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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Ablutions - when and by whom?
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
I have noticed a trend for delaying the reverent consumption of the remains consecrated elements until after the service, when people have had coffee and gone home.
I have always assumed that TARPing = taking the ablutions in the right place, should be immediately after the communion. Also, that only the celebrant performed them.
The Alcuin Club published a 260 page book on this, available here, though I don't recommend it for any but liturgical 'geeks'.
From this book, I gather that it was usual practice, East and West, for the consumption of the remains and cleansing of the vessels to take place later on the same day as the celebration and was sometimes delegated to deacons or subdeacons.
1662 ordered the consumption (but made no mention of cleansing) after the blessing. Some even argued that the elements were to remain on the 'table' for the prayer of oblation, since that was originally part of the canon, and the Gloria, since this was worship of the lamb, present on the table. Also, that the prayer of thanksgiving referred to 'these (sic) holy mysteries.
(The 1552 book suggested that the curate could take the elements home to consume during a normal meal but this book was only authorised by parliament and its authority was thus disputed by many)
So my catholic scruples have been challenged.
How common is this deferring of the ablutions? When does your church do them? Who takes part?
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Amos
Shipmate
# 44
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Posted
Looking at the practices of two great A-C shrines, The Church of the Advent on Brimmer St in Boston TARPs, while Mary Mags in Oxford TAWPs. At the Advent the ablutions are done by the priest (with the aid of SMs and servers). At Mary Mags the ablutions are done by the servers after the service. Or at least all this was the case ten years ago.
In Summerisle we TARP, but I'm not an absolutist about it, and can imagine situations in which TAWPing would make better sense.
Salvation doesn't ride on this one.
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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
In the modern Roman Rite, the vessels may be purified either after communion or in the sacristy after Mass (GIRM 163, 183). Either way, they may be purified by any priest, deacon or instituted acolyte. That was part of how I earned my keep at the parish I was staying at last summer! (If I purified, the celebrant could take some prayer time and then start the concluding rites while I was still purifying).
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
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Basilica
Shipmate
# 16965
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Posted
I don't like doing the washing up (so to speak) in front of the congregation. Apart from taking a long time (especially if you have more than one team administering communion), it looks very undignified. Especially if those doing the ablutions imagine themselves over the kitchen sink, with their elbows flying everywhere as they do some rather vigorous scrubbing. The effect is doubled if there is a large amount of wine left over and the priest has to neck it.
I very much prefer taking the consecrated elements either into a sacristy or into a side chapel and doing the consumption and ablutions there, either after the service or by servers/eucharistic assistants while the service continues. Much more dignified, and the priest can then go and lead the concluding rites without a five minute delay.
The ablutions have absolutely no symbolic significance: it is a purely functional moment in the service, so dignity and seemliness are paramount concerns.
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
I suspect the ablutions should be done
by the priest
at the altar
with the assistance of the servers
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Basilica:
I very much prefer taking the consecrated elements either into a sacristy or into a side chapel and doing the consumption and ablutions there, either after the service or by servers/eucharistic assistants while the service continues.
That seems to be the norm in CofE churches that are lower than middle. Priest arranges the bits and pieces on the table and covers them with a fancy cloth which no doubt has a name. After the service churchwardens or someone deputed to do it takes them into vestry and washes them. If there is only a little bread and wine left the priest and/or other servers finish it at the end of Communion, if there is quite a lot it gets consumed afterwards.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
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Amos
Shipmate
# 44
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Posted
It's also the norm in cathedrals and at really big services--Christmas and Easter at King's College Chapel, for instance. In a parish church on a usual Sunday it can generally be done at the altar after communion.
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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
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3rdFooter
Shipmate
# 9751
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Posted
When there is only the president, no deacon or servers, we do the consumption and ablutions there and then after the distribution.
If we have a deacon, they do the consumption at the side alter* while the service continues. Servers assist.
I actually like a liturgical pause between the distribution and the post-communion. It gives space to reflect on the Eucharist.
*It's a barn of a building. We have a smaller alter and chairs away to the side which are used for smaller services. Where the side chapel would be if they hadn't burnt the chancel down in the 1960's
[ 21. October 2012, 20:00: Message edited by: 3rdFooter ]
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
I suspect the ablutions should be done
by the priest
at the altar
with the assistance of the servers
Meanwhile, what's the deacon up to?
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Meanwhile, what's the deacon up to?
Most churches don't have the luxury of one.
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
We do (in the form of one or other of our 2 Readers), but the ablutions are usually done by the priest, at the altar, with the assistance of a server. I take the point that the liturgical deacon could do the job, and it would not be at all inconvenient for us to use the adjacent Lady Chapel for the purpose. It would look a deal neater, and would give the deacon something else to do!
Ian J.
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Meanwhile, what's the deacon up to?
Most churches don't have the luxury of one.
Phooey.
It's not a luxury.
Every parish has at least one deacon already. It's up to the idiot bishop to come around and lay hands on the people the parish puts in front of him turning de facto into de jure.
[Do I need to English that last sentence?]
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Basilica
Shipmate
# 16965
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Basilica:
I very much prefer taking the consecrated elements either into a sacristy or into a side chapel and doing the consumption and ablutions there, either after the service or by servers/eucharistic assistants while the service continues.
That seems to be the norm in CofE churches that are lower than middle. Priest arranges the bits and pieces on the table and covers them with a fancy cloth which no doubt has a name. After the service churchwardens or someone deputed to do it takes them into vestry and washes them. If there is only a little bread and wine left the priest and/or other servers finish it at the end of Communion, if there is quite a lot it gets consumed afterwards.
Ha! I'm definitely not lower than middle! I wouldn't want to leave consecrated elements on the altar and then essentially ignore them. Unless we're doing benediction, obviously.
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
I am a bit elastic with this one.
1. The Old Rite - meaning American or English Missal - is celebrated eastward facing and I would do them immediately after the Communion of the people. As the ministers are facing east it does not appear too much of a mess from the Nave.
2. With straight 1928 BCP I tend to favour doing the ablutions after the blessing during the concluding hymn before leaving the altar. That seems to be the plain meaning of the rubric.
3. The Modern Rite has a very quick ending - basically the post-communion prayer and the dismissal with an optional blessing. Given that short ending, it seems gratuitous to delay things by 'doing the washing-up' at the altar before the end of Mass. I would be inclined to put the remaining elements in a safe place and deal with them immediately after the concluding rites. However, if there is no 'safe place' I am back to the 1928 BCP method, or very swift and functional TARP-ing of the ablutions according to GIRM practice.
My tendancy to change method reflects the fact that I am aware of the fact that the Missal, the BCP, and the modern rite are all articulated a little differently. Therefore jamming the liturgical customs of one on to the others can (and does) backfire.
PD
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Meanwhile, what's the deacon up to?
Most churches don't have the luxury of one.
Phooey.
It's not a luxury.
Every parish has at least one deacon already. It's up to the idiot bishop to come around and lay hands on the people the parish puts in front of him turning de facto into de jure.
Au contraire. I don't think half the parishes in this diocese have a deacon. Around here, even the vocational diaconate requires a full-blown discernment process taking several months, another several months' hiatus while you ... I don't know ... think about it ... and then a couple years' worth of weekly Deacon School. (And this scheme is not due to our bishop, but rather the Commission on Ordained Ministry.)
quote:
[Do I need to English that last sentence?]
No, but the use of "English" as a verb, on the other hand. . . .
[ 22. October 2012, 01:48: Message edited by: Mamacita ]
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
quote:
Mamacita says:
Au contraire and the rest
I'm sorry I wasn't more plain, but your post fully supports my whine. quote:
full-blown ... process ... several months ... another several months ...hiatus ... a couple of years ... due to [some] Commission ...
I did not mean to say there was a deacon in every parish tending to the trash bins and visiting the sick and taking their proper part in the liturgy.
What I mean to say is that in every single parish there is at least one person carrying out authentic diaconal ministry, who ought to be made a deacon, tomorrow, if not sooner.
That the Church is deprived of their ordained ministry is a crime caused by an appalling clericalism perpetrated by idiot bishops around the world and their complicit (and largely lay) commissions and committees.
The diaconate in Anglican churches is moribund verging on fully dead. It'll whimper out a pitiful death through hiatuses and process-rotted discernment inflicted by committees who wouldn't recognize the Holy Spirit if he bit them on the ass/arse.
Ooooh, bite marks! This calls for another committee and more discernment. Let's all check our calendars.
I'm sorry to direct friendly fire in your direction, Mamacita; but, it was your head that popped up above the parapet.
While I'm at it, I'll point out that the Shorter Oxford English Dictionary gives English as a transitive verb, attested as early as late Middle English (1350-1469). You'll be happy to know you can find Englishize, too, a few headwords down.
[ 22. October 2012, 19:38: Message edited by: The Silent Acolyte ]
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
Much as I have a lot of sympathy for your views, TSA, I think we've strayed slightly from the point re: Ablutions... nudge-nudge ![[Paranoid]](graemlins/paranoid.gif)
dj_ordinaire, Eccles host
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
Apologies for my share of the tangenting. (Tangentizing?)
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
dj_ordinaire, indeed I have.
So, then, tarp, Tarp, Tarp, TARP!
[ 22. October 2012, 20:39: Message edited by: The Silent Acolyte ]
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
Ooooh, bite marks! This calls for another committee and more discernment. Let's all check our calendars.
This is the way the world ends.
This is the way the world ends.
This is the way the world ends.
Not with a bang but a whimper.
-T.S. Eliot
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-Og: King of Bashan
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iamchristianhearmeroar
Shipmate
# 15483
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Posted
At our liberal catholic place in SE London ablutions are done after communion in the lady chapel by an assistant priest (if present) and/or servers.
On a related note, as servers we have to thoroughly wash the communion vessels with hot water after the end of the service in the vicar's vestry, which is fine. But I often notice the corporal laid out on the vesting table with quite a large number of crumbs on it from the fraction. We use large hosts, the kind that break into 24 pieces. You can say what you like about the rights and wrongs of using large breads, but what should I do? Consume the crumbs (which I have been doing) or just fold up the corporal and leave it in the burse? I also don't feel it's my place to mention anything to the celebrant...
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
I'm all for large hosts, but also for people ironing the corporals the right way round, so that they fold up with any crumbs inside instead of dropping them all over the altar. But as long as the paten, or other receptacle, is big enough to take the large hosts, there is no reason why there should be any crumbs on the corporal anyway. They can be easily rinsed off the paten with water at the ablutions. If I do notice any on the corporal I just moisten my finger and pick them up.
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otyetsfoma
Shipmate
# 12898
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Posted
If anyone is interested in the Orthodox practice. the final consumption and ablutions is to be done by the deacon if there is one after the prayer "before the ambo". If there is no deacon one of the priests must abstain (after his communion) from the "zapivka" (unconsecrated bread and wine, intended to wash the Holy Things down) so as to remain fasting until all is consumed. If there is only one priest the final consumption is delayed until after the sermon, announcements and distribution of antidoron. But it must be done by a deacon or priest who is still fasting.
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iamchristianhearmeroar
Shipmate
# 15483
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
If I do notice any on the corporal I just moisten my finger and pick them up.
Yes me too. I think of the servers I am probably the only one who does. And the corporals are properly ironed so no particles are lost at least.
We have a large paten which is easily big enough to catch any crumbs during the fraction. I can't very well ask the celebrant to take more care to break the hosts over the paten though...
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Percy B
Shipmate
# 17238
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Posted
In some countries there's a problem for celebrants who have to go to another church, driving. No drink driving.
Personally I can see no problem in laity consuming the Remains after the celebration, or as the service continues.
Do any Anglican churches officially say it must be done by a priest?
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Mary, a priest??
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Percy B:
Do any Anglican churches officially say it must be done by a priest?
In the USA, the BCP says (p. 409): "...[T]he celebrant or deacon, and other communicants, reverently eat and drink [the remaining consecrated Bread and Wine], either after the Communion of the people or after the Dismissal."
If this is read strictly, I think there must be either the celebrant or deacon plus two other communicants involved. In our place, it's the celebrant, deacon, and subdeacon at Solemn Mass and just the celebrant at Sung or Low Mass.
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
Common Worship just says 'any consecrated bread and wine which is not required for purposes of communion is consumed...' It does't say by whom, which is sensible. I've never understood it to mean just the priest.
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american piskie
Shipmate
# 593
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amos:
Looking at the practices of two great A-C shrines, The Church of the Advent on Brimmer St in Boston TARPs, while Mary Mags in Oxford TAWPs. At the Advent the ablutions are done by the priest (with the aid of SMs and servers). At Mary Mags the ablutions are done by the servers after the service. Or at least all this was the case ten years ago.
In Summerisle we TARP, but I'm not an absolutist about it, and can imagine situations in which TAWPing would make better sense.
Salvation doesn't ride on this one.
Times change and we in them. At SMM the deacon deals with the ablutions at a side altar immediately after the communion.
An awful distraction, imho: now that the modern rites don't do crab-catching during the EP it seems perverse to smuggle all the busy elbow-work back in at a later stage.
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by otyetsfoma:
If anyone is interested in the Orthodox practice. the final consumption and ablutions is to be done by the deacon if there is one after the prayer "before the ambo". If there is no deacon one of the priests must abstain (after his communion) from the "zapivka" (unconsecrated bread and wine, intended to wash the Holy Things down) so as to remain fasting until all is consumed. If there is only one priest the final consumption is delayed until after the sermon, announcements and distribution of antidoron. But it must be done by a deacon or priest who is still fasting.
I came to share this, Otyets Foma, to find that you had beaten me to it. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
I would only add that, (and, as a priest, you will know better than I), in my observations, the deferring of the consumption of the Holy Things by the priest until after the Liturgy is only done in cases where Psalm 33 is omitted from the Liturgy. Where Psalm 33 is sung, I have seen the celebrant (in cases where he is unassisted by a deacon) consume the Holy Things at this point.
Sadly, the proliferation of abbreviations means that the former situation is more usually the case.
On a related note, I always wondered what happens with the Holy Things when there is an outdoor procession immediately after the Liturgy, due to the concern about leaving them unattended. Then I saw this video yesterday from Fr Seraphim Gan's parish. During the processional moleben (whih runs from about 1.18.00) it seems that one of the protodeacons did not take part in the procession when it went outside but rather stayed in the altar to consume the Gifts.
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Carys
Ship's Celticist
# 78
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Posted
We TARP midweek and TAWP on a Sunday. MIdweek, priest finishes off the elements while the server (a verger) opens the bar to the sanctuary before they return to the credence table and help with the ablutions. Chalice etc then reveiled and one priest passes the set to the server to put on the credence table while another carries it, and the others leave it on the altar. On a Sunday (2 ciboria and 2 chalices, often a fair amount left over), the vessels end up in the vestry and the 'floating' verger (who is not functioning as a server but as a verger) counts the left over wafers to calculate the number of communicants while the post communion prayers and final hymn and blessing happen. When the other verger (who is in the procession qua verger) appears they usually find some wine at least to finish off. I do try and make it to the altar rail to receive, but at least once it hasn't happened and them making one's communion from the left overs is a bit weird.
Carys
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Meerkat
Suricata suricatta
# 16117
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Posted
For the majority of our 'non-BCP' Eucharists, the ablutions are performed by the Rector and the Server (often me), during the final hymn - which is sung immediately following the distribution. The Rector usually 'consumes', but if there is a large remainder, the Server will assist.
If the service is the second of the day (our Rector serves 5 parishes), then he will ask the Server or Warden to consume, as he will have consumed at the earlier service.
At the early-morning BCP Eucharist, the Rector consumes and performs the ablutions with the Server immediately after distribution, whilst the congregation wait in silence.
If the Celebrant is someone other than our Rector, the ablutions are usually left until the end of the service, when the Server or a Warden (me or the other one... we are both Servers and Administrators of the Chalice) will consume and clean up.
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
When an undergraduate, it was TAWP at the College Communion (by the chapel wardens at a table on which I placed a white cloth and a candle), TARP at the daily Communions.
Everywhere else I've ever worshipped on a regular basis, it's TARP by the clergy at the altar.
If there's a lot left over on a regular basis, my advice would be to start with less!
Thurible
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
While I'm at it, I'll point out that the Shorter Oxford English Dictionary gives English as a transitive verb, attested as early as late Middle English (1350-1469). You'll be happy to know you can find Englishize, too, a few headwords down.
Disgusted. Now I am shocked. OUP of all people.
I always thought that in the great 'ise' - 'ize' debate, the OUP + all real pedants insist that it only permissible to use 'ize' where the suffix is being added to a Greek word, rendering into English 'izein' even if that particular form doesn't exist for that word in the original Greek.
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
If there's a lot left over on a regular basis, my advice would be to start with less!
Thurible
If only. We had a curate (from America) who believed that ALL the wine in a cruet should be poured into the chalice at the offertory. (Even for a low mass with four people)
Don't know whether that is a custom in some places.
[ 15. January 2013, 15:07: Message edited by: leo ]
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
If only. We had a curate (from America) who believed that ALL the wine in a cruet should be poured into the chalice at the offertory. (Even for a low mass with four people)
We had one of those. I started just putting a couple of centimetres in for weekday Masses.
Thurible
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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
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Carys
Ship's Celticist
# 78
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Posted
If it's a priest pouring in all or most of cruet, and I know one of them, then yes, put less out, but sometimes it's had to judge amounts. We have 100+ communicants and quite a few non communicants and two stations, 4 chalices so getting the level right is hard.
I forgot 8am in many earlier statement, title it's lady chapel tarps high altar tawps
Carys
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O Lord, you have searched me and know me
You know when I sit and when I rise
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
What's the reasoning behind that particular quirk? Is it something along the lines of "If it's been offered by the people it's going to be consecrated", as some sort of exaggerated extension of the idea that the whole rite is consecratory?
If so, I find it misguided. It won't bring about the end of the world but it does seem to betray a poor understanding of what is happening liturgically.
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
Use wine of sufficient quality and I'm sure nobody will grumble!
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Flinging wide the gates...
Posts: 10335 | From: Hanging in the balance of the reality of man | Registered: Jun 2003
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georgiaboy
Shipmate
# 11294
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Posted
I've only worshipped in one parish that TAWP'd, and that was when using the 1928 BCP. At least in that venue, the 'fair linen cloth' that covered the not-yet-consumed Elements was called the 'Post-Communion Veil,' which was, I believe how they were identified in the Mary Moore catalogue. They were just like a corporal, only a little larger, and with the cross in the center.
Unless my memory is faulty (which is possible) I seem to remember that the ablutions were done during the Gloria in excelsis, which would not be in accordance with the rubrics.
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You can't retire from a calling.
Posts: 1675 | From: saint meinrad, IN | Registered: Apr 2006
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
Our vicar in my teenage years was I suppose a 'Prayer Book Catholic'. He always covered the elements after communion in such a white cloth (as per the rubrics). He would then give the blessing standing to one side of the altar (so as not to turn his back on Our Lord), making the sign of the cross with his right hand and 'plugging himself in' to the altar with his left. Then he would do the ablutions. Then he would read the Last Gospel!
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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ChippedChalice
Shipmate
# 14057
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
In our place, it's the celebrant, deacon, and subdeacon at Solemn Mass and just the celebrant at Sung or Low Mass.
Oblatus didn't mention, but certainly could have, that at our place the ablutions are EXCEEDLING seemly.
The whole business takes place at the High Altar with the sacred ministers backs to us, while the congregation kneels and sings a hymn. It's a time for quiet reflection and worship for us and not at all distracting.
Posts: 131 | From: Chicago | Registered: Aug 2008
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Mama Thomas
Shipmate
# 10170
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
We had a curate (from America) who believed that ALL the wine in a cruet should be poured into the chalice at the offertory. (Even for a low mass with four people)
Don't know whether that is a custom in some places.
I've seen people do that and wonder why on earth. In some churches I have seen servers who had been trained to up end the cruet into the chalice and then hand the chalice to the priest. I was thinking an unholy double you-tea-eff.
The ablutions surely are better when everyone is facing east, but even in elderly congregations where only the priest faces west, ablutions don't have to be fussy. Some organists are trained to keep and eye on the priest during the ablutions and adjust his or her playing accordingly. This is beautiful.
After last communion, just finish the consecrated hosts, scoop corporal with paten, tap paten's or ciborium's crumbs into chalice, swirl carefully, pick up paten with left hand and hold under chin, drain chalice. Place paten down, thrust chalice towards server who pours in some wine, draw arm back, swirl, pick up paten and hold under chin and drink. Pick up purificator, wrap around chalice, turn to face server(s), still holding fingers and thumbs together, receive wine, slightly lifting or twirling fingers to indicate "enough," do the same with the water, turn back to the alarm, gently wiping thumbs on corporal, picking up paten with left hand and holding under chin and chalice with right and drink contents. Clean chalice and paten somewhere in between cursorily and sanitarily (it's going to get done properly after the service--you're just consuming the consecrated elements that aren't set aside for reservation).
Open wadded purificator and replace on chalice. (Wadding it up inside the chalice makes for an ungainly "clunk" when the paten is placed on top. Place paten on top, move chalice to side, fold corporal and place in burse. Pull chalice back to the centre and recover with pall, place burse and corporal on top, and whole thing to server at sung, leave where is at Low. Kiss altar and begin
(salutation and) post-communion prayer.
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All hearts are open, all desires known
Posts: 3742 | From: Somewhere far away | Registered: Aug 2005
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Our vicar in my teenage years was I suppose a 'Prayer Book Catholic'. He always covered the elements after communion in such a white cloth (as per the rubrics). He would then give the blessing standing to one side of the altar (so as not to turn his back on Our Lord), making the sign of the cross with his right hand and 'plugging himself in' to the altar with his left. Then he would do the ablutions. Then he would read the Last Gospel!
Same here - quite common in those days.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mama Thomas:
Place paten down, thrust chalice towards server who pours in some wine, draw arm back, swirl, pick up paten and hold under chin and drink. Pick up purificator, wrap around chalice, turn to face server(s), still holding fingers and thumbs together, receive wine, slightly lifting or twirling fingers to indicate "enough," do the same with the water,
Why do you need wine for the ablutions? I haven't seen this done for years but I never understood why.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
Angloid, in reply to your question, I was going to say that we don't in Byzantine practice, then realised that there is another difference that I failed to mention earlier. The ablutions are performed with hot water.
Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Scrumpmeister:
The ablutions are performed with hot water.
Probably necessary in the Russian steppes. Not to say the Pennines in this weather.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Mama Thomas
Shipmate
# 10170
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Why do you need wine for the ablutions? I haven't seen this done for years but I never understood why.
The theory is it being slightly thicker makes it easier to gather crumbs into it, hence the wine first in the chalice and the wine first over the fingers which are rinsed in the water.
(In churches where servers don't do this, I'll use water only)
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All hearts are open, all desires known
Posts: 3742 | From: Somewhere far away | Registered: Aug 2005
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by The Scrumpmeister:
The ablutions are performed with hot water.
Probably necessary in the Russian steppes. Not to say the Pennines in this weather.
I know. It's marvellous! ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
As it happens, the directions fit the priest in case of various eventualities does actually tell him what to do in case the contents of the chalice at any point are found to be frozen.
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
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Mama Thomas
Shipmate
# 10170
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Posted
How do you keep it hot during the long service?
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All hearts are open, all desires known
Posts: 3742 | From: Somewhere far away | Registered: Aug 2005
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
Never let it get too far from a thurible.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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