a good buy. And you can never go wrong with a white cincture. If your rector wishes to change colour with liturgical seasons, there are almost certainly spares in the vestry.

Good luck and I hope you enjoy the change from your experience to date.

[ 24. August 2012, 08:20: Message edited by: Gee D ]

Posted by sebby (# 15147) on :

quote:
Originally posted by (S)pike couchant:
Here are two promising sources. Unfortunately, good albs don't come cheap. I'd buy a used one, if I were you.

Forgive digression _ have you seen the associated LOOME theological book supplies? Just so amusing and interesting. It's on the same link above the photograph of St Josemaria.

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

I wonder why the parish doesn't provide robing for assisting persons in the sanctuary.

I can see why an ordained minister can have her/his own alb. But if you're part of a sanctuary party, then you will all be dressed consistently.

Posted by sebby (# 15147) on :

I would just add that a cassock alb looks better without a girdle, but a conventional alb looks silly without one.

Posted by Poppy (# 2000) on :

I would also check out what colour the garment is meant to be in your new church as they are available in white or cream. I didn't realise the wide variety of styles available until I came to buy one so I checked out what the altar party wears and aimed to blend in. Washability and pockets for a radio mike were practical considerations. As I am very short I got a double breasted cassock alb which may send the purists into tat shock but it works very well for someone of petite build. Most of the unfitted cassock albs swamped me entirely.

[ 24. August 2012, 11:02: Message edited by: Poppy ]

Posted by Chap (# 4926) on :

Check with the priest in charge to see what parish standards exist. Other than that, I have this one (w/o the lace) from CM Almy and like it.

http://www.almy.com/Product2/zc0003164/category/AlbsForMen/parent/ClergyApparel-Man

Posted by seasick (# 48) on :

My advice would be to check the width of the sleeves. Many cassock-albs have very wide sleeves and I find they can be an annoyance at the altar. In one of the seminaries where I spent time, it was the practise that a student would serve as deacon at the Eucharist and I remember serving as such for one fairly large service with many guests (we were in Atlanta and it was for Martin Luther King Day) - I spent a lot of the offertory being worried that my sleeves would pull over a chalice or flagon. I've recently invested in a cassock-alb and asked specially for it to be made with narrow sleeves. I only had a traditional one before, which I still prefer but for a day like today where I was presiding at a funeral in the crematorium and then going straight on to a meeting elsewhere, the cassock-alb certainly makes life more convenient.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:

quote:
Originally posted by (S)pike couchant:
(Angloid, who has a great fondness for cassock albs will be here shortly to extol their virtues: don't listen).
Fame!
Cassock-albs and their merits/demerits should be a Dead Horse.

So should amices, appareled or otherwise.

Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on :

I thought vestments etc were supposed to be made from pure natural fibers, regardless of style. Albs being both unbleached and undyed - symbolic of purity or some such.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Poppy:
they are available in white or cream.

Mine is cream. Goes better with my light brown trainers.

Posted by Gramps49 (# 16378) on :

Thirty years ago I bought a Franciscan style Alb from Blue Cloud Abbey in South Dakota. It has been a great Alb. Unfortunately I just discovered the Abbey in now closed. Bummer.

My son is going into seminary in a year and I had hoped to purchase one for him.

Now I will have to look for another source.

BTW: The Alb is actually an undergarment. It is not to be worn over a cassock. I think you are thinking of a surplus. You don't see them much anymore in the American Church.

Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :

No they are not. Look at the links at the start of the thread and you will see that there are albs that go over a cassock. What you are talking about are technically called cassock-albs, which combine the cassock and the alb into one. In the US these are often shorted to alb.

I got all that from long experience here and reading this thread.

Jengie

Posted by Basilica (# 16965) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
BTW: The Alb is actually an undergarment. It is not to be worn over a cassock. I think you are thinking of a surplus. You don't see them much anymore in the American Church.

What has historically been referred to as an alb is a garment that goes over the cassock (and generally under eucharistic vestments). It is generally fairly thin and is therefore partially transparent and so unsuitable for wearing over street clothes without a cassock. Furthermore, the neckline generally necessitates the wearing of an amice.

True albs are now fairly rare. More common is the cassock-alb, a hybrid garment that doesn't need a cassock underneath (though my personal opinion is that they still look better with a cassock). This is the garment referred to by Gramps49: it is frequently referred to simply as an alb, particularly as cassock-albs have become dominant and true albs relatively rare.

(A surplice is something different entirely, and is a term that covers a multitude of sins: the only general truths are that they are white and tend to be shorter than ankle length – anywhere from mid-calf to waist length.)

Posted by Emendator Liturgia (# 17245) on :

quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
I wonder why the parish doesn't provide robing for assisting persons in the sanctuary. I can see why an ordained minister can have her/his own alb. But if you're part of a sanctuary party, then you will all be dressed consistently.

Part of the issue, Venbede, is liekly two-fold:

a) the first is financial: to have enough right-fitting albs for everyone would be a large expense if you want to do it right (as in the alb coming to the top of the shoe): consider the number of people to robe, the number of services, the range of heights, girths, neck size etc., and the differing needs/fits of men and women.

b) the second is practical: a number of servers I've known have preferred to have their own, based on parish requirements, as that means they always have one that fits, they can take it home and keep it washed and ironed (in summer that is every week, as has been mentioned by others with regards to regions in the US), and that they don't have to wear a parish stock one that has not been wahed and ironed in ages, or has been worn at one service immediately prior to the one they are assisting at and has a residual ordour not just of the incense but of the sweating person who had already worn it. PHEW!

Posted by Mr. Rob (# 5823) on :

quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
I wonder why the parish doesn't provide robing for assisting persons in the sanctuary.

I can see why an ordained minister can have her/his own alb. But if you're part of a sanctuary party, then you will all be dressed consistently.

It's very much the usual thing in America for a beginning seminarian to buy a good, reasonably priced clergy alb or cassock alb & cincture, thus avoiding pot luck and perhaps ill fitting church wardrobe garments. In addition, many seminarians are required or prefer to buy a cassock and surplice. This stuff is seen as part of the basic equipment for a seminarian's manditory parish field work assignments.
*

Posted by Mr. Rob (# 5823) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:

BTW: The Alb is actually an undergarment. It is not to be worn over a cassock. I think you are thinking of a surplus. You don't see them much anymore in the American Church.

1. I don't know where you got the information that an alb is not to be worn over a cassock because that is patently not been so for at least the last 5-600 years. The alb may be worn over street clothes without the cassock, but we are far removed from using the alb as underwear next to our skin-we devoutly hope. I think you may have construed hearing of the alb as an undergarment for the cope, chasuble, dalmatics and tunicle. But it is perfectly OK to wear a cassock with all of that.

2. The surplice was anciently derived from the alb. It's just an alb with very big sleeves. The surplice gradually became somewhat shortened, but it too can be, and most often is nowadays worn over the cassock. Perhaps not where you live, but the surplice is very much in evidence and worn universally throughout the Episcopal Church in America, especially for ceremonial occasions other than the Eucharist.
*

Posted by Gramps49 (# 16378) on :

Actually the garment that I have is a true alb, not a cassock alb, though that seems to be what most vestment supply companies are selling these days.

When I started seminary I did have a black cassock with surplice and I wore it for just a couple of years, then went to a basic alb. When I was ordained I purchased the Franciscan Alb.

I don't think Lutheran seminaries require a black cassock with surplice anymore.

But I know we are talking about an Episcopalian seminarian here.

Posted by Mama Thomas (# 10170) on :

I strongly prefer a real alb to a cassock-alb. They are thin, cool (all senses) and if you wear them with an amice and hang them up after a service they can last a few weeks without washing and ironing. They can never be too big, because you can bind them up with your girdle.

Cassock-albs are very expensive and I can't trust myself in one because of their their huge sleeves. To me, the fake hoods on them seem very inauthentic, especially when worn with other inauthentic sales ploys like "liturgically correct" girdles worn "Franciscan style."

But they are ubiquitous in mainline Protestant circles and have been for so long, and so ecumenical-Lutheran, Methodist, Episcopal--most parishes have forgotten how recent and commercial they really are.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mama Thomas:
Cassock-albs are very expensive and I can't trust myself in one because of their their huge sleeves. To me, the fake hoods on them seem very inauthentic

Not all cassock-albs have hoods.

Posted by Gramps49 (# 16378) on :

Actually, Mama Thomas, the Alb goes way back to the first century of the church. You can even see drawings of priests wearing albs in the catacombs of Rome from the first century. Cassocks came a little later, around the fourth century. They did not become mandatory dress until the 13th century.

Posted by Mr. Rob (# 5823) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mama Thomas:

... Cassock-albs are very expensive and I can't trust myself in one because of their their huge sleeves. To me, the fake hoods on them seem very inauthentic, especially when worn with other inauthentic sales ploys like "liturgically correct" girdles worn "Franciscan style" ...

On the contrary, well made, very reasonably priced cassock-albs can be found at CM Almy, for instance. They are made with regular sized alb sleeves, hoods or no hoods, by preference, and can be paired with any type of cincture (girdle) desired.

These cassock-albs are ready made and stocked or made to measure in a variety of sizes in a range of fabrics and even with a spare amount of trimming if you wish. The stocked cassock alb sizes come in a range of fabrics that are ready for 'QuikShip' delivery.

Have a look.

CM Almy cassock-albs for men

CM Almy cassock-albs for women

Almy also makes the traditional (non-cassock) alb.

BTW, I don't work for Almy, and I have no personal interest in the business except as one of their satisfied customers. I have one of theirstock 60/40 cotton poly cassock-albs with a regular non-hooded standing collar that has seen years of use. You can run that alb through your regular home washer and dryer and it comes out looking great every time. No amice is needed, either, just the white rope cincture which is also washable.
*

Posted by Mama Thomas (# 10170) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
Actually, Mama Thomas, the Alb goes way back to the first century of the church. You can even see drawings of priests wearing albs in the catacombs of Rome from the first century. Cassocks came a little later, around the fourth century. They did not become mandatory dress until the 13th century.

The alb, yes. I've even dresses baptismal candidates in them and dunked them in rivers, and had them kneel in huge basins. The alb is ancient and comely and a powerful symbol of being washed in the blood of the Lamb. I love it, but not the blindingly white cassock-alb, which is loved, universal and ecumenical, or the pseudo-monkish oaten coloured whatever it's called.

Even so, it is not for me. I still prefer the cassock and surplice, (classic) or amice, alb, and and white girdle tied the way traditional for Mass.

I still feel the cassock-alb is too contrived and commercial. That's just me though. If I didn't have full euchies, I'd go with cassock and surplice instead of the cassock-alb.

Posted by Mama Thomas (# 10170) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Rob:

quote:
Originally posted by Mama Thomas:

... Cassock-albs are very expensive and I can't trust myself in one because of their their huge sleeves. To me, the fake hoods on them seem very inauthentic, especially when worn with other inauthentic sales ploys like "liturgically correct" girdles worn "Franciscan style" ...

On the contrary, well made, very reasonably priced cassock-albs can be found at CM Almy, for instance. They are made with regular sized alb sleeves, hoods or no hoods, by preference, and can be paired with any type of cincture (girdle) desired.

These cassock-albs are ready made and stocked or made to measure in a variety of sizes in a range of fabrics and even with a spare amount of trimming if you wish. The stocked cassock alb sizes come in a range of fabrics that are ready for 'QuikShip' delivery.

Have a look.

CM Almy cassock-albs for men

CM Almy cassock-albs for women

Almy also makes the traditional (non-cassock) alb.

BTW, I don't work for Almy, and I have no personal interest in the business except as one of their satisfied customers. I have one of theirstock 60/40 cotton poly cassock-albs with a regular non-hooded standing collar that has seen years of use. You can run that alb through your regular home washer and dryer and it comes out looking great every time. No amice is needed, either, just the white rope cincture which is also washable.
*

Sorry for the double post, but that's part of the reason I dislike them. A real alb and girdle is almost "one size fits all.". A priest or parish needn't spend so much money on them. If it's too long, just pull it up around the girdle, which if tied traditionally, holds the crossed stole perfectly (not that the congregation should necessarily see the stole).

Posted by Fr Weber (# 13472) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:

BTW: The Alb is actually an undergarment. It is not to be worn over a cassock. I think you are thinking of a surplus. You don't see them much anymore in the American Church.

I'm not sure about that, Gramps49; the surplice (as a liturgical garment) looks awfully like a modified/abbreviated alb to me, and seems to serve the same function.

Posted by (S)pike couchant (# 17199) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:

quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:

BTW: The Alb is actually an undergarment. It is not to be worn over a cassock. I think you are thinking of a surplus. You don't see them much anymore in the American Church.
I'm not sure about that, Gramps49; the surplice (as a liturgical garment) looks awfully like a modified/abbreviated alb to me, and seems to serve the same function.

There's no question about it: they are different developments of the same garment. The surplice is simply an alb designed to be easily slipped on and off.

Posted by sebby (# 15147) on :

The vicar in my home village used to sling on a chasable over a surplice. It never looked quite right though.

Posted by PentEcclesiastic (# 12098) on :

quote:
quote:
Originally posted by PentEcclesiastic:
In a couple of weeks, I will begin interning at a local episcopal church while here in seminary. The rector told me that I'd be needing an alb. What are things I need to look for? I'm not an average proportioned male, so would it make sense to have one customer as opposed to using a stock alb? Fabrics? Colors? Any help would be useful as I don't want to offend anyone.

I very excited, because I'll be a Pentecostal moonlighting as an Anglican for about 9 months. Wish me luck!
PentEcclesiastic, I wish you the very best in your new assignment!

Obviously you've stumbled, through no fault of your own, into some pond differences and some differences in churchmanship that make the Episcopal Church and C of E such interesting and occasionally confounding places. I would suggest you check back with your supervising priest to get absolutely clear on the style of alb that is customary in this parish. My bet is that he is referring to what is also called a cassock-alb, which many clergy and regular folks in mainline denominations in the US just refer to (correctly or not) as an alb. It isn't a matter of what others think is liturgically correct -- which we're apparently going to bicker about in Ecclesiantics until the parousia -- but about what is viewed as appropriate within the parish you are going to serve.

[ 23. August 2012, 23:15: Message edited by: Mamacita ]

I didn't know that this thread would explode the way it did. It's been very intriguing. My supervising priest told me that Anglican may not always fight over theology, but the guns will come out when it comes to liturgy. I'm guessing he was right.

I did ask him, and briefed him about some of the things mentioned here. He told me that he suggested a cassock-alb, but wasn't the person to really give advice on this kind of thing. So, he threw me to the wolves on the Worship Committee.

Posted by Mr. Rob (# 5823) on :

quote:
Originally posted by PentEcclesiastic:

quote:

My bet is that he is referring to what is also called a cassock-alb, which many clergy and regular folks in mainline denominations in the US just refer to (correctly or not) as an alb ...

I did ask him, and briefed him about some of the things mentioned here. He told me that he suggested a cassock-alb, but wasn't the person to really give advice on this kind of thing. So, he threw me to the wolves on the Worship Committee.

Well DON'T go asking a worship committee. You will be bothering them with something beyond their level of expertise. Just buy a plain, white, Almy, cassock alb for starters and be done with this.

As to this British-American alb or cassock-alb nonsense, don't be misled. As an American (Pentecostal) seminary intern of a sort, get the basic, usable, inexpensive liturgical garment that Episcopalians call an alb, but which really is a cassock-alb. Just do it, and to hell with worship committees.
*

Posted by PentEcclesiastic (# 12098) on :

Update: it's been decided that I will be trained as a Eucharistic Minister and will be wearing a cassock and a surplice. I was taken to the vesting room to find a cassock I could fit. When they got through with me, I looked like a kid playing dress up. Sleeves too short and the surplice looked huge. I looked frumpy.

Pentecostals, at least in my neck of the woods, know things about cassocks. We do actually get a lot of mileage out of those. But they're not thin and flimsy they way the one I tried on was. So I guess I'm in the market for one, seeing that I probably will wear a cassock after seminary.

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

When I was serving, there was always a silly five minutes going through the cupboard to find a cassock that could fit.

I found one that did, and put it on a hanger with my name on it.

I was quite unreasonably cross whenever I found it had been moved and was not available.

A cassock, like a good suit, ought to fit (although it will in part be covered by the surplice). As Mama Thomas says, an old fashioned alb can be adjusted in length by the girdle, which is always the critical dimension.

Any rate good luck, penty.

Posted by Mama Thomas (# 10170) on :

quote:
Originally posted by PentEcclesiastic:
Update: it's been decided that I will be trained as a Eucharistic Minister and will be wearing a cassock and a surplice. I was taken to the vesting room to find a cassock I could fit. When they got through with me, I looked like a kid playing dress up. Sleeves too short and the surplice looked huge. I looked frumpy.

Pentecostals, at least in my neck of the woods, know things about cassocks. We do actually get a lot of mileage out of those. But they're not thin and flimsy they way the one I tried on was. So I guess I'm in the market for one, seeing that I probably will wear a cassock after seminary.

A much more attractive choice and one that has tradition behind it. Be sure to post a pic somewhere!

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

It depends on the surplice. Those skimpy ones that are less than knee-length, with sleeves that neither drape properly nor stay tucked out of the way, are horrible IMHO. Either a full-length Old English version (which are incredibly expensive, which is why I've not got one), or a decent (ie non-lacy) cotta, or an alb – cassock or otherwise. Please!

Posted by sebby (# 15147) on :

A clerical friend has considered a slight extravagence: treating himself to having a silk alb made. A number of us have been offering a little advice as to what style this should be, although in no doubt that our opinions will go very far with him.

I suppose it ought to be the traditional shape suitable to be worn with an amice under a chasable with a girdle. However if the silk is thick enough it might be possible to wear it without a cassock.

What style should it be?

Posted by Amos (# 44) on :

Why on earth does he want a silk alb?
The whole principle of an alb is that it's supposed to be clean and white. So the best albs are made of fine linen and kept laundered and ironed. The same is true of surplices, which is why the problem with the Wareham Guild surplice is not the initial cost but the hugely time-consuming ironing.
An alb isn't supposed to be shiny nor to draw attention to itself.
Get your friend a few sets of silk underwear in liturgical colours and tell him to stick to a proper alb in linen or cotton. Or point him in the direction of one of those Easter season albs which are 'lace from the paps down.'

[ 02. September 2012, 19:54: Message edited by: Amos ]

Posted by (S)pike couchant (# 17199) on :

There's plenty of precedent for silk albs! I'm glad to see someone restoring this venerable Mediaeval custom.

Posted by sebby (# 15147) on :

Do you know of any illustrations of silk albs, or any links?

Posted by Mama Thomas (# 10170) on :

Forgive me, but the very idea of silk albs is absurd. What a waste of money!

Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on :

This is 12th century, and more than bit flashy.

Nowadays it seems, not even Luzar do them in silk.

Posted by sebby (# 15147) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mama Thomas:
Forgive me, but the very idea of silk albs is absurd. What a waste of money!

But I have heard of people who pay more than £2000 for a car!

Or...just this morning heard of someone who spent £2000 to go on the piss with mates in Las Vagas (not Prince Harry).

I'm sure a silk alb would cost less than that and for some be much more enjoyable.

It is often the case that when vesture is discussed it is a 'waste of money' but other extravagences are not. I had this discussion with a retired priest who was shocked at the extravagence only to go on to say that he paid £25,000 for his new car.

Or the person who was shocked that I once paid £500 for a newly upholstered 18thC mahogany sofa, yet was willing to spend far more on something from Maples that would have lost money the instant it left the showroom.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

What I look for in an albe?

Something that doesn't crease or need lots of ironing as i move between 3 different churches.

And before anyone says i should have 3 albs, i am not made of money and nor are my churches - and as i am 6 foot 7 inches tall, they don't come off the peg but have to be specially made.

Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
This is 12th century, and more than bit flashy.

I think I've found my dream night-gown!

For use as an ecclesiastical undergarment, maybe not so much...

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