|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: Messy Church
|
Panda
Shipmate
# 2951
|
Posted
We've had a few Messy Church threads before (I think I may have started one) but they tend to be mostly Heavenly. I wonder if we can have one slightly more Eccles-leaning that looks at it in terms of the worship and general spirituality involved, as well as the organisation?
We've been runnning one for over 2 years now, with reasonable success. Although half an hour before it's due to start, and we've got everything laid out and ready I always find myself thinking, 'This is the one when no-one will turn up' but that's just me. Hasn't happened yet.
In terms of the actual worship part, what works for you? We are very aware of not making it too much like school (sitting still, listening to grownups) since they've just come from there, but there needs to be some stillness. And some singing. We've tried instruments but there are never enough to go around and it just got too scrappy ('Waah...I wanted the drum!'). And the Lord's Prayer, and the grace.
So far we just aim the worship at the kids, while the parents sit behind. I sometimes think I'd like to involve the parents but I'm not sure how.
Further thoughts, on any of the above?
Posts: 1637 | From: North Wales | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
|
Posted
An introductory link... ... in case anyone was thinking that this was about that long-deferred spring cleaning!
--------------------
Flinging wide the gates...
Posts: 10335 | From: Hanging in the balance of the reality of man | Registered: Jun 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Percy B
Shipmate
# 17238
|
Posted
I have to disagree with the implied view of school "sitting still, listening to grown ups" that isn't the primary school of today that I know.
I mention this because if we look at the EYFS style ( EYFS = early years and foundation stage at primary in England), then maybe it could help Messy Church thought.
A lot is about having distinct areas - construction, sand pit, keyboard, books etc. which the children freely move among and grow through exploring.
Can this model inform Messy Church? Space for artwork, a space for stillness etc.
Some liturgies allow for people to do different things at the same time. I am thinking especially of some Orthodox churches where people comfortably move around and in and out of the liturgy.
Maybe this liturgical style can help thinking about church for adults and children like messy church.
Having said which my personal experience is limited on this sort of thing and I look forward to reading others contributions.
--------------------
Mary, a priest??
Posts: 582 | From: Nudrug | Registered: Jul 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
jugular
Voice of Treason
# 4174
|
Posted
I've read the Messy Church books and found nothing of substance in them. Back in the day I ran Kids Clubs. A Kids Club is Messy Church without the parents. It is predicated on the idea that content can be mediated through entertainment.
I have repented of these actions. As a community engagement activity, it might have merit for a short period. It is certainly a catchy name. But the actual practice outlined by Lucy Moore has no evidence base.
If you really want to know what works to foster the spirituality of children, then read 'Children's Spirituality' by Rebecca Nye. Then go and do a Godly Play Core Training. Then apply the principles you learn there - inquiry based learning, respectful dialogue - a child-centred approach. You could still call it Messy Church, but apply some of the ideas that Percy B mentions above, create a safe space, and you might actually be able to do faith formation instead of entertainment.
--------------------
We’ve got to act like a church that hasn’t already internalized the narrative of its own decline Ray Suarez
Posts: 2599 | From: Australia | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Custard
Shipmate
# 5402
|
Posted
I've hardly ever seen Messy Church work as Church rather than as a club with worshippy bits badly bolted on. Certainly never seen real discipleship happen through it.
I suspect that if can work though, especially if used as a way of building relationships, combined with pastoral visiting and so on.
--------------------
blog
Adam's likeness, Lord, efface;
Stamp thine image in its place.
Posts: 4523 | From: Snot's Place | Registered: Jan 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by jugular:
If you really want to know what works to foster the spirituality of children, then read 'Children's Spirituality' by Rebecca Nye. Then go and do a Godly Play Core Training. Then apply the principles you learn there - inquiry based learning, respectful dialogue - a child-centred approach. You could still call it Messy Church, but apply some of the ideas that Percy B mentions above, create a safe space, and you might actually be able to do faith formation instead of entertainment.
This!
--------------------
Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
Posts: 20761 | From: where the purple line ends | Registered: Dec 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Panda
Shipmate
# 2951
|
Posted
That is very valuable, but, much as I hesitate to say it, I think we are talking about roughly two different sorts of kids here. Godly Play is largely for those who have some experience of attending worship services; some concept of their own spirituality (though they may not name it). The amount of quiet sitting, gentle talking, thoughtful dialogue necessary is not (yet?) what our Messy Church attendees are ready for.
All but 2 or 3 are almost completely unchurched and from a wide range of income and/or parental education levels. Virtually their only experience of worship, and knowledge of the Bible - which Godly Play needs - has been what we have done so far.
We do have different spaces for different activities, but we feel the worship has to be for everyone at the same time. There has to be an element of sitting and listening otherwise there's nothing worshipful about it.
PercyB, I take your point completely about school today - I have two primary-age sons so I'm well up on my EYFS! I have often thought that what we do is quite similar to a lot of current schooling. But there is also sitting still and listening, and some kids undoubtedly struggle with that.
As for evidence, Jugular, what sort of time frame are you working on? MC has only been around for 8 years, and has really only been spreading for the last 3 or 4. Out of ours has grown a mum's Christian group - half a dozen mums who come for coffee once a month and talk about faith; we can't be the only one in the country. We've also had a number of baptisms. That doesn't sound like entertainment to me. I grant you that what to do with them to grow their faith after they're well acquainted with MC needs exploring, but I'm still at stage one here.
Be careful of falling into the old trap of saying that if it doesn't boost the Sunday congregation it has no worth in the end. This is a different congregation, on a different day. No doubt you have people who only attend the 8am or Wednesday morning Eucharist - would you dream of saying to them, 'When are you going to start coming to the real service?'
[ 10. October 2012, 21:52: Message edited by: Panda ]
Posts: 1637 | From: North Wales | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ethne Alba
Shipmate
# 5804
|
Posted
what works with children, is very much the same as what works with adults: Namely different things for different situations.
One size does not fit all
Posts: 3126 | Registered: Apr 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
|
Posted
Aaaaah! "Messy Church".
Recipe: take the toddler group; add the helper from the local playschool who feels undervalued; add the disgruntled would-be worship leader(s) who have failed either to be appointed to run the music group or a house discussion group; add a PinC who values his/her time off they really can't be a*sed to sort out either liturgy or a coherent children's strategy; mis up all strands, then decide content is too intellectually challenging so dumb-down. Then impose on the mid-week service usually attended by frailer members of the congregation who have previously benefited from a well-planned and well-run transport rota. Stand back and watch.
--------------------
Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
|
Posted
Oh dear! L'organist, you don't happen to be my parish priest, do you? ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
I'm in two minds about this - other local churches seem to be attracting reasonable numbers to Messy Church, but my own p-in-c prefers to have children of all ages in church for the main Sunday Mass (with little or no 'dumbing-down' - resulting in fascination and multifarious questions from our sharp-as-needles Cubs and Beavers.....). I, OTOH, am exploring the idea of 'Godly Play', simply with the aim of focussing our work with the younger folks.
As I've posted elsewhere, it's hard work when you can have a third of your congregation under-16 one week, and just one or two children the next.
Perhaps we need to start with a sort of Toddlers'/Pram Service during the week (but certainly not to the detriment of any of our other weekday services).....
Ian J.
--------------------
Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
|
Posted
quote:
Oh dear! L'organist, you don't happen to be my parish priest, do you?
NO, I'm not! But I've seen MC imposed on a midweek service with disastrous results.
I read your bit about including all-ages of children with interest: we're going back to it having had 20 years of "family" services which have added not a single family to the regular services. (My own children had to be dragged kicking and screaming to the family service and, when of an age to make their own decisions, chose choral Matins over family...)
My last experience of MC, at a friend's church, was as follows: welcomed with a cup of weak coffee; invited to perch on miniscule child seat; listened to some rambling about "J loves us all", straining to hear through the shrieks and general hubbub; then nothing. It all just petered out. I'd like to think it wasn't typical...
--------------------
Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Avila
Shipmate
# 15541
|
Posted
Messy church, or any other venture aimed at group A should never be forced onto group B especially a pre-existing working space for group B.
The core aspect of the original Messy Church was a particular group in a particular place shaping something new.
When that becomes a brand, the next big idea to copy everywhere else regardless of place, people, skills etc then we miss the original point.
I lead a group doing something that picks up some of the ideas but which is our own creature too. Think a cross between Messy Church idea of all generations being crafty, cafe church serving refreshments and a Godly play style story/conversation.
I don't think Godly Play requires a churched background - it just suits some personalities better than others. I like it because it would have really suited me as a child - I was the annoying 'but why?' wondering child that this fits.
--------------------
http://aweebleswonderings.blogspot.com/
Posts: 1305 | From: west midlands | Registered: Mar 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Panda
Shipmate
# 2951
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Avila:
Messy church, or any other venture aimed at group A should never be forced onto group B especially a pre-existing working space for group B.
Lord, no! I can't imagine that went down well. L'organist's version sounds appalling. Unless the elderlies have signed up for it they shouldn't have to come anywhere near, especially if it's been a traditional mid-week up to then.
quote:
I don't think Godly Play requires a churched background - it just suits some personalities better than others. I like it because it would have really suited me as a child - I was the annoying 'but why?' wondering child that this fits.
Maybe not fully 'churched', but it seems to expect some foreknowledge of that particular bible story. AFAIK none of our MC kids really have that. It does also suit smaller groups, whereas MC tends to run best with 15 or more, perhaps.
I've found the worship most successful if you can achieve one or two 'magic moments' where they are all still and concentrating. I suppose it was risky but everyone lit a candle to say a prayer once, and then took it over to the pricket stand, and that was lovely.
Posts: 1637 | From: North Wales | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
|
Posted
Trouble is, these days, many groups of churches only have one ordained minister (and some not much additional help) so the excuse is that there are not enough staff to put on lots of different services at each church. The only service available that week might be a craft-type service of some kind.
--------------------
Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Jolly Jape
Shipmate
# 3296
|
Posted
Who says MC needs input from the dog-collars. As long as you aren't planning a service of Holy Communion within it, MC can be totally lay led. We used to do this with Family Services (actually, All age worship, before it was so called) years ago, and they were much the most creative services I've ever attended. There was no clergy involvement watsoever - they were there merely as consultants!!
[ 18. October 2012, 18:55: Message edited by: Jolly Jape ]
--------------------
To those who have never seen the flow and ebb of God's grace in their lives, it means nothing. To those who have seen it, even fleetingly, even only once - it is life itself. (Adeodatus)
Posts: 3011 | From: A village of gardens | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Custard:
I've hardly ever seen Messy Church work as Church rather than as a club with worshippy bits badly bolted on.
It seems to me that this was a huge part of my parish's life from the 1900s through at least the 1970s.
There were the sports leagues (bowling, basketball, baseball, darts), the Men's Fellowship, the Girls' Sodality, the Girls' Friendly Society, the St. Vincent Guild of Acolytes, the various levels of Sunday School, the parish work-days, the Boy Scout and Cub Scoot troops, the committees for the Christmas Fair, the Christmas Pageant, and the summer fair.
Clubs, with devotion bolted onto the beginning and the end. This, of course, was when there were three full-time priests, four masses, plus evensong on a Sunday, plus the full round, and more, of daily office and mass during the week.
We are now greatly diminished in size, as folk find their sports, social needs, and entertainment elsewhere.
One reads in the parish newsletter of the 1920s, the priest complaining that folk no longer flock to the church because of the moving picture house, the radio, the phonograph, and the inexpensive streetcar.
Do we American Christians then pray for eight-dollar-a-gallon gasoline to fuel a resurgence of attendance and a re-flourishing of the clubs?
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Prester John
Shipmate
# 5502
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
Do we American Christians then pray for eight-dollar-a-gallon gasoline to fuel a resurgence of attendance and a re-flourishing of the clubs?
Thanks to car-centric suburban sprawl and the destruction of competent public transit systems in many cities over the past century I would think attending services would be an expensive and/or time consuming task for all and would only be undertaken by the most dedicated. What takes me a seven or eight minute drive would be a 45 minute to one hour on way trip on Sundays. As for the social aspect- I think we have something approximating that with the mega-churches and this may be my prejudices speaking but the results seem to leave a lot to be desired.
Posts: 884 | From: SF Bay Area | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
|
Posted
So, you tar my misty-eyed, nostalgia-soaked Golden Age with your keen, Mega-Church Brush, eh?
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Prester John
Shipmate
# 5502
|
Posted
Guilty as charged I suppose. You do pose an interesting scenario. If I was to worship at the nearest church I would be forced to swim the Tiber. I wonder what church life would look like if everyone was forced by necessity to attend the nearest place of worship. Maybe like the federated churches one finds in smaller communities? Messy church indeed!
Posts: 884 | From: SF Bay Area | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
|
Posted
Good question, that. Living in the compact city that I do, I would still choose (at my spry age) to walk the six miles to my Anglocatholic joint bypassing three other Episcopal parishes along the way. It's a twenty-minute bus ride and a twelve-minute automobile drive. I've often thought about the cost of old age driving me to a much smaller, less expensive city and how I would adapt spiritually to the parishes on offer there. I could always be Roman Catholic.
But, back to Messy Church, perhaps your comment makes me adjust my dim attitude to the catering-to-the-consumer-Christian approach some large churches have to offering dry-cleaning to child-care and everything-plus-espresso in between.
Is it like the Unmercenaries running hospitals and treating all and sundry?
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Prester John
Shipmate
# 5502
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
But, back to Messy Church, perhaps your comment makes me adjust my dim attitude to the catering-to-the-consumer-Christian approach some large churches have to offering dry-cleaning to child-care and everything-plus-espresso in between.
Is it like the Unmercenaries running hospitals and treating all and sundry?
I wouldn't abandon that view if I were you. There is growing criticism from among the original purveyors of mega-churches that the results are an inch-deep and a mile-wide. My main criticism with your Golden Age version and its modern equivalent is that it inevitably transforms the church into a high-minded social club and steers it away from its purpose of proclaiming the gospel. In your Golden Age version at least there was a whole lot of worship goin' on.
Posts: 884 | From: SF Bay Area | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
|
Posted
I'll grant that I have considerable discomfort in this my small burst of enthusiasm for—what to call it?—social service church, mega-style.
I guess I see some sort of 20th/21st century village in it. Everybody comes and participates to the extent they desire to or to the they can consent to the beliefs.
Everybody comes to the church shortly after birth, at marriage, and at the time of sickness and death. If they come at other times only to throw some darts, how is that different to the twice-a-year Christians we of the in-group only see at Christmas and Easter?
To push your riverine metaphor, perhaps I can be happy with wide and shallow, as long as the main channel is healthy, deep, and swift.
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jolly Jape:
Who says MC needs input from the dog-collars. As long as you aren't planning a service of Holy Communion within it, MC can be totally lay led.
Except that a significant number of clergy see this type of service as a very important part of their ministry. So are not going to want to hand it over to the laity.
--------------------
Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
|
Posted
It's not exactly messy but this sounds like a wonderful example of a children's service.
--------------------
Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
quote:
Originally posted by Jolly Jape:
Who says MC needs input from the dog-collars. As long as you aren't planning a service of Holy Communion within it, MC can be totally lay led.
Except that a significant number of clergy see this type of service as a very important part of their ministry. So are not going to want to hand it over to the laity.
So laity can't have a worship service they enjoy* because Father enjoys leading it, and therefore he does not want the lay to lead it (even though they are able to). It sounds dog in a mangerish to me. If I can't lead it due to time then I am not permitting anyone else to, and so you can't have it.
If there are lay people who are prepared to lead it solidly through the year, not just think it is a nice idea, then the answer should be "Go ahead then but if you can't supply one Sunday do not expect me to stand in." If they want to do some to specify how many and stick to it. So say they decide they want to do it on the first Sunday alternative months. That should then be all they do.
Jengie
*Believe me laity does not make the commitment to lead worship week in week out unless it is something they really want.
--------------------
"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
|
Posted
quote:
originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
the Girls' Friendly Society
Sounds like Anglo-Catholic love bombing.
quote:
originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
Do we American Christians then pray for eight-dollar-a-gallon gasoline to fuel a resurgence of attendance and a re-flourishing of the clubs?
ASA hasn't gone up along with ticket and concession prices at the moving picture house.
--------------------
Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Zacchaeus
Shipmate
# 14454
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
quote:
Originally posted by Jolly Jape:
Who says MC needs input from the dog-collars. As long as you aren't planning a service of Holy Communion within it, MC can be totally lay led.
Except that a significant number of clergy see this type of service as a very important part of their ministry. So are not going to want to hand it over to the laity.
I know quite a few MC's which are largely lay led. In many the clergy are still involved in the planning - eg keeping with other church seasons/celebrations/festivals to help with questions may have.
However after that they are not involved and they are content just to turn up on the day and be there. In order to be visable and available and to just plain meet the parishioners, who do not normally come to church.
It would be strange indeed if the church had a major mission event in which the church leaders were not involved and never turned up to...
Posts: 1905 | From: the back of beyond | Registered: Jan 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
jugular
Voice of Treason
# 4174
|
Posted
I think that, if one is to 'run' a messy church, then one needs to be clear what it is and what it isn't. The approach laid out by Lucy Moore in her books is not about church planting. It does not take into consideration the spirituality of the child, their inherent knowledge of God, nor how to create an environment wherein that is nurtured. Nor does it provide, over the long term, an environment in which new believers are catechised and formed. It is about providing a new brand of conventional 'outreach' activity, or community development activity. It's fun, attractive and well-branded.
At my parish we run Mainly Music with much the same outcomes as have been described relating to Messy Church. The formula has been unchanged for centuries - provide an entry point to the church, make it fun, non-threatening, but overtly about faith. Both Messy Church and Mainly Music (and multitudes of other activities) fit the formula.
But I would urge caution for those who see Messy Church as an appropriate way to teach and nurture children in faith. I utterly reject the assertion that Godly Play requires a child to already have factual knowledge about Christianity. Godly Play is built on the truth that children have inherent knowledge of God, and that our role as adults is to provide space and language to explore that experience.
So by all means run community development or outreach programs, but if you are expecting to form disciples, Messy Church alone won't cut it.
Posts: 2599 | From: Australia | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
|
Posted
The separate activity we have at church is called 'Tale at Teatime' which isn't messy at all as far as I can tell. But it is age-appropriate (based on storytelling).
--------------------
Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view
