Ship of Fools: MW Report 2440: Michaelsgemeinde (Schloßkirche), Pforzheim, Germany

Thread: MW Report 2440: Michaelsgemeinde (Schloßkirche), Pforzheim, Germany Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by seasick (# 48) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
Seems this is as good a place to answer the closing questions of MW Report 2440 as any, since it's so short and all:

quote:
2 – I enjoyed the style of service, and can imagine coming back again. However, I don't see how one can get involved. There was no announcement as to which liturgy was being used. There was no attempt to make conversation or draw our attention to any other church activities. There is no current information on any activities during the week or even wider social work available on the web. Where would one start?
For the most part, German churches don't do the sort of lay involvement one finds in English speaking countries. Churches are more or less considered to be a service the State provides its citizens like schools or hospitals. The buildings are maintained by the State, and priests are considered to be public employees.

To be fair, coffee hour and bible studies and the like are a fairly new thing in English speaking countries too. After confirmation, one didn't usually hang around church too much outside of services unless one was a vestryman. The wave of "education wing" constructions in the 90's was necessary because most church never needed a space for such at thing before.

quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Rob:

quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:

... coffee hour and bible studies and the like are a fairly new thing in English speaking countries too. After confirmation, one didn't usually hang around church too much outside of services unless one was a vestryman. The wave of "education wing" constructions in the 90's was necessary because most church never needed a space for such at thing before.
I do remember the 1950s when perpetual, every Sunday coffee hours were introduced as a new thing following the main service.

I'm sure you're right about the education wing constructions of the 90s, but that has also been a perennial thing, mostly initiated during the periodic financial booms of the late 19th cen until the present day. No boom, no money for additions. The 1950s saw a boom in new church construction.

The 1920s had a huge boom in church building and in additions constructed for Christian education, with space for the works of the social gospel. In the 1920s we find the general advent of the parish house. as distinct from many an old rectory or church basement.

Further, the first half of the 20th cen saw large parishes such as New York City's St. Georges, Styvesant Sq, St. Bartholomew's, Park Ave, Trinity Wall St; in Boston, Emmanuel, Newbury St and Trinity, Copley Sq; and in Pittsburgh, Calvary Church, that were able to raise big money to build large and complex plants, super parish houses, for multi-purpose use.

Now they have to pay the utility and maintenance bills for a lot of that building still standing and in use. That's a point of course, if possible, to remember in planning.
*

Posted by Gill H (# 68) on :

We have been to several churches in Germany and found the same thing. Not always (an 'Old-Catholic' church laid on a full buffet lunch, with beer and wine, and were very friendly) but mostly people were even more reserved than Brits.

The exceptions were a small 'Evangelische' church in Berlin (not that different from MoR Anglican) where we were practically adopted! I think because it wasn't a big famous church - just one that happened to be near our hotel - they were thrilled to have visitors.

A Vineyard-style chuch in Stuttgart was also very welcoming. They offered headphones for a translation of the sermon. (My A level German is a bit rusty!). However, the pastor went way off his notes and the poor girl had to translate on the fly!

By contrast a Willow Creek style 'seeker' church left us cold. Great music, a good sketch and a thought-provoking talk (the bits I could follow). But come coffee time, we were ignored completely.

We retreated to a nearby ice cream parlour where people couldn't be friendlier!

Posted by Utrecht Catholic (# 14285) on :

Like the other correspondents,I have worshipped many times in a lot of churches in Germany. I like best the style of worship in the German Roman-Catholic Church.Good liturgy and excellent music and hymn singing.
The German Old-catholic church is rather low church, quite different from its sister church in the Netherlands.
With regard to the Evangelische Kirche, its churches look always magnificent,good organ music but I find the worship in most churches rather dull.Communion is not frequently celebrated and I would like to see the ministers in alb and stole rather than in the current old-fashioned preaching-gown or talar.
The German Lutherans could a learn a lot from their sisters and brothers in Sweden, where you will find the best form of High Church Lutheran worship.This church has adopted some very good liturgical elements from the Anglicans and Roman-Catholics.
As to the coffeehour or the opportunity to meet the clergy and fellow-worshippers this is with the exception of special occasions, unknown with the German Churches.

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Utrecht Catholic:
As to the coffeehour or the opportunity to meet the clergy and fellow-worshippers this is with the exception of special occasions, unknown with the German Churches.

To what extent is this a quirk of the anglophone world?

Posted by Utrecht Catholic (# 14285) on :

Please note that I am a Dutch citizen and living in the Netherlands.
Most of the Dutch churches offer the opportunity to meet each ofter after the Sunday worship.
We have adopted this custom from the US churches.
However like a lot of British churches we do not always have large parish halls.

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

quote:
Utrecht Catholic: Most of the Dutch churches offer the opportunity to meet each ofter after the Sunday worship.

I take it that you're talking about Catholic churches?

My parents go to a mainstream protestant (PKN) church. The tradition is that they'd have 'coffee after church' with the community every 4–5 weeks or so. In my experience, there are some churches that started doing this every Sunday, but that's a relatively recent thing.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

I am living in the wrong country.

I'd love to go to a church where there isn't an expectation that you have to hang around afterwards.

Posted by Utrecht Catholic (# 14285) on :

I am a Dutch Old-Catholic and in most of our parishes, everybody is invited for coffee,tea after the Eucharist.
The coffee hour is as far as I know,customary among most Dutch churches,Catholic or Protestant,particularly in large cities.

For those who do not like it, you have always the choice to leave.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

Does 'coffee hour' really take up 60 minutes?

Posted by Liturgylover (# 15711) on :

I would agree with the comments that Robert and Gill made above. My experience has been that some churches in Germany do have coffee after the service, but there is no general invitation to attend - I once stumbled across people having coffee on my way to the toilet and was not invited to join the "regulars".

I must also share a very negative experience I had in August at the St Marien-Kirche, a fine looking city centre church in Berlin (almost in the shadow of the Berliner Dom)

Having attended an organ receital earlier in the week, the organist encouraged me to attend the communion service on Sunday when the once-a-month liturgical choir (another peculiar feature of Germany) would be singing.

Because of a cycle race and diverted buses I arrived 10 minutes late and was refused entry, even though I made it perfectly clear to the guards on the door several times (they certainly could not be described as welcomers) that I had come to attend the service and not just to see the church. Other people were also locked out and were as surprised and upset as I was. I returned at the end of the service to speak to the priest who was apologetic, but I have since heard from others about similar experiences at this church. Very poor.

Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on :

Similar things happen at every tourist shrine in Europe. Sunday morning at Westminster Abbey was underwhelming to say the least. I usually skip the fancy cathedrals and go to the local parish church on Sunday morning when I am abroad.

Posted by cross eyed bear (# 13977) on :

As author of the report, I feel I ought to join in!

It is true that coffee cannot always be expected after the service when worshipping here in Germany. As a rule, the 'free churches' (the denominations not funded by church tax deducted at source) offer coffee and chat after the service, whereas ist is certainly rarer in the state protestant churches. I'm afraid I don't have that much experience of catholic churches in Germany.

I regularly attend a free church ( baptist, although very different to my UK baptist experience) and church coffee, weekly meetings and community are very much a part of that church if you want it. The methodist churches I've been to here have been the same.

When I go to the small chapel in my village ( also state protestant), there isn't coffee either, but as everyone in the village knows each other, it isn't so much of an issue.

For me, the benefits I gain from being able to get to know my fellow worshippers has been the main reason I don't worship higher up the candle here in Germany, which is why the lack of coffee and contact featured so prominently in the report.

Sitting in a group of strangers can be incredibly lonely, and the opportunity to get to know fellow worshippers, support and be supported by them as needed,not to mention welcoming seekers if they want this and have questions about this strange church business is, for me, also an element of worship and service.

Posted by Barefoot Friar (# 13100) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:
I am living in the wrong country.

I'd love to go to a church where there isn't an expectation that you have to hang around afterwards.

'Round these parts, everyone is gone and I'm locking up by 15 minutes after the service. We simply don't do a coffee hour, at least not in any of the (non-Anglican or Episcopalian) churches I've ever been to, or heard of. TEC places do it, to one extent or another, and I don't know about RCs, but all the Protestants are off like a shot. We all joke about "beating the Baptists to [restaurant name]." In fact, congregations have been known to start services 15-30 minutes earlier than the others just so they can be seated at their favorite restaurants before the other churches let out.

EDIT: I'm not in Germany, and I know no one gives a rat's patootie what we do in rural Alabama. My point in relating it is simply that the coffee hour is hardly a global phenomenon.

[ 19. September 2012, 21:40: Message edited by: Barefoot Friar ]

Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :

[Confused]

Our shack was built in 1886 and like many churches of its era, particularly those that went on to be United Churches, the basement doubles as the Sunday School and Church Hall. The wooden dividers, like the cover on a wooden roller-desk, drop down from the ceiling to convert the space to a Sunday School. You open them up to have a reception on the full floor as one space.

Because of frost heave, buildings here have to have foundations at least four feet underground, in that era it was usually six, and churches didn't just excavate a trench for the footings, they dug out the full depth for second level.

We've had receptions and coffee hour since forever.

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

I don't know about non-Anglican churches in the UK (except that Catholic ones tend not to do it, perhaps mainly for the logistical reason that they often have many masses on a Sunday), but in the C of E 'coffee hour' (which is never called that, and never an hour, IME) developed out of the 'parish breakfast'. Which itself was pioneered early last century by those parishes earliest to adopt the 'parish communion'. I remember an anglo-catholic church in South London where this consisted of milky tea and white-bread-and-marmalade sandwiches.

Because the 'breakfast', and the earlier than 11.00 start to the service, were a response to the discipline of fasting communion, it first caught on among Tractarian-influenced churches (I believe St John's Newcastle upon Tyne was one of the earliest). Not so much with the more extreme anglo-catholics who clung to the non-communicating High Mass until the 1960s in some places.

The later relaxing of the rules (or customs, in an Anglican context) about fasting meant that breakfast was not so important and the service time could be later. Also the parish communion became more or less universal across the churchpersonship spectrum, at least in urban parishes, and the desire for 'fellowship' began to be stressed more. So weak instant coffee came to be substituted for milky tea and sandwiches.

'Where two or three are gathered together, there is Nescafé in the midst of them.' (Usually two or three grains thereof per cup). I have experienced this phenomenon in an Anglican church in the south of France. Forget about the liturgy and the 39 articles, that is a sign of true Anglicanism.

Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :

My visits to Anglican churches in the south of France were better-timed than those of Angloid. S Andrew's, Pau, provided a fellow Australian pilgrim and myself with two glasses of champagne each. Why is this godly hospitality not emulated throughout the communion?

[ 19. September 2012, 22:18: Message edited by: Augustine the Aleut ]

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

I attended "tea in the hall afterwards" * for strictly theological reasons. My fellow communicants probably have very little in common with me socially. Nonetheless they are the body of Christ as much as the Blessed Sacrament itself. Therefore it is my Christian duty to try to relate to them as human beings in their own right, socially awkward though it may be.

* Sorry to sound so middle class, but for me, instant coffee is not coffee, just a coffee flavoured hot drink.

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

quote:
Utrecht Catholic: The coffee hour is as far as I know,customary among most Dutch churches,Catholic or Protestant,particularly in large cities.

I agree that it's probably more a city thing. In rural churches, a coffee hour every 4–5 weeks seems to be the norm, at least in my experience. Maybe it's because in these communities, most people see eachother quite often anyway?

Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on :

I speculate that coffee hour is only really necessary when there is a clear distinction between the parish and the community. In the past, there really wasn't one- the parish was merely the community at prayer. If one wanted fellowship in the parish one simply popped over to the neighbors' for cake and coffee. Parish dinners were (and in rural parts of Europe still are) indistinguishable from civic festivals.

Just wild speculation there.

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

Sounds as if you might be about right, zach.

(I'm still aghast at this coffee hour business. Do you mean a whole sixty minutes?)

Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :

quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
(I'm still aghast at this coffee hour business. Do you mean a whole sixty minutes?)

I think this use of "hour" is to mean "time," such as "cocktail hour," "story hour," or "rush hour."

Sometimes I do attend coffee hour for an hour, if I get cornered by a particular parishioner who loves to have someone to speak to at length. I'm not skilled at extricating myself from such conversations once they've gone past the point where I'm glad to be listening.
[Roll Eyes]

(A couple of weeks ago I swore I'd never attend coffee hour again, but I think I'm over that now.)

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
I don't know about non-Anglican churches in the UK

I can't think of a UK Baptist church which doesn't do a "coffee hour" - it has everything to do with fellowship, but nothing at all to do with parish breakfasts.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

IO think it is misusing the word 'fellowship' to describe what goes on it is more akin to small talk or gpssip.

Fellowship in the NT koinonia sense is more likely to happen in small house/cell groups that meet for prayer, Bible study etc.

Posted by PRESBY DUDE (# 16035) on :

An earlier post about the lack of cordiality at London's famous Westminster Abbey rekindled some memories.

I'm a dedicated Anglophile, and I love spending a few weeks each year in London. Sinful being though I am, I'm an active church-goer, and I truly enjoy visiting various London services.

Now I realize (realise for the Brit readers) that the Abbey is a very large tourist attraction, as well as a house of worship. The Abbey is inundated with people. However, the welcome for worshippers there seems perfunctory at best. When my wife and I make it quite clear that we've approached the hallowed walls to worship and not to tour, we are admitted. But on more than twenty visits over the years, I haven't received a warm smile, an acknowledging nod, or a cordial greeting yet. (And no, I don't expect to be hugged or presented with chocolate chip cookies, American-style.) We've still attended the Abbey, simply because the music is so magnificent.

We're spending the first three weeks of October in London. (Lest you should think, "Aha! Rich Yanks!", let me emphasize that the three weeks will be in a decent but reasonably priced guest house---not at the Savoy, the Dochester, or even a Hilton.) We're skipping the Abbey and St. Paul's this year, we think. While in London, we'll be looking for some friendly parish churches with good traditional services and music, regardless of denomination. Suggestions, anyone? We like St. Columba's Church of Scotland, but we're not limited to worshipping with our fellow Presbies. We like to visit hither, thither, and yon. We'll be avoiding the "happy clappy" praise bands and worship teams, as we're old fogies who don't care to rock 'n' roll in church.

I do think, though, that the large cathedrals - despite the large numbers of tourists - could attempt to offer a tad friendlier welcome to those who enter God's house. Perhaps some volunteers as the "friendliness brigade"? Example: In the USA, the Cincinnati Airport has volunteers from the community stationed around the airport to greet and welcome people and offer to assist them. Airports are usually very impersonal places these days, and the volunteers "soften" the harsh atmosphere.

Many cathedral visitors rarely set foot in a Christian church, and their welcome as tourists, whether worshipping or not, may be a rare exposure to the faith. It's a shame if these visitors find God's house to be a cold, impersonal place, even if the music is superb.

By the way, I love Ship of Fools!

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

If you like cathedrals otherwise, and you'll be in London, you can't do better than Southwark. The very building itself is friendly.

Posted by Liturgylover (# 15711) on :

quote:
Originally posted by PRESBY DUDE:

We're spending the first three weeks of October in London. We're skipping the Abbey and St. Paul's this year, we think. While in London, we'll be looking for some friendly parish churches with good traditional services and music, regardless of denomination. Suggestions, anyone? We like St. Columba's Church of Scotland, but we're not limited to worshipping with our fellow Presbies. We like to visit hither, thither, and yon. We'll be avoiding the "happy clappy" praise bands and worship teams, as we're old fogies who don't care to rock 'n' roll in church.

I do think, though, that the large cathedrals - despite the large numbers of tourists - could attempt to offer a tad friendlier welcome to those who enter God's house. Perhaps some volunteers as the "friendliness brigade"? Example: In the USA, the Cincinnati Airport has volunteers from the community stationed around the airport to greet and welcome people and offer to assist them. Airports are usually very impersonal places these days, and the volunteers "soften" the harsh atmosphere.

Many cathedral visitors rarely set foot in a Christian church, and their welcome as tourists, whether worshipping or not, may be a rare exposure to the faith. It's a shame if these visitors find God's house to be a cold, impersonal place, even if the music is superb.

By the way, I love Ship of Fools!

I hope you have a wonderful time when you come to London, and am happy to make some recommendations on friendlier places to visit by PM or if you want to start a new thread?.

Last time I visited the Abbey on Sunday for Evensong I noticed a much friendlier approach both from the staff at the gate and those inside the Quire. Perhaps they have been influenced by the Olympics!

I agree with you that cathedrals should be friendlier and think about how their welcome or lack of it might be interpreted - I have now learnt to be prepared to brace myself and explain that I have come to worship and not to visit.

What shocked me in Berlin (and this wasn't even at a Cathedral) was that even after explaining this in English and in German, they still refused me and others admission to the Sunday service (even though there were plently of empty seats and lots of people exiting at regular intervals.) I found this unnaceptable.

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Liturgylover:

What shocked me in Berlin (and this wasn't even at a Cathedral) was that even after explaining this in English and in German, they still refused me and others admission to the Sunday service (even though there were plently of empty seats and lots of people exiting at regular intervals.) I found this unnaceptable.

Utterly bizarre. Closed communion is one thing, but restricting a church to private worship is another. I must have misunderstood you.

Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on :

Marienkirche is, indeed, a tourist shrine and the church of the Bishop of Berlin.

[ 20. September 2012, 16:25: Message edited by: Zach82 ]

Posted by Liturgylover (# 15711) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
Marienkirche is, indeed, a tourist shrine and the church of the Bishop of Berlin.

That is no excuse or justification. I have been to much more popular tourist shrines and never been excluded from worship.

Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on :

Maybe it's not an excuse, but the fact that the vast majority of visitors to Marienkirche are not there to worship, and that this is extremely disruptive to its life of worship, makes the behavior of the guards a little more understandable.

Posted by Liturgylover (# 15711) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
Maybe it's not an excuse, but the fact that the vast majority of visitors to Marienkirche are not there to worship, and that this is extremely disruptive to its life of worship, makes the behavior of the guards a little more understandable.

I disagree (and incidently so did the Pastor when I spoke to him about the incident). They should be astute enough to distinguish a genuine worshiper from someone who has come to look at the church - especially when they are specifically told as I did. And most people are clever enough to work out that worship takes place on a Sunday!

[ 20. September 2012, 18:05: Message edited by: Liturgylover ]

Posted by georgiaboy (# 11294) on :

Many years ago, before my first visit to the UK, I was given this advice by an experienced friend:

If you want to worship at a tourist-popular church (Abbey, StPauls, StGeorgesWindsor, etc) wear your 'Sunday best', carry your prayer book, and turn up on time. If questioned by usher/virger/bouncer/guard, just say 'We're here for the service.' Never had any problems, though at Chapel Royal Hampton Court we were cautioned 'You must stay for the entire service, you know.' To which I replied 'Well, of course.'

Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Liturgylover:

quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
Maybe it's not an excuse, but the fact that the vast majority of visitors to Marienkirche are not there to worship, and that this is extremely disruptive to its life of worship, makes the behavior of the guards a little more understandable.
I disagree (and incidently so did the Pastor when I spoke to him about the incident). They should be astute enough to distinguish a genuine worshiper from someone who has come to look at the church - especially when they are specifically told as I did. And most people are clever enough to work out that worship takes place on a Sunday!

Would that it were so! While agreeing with you on how cathedral staff acted, many tourists come with little to no religious knowledge. As well, I have spoken with Japanese travellers on the road to Santiago who had no (repeat!) no understanding or knowedge of Xty, aside from the place of Santa Claus. I was once asked why there were no rabbits in churches, given their importance for Easter. While ignorance of Sunday as a day of worship did not come up in our discussions, it would not have surprised me one bit.

I have seen travellers enter Spanish and French churches when services were on and ushers prevent photographers, who were talking quite loudly, from circulating around the chancel when the celebrant was at the altar. Tour guides cheerfully walk their charges through the middle of a worshipping conversation, using their laser pointers to illustrate their monologues, all the while being pursued by ushers.

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

quote:
venbede: (I'm still aghast at this coffee hour business. Do you mean a whole sixty minutes?)

In Holland, we usually call it 'Coffee after Church'. It alliterates a lot better in Dutch [Biased]

Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on :

I am mystified at the confusion around the simple phrase "coffee hour." Is using "hour" to refer to the vague amount of time associated with some event an American thing? "Rush hour" is the time when traffic is heavy, "happy hour" is the period after work reserved for knocking back a few drinks, etc.

I mean, "coffee quarter-hour" would sound silly, wouldn't it?

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

Rush hour is usually longer than an hour; 'happy hour' can vary according to the establishment. Both terms are common this side of the pond; 'coffee hour' isn't. Just one of those things I suppose. Like spelling colour with or without a u. Nothing to get worked up about, or try to justify logically, but it can be an irrational trigger for cross-pond prejudice.

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

I've not been conscious of this before, but I think there may be a difference of usage. I think over here if you call something 'XXX hour' you expect it to last either exactly an hour, or slightly more but less than two, never less. In a 'happy hour', people won't mind if the reduction lasts for more than an hour, but will mind a great deal if the beer go back to its normal price after 45 minutes. Whereas I suspect Zach from what you are saying that in the US 'hour' can mean just 'a period of time' rather than specifically '60 minutes worth of time'.

It's a bit like using 'ship' as a verb. In the US it seems to mean something general, more like 'consign', whereas here it still conveys the notion that the goods are going to come by boat.

Posted by LutheranChik (# 9826) on :

Thinking back to my own childhood in the early/mid-60's...my earliest church, a very charming looking, fieldstone rural LCMS church near my home, didn't offer coffee after the service, at least not as far as I can remember -- we shook the pastor's hand at the front door and left immediately worship. I honestly don't recall there being a church basement...we had a separate fieldstone education building next door, which would have been the only space with room to accomodate a post-church nosh, but I just don't recall ever being part of such a thing.

When I was about 9 that church merged with a congregation in our town, and that church always had coffee hour after worship. (Coffee and boughten cookies; nothing fancy.) I think, as others have noted, that that custom came about in congregations where it was no longer assumed that everyone knew everyone else.

BTW, one of my German professors, who liked to wander over to the Lutheran church next to the MSU campus on weekday afternoons to play the organ, recalled attending worship there for the first and only time one Sunday -- he said he hated all the handshaking and peace-passing and visitor-fawning-over. "They acted like they wanted to marry me!"

[ 21. September 2012, 13:30: Message edited by: LutheranChik ]

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Rush hour is usually longer than an hour.

And the one thing you can't do in it is rush - as far as driving is concerned, it's the slowest time of the whole day!

Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on :

I think it usually only becomes "a vague period of time" when used in conjunctions. Back in the day the local television station might air a 90 minute movie for "Mystery Hour" on Saturday nights. But "we studied for an hour" would actually mean "we studied for about 60 minutes."

Maybe it refers more to a specific point in the day instead of a period of time?

[ 21. September 2012, 14:03: Message edited by: Zach82 ]

Posted by Nick Tamen (# 15164) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
Maybe it refers more to a specific point in the day instead of a period of time?

Per my dictionary, one of the meanings of "hour" is "a short or limited period of time." Another meaning is "a particular or appointed time" (as in "the hour of his death"). I think it's usually clear from context whether one of these definitions is meant or whether 60 minutes is meant.

And I'd agree that where I live, coffee hours either occur between services so that worshippers from both services can visit or, where they occur after the service, are usually limited to congregations where people don't necessarily see each other elsewhere.

Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
Maybe it refers more to a specific point in the day instead of a period of time?

Yes, like "the dinner hour," really probably only 30 minutes or less...the "hour" is a general time of the day during which certain things generally happen and don't happen ("I hate getting phone calls during the dinner hour" doesn't mean 5:30-6:30 p.m. necessarily but does mean whatever period of time I generally spend in preparing and ingesting dinner).

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by georgiaboy:
'You must stay for the entire service, you know.' To which I replied 'Well, of course.'

I'd ask whether the 'entire service' including the 'coffee hour' or whether this was optional.

Otherwise, I'd find a walk in the park more conducive (unless they were serving sherry - then I'd stay.)

Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on :

Coffee hour has always been completely optional at any church I have gone to. It's clearly after the service, not part of it.

Posted by Utrecht Catholic (# 14285) on :

It is not quite clear to me why some people make such a fuss about the "Coffee hour",since it is no part of the service,you can alway leave.
However it is a good opportunity to speak with the celebrant/presider/minister and fellow worshippers.
I am glad that the European churches have adopted this custom from their US bretheren and sisters.
In addition to this, some London Churches offer even a nice lunch e.g.Margaret Street and Holborn.
A good tradition.

Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on :

I have it on good authority that coffee hour is not a good time to bring up business with the priest if you want him or her to remember any of it come Monday morning. [Biased]

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Utrecht Catholic:
It is not quite clear to me why some people make such a fuss about the "Coffee hour",since it is no part of the service,you can alway leave.

If only. Ours is a touchy-feely sort of church and it seems like a moral obligation to stay.

I often slink off to the sacristy to do some photocopying - people come to find me if they want a serious conversation.

Then I can get out by the side door.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
I have it on good authority that coffee hour is not a good time to bring up business with the priest if you want him or her to remember any of it come Monday morning.

Or Tuesday, given that most clergy designate Monday as their day off.

Posted by georgiaboy (# 11294) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:

quote:
Originally posted by georgiaboy:
'You must stay for the entire service, you know.' To which I replied 'Well, of course.'
I'd ask whether the 'entire service' including the 'coffee hour' or whether this was optional.

Otherwise, I'd find a walk in the park more conducive (unless they were serving sherry - then I'd stay.)

Coffee Hour at Hampton Court Palace? The mind reels! On the other hand at ASMS the printed order of service included this notice: 'The licenced establishment in the undercroft opens xx minutes after the end of the high mass.' (or words to that effect) [Yipee]

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

I know. I have frequented it often.

Posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras (# 11274) on :

quote:
Originally posted by georgiaboy:

quote:
Originally posted by leo:

quote:
Originally posted by georgiaboy:
'You must stay for the entire service, you know.' To which I replied 'Well, of course.'
I'd ask whether the 'entire service' including the 'coffee hour' or whether this was optional.

Otherwise, I'd find a walk in the park more conducive (unless they were serving sherry - then I'd stay.)
Coffee Hour at Hampton Court Palace? The mind reels! On the other hand at ASMS the printed order of service included this notice: 'The licenced establishment in the undercroft opens xx minutes after the end of the high mass.' (or words to that effect)

Besides which for the past few years sherry and wine have been available in the church garden after Mass, weather permitting.

Posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras (# 11274) on :

At an Anglo-Catholic parish of my young adulthood, in Texas, the EYC (Episcopal Young Churchmen -- i.e. the teenagers) on occasion sold bloody marys and screwdrivers (vodka-orange juice) after Mass to raise funds for their activities. Not sure whether or not this was strictly legal, but was much appreciated. IIRC there was sometimes also mimosas/bucks fizz on offer. Otherwise we didn't normally have a "coffee hour".

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
For me, instant coffee is not coffee, just a coffee flavoured hot drink.

Preach it, brother, yay! Freshly-brewed for me, please.

Of course, there are some churches which have two morning services with the "coffee hour" in between. The idea is for members of both congregations to mingle. Won't work so well for multiple Masses, of course.

As a child (MTR Anglican., early 1960s) it was "Tea in the church hall afterwards". Not even sure if C....e was on offer!

PS I once heard John Bell advocating that every church should have coffee "perking" during the service! How would that aroma mingle with the incense? Not a problem for the CofS, of course!

Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on :

Instant coffee isn't much of a thing in the United States. Drip coffee machines are everywhere, and every Episcopal church I have ever heard of has one of those restaurant sized percolators. My current parish has three- two for regular coffee and one for decaff!

If you want espresso, though, you have to go to your local mega-church. Or just go to the coffee shop around the corner instead.

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

Drip coffee isn't much of an improvement on instant. I usually go for tea unless I can see an espresso machine (and I never have yet, in a church).

Posted by Edgeman (# 12867) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Utrecht Catholic:
It is not quite clear to me why some people make such a fuss about the "Coffee hour",since it is no part of the service,you can alway leave.

I don't think Our Blessed Lord appreciates you disparaging the eighth sacrament of the church like this.

Coffee hour is something new for us, I don't think we started doing it until our last pastor started it last year, but it's greatly appreciated. A lot of our parishioners are commuters, and it's hard to build a sense of a real parish family when many of us don't even live in the same neighborhoods. It's voluntary of course, but free food is hard to resist.

Posted by seasick (# 48) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Drip coffee isn't much of an improvement on instant. I usually go for tea unless I can see an espresso machine (and I never have yet, in a church).

We do have one in of the churches here as it has a coffee bar. It's sadly not used on a Sunday morning though!

Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :

A church without a coffee percolator? [Eek!]

That's not possible.

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

Alas, it is possible......

.......but we have GIN instead......

Ian J.

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

I'm not at all sure percolators are used domestically in the UK nowadays. I noticed this morning at the church hall the coffee was made with a plunger.

I have known places where having sipped my tepid brown liquid, I'm not altogether sure whether it is meant to be tea or coffee.

Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on :

Percolators are pretty rare for home use in the US these days. Drip machines and French presses are the norm, though those single serving automatic jobbers are on the rise. Percolators remain pretty common for food service though, since they can make a massive amount of the stuff.

As for drip machine coffee being just as bad as instant. [Roll Eyes]

[ 23. September 2012, 17:33: Message edited by: Zach82 ]

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:

As for drip machine coffee being just as bad as instant.

Well, slight exaggeration. But I am never enthused to attend meetings in hotels or conference centres where that is clearly what is on offer. Especially if it's been put into those flasks with pumps in the lid which I am never able to operate without spilling.

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:

quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:

As for drip machine coffee being just as bad as instant.
Well, slight exaggeration. But I am never enthused to attend meetings in hotels or conference centres where that is clearly what is on offer. Especially if it's been put into those flasks with pumps in the lid which I am never able to operate without spilling.

I think the fault lies there with the flasky things. And the fact that two things that the vast majority of hotels have only in piss-poor forms are coffee and beer. This is a great shame, as that's two food groups out.

Posted by Mamacita (# 3659) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Drip coffee isn't much of an improvement on instant. I usually go for tea unless I can see an espresso machine (and I never have yet, in a church).

Some of the churches around here talk about installing espresso machines because they think they'll keep the thirty-somethings from running out to St. Arbucks after dropping their little darlings off for Sunday school. As if it's about the coffee. But I digress.

Posted by Olaf (# 11804) on :

"St. Arbucks"! [Killing me]

Well, now I'm tempted to go back to my church, only for the sake of putting a St. Arbucks sign above the coffee pot!

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mamacita:
As if it's about the coffee. But I digress.

Quite. It's not about the coffee. And outside Italian and French bars, nobody can make an espresso in less than five minutes.

You were not digressing. You were taking us back to liturgy.

I'm starting a thread in Heaven.

Posted by Mamacita (# 3659) on :

quote:
Originally posted by venbede:

quote:
Originally posted by Mamacita:
As if it's about the coffee. But I digress.
You were not digressing. You were taking us back to liturgy.

Actually, I was thinking unChristian thoughts about those who see fit to drop Jason and Jessica off for a Jesus Injection while then heading out for a latte and ditching the liturgy altogether, or the adult forum. Happy to take credit for a skillful re-direct, though. [Two face]

Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :

quote:
Originally posted by georgiaboy:
On the other hand at ASMS the printed order of service included this notice: 'The licenced establishment in the undercroft opens xx minutes after the end of the high mass.' (or words to that effect)

Wasn't open the Sunday I visited (some years ago) because of renovations being done in the undercroft. Had to be happy with lemonade in the courtyard, IIRC.

Still well worth the visit. And it warms my heart to know that the history of All Saints', Margaret Street, includes my nearly stopping everyone's heart by dropping a hymnal on the floor with a bizarrely overly loud slam. Must have dropped it just right for maximum acoustic effect.
[Hot and Hormonal]

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

That's probably how Tenebrae developed - with someone doing the same thing centuries before, somewhere else, and it eventually became part of the liturgy.

Posted by IngoB (# 8700) on :

FWIW, in the RCC Churches I have frequented (German, Australian, Dutch, British, US, French, Italian, Spanish, Belgian, Filipino, ... probably forgetting some), "coffee hour" was never a feature. RC worship everywhere I've been consists essentially of "in - sacrament - out", with the "out" bit quite commonly resembling a minor stampede. I think there may be such a thing now offered by my current RC parish (in the UK), but it takes careful detective work to find out about it and I have exactly zero interest in it - as is the case for at least 90% of my fellow parishioners.

I feel weirdly compelled to see something amiss with that. But to be perfectly honest, I don't. I just don't think of church as that kind of community, really. I feel no particular loss at not knowing most of my brothers and sisters in Christ from Adam. Hmm. Perhaps it's more like Trekkies converging at a movie theater to see the latest Star Trek movie. It's not really necessary to know everybody who is coming. Actually, it would be annoying and perhaps a bit creepy if there was some kind of forced "social event" attached to seeing the movie. Rather, the community of Trekkies forms precisely in the act of hastening to the movie theatre to see the latest Star Trek movie. Obviously, if it was a very small movie theatre with just a handful of patrons, one would get to know each other fairly quickly. But if it is a big one with many patrons, then not. And that's OK.

Well, perhaps that's just me. It remains fact though that in the RCC "coffee hour" is a rarity, in my rather international experience...

Posted by John Holding (# 158) on :

A slightly different light on the usual absence of a coffee hour in local RC churches comes from the fact that the norm is for one priest to have to say/celebrate 3-5 masses on Sunday morning -- not always in the same building, but usually -- as well as the 1-2 on Saturday night. The usual parish has one priest for 5-6000 families. (And, FWIW, the average priestly age seems to be 70+)

Friends of mine say the routine is 5 minutes to park the car, 45 minutes for mass and 5 minutes to clear the parking lot to allow the next set in. Not really time for coffee or even to shake hands.

John

Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :

quote:
Originally posted by John Holding:
Friends of mine say the routine is 5 minutes to park the car, 45 minutes for mass and 5 minutes to clear the parking lot to allow the next set in. Not really time for coffee or even to shake hands.

Yes. That's why my father always backed the car into a parking space so he could make a speedy exit after Mass.

Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :

The only RC churches where I have really seen anything comparable to a coffee hour is where they are ethnic or heritage language (national or quasi-national parishes, in canon law terms) parishes. There the churches serve as social centres (and even job markets)-- they transcend even Lutheran and UCC churches for baked treats and snacks and I heartily recommend our local Polish and Croatian churches for goodies. While there is a bit of initial awkwardness for those of us who become visible minorities at a Chaldean or Syro-Malankarese coffee hour, I have found people generally quite friendly and have found myself carrying take-away packages for my sustenance. Shipmates who find themselves at such events will find it difficult to return to the percolator coffee and supermarket cookies of their home diocese (or presbytery).

The other advantage of the older (as opposed to the suburban) RC ethnic or Orthodox church, is that they are usually in a good area for coffee-houses and bakeries should they not host their own. One of my Orthie friends (priestly family) tells me that this is because there are always some carefully fasting parishioners who need their fix to avoid collapsing after the 47th akathist.

Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :

That may be, Augustine, but nothing beats the particular delight of egg sandwiches and a platter of UCCan baked treats, and the coffee/tea. It is a cultural package, along with the smell of wood combined with decades of ladies' perfume and a bit of dust.

It is home, in a way nothing else can me.

Posted by Edgeman (# 12867) on :

quote:
Originally posted by John Holding:
A slightly different light on the usual absence of a coffee hour in local RC churches comes from the fact that the norm is for one priest to have to say/celebrate 3-5 masses on Sunday morning -- not always in the same building, but usually -- as well as the 1-2 on Saturday night. The usual parish has one priest for 5-6000 families. (And, FWIW, the average priestly age seems to be 70+)

Friends of mine say the routine is 5 minutes to park the car, 45 minutes for mass and 5 minutes to clear the parking lot to allow the next set in. Not really time for coffee or even to shake hands.

John

Well, it works for us. We have four Sunday masses, and the first three are back-to-back: 8:30, 10:00, and 12:00. The half hour break between masses is coffee 'hour'. The Saturday evening mass has coffee afterward as well. I have no idea if the Sunday 8PM mass has any afterward, but I'd doubt it. I think the main reason, personally, is a lack of people to actually attend! In your average U.S. Catholic parish, a good third will leave right after communion and another third will leave during the recessional hymn.

Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
That may be, Augustine, but nothing beats the particular delight of egg sandwiches and a platter of UCCan baked treats, and the coffee/tea. It is a cultural package, along with the smell of wood combined with decades of ladies' perfume and a bit of dust.

It is home, in a way nothing else can me.

I have found such offerings to be a very agreeable part of a UCC funeral.

Posted by Olaf (# 11804) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:

quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
That may be, Augustine, but nothing beats the particular delight of egg sandwiches and a platter of UCCan baked treats, and the coffee/tea. It is a cultural package, along with the smell of wood combined with decades of ladies' perfume and a bit of dust.

It is home, in a way nothing else can me.
I have found such offerings to be a very agreeable part of a UCC funeral.

Don't forget the church's musty mid-century basement floor tiles! Ya gotta have those.

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