Ship of Fools: Tat on Tippets

Thread: Tat on Tippets Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras (# 11274) on :

On another social media site I got into a bit of a scrap with a priest of TEC over a photo showing seals/crests sewn onto the cleric's tippet high up at upper chest level. During the ensuing discussion, this cleric further informed me that there were two more crests sewn onto the ends of the tippet.

I realise that the seal of the institution where the priest received his/her theological degree is sometimes sewn onto the end of one side of the tippet, and you occasionally see seals on both ends. I don't believe IRL I have ever seen seals at chest level and certainly never four seals adorning the tippet (in this case the two upper ones were of the priest's parish church and diocese, and the two at the ends of two different academic institutions.

My own impression: that makes for a tacky tippet. The tippet isn't a scout sash for the display of merit badges, for goodness sake. IMO it looks best as a somber black scarf contrasting with the pure white of a full English surplice. Seals break up this somber, classic colour scheme, which isn't to my mind very desirable aesthetically. I would also think that when officiating a burial in surplice and scarf, one really wouldn't want to be displaying university crests on the scarf.

I know there was an old thread on tippet issues - I reviewed some of it yesterday, and saw references to horrid decorations on tippets.

What do Ecclesianticans think of tat on tippets? Are you for it or agin' it? Should such decorations be restricted to institutional seals on the ends only? One end? Both ends? Put them anywhere and everywhere?

And do any of you blue scarf wearers decorate your reader's tippet?

Finally, let's try to see what practice is most prevalent in different provinces,e.g. TEC v. CofE, etc.

Sadly, St Percy doesn't seem to address this specific issue.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

Scarves should be plain black or blue - an exception might be a diocesan crest for canons to wear (as i used to see when i lived in Salisbury diocese).

Posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras (# 11274) on :

Thank you, Leo. My view exactly.

I have a bad feeling that tatty tippets may be a distinctly colonial affliction. But let's see.

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

I seem to remember somebody (?Sebby?) saying service chaplains are improperly addressed if their scarves do not carry regimental badges and correct medal ribbons. I've certainly seen clergy who have carried this over into civilian life.

Posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras (# 11274) on :

I find the wearing of service ribbons on the upper left side of the tippet, at least outside of a proper military context, rather horrid. I knew one parish priest who did that on the rare occasions he wore a black scarf (same guy who on certain high holy days had the flags of the USA, Great Britain, Texas, and TEC processed up the nave and into the sanctuary where two each of the banners habitually lived on the north and south ends inside the rails). Another priest of my acquaintance who would never dream of doing such a thing recalls his upbringing in a surprisingly low church Midwestern diocese in which his parish priest wore service ribbons on the tippet (which was apparently worn for the celebration of ye Lorde's Supper) on national days. Falls just short of a projectile vomit emoticon IMO.

Posted by Mamacita (# 3659) on :

It sounds like a photo I saw yesterday. The cleric was blessing children so the big honking emblems were hanging at the same height as their little faces. It was very distracting. I am only offering an inexperienced opinion on this one, but I think such obvious personalization is out of place. Even if it's a parish or diocesan symbol. It seems, I don't know ... partisan? I can't quite find the word for it but it seems to be making particular in a place that should be about the universal.

(Massive cross-post. I can understand a different need in the case of a military chaplain or perhaps a hospital chaplain, where some kind of identifying emblem may be necessary.)

[ 14. September 2012, 13:37: Message edited by: Mamacita ]

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

And I used to know an ex Vulcan pilot who, ordained in later life (not as a service chaplain), wore the RAF badge on his scarf. Can't remember any medal ribbons, but don't even know whether he had any. There's Betjemans' 'Our Padre', isn't there- 'still he has a hearty handshake/ still he wears his medals and a stole'.

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

May be a pond thing here about medal ribbons, too. After all, most British chaplains/ ex-service clergy would be likely to have perhaps one comparatively discreet row of ribbons, even given the many medal-gaining opportunities that Mr Blair & Mr Brown provided: whereas every US serviceman I've ever seen a picture of who has any medals at all seems to be toting something the size of a 200g bar of chocolate on his left breast.

[ 14. September 2012, 13:47: Message edited by: Albertus ]

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

There is a sizeable minority of evangelical clergy here in England who delight in having (usually rather tacky) religious motifs embroidered on their black scarf. It's the sort of thing that would be acceptable, liturgically if not on taste grounds, on a stole but seems quite out of place on a scarf. If they object to the principle of coloured stoles it seems illogical. Anyone care to defend this practice?

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

Just thinking about that, if it's not OK to have badges, emblems etc on a black scarf, why is it OK to have them on a coloured stole? Logic would suggest either that a black scarf actually should have a Bible, a psalter or some similar emblem embroidered on the end of it, or a stole should not have a cross, dove, martyrs crown or whatever.

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

That is not my point. Leaving aside the tastefulness or otherwise of such emblems, the fact is that evangelicals have traditionally been resistant to wearing stoles, decorated or not. They have preferred the unadorned black scarf as the ministerial badge of office which does not imply a special 'priestly' status. If some people have now taken to ornamenting scarves to look like stoles, doesn't that blur the distinction?

Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on :

I think that I will join in the majority opinion and say that it's a bit silly to put 'stuff' on tippets. Be that as it may, it makes that rather dour item look a little less forbidding and black, so I'm not inclined to become too grumpy about it. Although maybe I'm only saying that because it's a Friday afternoon and the sun is shining!

Posted by seasick (# 48) on :

My tippet is plain black. Some might feel that against a black cassock and black gown, it is too dour but I see no problem. After all I do have bands and the white of my hood to brighten it up slightly! [Smile]

Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on :

quote:
Originally posted by seasick:
My tippet is plain black. Some might feel that against a black cassock and black gown, it is too dour but I see no problem. After all I do have bands and the white of my hood to brighten it up slightly!

Maybe the darkness of the tippet is God's way of telling His ministers to get PhD's so they can have a nice bit of scarlet to lighten the tone!

Posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras (# 11274) on :

In the debate I had with the cleric in question, they asserted that the tippet is essentially an academic garment and therefore it was no big deal to stick various institutional and academic insignia on it. My understanding, however, is that the scarf may possibly have developed from the wings of old style academic hoods, but this explanation isn't conclusive and besides, tippets are not worn in modern ecclesiastical usage as academic regalia, but as part of clerical choir habit (though you rarely see Anglo-Catholic clergy wearing the tippet for offices). +Robert Mercer, sometime Bishop of Matabeleland, pointed out once that the chimere is thought to have developed from a medieval Spanish riding cloak; I would say, by way of analogy, that we don't therefore add various equestrian bits and bobs to the bishop's choir-and-court outfit. If the chimere was once a riding cloak, that really is irrelevant to its use for the last several centuries -- same goes for the tippet.

Posted by seasick (# 48) on :

Clearly!

ETA: Response to dj_ordinaire

[ 14. September 2012, 15:45: Message edited by: seasick ]

Posted by Vaticanchic (# 13869) on :

The older handbooks say tippets should have nothing on them at all, because they are simply an extension of the academic hood. In other words, you shouldn't wear one without a hood.

From a style point of view, where do you stop?! You can't wear badges for every damn thing you belong to, or it becomes a joke.

What I don't quite get is UK cathedral clergy wearing the arms of the diocese rather than those of the cathedral, implying other diocesan clergy are somehow not as good!

Medal ribbons on tippets have a long and honourable history. In the UK, they will tend to be few. Even if not strictly correct, well you wouldn't tell a soldier not the wear them, would you?

Posted by Mr. Rob (# 5823) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
... I don't believe IRL I have ever seen seals at chest level ...

What do Ecclesianticans think of tat on tippets? Are you for it or agin' it?

And do any of you blue scarf wearers decorate your reader's tippet?

Finally, let's try to see what practice is most prevalent in different provinces,e.g. TEC v. CofE, etc.

Sadly, St Percy doesn't seem to address this specific issue.

The clergy (and lay canons even) of Washington Cathedral wear the seal of the cathedral on the upper left chest of their tippets. I think something similar may be done at Grace Cathedral, San Francisco.

Personally, I detest the practice of affixing
anything to a tippet. It's a horrid custom. Tippets, properly, should be plain black, and that includes those of armed forces chaplains. I don't care what forces regulations say. A chaplain's tippet should properly plain black without any tat or (horreur!) ribbon bars or medals. What is this, the Boy Scouts?!

In the The Episcopal Church, USA, lay readers have generally never worn tippets of blue or any other color. I personally think the blue tippet of C of E readers is a silly custom.

No, no. St. Percy said a great deal if you read carefully. Percy never, even in his wildest nightmares, considered tippets to have tat sewn or pinned on them. I'm sure if he did see such he looked away in another direction in complete revulsion, to avoid an occasion of sin. Actually, Percy did say that tippets should always be folded to fit the neck, He did not approve of sewing down the pleats at the neck. He also said that the plain black tippet of dignitaries, such as bishops, deans, archdeacons or canons, should be of black silk, nine inches wide. The tippets of lower orders of the clergy should be made of black "stuff" (fine wool or serge) and six inches wide.

Tippets are like the little black cocktail dress. Don't add anything and leave well enough alone.
*

Posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras (# 11274) on :

Bravo Mr Rob! It might interest you to know that I have run across on on-line official document from the Diocese of South Dakota (or North Dakota. - can't recall which) that prescribes black tippets for licensed readers. I know that Percy has a lot to say on the specifications of tippets but he never mentions the issue of any adornment upon them, so you are likely correct that he didn't even contemplate the possibility of such a thing.

Posted by Mamacita (# 3659) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Rob:
Tippets are like the little black cocktail dress. Don't add anything and leave well enough alone.
*

Why, Mr. Rob. Every lady knows you wear a tasteful string of pearls with your LBD. Not that I'd sew them on a tippet, mind you.

Posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras (# 11274) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mamacita:

quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Rob:
Tippets are like the little black cocktail dress. Don't add anything and leave well enough alone.
*
Why, Mr. Rob. Every lady knows you wear a tasteful string of pearls with your LBD. Not that I'd sew them on a tippet, mind you.

I had the same thought, but I think that's what the white of the surplice achieves against the foreground of the little black cocktail scarf.

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

Acn someone help me. Tippets are always black (or blue for readers in the C of E), while the stole is in the colour appropriate to the season. What other differences are there please, and how do they differ to scarves? I think of tippets as being shaped across the back, so that the centre curves down to a point. Is this correct please?

Posted by Mr. Rob (# 5823) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Acn someone help me. Tippets are always black (or blue for readers in the C of E), while the stole is in the colour appropriate to the season. What other differences are there please, and how do they differ to scarves? I think of tippets as being shaped across the back, so that the centre curves down to a point. Is this correct please?

Well first of all, stoles and tippets are different things. Since that is the case, they should not be substituted for each other. As others here have pointed out, tippets are really more in the category of academic regalia formerly worn by a variety of those with learning and academic credentials, of course including clerks in Holy Orders. Tippets are now worn only by clerics and Commonwealth high court judges. They are always black, and there is no "point" at the back of the neck. Also, tippets most properly should not be shaped or sewn flat at the neck but merely folded over for comfort and neat appearance.

A stole is a vestment proper to those in Holy Orders alone as a sign of authority. Deacons wear the stole on the left shoulder, while priests and bishops wear the stole over both shoulders around the neck. It is the stole's placement around the neck of priests and bishops that give it that pendant similarity to tippets. But tippets are a sign of the dignity of Holy Orders or a Commonwealth judge robed on the bench in court. To confuse matters a bit further, ordained deacons wear the tippet around both shoulders, the neck, just like priests and bishops do.

Stoles are properly worn for sacraments and sacramental acts. Stoles, most properly, are made of fine material or silk in the verious liturgical colors. Tippets, always black, are worn as part of choir dress for the divine office and other acts of public worship. Anglican clergy, with some few other robed, English tradition, Protestant clergy, are surely the only ones left in the world who wear tippets .... except for those blue reader's tippets. Who invented those blue things, anyway? Someone at a desk in Church House, Westminster, with nothing better to do?
*

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

Thanks Mr Rob, I know the differences in usage etc, and as I said, the colour. But what is the physical difference otherwise? If I see them hanging up on a rack, what's the difference between a black funeral stole and a black tippet?

BTW, judges here do not wear tippets, just gowns and sometimes wigs as well -this depends on the court and the matter being heard.

Posted by Emendator Liturgia (# 17245) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
BTW, judges here do not wear tippets, just gowns and sometimes wigs as well -this depends on the court and the matter being heard.

Gee D, are you sure about that: the item may be called a scarf rather than a tippet, but I seem to recall that Judges of the Supreme Courts of the States and Territories of Australia wear on formal occasions a red scarlet robe with white fur facings, bands or a jabot, a black scarf and girdle and a scarlet casting-hood, with a full-bottomed wig.

Posted by FooloftheShip (# 15579) on :

[tangent] this thread could almost be called tippety tat - oh and tatty tippet is quite a good tonguetwister [/tangent]

Posted by Mr. Rob (# 5823) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Thanks Mr Rob, I know the differences in usage etc, and as I said, the colour. But what is the physical difference otherwise? If I see them hanging up on a rack, what's the difference between a black funeral stole and a black tippet?

BTW, judges here do not wear tippets, just gowns and sometimes wigs as well -this depends on the court and the matter being heard.

Yes, I should have said tippets (black scarf) are still worn by judges in some Commonwealth countries.

You know Gee D, Google is your friend, and most all of the information you want about stoles v tippets can easy be found on the web. Wikipedia is a great source of information on such things.

Begin here with Wikipedia on Stoles. See the tippet link. There are lots of photos.
*

Posted by Mr. Rob (# 5823) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:

quote:
Originally posted by Mamacita:

quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Rob:
Tippets are like the little black cocktail dress. Don't add anything and leave well enough alone.
*
Why, Mr. Rob. Every lady knows you wear a tasteful string of pearls with your LBD. Not that I'd sew them on a tippet, mind you.
I had the same thought, but I think that's what the white of the surplice achieves against the foreground of the little black cocktail scarf.

Exactly!

A nice, white surplice provides the same contrast as the nice, white pearls. As the clothing catalogs say:

"Timeless. Traditional. Classic. Elegant Simplicity."
*

Posted by Mama Thomas (# 10170) on :

Plain, with nothing on them. If possible, they're worse than "personalised" stoles.

Once, I saw someone wearing a tippet with an amice, a real alb and a girdle.

I myself have had to catch myself from kissing it when donning and doffing it.

For some reason some priests seem to like wearing them for blessings or for ecumenical dos where nothing more than a clerical suit would suffice. I just have to roll my eyes, take a breath and move on when I see things
Iike that.

Posted by Mr. Rob (# 5823) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mama Thomas:

... Once, I saw someone wearing a tippet with an amice, a real alb and a girdle ...

I've heard such tales.

I think it was someone on the Ship who mentioned a tippet worn with a cassock alb, and I know I've heard here of English lay readers wearing those awful blue tippets with albs.

Unless I take one of my magic pills I won't get good rest tonight at the recollection of such distressful stories.
*

Posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras (# 11274) on :

I believe our Ken has been known to mix cassock-alb with blue scarf.

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

Thanks Mr Rob, but well before I posted I had looked at the sites of various clerical supplies in both the US and Uk, as well as Wikipedia; no better informed than I had been before looking. Alas, there are no suppliers in Sydney where I can see the items side by side and compare.

Posted by Kayarecee (# 17289) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
If I see them hanging up on a rack, what's the difference between a black funeral stole and a black tippet?

My understanding, as a non-tippet-wearing Lutheran who occasionally worships with occasionally-tippet-wearing Episcopalians, is that the stole is made of, for want of a better word, fancier fabric - usually damask silk, or a faux version thereof, often has decorative embroidery at the ends and usually a cross embroidered in the middle. It may or may not be tapered and/or come to a point in the middle, so that it drapes better around the neck of its wearer, and often has fringe at the bottoms of the ends. By contrast, a tippet has no fringe, no embroidery,* is made of ordinary fabric (usually either wool or some sort of synthetic blend, but basically of the same kind of fabric a cassock is made of), and is not countoured; it's just a long black rectangular scarf.

*"no embroidery" of course, with the aforementioned diocesan or educational-institution seals notwithstanding, but even if one were to encounter a sealed tippet hanging in a sacristy, the embroidered seal should be fairly easy to distinguish from the kinds of symbols which usually adorn stoles.

Posted by Mamacita (# 3659) on :

Welcome, Kayarcee, to the Ship of Fools and to the Ecclesiantics board. There's a general Welcome Newbies thread in All Saints if you feel so inclined. In any case, enjoy sailing with us.

Mamacita, Ecclesiantics Host

Posted by Emendator Liturgia (# 17245) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Alas, there are no suppliers in Sydney where I can see the items side by side and compare.

Gee D, Church Stores in George Street have both tippets/scarfs and stoles on display or in stock for you to have a look at.

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

Thank you both, Kayarcee and Emli, that's the info I was needing. It's the sort of difference between my stuff gown, and a QC's
/SC's silk. But of course, neither of them is embroidered with anything.

Posted by Mr. Rob (# 5823) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Thanks Mr Rob, but well before I posted I had looked at the sites of various clerical supplies in both the US and Uk, as well as Wikipedia; no better informed than I had been before looking. Alas, there are no suppliers in Sydney where I can see the items side by side and compare.

Not true Gee D, it took all of two minutes for me to find a photo of a tippet (scarf) worn with with a cassock and surplice in the CM Almy catalog.

CM Almy tippet - $89.00USD

Stoles took another minute.

CM Almy clergy stoles - various prices

If you want to buy any of this stuff, Almy ships world wide.

As shipmate Emendator Liturgia, suggests, stop by Church Stores, 2nd Floor of the Dymocks Bldg, 428 George St., Sydney. Phone: (02) 9233 2268. Toll free: 1-800-656-483. They will help you with both stoles and tippets (scarfs). There are also photos in their catalog website linked below.

Stoles and tippets (scarfs) at Church Stores, Sydney

Best of luck!
*

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

Mr Rob, I had seen the Almy site, as well as Zeigler and others, and seen the sort of photos you note. But I could not see in them the sort of difference so well described by Kayarcee. Thos descriptions are what I had been seeking.

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Rob:
...I've heard here of English lay readers wearing those awful blue tippets ...

What do Readers wear in the US then? Or doesn't it have them?

Posted by Vulpior (# 12744) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
I believe our Ken has been known to mix cassock-alb with blue scarf.

I wouldn't be too worried about blue scarves with cassock-albs in those places where cassock-albs are ubiquitous, but I have seen that plus an academic hood at Eucharistic services.

I believe that I have only seen Diocesan crests and military medals on tippets in Anglican environments, but I'm pretty sure I've seen more variety among non-conformists.

Posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras (# 11274) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:

quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Rob:
...I've heard here of English lay readers wearing those awful blue tippets ...
What do Readers wear in the US then? Or doesn't it have them?

"Lay Readers", as they have traditionally been called here, or "Licensed Readers", normally just wear cassock and surplice without a scarf. However, a few dioceses do authorise the tippet for readers. As I reported above, I've seen guidelines on-line from either North or South Dakota that mandate a black tippet for readers, and IIRC I've also seen or been told that at least one diocese in the Deep South (maybe an Alabama diocese)authorises tippets for lay readers. Readers would naturally be permitted use of the academic hood to which they would be entitled if they possess a post-graduate degree, though it is unusual to possess such an item unless one is on the faculty of a university and hence needing a hood and gown for the occasional academic procession and convocation. I'm not sure if blue readers' scarves are in authorised use anywhere in America. I am also aware from direct personal communication of an incident years ago in the Anglican Catholic Church in which +James Mote's representative to a congregation (Salt Lake City IIRC) ordered the congregation's reader to desist from use of the tippet, rather erroneously telling the reader that the tippet was "a priestly vestment". The tiff had a great deal more to it than tippets, but I relate it as an example of confusion over what in America is a little seen bit of ecclesiastical vesture.

Posted by Corvo (# 15220) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
I believe our Ken has been known to mix cassock-alb with blue scarf.

That's what we do here. The vicar usually grumbles about it when he is in blue of Mary's colour and the Reader looks like a concelebrant.

Posted by seasick (# 48) on :

I remember from my year in the US deputising in the choir for a nearby Episcopal Church for a special Evensong (I forget the occasion now) and was surprised to see the seminarian assisting (whom I knew) in cassock, surplice and tippet. I asked her about it afterwards and she said that the rector had told her to as it looked better!

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
I believe our Ken has been known to mix cassock-alb with blue scarf.

And does the scarf look like this ?

Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Corvo:

quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
I believe our Ken has been known to mix cassock-alb with blue scarf.
That's what we do here. The vicar usually grumbles about it when he is in blue of Mary's colour and the Reader looks like a concelebrant.

I do not know why the vicar cannot be cornered in an alleyway and reminded that rose is Our Lady's colour in England, with the exception of a few RC outlets which enjoy the Spanish privilege of blue. While it might take a few blows to persuade him or her of the truth of this, it is surely better spiritually to be freed of a sentiment of resentment toward the reader.

If the reader only has an alb and cannot obtain or afford a cassock and surplice, would it be better for them to wear their alb/cassock-alb ungirdled and unamiced and unapparelled?

Posted by ken (# 2460) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
I believe our Ken has been known to mix cassock-alb with blue scarf.

Our vicar now wears a cassock-alb. When I dress up its black cassock and white surplice. With the scarf of course. A big baggy surplice with big baggy sleeves and a hem down by my ankles. Because I am a big baggy sort of bloke and would look even sillier in a little surplice.

Posted by Mr. Rob (# 5823) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:

quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Rob:
...I've heard here of English lay readers wearing those awful blue tippets ...

What do Readers wear in the US then? Or doesn't it have them?

The 2009 edition of The Episcopal Church Canons, Title III, Canon 4. Of Licensed Ministries, has a long list of different licensed, lay ministries which can be performed. Among such is "Worship Leader." So the old term "lay reader" or "licensed reader" is no longer officially found or used in the USA national canons.

No mention in the national canons has ever been given of any particular vesture for these licensed lay functionaries. Black cassock and surplice have always been normally used by the licensed worship leader. The C of E blue reader's tippet has never been adopted by readers in the USA. Tales you may hear by Shipmates of allowed tippet use by licensed readers in the USA are, in my experience, quite exceptional and possibly apocryphal. Most Episcopalians would tend to view the use of a tippet, especially paired with an academic hood, as quite uppity for readers, to say the least.
*

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
If the reader only has an alb and cannot obtain or afford a cassock and surplice, would it be better for them to wear their alb/cassock-alb ungirdled and unamiced and unapparelled?

Scarves look silly on proper albs, with or without apparrels. I wear mine with a cassockalb for the eucharist, with surplice and hood for offices.

As for what is affordable, we are expected to wear surplices and scarves in the cathedral - they wouldn't let us in with albs (or hoods if it is a sacramental service).

Posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras (# 11274) on :

Here are guidelines advocated by the US-based Society of St Vincent, the traditional guild for servers at the altar. Sorry the pdf was awkwardly posted turned sideways, but the bit on readers' vesture isn't very lengthy.

Posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras (# 11274) on :

Diocese of Mississippi Guidelines for lay worship leaders licensed at the diocesan level. The black tippet is authorised for them and they are (horrors) to ornament the tippet with the crest of the diocese on the upper left side (over the heart).

I'm sure further searching would turn up more North American examples.

Posted by Corvo (# 15220) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
rose is Our Lady's colour in England, with the exception of a few RC outlets which enjoy the Spanish privilege of blue.

If the reader only has an alb and cannot obtain or afford a cassock and surplice, would it be better for them to wear their alb/cassock-alb ungirdled and unamiced and unapparelled?

I didn't know that about Rose (rather than white) our Lady's colour in England. We have a pale blue set going back to the opening of the church a century ago and a more recent set as the originals were getting delicate.

The Church provides the albs. It's only on the rare occasions that the blue is worn that the Reader's scarf looks like a concelebrant's stole.

Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Corvo:

quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
rose is Our Lady's colour in England, with the exception of a few RC outlets which enjoy the Spanish privilege of blue.

I didn't know that about Rose (rather than white) our Lady's colour in England. We have a pale blue set going back to the opening of the church a century ago and a more recent set as the originals were getting delicate.

Rose? Really? Since when? It was never used in Sarum or any of the other Uses as far as I recall, and it's only Roman Catholic use would be of Laetare and Gaudete.

Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :

I must look at eating crow, if not perhaps actually ordering it. I heard this put forth at a liturgical conference some years ago and had distinct a recollection of seeing it in S Percy's work. However, I cannot find the reference or, indeed, anything at all other than a late mediaeval devotional poem and a line in one of Frederick Rolfe's less salubrious works.

There are references to white as Our Lady's colour in places not covered by the Spanish privilege. However, upon reflection, I like the idea of rose as a colour for feasts of the BVM and anyone introducing it into their customary might thank me for the suggestion.

Posted by Bwnni (# 17342) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Corvo:
The Church provides the albs. It's only on the rare occasions that the blue is worn that the Reader's scarf looks like a concelebrant's stole. [/QB]

Something that makes me shudder... why do some 'Lay Readers'/'Readers'/'LLMs' etc. always wear their blue scarf when assisting at the Eucharist? If it's the tradition to celebrate in surplice and scarf, then I couldn't really have an objection: but seeing a priest wearing the chasuble, a deacon wearing stole (and sometimes dalmatic) being assisted by a lay minister in choir dress doesn't make sense to me. Is there some Reader's Council/Guild rule that states that the Blue Scarf must always be worn? Would be interested to know how prevalent the practice is and how 'kosher' it is.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

Each diocese has its own regs. about blue scarves etc.

This diocese changed its policy AFTER the parish purchased an alb for me (I already had cassock, cotta, surplice etc.) So if I don't wear it, I am sort of snubbing the givers here.

Also, everyone else in the sanctuary wears albs - so why should i be different and stand out?

As for deacons and stuff, if we have a priest and a deacon robed up in chasuble and dalmatic, (rare occasion owing to staffing problems) then i wear a tunicle. Sorted.

Posted by Bwnni (# 17342) on :

It's the lack of uniformity that winds me up. Following the leader r.e. vesture is a good idea. Wish there could be some sort of provincial/national agreement on it; however, I think there are more pressing matters for the CofE at the moment.

Posted by ken (# 2460) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Bwnni:
It's the lack of uniformity that winds me up.

Why?

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

Quite.

This is the C of E......we don't do uniformity.

Ian J.

Posted by +Chad (# 5645) on :

I wear an adorned tippett on the appropriate occasions.

On Civic/Military occasions I wear either my old Chaplain's tippett with it RAChD badges on each end, or, as Chaplain to the Royal British Legion here, my tippett with the RBL badges on each end. Both have medal ribbons sewn on, and on occasions when medals are worn, so do I.

It's permitted, it's customary.

I really don't see the problem. [Confused]

Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :

At Remembrance Day or similarly civic services, I have often seen clergy wear their medals and ribbons on their tippets and scarves. As Chad says, it is expected. I once saw a chaplain captain's bars embroidered, which I thought was highly inappropriate and I hope that his archdeacon would have a word with him.

Posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras (# 11274) on :

quote:
Originally posted by +Chad:
I wear an adorned tippett on the appropriate occasions.

On Civic/Military occasions I wear either my old Chaplain's tippett with it RAChD badges on each end, or, as Chaplain to the Royal British Legion here, my tippett with the RBL badges on each end. Both have medal ribbons sewn on, and on occasions when medals are worn, so do I.

It's permitted, it's customary.

I really don't see the problem.

I think it's one thing so to do in Britain and another in the US. In the case of the latter, you occasionally (rarely, but sometimes)see TEC clergy wearing military service ribbons on their tippet on occasions like 4th of July (a prayerbook National Day of observance in our BCP). I find it rather grotesque, especially in a civilian parish church context. It's introducing a militaristic, personalised and nationalistic element where it doesn't belong IMO. I'm willing to make an exception for chaplains to American war veterans organisations or active duty military chaplains, but it certainly has no place in a normal parochial context IMO.

Posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras (# 11274) on :

Sorry - something strange happened when I was trying to edit that last post.

[deleted mis-edited post - looks like you inadvertently pressed the quote button instead of the edit button: it's easily done]

[ 18. September 2012, 16:51: Message edited by: seasick ]

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
... you occasionally (rarely, but sometimes)see TEC clergy wearing military service ribbons on their tippet on occasions like 4th of July (a prayerbook National Day of observance in our BCP)...

Surely any kind of adornment is out of place on what is, presumably, a Day of Fasting and Repentance for the National Sin of Rebellion against Lawful (and indeed Consecrated) Authority?
[Biased]

[ 18. September 2012, 16:27: Message edited by: Albertus ]

Posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras (# 11274) on :

It will be difficult to get back on topic after that observation.

Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
It will be difficult to get back on topic after that observation.

Possibly, but we'd be much obliged if people could try!

dj_ordinaire, Eccles host

Posted by Mr. Rob (# 5823) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:

Surely any kind of adornment is out of place on what is, presumably, a Day of Fasting and Repentance for the National Sin of Rebellion against Lawful (and indeed Consecrated) Authority?

That's only true about rebellion, and it's only counted as sin, if the Consecrated Authority wins. As I recall, King George III had some considerable difficulty with the final facts of the rebellion as presented to him.

First US Ambassdor John Adams presents his credentials
*

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

Oh, now you're just teasing...
But yes, let's get back to tippets.

Posted by +Chad (# 5645) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:

quote:
Originally posted by +Chad:
.....On Civic/Military occasions I wear either my old Chaplain's tippett with it RAChD badges on each end, or, as Chaplain to the Royal British Legion here, my tippett with the RBL badges on each end. Both have medal ribbons sewn on, and on occasions when medals are worn, so do I.

I think it's one thing so to do in Britain and another in the US.....I find it rather grotesque, especially in a civilian parish church context. It's introducing a militaristic, personalised and nationalistic element where it doesn't belong IMO. I'm willing to make an exception for chaplains to American war veterans organisations or active duty military chaplains, but it certainly has no place in a normal parochial context IMO.

What about Civic/Military services in a Parish Church. As well as being a Parish Church we are also the Town Centre 'Civic' church, so some of these services take place within the walls.

Posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras (# 11274) on :

quote:
Originally posted by +Chad:

quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:

quote:
Originally posted by +Chad:
.....On Civic/Military occasions I wear either my old Chaplain's tippett with it RAChD badges on each end, or, as Chaplain to the Royal British Legion here, my tippett with the RBL badges on each end. Both have medal ribbons sewn on, and on occasions when medals are worn, so do I.

I think it's one thing so to do in Britain and another in the US.....I find it rather grotesque, especially in a civilian parish church context. It's introducing a militaristic, personalised and nationalistic element where it doesn't belong IMO. I'm willing to make an exception for chaplains to American war veterans organisations or active duty military chaplains, but it certainly has no place in a normal parochial context IMO.
What about Civic/Military services in a Parish Church. As well as being a Parish Church we are also the Town Centre 'Civic' church, so some of these services take place within the walls.

I'd rather not see that in TEC parish churches (or cathedrals for that matter). I can't comment on the situation in respect to the English Erastian Dept of Christian Religion.

Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
I'd rather not see that in TEC parish churches (or cathedrals for that matter). I can't comment on the situation in respect to the English Erastian Dept of Christian Religion.

Keep it cool, Lietuvos - no need to make sweeping judgements about Erastian heresy with regards to other people's traditions, even if you don't approve of them.

dj_ordinaire, Eccles host

Posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras (# 11274) on :

To clarify in less flippant terms, ISTM that there are certain functions that may be suitable for a Church-as-by-law-established, indeed one whose Supreme Governour is HM the Queen, that are not really appropriate to my own Anglican province, given the absence of the State connexion.

Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on :

Hmm. Part of me agrees with you. But, at the same time, what if +Chad invited a non-conformist Forces chaplain to the same service. If this chaplain was inclined to wear a tippet, as some might, would it be wrong to adorn it in the same way?

(posting as a Shipmate this time!)

Posted by Vaticanchic (# 13869) on :

Worth bearing in mind that tippets & Anglican "convocation habit" in general is not sacramental or even liturgical. In the UK, anyway, it's a formal dress outfit for civil/legal occasions & so it's personal. Eucharistic vestments, etc - that's where you're "putting on Christ".

Posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras (# 11274) on :

I would think most of us view cassock, surplice and tippet to primarily constitute choir habit for officiating the daily offices and other non-Eucharistic pastoral functions, and only coincidentally as convocation or court dress (in which case it still really isn't personal but rather a type of uniform).

Posted by ChrisHuriwai (# 17111) on :

I have the crest of the Bishopric I belong to on my Tippet, as do many other clergy. It has become a bit of a tradition here...not too over the top though. That said, I have seen some tippets that more resemble a mural than clerical garb.

Posted by sebby (# 15147) on :

I have posted on this before, but it is quite customary - indeed mandatory - for British Army chaplains to wear the RAChD badge on their black scarves together with medal ribbons. On certain days medals are worn over the ribbons.

This is true for all chaplains of any denomination. Roman Catholic chaplains wear a purple scarf with badges and medal ribbons the same way.

On Ops (and most visibily in Camp Bastion), all chaplains wear their scarves over combat dress (just uniform no cassock etc). This is required. With choir dress the black scarf with badges (which tend to be embroidered onto the scarf rather than sewn on) is worn with cassock and surplice. Free church chaplains wear it with cassock and gown.

The present Chaplain General is a baptist minister and wears a red cassock (as a Queen's Honorary Chaplain) black gown, bands and hood. His scarf has his QHC badge, medal ribbons, and RAChD badges. The Deputy Chaplain General happens to be a Northern Irish Presbyterian, and dresses the same as the CG.

Although the tippet (black scarf) looks very elegant when totally unadorned it is a long standing custom for military chaplains to wear theirs thus.

In civilian life I have seen retired chaplains do the same. Many happen to hold chaplaincies (to BLESMA; to the RBL; the Burma Star Association and so on). I have seen a priest assisting here with a scarf and his Royal Australian Air Force badges on from WW2.

The vicar wore a scarf unadorned with badges; but he always proudly wore his Military Cross (MC) gained for conspicuous gallantry on the Somme in WW1.

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

Good for him.
I don't think ++Robert Runcie routinely wore medals or ribbons, but I imagine he must have done on some occasions. Does anyone have any information about this?

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