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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Thank you for the Music
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
What do you think about music during the service?
Is it better to have no music than an organist or pianist who doesn't play very well?
Is it better to have no music than to play a cd and sing hymns along to it, if there's no musician available?
Can anyone recommend any specific cd's?
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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Mama Thomas
Shipmate
# 10170
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Posted
Sing a joyful song. So many congregations are used to dry services with no music. I have seen canned music and it sucks. I would suppose the vast majority of Christians throughout time and space sang a cappella.
I've seen four or five old ladies singing a cappela. I've seen one and two people chanting the office.
Singing adds a special dimension that just cannot be obtained by merely reading.
It may not always be possible at first, but surely it is a desireable goal to return to.
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All hearts are open, all desires known
Posts: 3742 | From: Somewhere far away | Registered: Aug 2005
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Since quite a lot of ecclesial communities, ranging from Orthodoxy to even the Church of Scotland, yet alone the others, on some islands, don't use instruments at all, sing unaccompanied as Mama Thomas says.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
What do you think about music during the service?
Its wonderful! Often the best bit.
quote:
Is it better to have no music than an organist or pianist who doesn't play very well?
No. God the Holy Spirit has given the congregation the gifts it needs to worship God. If God wants you to play music there will be someone who can play music.
quote:
Is it better to have no music than to play a cd and sing hymns along to it, if there's no musician available?
Better to sing unaccompanied than mess around with recordings.
quote:
Can anyone recommend any specific cd's?
No, because they are a Really Bad Idea!
The first thing about music in church is to sing. Everyone sing, this is worship, not a performance. If you have musical instruments and if it helps the singing, then play them. But they are an optional extra, the spice, not the food itself.
[ 16. September 2012, 14:19: Message edited by: ken ]
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Better to sing unaccompanied than mess around with recordings.
quote:
[/QB]
Quite right. After all, as you'll know that fine traditional anthem Nemo nos amat, non curamus is pretty much always sung unaccompanied, isn't it? ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
Thank you. So far, all for singing unaccompanied. If no-one is able to pitch it without music, that may surely be as painful as trying to sing along to a poor piano player?
Joyful singing needs to be led by someone so that it's joyful, doesn't it? I wonder sometimes whether the musicians called to accompany the singing are listening, as they don't turn up.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
In our hospital chapel, I nearly always have a hymn if there are more than three of us. I don't really like CD accompaniment, but I use it because I know most people aren't confident singers. I think if I was in a parish church with a regular congregation, I'd tend to encourage them to sing unaccompanied. It only takes one or two people who can carry a tune to give the others the confidence to join in.
In my parish days, at weekday offices we'd sing the office hymn, Salve Regina and sometimes the Lord's prayer even if there were only two of us. (In fact, sometimes if there was only one of me!) I think singing is intrinsic to liturgy.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
Yes. I'm not really musical but singing (even at small weekday offices) lifts the worship. Unaccompanied is best and nearly always possible, but I think CDs (or other technology) are fine for reflective music as e.g. a background to communion. Organs are all right in cathedrals and churches with big congregations but it's rare to find an organist sensitive enough to support and not drown out hesitant singers.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
Thank you. So far, all for singing unaccompanied. If no-one is able to pitch it without music, that may surely be as painful as trying to sing along to a poor piano player?
Tuning forks cost £6.50 or thereabouts. Our services are music-intensive, and with entirely unaccompanied singing, that is how we do it. Just whack it on your head and away you go.
I'm sure it's an entirely innocent misuse but I'm not sure about the possible impliction that singing is not music unless it has instrumental accompaniment.
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
Even better.
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Scrumpmeister:
Just whack it on your head and away you go.
I'm sure it's an entirely innocent misuse
Of your head?
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by The Scrumpmeister:
Just whack it on your head and away you go.
I'm sure it's an entirely innocent misuse
Of your head?
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
One of our choir desks is wrought iron and the other is chipboard with some sort of veneer. Neither is suitable for hitting a tuning fork against as it would make a loud noise. By the time I thought of getting one of the little rubber things, I'd come to realise that my head lent itself very well to the purpose.
For those who prefer something with less contact, there's this. (The previous app to which I linked is rubbish. I am ashamed.)
[ 16. September 2012, 21:26: Message edited by: The Scrumpmeister ]
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
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seasick
...over the edge
# 48
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Posted
I generally hit tuning forks on my hand or wrist. But I'm sure heads are good too... ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
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We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
Posts: 5769 | From: A world of my own | Registered: May 2001
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seasick:
I generally hit tuning forks on my hand or wrist.
It's a pity we can't post polls anymore. We could have found out which body parts are most popular for pitching church singing.
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
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seasick
...over the edge
# 48
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Posted
And once again I'm thankful for the wisdom of the Ship's policies...
Anyway, on the topic of the OP... Live music is best. I use CDs in some places I preach because they are the established custom there and I'm also a big fan of unaccompanied singing. I was presiding at the Eucharist for the meeting of the Local Preachers in our circuit last week and we sang unaccompanied for that. The church had quite a good acoustic and it sounded beautiful. Someone commented afterwards that it felt almost monastic.
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We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
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Pre-cambrian
Shipmate
# 2055
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Posted
A tuning fork still requires the ability to get from the note it gives to the note you want. On the other hand if you have anyone vaguely young in the congregation they will have a phone thingy that will buzz whatever note you want.
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"We cannot leave the appointment of Bishops to the Holy Ghost, because no one is confident that the Holy Ghost would understand what makes a good Church of England bishop."
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pre-cambrian:
A tuning fork still requires the ability to get from the note it gives to the note you want.
That's true. The music at my parish is set mostly in F major. For some reason, F tuning forks seem difficult to come by but an A fork works just as well. I can't imagine anybody who is able to sing to a basic level, even if not musically trained, being unable to go down a third. They might not know what that terminology means but will know exactly what you're talking about after a ten-second explanation and demonstration.
I think people can be afraid of music and make it more difficult than it needs to be. For an example, just look at the facial expressions of an otherwise good parish choir when presented with western plainsong presented in traditional notation. It actually follows the same basic principles as what they are accustomed to but in a much simpler way, but I have known experienced choristers to go into a panic and refuse to try.
A few of our pieces are in G major with one or two in C. Altogether, we have tuning forks in C, F, G, and A, which cover all of our Sunday morning needs. Just get what is most commonly used at your church.
quote:
On the other hand if you have anyone vaguely young in the congregation they will have a phone thingy that will buzz whatever note you want.
The second of those two apps to which I linked earlier does exactly that. It seems very good, actually. I might start using that instead.
[ 17. September 2012, 21:20: Message edited by: The Scrumpmeister ]
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
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Gill H
Shipmate
# 68
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Posted
I have a piano app on my phone. Useful for giving a starting note.
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*sigh* We can’t all be Alan Cresswell.
- Lyda Rose
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bib
Shipmate
# 13074
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Posted
Well, we don't use cds for prayer in church rather than someone speaking in person. Why would anyone suggest removing worship provided by the human voice in singing? I tend to find that with cds people join in even less. Music in worship is a vital part of praising God and for me is a significant part of my personal worship especially singing in the choir. However, many people seem to be frightened and too embarrassed to attempt singing - I don't understand why as most people can sing. Unfortunately many of the modern songs in church aren't suited to congregational singing whereas the traditional hymns are much more user friendly.
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"My Lord, my Life, my Way, my End, accept the praise I bring"
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
Wouldn't a pitch pipe be better than a tuning fork? A pitch pipe can start at any key. They do have pitch pipe apps for smartphones.
[ 18. September 2012, 03:37: Message edited by: Gramps49 ]
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by bib:
However, many people seem to be frightened and too embarrassed to attempt singing - I don't understand why as most people can sing.
I cannot speak for all cases but I have had some experience of this with a number of people, the truth is that they have good singing voices but their reluctance to sing is due to any of a number of factors, including but not limited to:
- Lack of confidence, which may be character trait or may be related to the other factors.
- Never having been taught how to use their singing voice.
- Never having sung publicly or with others before, so being held back by a debilitating shyness.
- Lingering stigma that they associate with choral singing from schooldays, where belonging to the school choir would have been accompanied by ridicule from the groups with which they associated.
- Genuine inability to "listen and repeat". I cannot understand this but can relate to it. I cannot draw. The best that I can muster up is a stick-man, and even that looks unhealthy most of the time. Back when I cared about this, oeople for whom this comes naturally and whom I asked for help would say to me, 'Just draw what you see', as though this were the most obvious thing in the world. To me, this wasn't obvious. What was obvious is that I see with my eye, and that in order to reproduce this vision with an implement held in my hand, there must be some active method that had to be employed, and it is this that I was hoping for them to explain to me. Yet they would have no idea what I was talking about. I have come to the conclusion that this ability must stem from a involuntary function that takes place in some people central nervous system, and which is weaker in my own. Perhaps being able to listen to a sound and repeat it, or listen to other surrounding sounds and fit in with them, requires a similar function with which some people struggle.
I think that most of these are not insurmountable but first it requires convincing the person to trust you and to be willing to get past their conviction of "I can't sing".
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
Wouldn't a pitch pipe be better than a tuning fork? A pitch pipe can start at any key. They do have pitch pipe apps for smartphones.
I'm not sure a pitch pipe sound would be welcomed in the middle of the service.
At least the app would have the benefit of volume control, in which case the Cleartune one linked above (for which there is an alternative version for Apple slaves) would do just as you suggest.
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
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*Leon*
Shipmate
# 3377
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Scrumpmeister:
quote:
Originally posted by bib:
However, many people seem to be frightened and too embarrassed to attempt singing - I don't understand why as most people can sing.
I cannot speak for all cases but I have had some experience of this with a number of people, the truth is that they have good singing voices but their reluctance to sing is due to any of a number of factors, including but not limited to:
[Long and very good list of reasons why people think they can't sing]
This thread is very interesting to me. A church I know of is about to face a bit of a challenge. They're very small (can't afford to pay an organist or pianist), and one of the volunteer pianists feels he's getting too old to play well. (he's probably right about this). When this happens, it won't be possible for there to be a pianist every week. No-one sings very audibly at the moment, and there's no-one obvious to blackmail into becoming a cantor.
CDs are being talked about as the obvious solution to the problem of not having a pianist, but I wonder if they might actually be a disaster. (I fear a said service where everyone stops to listen to a recorded piece of boring organ music every now and then) I agree with all the fans of unaccompanied music on this thread, and agree that a lot of people are better at singing than they think, but I wonder how to actually force a critical mass of the congregation to realize this. I'd been thinking about ways of making a said service more interesting and dignified, but I haven't really worked out what I mean by that yet.
Any thoughts?
Posts: 831 | From: london | Registered: Oct 2002
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Niminypiminy
Shipmate
# 15489
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Posted
I go to a church which routinely uses CDs to sing along to. From time to time, I've managed to get us singing something unaccompanied, but I've all but given up with it because the inertia on the incumbent's part is too strong -- even though people enjoyed doing it, and felt more drawn into the song and involved in the service. In my view the drawbacks of singing with CDs are:
1. People do not sing, they listen.
2. If they are singing, they don't sing for themselves, they do a form of karaoke.
3. If what they are singing along to is a worship song, often these are sung really badly in the first place (a vague approximation of the note is reached, so you don't really know what note you are singing), and so are hard to sing along to.
4. If they are singing along to a worship song, and the lead singer is a tenor (as they often are), the range will be awkward for nearly everyone else.
5. If it is a recording of a traditional hymn sung by a choir, the descant in the final verse will confuse everyone because it will be louder than the main tune.
Singing unaccompanied does demand that you've got enough welly to get up and persuade people to do it. Often CDs are an easier option. But after years of them, I do think that if you can avoid them in the first place, do so.
[ 18. September 2012, 11:11: Message edited by: Niminypiminy ]
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Lives of the Saints: songs by The Unequal Struggle
http://www.theunequalstruggle.com/
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Rosa Gallica officinalis
Shipmate
# 3886
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Posted
When our keyboard players moved away we bought some 'no-organist no problem' type CDs - intended for congregations to sing along to. The best thing about the experience was that a few people within our congregation who were unsure of their abilities, who played some unusual instruments to accompany traditional hymn singing, volunteered to offer their time and talent, because they thought it couldn't be any worse. We ended up with a music group of a cello, oboe, recorder and occasional guitar and/or mandolin, depending on who was available, and I think the quality of our singing improved at the same time. There was something very precious about offering our own community's musical worship to God, rather than buying in accompaniment.
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Come for tea, come for tea, my people.
Posts: 874 | From: The Hemlock Hideout | Registered: Jan 2003
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Scrumpmeister:
I can't imagine anybody who is able to sing to a basic level, even if not musically trained, being unable to go down a third.
![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
I would doubt if five out of our congregation of over a hundred could do that!
No point in reviving old rants, but I'm a bad enough singer that I find it less difficult to match my voice to a sound more like my voice, such as an organ, or someone else singing in my range, than I do to one less like my voice, such as the piano, or somone singing out of my range. To listen to a note and then sing a different one would be almost impossible for me. Of course I can sing a different note - but singing the right one would be unlikely..
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
Some people have been kind enough to say I'm not a bad singer. But I have the same problem as ken in picking up a note (even the same one) from something else. I wouldn't know what a third was if I fell over one.
The musical accompaniment where I worship is normally provided by a couple of violins and a guitar. Occasionally supplemented by a keyboard and/or harp. For a small congregation it is much less overwhelming than an organ and more prayerful (IMHO) than a piano. And unlike guitars alone, the instruments are suited to accompanying traditional hymns as well as modern worship songs.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
It's good to see how many perceive the drawbacks of using recordings in the liturgy, especially recorded or automated leadership of singing. Good accompanists are almost slaves to soloists: extremely sensitive in adapting everything they do supportively for an ensemble. With congregational accompaniment, of course the player(s) must lead more than follow, but still it's definitely a two-way street. How they play depends to some extent on what they hear, as well as on various factors influencing the mood. No way can the canned tinkling of any automoton make these real-time adjustments.
The instrumental alternatives to the organ that Rosa and Angloid report sound delightful, at least if the congregation is fairly small and intimate. It is important to have a melody instrument. Guitar alone can hardly serve this function, but violins + guitar could be beautiful.
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
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ecumaniac
Ship's whipping girl
# 376
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Posted
If you fill the void with CDs, then perhaps the developing/budding musicians in the woodwork won't come out to play, as there is no perceived need.
I know I got my start as an accompanist by doing hymns (poorly!!!) at church. I got competent soon enough, but thanks to my very tolerant congregation!
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it's a secret club for people with a knitting addiction, hiding under the cloak of BDSM - Catrine
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
Thank you all for the very helpful replies.
As one of those who wonders how people translate a note from an instrument into a human note, it's been so good to see that I'm not alone, and that there may be ways around it.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
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Graven Image
Shipmate
# 8755
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Posted
My one suggestion as someone who does not sing well, is start out with just 4-5 simple pieces of music that everyone knows and use them over and over until confidence is build. After all we say the Lord's Prayer each week why not re-sing the same music for a while then slowly introduce other music, as people become use to singing in church.
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
Also, people sing much more enthusiastically when they are singing their favorite hymns.
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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Wm Dewy
Shipmate
# 16712
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Posted
Thanks for this thread and for the comments about music in church.
Everybody can sing. The only people who cannot sing are the people who aren’t willing. Shame on the organists and choirmasters who have told children they can’t sing. That is the only thing some people “learn” in church or Sunday school.
Unaccompanied singing is best. Paul and Silas would have died in prison if they had an organ.
If you usually sing one or two familiar songs, the congregation will come to recognize that it can sing. It is a very good idea to use a particular hymn for a whole liturgical season so that people may become accustomed to it. The same is true for the Mass setting. It is also helpful to give the people the words and music for the hymns and service music. When I visit a congregation and am given neither, I feel quite alienated if not unwelcome.
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"And harmoniums and barrel - organs be miserable--what shall I call 'em ? - miserable machines for such a divine thing as music!"
Posts: 216 | From: Indiana USA | Registered: Oct 2011
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chive
Ship's nude
# 208
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Posted
I prefer a said mass with no hymns. I find silence much more conducive to worship then singing which I find a distraction. Part of that is that I know next to no hymns because I wasn't brought up with them but mostly I just find silence helpful.
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'Edward was the kind of man who thought there was no such thing as a lesbian, just a woman who hadn't done one-to-one Bible study with him.' Catherine Fox, Love to the Lost
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by The Scrumpmeister:
I can't imagine anybody who is able to sing to a basic level, even if not musically trained, being unable to go down a third.
I would doubt if five out of our congregation of over a hundred could do that!
Hmmm...
It would be incredibly presumptuous of me to contradict you, Ken: you know your parish and I don't. However, let me try this little musical demonstration to show why what you say is very, very difficult to come to terms with.
Most modern western music has as its basis scales of notes in groups of eight. I imagine anybody who has ever seen "The Sound of Music" will be familiar with this as a concept, (Doh, a deer, a female deer... &c.), even if they don't know the theory behind it or the terminology used to describe it. There are other types of scales of different intervals (some eastern forms of music and some types of plainsong, &c.), but they are seldom found in modern western church or the various types of music commonly found in our part of the world.
This scale of eight notes is called an octave. It has a base note after which the scale is named, then goes up in steps until it reaches the eighth note, which corresponds to the base note, but is an octave higher, (Doh, Re, Mi, Fah, Soh, La, Ti, Doh, with Doh being both the base note and the eighth note).
Here, for example, is the scale of F major, which is the key I cited earlier in the thread. The base note (Doh), in this instance, is F, then the scale goes up until it reaches the eighth note, which is also F. You should be able to hear that these are both the "same" note. These two Fs are said to be an eighth (octave) apart.
Narrowing this down a little, the first (base note), third, and fifth notes of any major octave will harmonise with each other to form what is called a chord. You can hear the chord of F major here, again with the base note being F, then with A a third above that, and C a third above that.
The references to an eighth, a third, and so forth, simply indicate the number of notes from one note to the other, including the starting note in the counting.
Narrowing it down even further, then, you can hear how those first five notes of the octave are used in the children's song, Three Blind Mice, but let us focus just in the first three notes. The words "three blind mice" are sung to the notes A, G, F, respectively, and here we have the third that I referred to earlier in the thread, where I said I could not imagine most people who can sing to a basic level not being able to go down a third from A to F.
If the estimate that you have given is about accurate, Ken, what we are being asked to believe is that no more than five members of your congregation of over one hundred, if given the starting note, could sing the first three notes of "Three Blind Mice" to work out the third note.
I do not want to be like some of my classmates and high school art teacher who refused to believe that a certain level of ability that seemed natural to them didn't come so easily to everybody but this is one of the most basic elements of music, and, allowing for particular types of disability, I seriously doubt that such a high percentage of people are incapable of doing this. It seems to me to be much more likely that, for one reason or another, some people have succumbed to a conviction that they cannot, and this then affects the degree of their participation. This will not be true of everybody, of course, but I'm sure most congregations have significantly more than 5% basic musical ability, much of which is perhaps untapped.
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Wm Dewy:
It is also helpful to give the people the words and music for the hymns and service music. When I visit a congregation and am given neither, I feel quite alienated if not unwelcome.
It feels like I'm not "part of the club" if I don't have a way to join in with the music. Displaying words on a projector to a contemporary song I've never heard before does absolutely nothing for me. However, if you give me the music, I can read it and I will sing it, helping to add more volume and oomph to the assembly.
(Of course, perhaps some of these places have heard horror stories about my singing and chosen to cut me out.)
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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Vulpior
Foxier than Thou
# 12744
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Posted
I've used CDs with small congregations when their normal organist was away. The CDs were recorded using a cathedral organ with no singing, specifically to be used in such circumstances. They were sufficient for that environment, although I remember having trouble with one particular tune where the melody line did not stand out towards the end of the verse.
I've also used recorded Mag, Nunc and anthem when leading an occasional midweek 1662 evensong.
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I've started blogging. I don't promise you'll find anything to interest you at uncleconrad
Posts: 946 | From: Mount Fairy, NSW | Registered: Jun 2007
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
(BTW, are you people still talking literal CD's? In our church we don't play 'canned' music often, but if we do, they connect an iPad to the speakers or something like that.)
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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*Leon*
Shipmate
# 3377
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
(BTW, are you people still talking literal CD's? In our church we don't play 'canned' music often, but if we do, they connect an iPad to the speakers or something like that.)
Assuming one respects copyright, it might make sense to have a pile of literal CDs gathering dust in the vestry, even if they've all been ripped onto the iPod and there's no CD player in the building.
If the church I was referring to goes for 'CDs', I intend to do some research on whether iPods are considered confusingly newfangled; it might be that (given a fairly elderly congregation) more people would be prepared to work the system if it uses literal CDs. Of course, I'll make sure that it's easy for youngsters like me to plug in their more modern gadgets.
Posts: 831 | From: london | Registered: Oct 2002
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
*Leon*: Assuming one respects copyright, it might make sense to have a pile of literal CDs gathering dust in the vestry, even if they've all been ripped onto the iPod and there's no CD player in the building.
I guess you're right. In the church my parents go to, the national church usually has a 'Lent Project' or an 'Advent Project' for children each year. Local churches can download material from the national church website, including songs that were especially composed for this Project. The children then sing in church accompanied by these mp3 files during those weeks.
I'm not directly involved, so I don't know if these downloads have to be paid for, but I'm sure that copyright matters are cleared.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
It can be very moving at times to listen to music rather than join in. If the choir is not good enough, then a CD of a good choir singing very atmospheric music can aid contemplation.
I tend to find that the Eucharist is very wordy without some of the liturgy being sung. It's very helpful to have the melody line written out for the congregation to sing along, and to have a familiar setting most weeks so that people feel confident.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Pre-cambrian
Shipmate
# 2055
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Scrumpmeister:
If the estimate that you have given is about accurate, Ken, what we are being asked to believe is that no more than five members of your congregation of over one hundred, if given the starting note, could sing the first three notes of "Three Blind Mice" to work out the third note.
I suspect that a higher proportion of the congregation could indeed sing the third note of Three Blind Mice if they were given the first note (and knew the tune in the first place).
But I don't think that was the point ken (or leo) was really making which would be more akin to a scenario of being given an A and then told to sing Three Blind Mice starting on an F.
So getting back to tuning forks, unless you have a range of forks the more remote a song's key is from the note of the fork the greater the challenge. Even an experienced cantor will need to concentrate if they have to start off in E flat using an A fork. I have never been one for Tonic sol-fa but I suspect it is highly dependent on someone being there who can ensure that doh is properly rooted in the first place.
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"We cannot leave the appointment of Bishops to the Holy Ghost, because no one is confident that the Holy Ghost would understand what makes a good Church of England bishop."
Posts: 2314 | From: Croydon | Registered: Dec 2001
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pre-cambrian:
I suspect that a higher proportion of the congregation could indeed sing the third note of Three Blind Mice if they were given the first note (and knew the tune in the first place).
But I don't think that was the point ken (or leo) was really making which would be more akin to a scenario of being given an A and then told to sing Three Blind Mice starting on an F.
Yes! Exactly!
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pre-cambrian:
quote:
Originally posted by The Scrumpmeister:
If the estimate that you have given is about accurate, Ken, what we are being asked to believe is that no more than five members of your congregation of over one hundred, if given the starting note, could sing the first three notes of "Three Blind Mice" to work out the third note.
I suspect that a higher proportion of the congregation could indeed sing the third note of Three Blind Mice if they were given the first note (and knew the tune in the first place).
But I don't think that was the point ken (or leo) was really making which would be more akin to a scenario of being given an A and then told to sing Three Blind Mice starting on an F.
I think you may have missed my point. Three Blind Mice doesn't represent the song being sung: it is just an example I chose to illustrate what it is to go down a third, which ken thought of as being difficult. I was just illustrating how simple it is to work out an F after having been given the A, in response to your original point. If ken read that as meaning transposing to a different key, then it seems he may have misread my original response to you, and we have been talking at cross purposes since then.
[ 20. September 2012, 18:12: Message edited by: The Scrumpmeister ]
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Scrumpmeister:
quote:
Originally posted by Pre-cambrian:
quote:
Originally posted by The Scrumpmeister:
If the estimate that you have given is about accurate, Ken, what we are being asked to believe is that no more than five members of your congregation of over one hundred, if given the starting note, could sing the first three notes of "Three Blind Mice" to work out the third note.
I suspect that a higher proportion of the congregation could indeed sing the third note of Three Blind Mice if they were given the first note (and knew the tune in the first place).
But I don't think that was the point ken (or leo) was really making which would be more akin to a scenario of being given an A and then told to sing Three Blind Mice starting on an F.
I think you may have missed my point. Three Blind Mice doesn't represent the song being sung: it is just an example I chose to illustrate what it is to go down a third, which ken thought of as being difficult. I was just illustrating how simple it is to work out an F after having been given the A, in response to your original point. If ken read that as meaning transposing to a different key, then it seems he may have misread my original response to you, and we have been talking at cross purposes since then.
Pre-cambrian and ken, please forgive me.
Pre-cambrian, it is I who misread your post.
This:
quote:
...the point ken (or leo) was really making which would be more akin to a scenario of being given an A and then told to sing Three Blind Mice starting on an F.
Yes, that is exactly what I was talking about. If you need to start a hymn on F and all you have is a tuning fork in A, you go down a third and you have your starting note of F.
I know I must seem like a dog with a bone here, and I ask you to bear with me. I'm genuinely trying to understand because I do sometimes find myself confronted with the reality of people who tell me they can't do things when it comes to singing, and it might actually help me to understand now that I have people here on the Ship who are saying similar things to me. If a higher proportion then 5% could indeed work out that F if given an A, then what would be the difficulty in then starting a song or hymn on that note of F that they have just worked out and have in their head? How is having a note in their head from having worked it out themselves any different from having a note in their head because they have been given that specific note?
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
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Gracious rebel
Rainbow warrior
# 3523
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Posted
I think possibly both lots are talking past each other.
Ken and others have said how hearing a note doesn't mean they can reproduce it, unless it has a similar timbre (I think that is the word) to their own voice. So I can't see how a tuning fork would help in that case even if there wasn't the need to work out a different note to the one given - just singing the tuning fork note would be hard enough.
And the 'Three Blind Mice' example was (I think) intended to illustrate exactly HOW it would (in someone's opinion) be possible for most people to sing an F when given an A. Because if you sing that phrase starting with the note given for 'Three' (the A) the note you end up with when singing 'mice' would be an F. Fair enough, so someone who could get a note from a tuning fork AND knew three blind mice AND knew that this tune was a good example to use to go down a third from A to F, could do it. But I think that is rather a big ask! Plus of course you would need a whole set of 'reference tunes' (eg Three Blind Mice for going down a third) for each of the different possible intervals, and remember which was which - something which might come quite easy to musical people, but I think would be nigh on impossible for most.
The other thing was someone said provide the music for the congregation, not just words - this would be little help to most UK congregations as most people have never been taught to read music. But that has been said here many times before....
[ 20. September 2012, 20:52: Message edited by: Gracious rebel ]
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Fancy a break beside the sea in Suffolk? Visit my website
Posts: 4413 | From: Suffolk UK | Registered: Nov 2002
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
Thank you for that, Gracious Rebel. I'm on a different device now so can't respond fully.
I think I may have made a mistake in introducing "Three Blind Mice" into the conversation. People are placing on it a heavier burden than it was intended to bear. My intention wasn't to suggest that any sort of reference tune would be needed. I wasn't suggesting using "Three Blind Mice" as a way of remembering going down the scale by a third. I was merely using it add an example to illustrate what I meant when I spoke about going down a third and how it is something that is so simple that most of us have done it since childhood when we sang that song, even if we didn't have the vocabulary to call it that. That's all. Reference tunes aren't needed: that would just complicate matters unnecessarily. You just need to go up or down the scale in however many steps the interval requires.
I take your point on board about talking past each other. It isn't my intention. I'm just trying to get it.
[ 20. September 2012, 21:12: Message edited by: The Scrumpmeister ]
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
I'd be quite happy to see music in church as something done by the talented or recorded. That's how our culture does music - it listens to recorded music or goes to gigs. I personally enjoy a good sing but I'm unconvinced of the value of congregational singing in this day and age.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
But the church is meant to be counter-cultural!
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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