|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: Choral Mattins
|
bib
Shipmate
# 13074
|
Posted
I really miss the beautiful service of the Anglican Choral Mattins, but on asking at church if we could do it, even occasionally, I was met with 'Oh, but what about the Eucharist Service?' When I was young, we didn't always celebrate the Eucharist at every morning service, but it seems to be obligatory now. I have suggested a compromise where we could occasionally begin with Mattins and move into the Eucharist part way if that would satisfy all parties. I have been asked by the Parish Council to put together a suggested format, but I'm not sure at which point we should cobble the services together. What do we omit, and what works best. Do any shipmates have experience in this who could give me some pointers. It is important to keep the best of both services so that people feel happy with the traditional sung Mattins and yet also feel happy to have their Eucharist need met. (This would be for our main morning service and I would point out that we also have an early morning Eucharist).
--------------------
"My Lord, my Life, my Way, my End, accept the praise I bring"
Posts: 1307 | From: Australia | Registered: Oct 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Emendator Liturgia
Shipmate
# 17245
|
Posted
Over the decades I have witnessed various formats of combined Mattins and Eucharist - many of the compilers of which should confess their manifold sins and errors: we often dubbed those beasties 'mangled mattins and mass'.
I do agree that we in the Anglican Church have abandoned some of our rich heritage in the erosion of the services of Choral Mattins and Evensong. Whilst the eucharist is my spiritual basis, I would treatsure a non-eucharistic service done well. Perhaps, despite some other threads here and there, it is the absence of good choirs or musicially competent and confident laity (and clergy) in many places that lies at the heart of the demise?
[ 14. October 2012, 05:34: Message edited by: Emendator Liturgia ]
--------------------
Don't judge all Anglicans in Sydney by prevailing Diocesan standards!
Posts: 401 | From: Sydney, Australia | Registered: Jul 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
|
Posted
IMHO mixing the two services doesn't really work, especially if you're thinking of combining BCP Mattins with a modern-rite Eucharist!
If there really is a demand for Choral Mattins, try having a separate service before or after the Eucharist - before is better, as Cranmer (at any rate) intended Mattins as a preparation for Holy Communion.
Ian J.
--------------------
Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
bib
Shipmate
# 13074
|
Posted
If we did as you suggest it would make for a very long morning, as the early morning Eucharist only has a short break before the main morning service. My preference would be for the occasional Choral Mattins instead of the Eucharist, given that the congo can attend the early morning service if they need to take Communion. However, there is resistance to this idea, which is why I've been asked to suggest how we could have a two in one service. I'm sceptical as to how it would work, but as they say, nothing ventured, nothing gained.
--------------------
"My Lord, my Life, my Way, my End, accept the praise I bring"
Posts: 1307 | From: Australia | Registered: Oct 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
|
Posted
In TEC the Eucharist is mandated by the 1979 BCP as the principal act of Christian worship on all Sundays and Holy Days. By extension, ISTM that one wouldn't occasionally do away with one of the parish masses in favour of choral mattins. I'd rather fit in an occasional choral mattins by moving the mass schedule about slightly but not doing away with any well attended mass for the Sunday. I've seen both places that do the frankenmass fairly well, though I agree that it's intrinsically a bit of a hatchet job; and places that throw in a choral mattins on the 5th Sunday when such occurs, at the expense of the normal late morning mass (usually the principal grownup service). To my mind, neither is a completely satisfactory solution.
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
|
Posted
It's largely a question of resources, ISTM. If you have either [a] two viable congregations, or [b] one congregation that is prepared for the long haul; PLUS a good (if not professional) choir, it is quite feasible to sing Choral Mattins followed (probably after a comfort break) by a Sung Eucharist. This is what they do at Chichester Cathedral (and doubtless others), and it works well: the Mattins congregation are not sacramentally-minded, appreciate 'dignified' worship and good preaching, and they get out of the way in good time for the (larger) congregation at the sung mass.
The only other time I have experienced Sung Mattins recently is when covering an interregnum at a local 'flagship' Anglo-catholic church. The pattern there was for the choir and clergy to sing BCP Morning Prayer to plainchant (including censing the altar, shrines of the patron saint and the BVM, and the congregation, during the Benedictus) all while the Sung Mass congregation was assembling. It was a bit bizarre but it worked fine.
If you go for a Choral Mattins at the expense of downgrading the Eucharist, ISTM that you short-change the congregation and unbalance the liturgy in a way that Cranmer never intended.
--------------------
Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Liturgylover
Shipmate
# 15711
|
Posted
Something that St Giles-in-the-Fields now does to replace its previous provision of weekly Choral matins at 10 and choral Eucharist at 11, is a once a month Choral Matins at 11 and Sung Eucharist instead of Evensong at 6.30. This also provides some diversity for the 2 choirs which each sing in either morning or evening.
St Mary Abbots still have the both services most weeks but once a month have Choral Matins leading into Eucharist. After the intercessions there is a hymn and then, iirc the Eucharistic Prayer (in traditional language) begins. It seemed to flow quite well though may not be liturgically correct.
Posts: 452 | From: North London | Registered: Jun 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
leo
Shipmate
# 1458
|
Posted
My current church's patronage was Simeon's trustees until it became the university church (and the patronage was swapped with another). To ease the transition from MP to HCV, acording to the old people who remember it and a booklet someone once showed me, they did:
Penitential section - dearly beloved through to absolution as a preparation.
Responses and venite as choir process in
Psalm(s)
OT, Benedictus, NT
Te Deum or Gloria
Collect, espistle, gradual, gospel etc. and then the rest of HC from 1928 PB.
--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
|
Posted
Choral Mattins has pretty much ceased to exist in my area - when I start to miss it too much I head for a cathedral. I can't join in out loud, but can sing along inside my head. I can remember most of the words - just.
--------------------
Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Stephen
Shipmate
# 40
|
Posted
Still exists in Bath Abbey though I think Chorister
Hereford Cathedral does it after the Choral Eucharist - I went there on one occasion - but tbh only a few select few
I suppose what could be done is to use Mattins as the Ministry of the Word, and omit the Peace so the last hymn will also be the offertory hymn ( it's usually the hymn during which the Elevation of the Plate occurs anyway, so it would fit)
I don't think it would fit though if you have a modern language Eucharist - the two styles would clash a little too obviously I suspect. It would work with something like CW in traditional language. Or as two separate services. But if it displaces the Eucharist in a parish which has a Sung Eucharist as the norm you may get people sloping off ........
--------------------
Best Wishes
Stephen
'Be still,then, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the nations and I will be exalted in the earth' Ps46 v10
Posts: 3954 | From: Alto C Clef Country | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
|
Posted
Or, if you're splicing Mattins and HC together, you could just use 1662 for both- but is 1662 now permitted in your province, Bib?
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
bib
Shipmate
# 13074
|
Posted
1662 is used for Wednesday Eucharist and of course for Choral Evensong. We are unable to grab the 5th Sunday services as they have already been claimed for the Family service group. I guess there just aren't enough days and times.
--------------------
"My Lord, my Life, my Way, my End, accept the praise I bring"
Posts: 1307 | From: Australia | Registered: Oct 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
|
Posted
Why is this always seen as either/or? And why the resistance to a service that lasts for more than 1 hour?
Try this: Matins as is up to the Creed; then add intercesions; Offertory can be where Sunday school or creche can come in and proceed on to rest of communion, using BCP.
It shouldn't take much, if any, longer, especially if you use the Jubilate instead of the Benedictus.
WHY are 5th Sundays grabbed by "family" types: why not have a sung BCP instead, moving MP to the said slot? Try it - after all, Cranmer is part of the heritage of the under 60s too!
--------------------
Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
ardmacha
Shipmate
# 16499
|
Posted
I have known people who are on the "fringe" of the church,sometimes wanting to be anonymous and not wanting to shake hands meet people and they do not want to show the commitment and devotion to worship at the Eucharist and yet they still long for worship in a traditional liturgical form. Mattins seems to help these people and it is sad to see it dropped.
I would love to know where Plainsong Mattins precedes the Eucharist (in a post above.)
Posts: 56 | From: England | Registered: Jun 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
|
Posted
We have said BCP Mattins at 930am on Sundays, with the Parish Mass following at 1030am (CW Order 1 with permitted Carflick bits...), so Mattins doesn't really fulfil its role as the congregation's preparation for the Mass. I'd rather have Mattins at 10am or even 1015am, but using the Franciscan Office that we have on weekdays - I am not personally a fan of BCP Mattins (far too long and wordy, but YMMV).
Having said that, we advertise on the Prayer Book Society website that, if the congregation at Mattins increases, we could easily and willingly add music. Plainsong would be my choice, so come, join us, and call my bluff!
Ian J.
--------------------
Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
|
Posted
With the clergy being spread more thinly between churches now, I wouldn't be surprised if the service of Morning Prayer didn't make a strong comeback. But given the spirit of the age, I fear it would be more an informal Service of the Word than traditional Mattins.
--------------------
Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320
|
Posted
Back in the mid 80's I wasn't a regular church goer, but I occasionally went to a church which had Choral Matins on three Sundays a month, and Choral Eucharist on the fourth Sunday. All BCP. After the Matins, there was always a short said communion beginning with, "Ye who do earnestly and sincerely repent you of your sins..."
So, if an Anglican church wanted Choral Matins, say once a month, it could follow it with a short communion afterwards. It would be difficult to dovetail a Prayer Book Matins with a CW Eucharist, but you could keep it all Prayer Book for that one week of the month.
--------------------
Yours in Christ
Paul
Posts: 6387 | From: White Cliffs Country | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
|
Posted
Is it my imagination or was there some provision in, I think, the 1928 (proposed CofE) Prayer Book for Mattins to lead into HC at 'ye that do truly and earnestly repent...'? Quick googling finds no answer!
--------------------
My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Why is this always seen as either/or? And why the resistance to a service that lasts for more than 1 hour?
Try this: Matins as is up to the Creed; then add intercesions; Offertory can be where Sunday school or creche can come in and proceed on to rest of communion, using BCP.
Yuck. I don't know about the 1662, but the US 1928 doesn't allow this (at least not in any rubric I can find). There is the option of saying the Office through the first or second canticle, and then "proceeding to the Communion," which I read as starting the service of HC from the beginning. It doesn't seem to me that there's a provision for swapping out MP for the Liturgy of the Word; if I'm wrong, then I'll accept correction.
quote:
It shouldn't take much, if any, longer, especially if you use the Jubilate instead of the Benedictus.
Double yuck! The Jubilate is a psalm, and the psalms come up in their turn (especially if you use the 30-day psalter as opposed to the "lectionary" psalter). Displacing a Gospel canticle with a psalm doesn't seem like sound liturgical practice to me, even if the rubrics do allow it.
--------------------
"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
|
Posted
Note, however that in the 1979 BCP - the current official book - the rubrics for the Holy Eucharist state that, "Morning or Evening Prayer may be used in place of all that precedes the Peace and Offertory, provided that a lesson from the Gospel is always included, and that the intercessions conform to the directions given for the Prayers of the People."
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
|
Posted
Point taken, LSK. I still don't like it, but that's neither here nor there since I don't use the 1979!
--------------------
"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
|
Posted
In 1662, the Jubilate and the Benedictus are alternatives. I think the assumption that you have to have the Benedictus comes from Common Worship Daily Prayer.
--------------------
Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
|
Posted
The Jubilate is an alternative, yes. But using the Benedictus as the second canticle preserves the ancient order of Lauds, from which MP is partially derived. Using only the Benedictus was A-C practice well before Common Worship was conceived, let alone published; both Lamburn & Dearmer suggest that the Jubilate be left to the psalter.
--------------------
"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
Shipmate
# 10745
|
Posted
All my life, I have found the attachment to the Jubilate by some churches that have/used to have Matins to be curious.
We have already been reminded on this thread that the gospel canticles are more preferential than the psalm canticles. At Evensong, why are the psalm canticles of Cantate Domino and Deus Miseratur which may be used as alternatives to Magnificat and Nunc Dimittis respectively, are seldom to never to be found? I find this inconsistancy to be completely illogical.
When I was a boy in the 1950s, the choir in which I was a member had Matins once a month; the Te Deum was replaced by the Benedicite in Advent and Lent, which was to be expected. But the Benedictus was never ever used and the Jubilate was the invariable canticle after the second lesson. Even in my salad days at that time, I found the Benedictus to be a curious exclusion.
There would be some justification to using the Jubilate when the words of the Benedictus are read in the second lesson once or twice a year. It may be because the Jubilate is shorter than the Benedictus and that the Jubilate has been set to choral settings as opposed to Anglican or plain chant, which are reasons why 'J' rather than 'B' canticle may be given an airing at least sometimes.
--------------------
Joyeuses Pâques! Frohe Ostern! Buona Pasqua! ˇFelices Pascuas! Happy Easter!
Posts: 1946 | From: Surrey UK | Registered: Dec 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
There would be some justification to using the Jubilate when the words of the Benedictus are read in the second lesson once or twice a year.
This occurs once a year in the 1928 lectionary, on the feast of St John the Baptist. Substituting the Jubilate on this occasion makes perfect sense, to avoid the same text coming twice in the service.
--------------------
"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
leo
Shipmate
# 1458
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
At Evensong, why are the psalm canticles of Cantate Domino and Deus Miseratur which may be used as alternatives to Magnificat and Nunc Dimittis respectively, are seldom to never to be found? I find this inconsistancy to be completely illogical.
To my horror, I have encountered these psalms used instead of the gospel canticles one per week during the Edington Musical festival AND the altar being censed during whichever one comes between the lessons.
--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
The Jubilate is an alternative, yes. But using the Benedictus as the second canticle preserves the ancient order of Lauds, from which MP is partially derived. Using only the Benedictus was A-C practice well before Common Worship was conceived, let alone published; both Lamburn & Dearmer suggest that the Jubilate be left to the psalter.
I can't comment on other provinces, but in England, the 1662 Book is still authoritative. The notion that we and people like us have arcane knowledge so that we know better than ++ Cramner and the formularies of our church is a symptom of something that has been wrong with our ecclesial communion for c170 years.
--------------------
Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
The Jubilate is an alternative, yes. But using the Benedictus as the second canticle preserves the ancient order of Lauds, from which MP is partially derived. Using only the Benedictus was A-C practice well before Common Worship was conceived, let alone published; both Lamburn & Dearmer suggest that the Jubilate be left to the psalter.
I can't comment on other provinces, but in England, the 1662 Book is still authoritative. The notion that we and people like us have arcane knowledge so that we know better than ++ Cramner and the formularies of our church is a symptom of something that has been wrong with our ecclesial communion for c170 years.
Well, the 1662 book is a revision of Cranmer to begin with, so clearly someone knew better than the late Archbishop. And the rubrics of the 1662 state, concerning the Benedictus : "And after [the second lesson], the Hymn following [i.e. the Benedictus]; except when that shall happen to be read in the Chapter for the day, or for the Gospel on Saint John Baptist's Day." That seems to take for granted that the Benedictus would be the normative second canticle.
Going back further, the 1549 BCP does not give the Jubilate Deo as an alternative second canticle; it first shows up in the 1552, most likely because the Puritans objected to singing anything that was not a psalm.
--------------------
"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
The notion that we and people like us have arcane knowledge so that we know better than ++ Cramner and the formularies of our church is a symptom of something that has been wrong with our ecclesial communion for c170 years.
If Cranmer had been a Shipmate, things might have been different...
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
|
Posted
Well indeed. Not necessarily better, but certainly different!
--------------------
Flinging wide the gates...
Posts: 10335 | From: Hanging in the balance of the reality of man | Registered: Jun 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
|
Posted
Yes, we used to have the alternate canticles in Advent and Lent, both at Mattins and Evensong. But not any more. My favourite was the Benedicite to a four-part chant.
--------------------
Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
georgiaboy
Shipmate
# 11294
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
Yes, we used to have the alternate canticles in Advent and Lent, both at Mattins and Evensong. But not any more. My favourite was the Benedicite to a four-part chant.
Ever hear the Benedicite in the choral setting by Leopold Stokowski? We used to trot it out once a year. It's so larky that the choristers could hardly get through it without giggling.
You know, there are days when I really miss fully choral Morning Prayer. (But they are few.)
![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif)
--------------------
You can't retire from a calling.
Posts: 1675 | From: saint meinrad, IN | Registered: Apr 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
leo
Shipmate
# 1458
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
The Jubilate is an alternative, yes. But using the Benedictus as the second canticle preserves the ancient order of Lauds, from which MP is partially derived. Using only the Benedictus was A-C practice well before Common Worship was conceived, let alone published; both Lamburn & Dearmer suggest that the Jubilate be left to the psalter.
I can't comment on other provinces, but in England, the 1662 Book is still authoritative. The notion that we and people like us have arcane knowledge so that we know better than ++ Cramner and the formularies of our church is a symptom of something that has been wrong with our ecclesial communion for c170 years.
We DO know MORE than Cranmer - a lot of liturgical research, especially into 4th century Jerusalem usage, did not begin until the 20th Century.
--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
Shipmate
# 10745
|
Posted
Further to my post above recalling Matins from my younger days, when the Benedicite was used, it was invariably sung to 'Goldsmith shortened', so that, "Praise Him and magnify Him for ever" were rendered after every third verse. I like this setting, but I do not have the opportunity of hearing it now.
The Venite used to be sung to Anglican chant, but the final verses were omitted all the year round, so that it ended at "... we are the people of his pasture and the sheep of his hand." (I quote from memory.) "Today if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts..." onwards, never saw the light of day. In some churches, the Venite is used taking in those first seven verses only most of the year, but the final verses added during the penetential seasons, which to me, makes sense.
One practice at Matins that I am not keen on, is the substitution of a hymn for one of the canticles and I see no reason for it. Why is a hymn substituted in this way at Matins but never at Evensong? For me, that is another inconsistency that does not make sense.
--------------------
Joyeuses Pâques! Frohe Ostern! Buona Pasqua! ˇFelices Pascuas! Happy Easter!
Posts: 1946 | From: Surrey UK | Registered: Dec 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
|
Posted
I suppose you could always substitute an appropriate hymn, such as 'Tell out my soul' instead of the Magnificat and 'Faithful vigil ended' instead of the Nunc Dimittis. Rather like people who substitute Psalm 23 with Crimond.
--------------------
Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Morlader
Shipmate
# 16040
|
Posted
When "my" choir sings - once a year - at a tiny church for their summer "Epilogue" service, an abbreviated EP, we do a choir setting of either the Mag or the Nunc with Tell out my soul or Faithful vigil ended for the other. Singing both to a setting seems ott there, and singing both to even Bishop Timothy's versifications makes the congo wonder why the choir is there.
Back to morning canticles, I learnt the E W Naylor Benedicite many years ago at a very "stuffy" Matins at a posh church in the London commuter belt. We did it, of course, with straight faces, but it was a strain. It is a 'shortened' setting ("praise him and magnify him ..." occurring rarely, and with overlapping verses too): the organist has a lot of fun, with low triplet pedals for the dragons and all deeps and trills for the birds.
I think we normally sang Benedictus, not Jubilate, and Te Deum except in Lent, when we did said Naylor Benedicite.
--------------------
.. to utmost west.
Posts: 858 | From: Not England | Registered: Nov 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Episcoterian
Shipmate
# 13185
|
Posted
May I confess a sin?
My daily devotion is usually to pray the St. Bede's Breviary Morning Prayer.
I invariably skip the Benedicite when it comes up. Or replace it with another canticle. I just can't stand it.
--------------------
"We cannot let individualism make corporate worship impossible!" (iMonk)
I'm on Facebook too!
Posts: 286 | From: Franca, SP, Brazil | Registered: Nov 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
Shipmate
# 10745
|
Posted
Tell out my Soul and Faithful Vigil Ended - I forgot to mention these metrical versions of Mag. and Nunc., which I would have no objection to sometimes. But I think these would lend themselves more to sung as opposed to choral Evensong. The same would apply to The Lord is my Shepherd as an alternative rendering of the 23rd Psalm.
However, as far as I am aware, no metrical version has been written for the Benedictus or any other Matins canticle. The hymns that find their way into Matins replacing a canticle, may be a seasonal hymn for the time of year, or else a morning hymn at that time of day.
--------------------
Joyeuses Pâques! Frohe Ostern! Buona Pasqua! ˇFelices Pascuas! Happy Easter!
Posts: 1946 | From: Surrey UK | Registered: Dec 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Rampant Wonder
Shipmate
# 11159
|
Posted
Regarding the happening - or lack thereof - of Choral Mattins on Sundays: In my parish Mattins is said every Sunday prior to Mass beginning. Were Choral Mattins something that folk wanted, the schedule could very easily be adjusted to accommodate both services happening, even the longer choral version of the office.
Parishioners are encouraged to make Mass their principal Sunday service, and the vast majority do with some even attending both services, but from time to time there are those who attend Mattins and call it a morning.
Provided the clergy, congregation, and choir are willing, could this not be done nearly anywhere?
Posts: 117 | Registered: Mar 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Basilica
Shipmate
# 16965
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
However, as far as I am aware, no metrical version has been written for the Benedictus or any other Matins canticle. The hymns that find their way into Matins replacing a canticle, may be a seasonal hymn for the time of year, or else a morning hymn at that time of day.
I sang one less than an hour ago! Common Worship canticles 55b (Kingsfold - I heard the voice of Jesus say) and 55c (Corvedale - There's a wideness in God's mercy) are both metrical rewritings of the Benedictus.
Posts: 403 | Registered: Feb 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
|
Posted
Good to see you RW!
What you describe is what happened in my erstwhile parish except that it was held the first Sunday of the month, and weekly in Lent and Advent.
--------------------
Flinging wide the gates...
Posts: 10335 | From: Hanging in the balance of the reality of man | Registered: Jun 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
seasick
...over the edge
# 48
|
Posted
There are several metrical versions of the Benedictus - I quite often use Michael Perry's one. There are also several metrical versions of the Te Deum, including Christopher Idle's "God we praise you, God we bless you" set to Ode for Joy.
--------------------
We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
Posts: 5769 | From: A world of my own | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
leo
Shipmate
# 1458
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Morlader:
Back to morning canticles, I learnt the E W Naylor Benedicite many years ago at a very "stuffy" Matins at a posh church in the London commuter belt. We did it, of course, with straight faces, but it was a strain. It is a 'shortened' setting ("praise him and magnify him ..." occurring rarely, and with overlapping verses too): the organist has a lot of fun, with low triplet pedals for the dragons and all deeps and trills for the birds.
I sang that as a choirboy and always looked forward to Lent because of it.
--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
leo
Shipmate
# 1458
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Episcoterian:
May I confess a sin?....I invariably skip the Benedicite when it comes up. Or replace it with another canticle. I just can't stand it.
I, too, am a sinner. If saying the benedicite on my own, i miss out the refrain for most of the time and gabble through '• All ye Works of the Lord, Angels Heavens Waters Powers Sun and Moon Stars Showers and Dew, Winds Fire and Heat, Winter and Summer Dews and Frosts, etc '
In mitigation, I try to use my imagination and picture each item.
--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Episcoterian:
May I confess a sin?....I invariably skip the Benedicite when it comes up. Or replace it with another canticle. I just can't stand it.
I, too, am a sinner. If saying the benedicite on my own, i miss out the refrain for most of the time and gabble through '• All ye Works of the Lord, Angels Heavens Waters Powers Sun and Moon Stars Showers and Dew, Winds Fire and Heat, Winter and Summer Dews and Frosts, etc '
In mitigation, I try to use my imagination and picture each item.
I'd say that's in the spirit of the proposed 1928 BCP, which had rubrics allowing omission of the refrain in most verses. I assume this is what allows the "condensed" settings such as those of Harris and Sumsion (both of which are wonderful, BTW).
Posts: 3823 | Registered: May 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
|
Posted
Aye, me as well. Every two or four refrains seem quite enough.
--------------------
Flinging wide the gates...
Posts: 10335 | From: Hanging in the balance of the reality of man | Registered: Jun 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
Shipmate
# 10745
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Basilica:
quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
However, as far as I am aware, no metrical version has been written for the Benedictus or any other Matins canticle. The hymns that find their way into Matins replacing a canticle, may be a seasonal hymn for the time of year, or else a morning hymn at that time of day.
I sang one less than an hour ago! Common Worship canticles 55b (Kingsfold - I heard the voice of Jesus say) and 55c (Corvedale - There's a wideness in God's mercy) are both metrical rewritings of the Benedictus.
Though I am familiar with both those hymns, I have never seen them as being in the context of metrical settings of the Benedictus.
God we praise you, God we bless you Seasick reminds me of this hymn as being a likely version of a Te Deum metrical setting.
I have already referred to Goldsmith's shortened version of the Benedicite. Any shipmate familiar with that will know what I mean when it comes to Praise him and magnify him for ever ony after every third verse.
--------------------
Joyeuses Pâques! Frohe Ostern! Buona Pasqua! ˇFelices Pascuas! Happy Easter!
Posts: 1946 | From: Surrey UK | Registered: Dec 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
quote:
Originally posted by Basilica:
Though I am familiar with both those hymns, I have never seen them as being in the context of metrical settings of the Benedictus.
I think Basilica only meant that these were the tunes suggested for the metrical versions. At least I hope so as the words are hardly related!
--------------------
Flinging wide the gates...
Posts: 10335 | From: Hanging in the balance of the reality of man | Registered: Jun 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Basilica
Shipmate
# 16965
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
quote:
Originally posted by Basilica:
Though I am familiar with both those hymns, I have never seen them as being in the context of metrical settings of the Benedictus.
I think Basilica only meant that these were the tunes suggested for the metrical versions. At least I hope so as the words are hardly related!
That's precisely what I meant!
The texts are on this page.
Posts: 403 | Registered: Feb 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view
