Ship of Fools: All Souls' Day

Thread: All Souls' Day Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Graven Image (# 8755) on :

Does any church have a service for All Soul's Day? It seems to me that in my area that All Soul's is now lumped into All Saint's and celebrated as one.

[offered up the title apostrophe error for the souls in purgatory]

[ 29. October 2012, 23:41: Message edited by: seasick ]

Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Graven Image:
Does any church have a service for All Soul's Day? It seems to me that in my area that All Soul's is now lumped into All Saint's and celebrated as one.

Definitely separate here. Solemn Requiem Friday evening (on All Souls' Day). Unbleached candles, catafalque, black vestments, reduced incense, no blessing of the water at the offertory...the usual alterations. Reading of the names of the departed submitted by parishioners.

Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on :

Thankfully, we do. They are, after all, for different things.

All Saints' is to celebrate the whole company of heaven, which is more populated than the Kalendar would have us assume.

All Souls', on the other hand, is for us to pray for our dearly beloved departed whom, we hope, will one day join the whole company of heaven.

Thurible

Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
Definitely separate here. Solemn Requiem Friday evening (on All Souls' Day). Unbleached candles, catafalque, black vestments, reduced incense, no blessing of the water at the offertory...the usual alterations. Reading of the names of the departed submitted by parishioners.

How very trad. [Biased]

We wear black and pray, by name, for those for whom we've been asked to pray but, otherwise, the ceremonial is the same.

Thurible

Posted by Ceremoniar (# 13596) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:

quote:
Originally posted by Graven Image:
Does any church have a service for All Soul's Day? It seems to me that in my area that All Soul's is now lumped into All Saint's and celebrated as one.
Definitely separate here. Solemn Requiem Friday evening (on All Souls' Day). Unbleached candles, catafalque, black vestments, reduced incense, no blessing of the water at the offertory...the usual alterations. Reading of the names of the departed submitted by parishioners.

Same here. Both priests celebrate three Masses each on that day, in accordance with the missal.

Posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras (# 11274) on :

Basically what Oblatus relates, likewise at our shack.

Posted by Forthview (# 12376) on :

The three Masses on All Souls' day have virtually died out (no pun intended).
The custom of each priest celebrating three Masses on All Souls'day was a special 'privilege' for Spanish priests since medieval times,but extended to the Universal Church during or just after World War I.
Again the three Masses were very poular during my childhood in Scotland but it was a custom which was virtually unknown in Austria.

Posted by Liturgylover (# 15711) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Graven Image:
Does any church have a service for All Soul's Day? It seems to me that in my area that All Soul's is now lumped into All Saint's and celebrated as one.

[offered up the title apostrophe error for the souls in purgatory]

I have never heard of them being lumped together in one service as you describe, but there seems to be considerable variance here on which days they are celebrated on. Most seem to observe each feast on its proper day, while others transfer to the Sunday (with All Souls in the evening) and even to the Monday!

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
Thankfully, we do. They are, after all, for different things.

All Saints' is to celebrate the whole company of heaven, which is more populated than the Kalendar would have us assume.

All Souls', on the other hand, is for us to pray for our dearly beloved departed whom, we hope, will one day join the whole company of heaven.

Thurible

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

[Sorry about the above: clicked the wrong button!]

quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
Thankfully, we do. They are, after all, for different things.

All Saints' is to celebrate the whole company of heaven, which is more populated than the Kalendar would have us assume.

All Souls', on the other hand, is for us to pray for our dearly beloved departed whom, we hope, will one day join the whole company of heaven.

Thurible

If I may inject a Purgatorial tangent (in more ways than one). Perhaps it's just my woolly Anglicanism, but I would prefer to say they are two aspects of the same thing. Maybe there are saints in heaven who have attained perfection and so do not need our prayers; I'm sure there are many departed souls who need a hell of a lot of spiritual boosting to get them to heaven. But we are not really in a position to say who is in which category, and I'm sure that the vast majority of the departed are praying for us as, or probably more, fervently than we are for them.

So All Saints should be much more than an honours parade of the great and the good... it should be a time for celebrating the glory of God in the lives of those we have known as well as in the billions of unknown and insignificant people who nevertheless were and are children of God. All Souls is a more sombre reflection of their, and our, need for judgement, and a celebration of God's mercy. Both have their place, but we can't usurp God's role of separating the sheep from the goats.

[ 30. October 2012, 15:02: Message edited by: Angloid ]

Posted by Ceremoniar (# 13596) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Forthview:
The three Masses on All Souls' day have virtually died out (no pun intended).
The custom of each priest celebrating three Masses on All Souls'day was a special 'privilege' for Spanish priests since medieval times,but extended to the Universal Church during or just after World War I.
Again the three Masses were very poular during my childhood in Scotland but it was a custom which was virtually unknown in Austria.

Sorry, but you are incorrect. The custom originated in the late middle ages, and the three Masses were included in the 1570 missal. It appears in my 1839 altar missal.

I also don't know why you would say the custom is dying. In the three dioceses in which I have lived, it is commonplace, both in the OF and EF.

[ 30. October 2012, 15:05: Message edited by: Ceremoniar ]

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

I find they are quite different things. I've noticed in some All Souls services that they are meant to be only remembering people who were nice to us.

The departed I really need to pray for are those who were bastards, like my prep school headmaster.

I can remember hearing he was dead and immediately saying matter of factly I would like to dance on his grave.

I'm not well enough to get to mass that day this year, but I usually find it an immensely healing experience. It is practicing going to funerals and coming to terms with death in a safe environment.

All Saints never inspires me - it's a bit so-whatish. I try to remember it is the fifth glorious mystery of the rosary. Of course it is the whole company of heaven and not just officially recognised individuals (who have their own day anyway).

Posted by Forthview (# 12376) on :

Sorry about that.I should have perhaps said 'here in Scotland'
I accept what you have to say about the three Masses.My oldest English language Missal only goes back to the 1920s.A French Missal from 1917 mentions the three Masses of All Souls'day.But my oldest German Missal from 1923 says that in 1915 Pope Benedict XV allowed each priest to say Mass three times on All Souls'day - a privilege which had been accorded to Spanish priests at the beginning of the 16th century.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

My parish church will have a solemn mass on each day. I like the contrast.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
no blessing of the water at the offertory

Oh dear. Will the chalice be contaminated or something?

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

All Saints' Day - 730pm Mass (with hymns and incense) celebrating the Church Triumphant. Best white vestments. I don't expect we'll get more than 10 in the congo, as a number of those who would normally attend are away (it's half-term week).

All Souls' Day - 930am Franciscan Morning Prayer

Saturday 3rd - 930am All Souls' Mass (with hymns and incense) - names of parishioners, families, friends etc. read out and prayed for. Black chasuble (I expect).

We are transferring All Souls to our usual Saturday morning slot, coz we know we'll get a congregation.......

Ian J.

Posted by Arethosemyfeet (# 17047) on :

No such luck out here, I doubt we'll hear mention of All Saints, never mind All Souls. At the last church I spent a lot of time in, it was the custom to invite the families of those who had had a funeral in church in the last year, and for their names and any others submitted to be read out.

Posted by Emendator Liturgia (# 17245) on :

Originally posted by venbede:
The departed I really need to pray for are those who were bastards, like my prep school headmaster.

I can remember hearing he was dead and immediately saying matter of factly I would like to dance on his grave.

I sure hope the departed had not chosen to be buried at sea!

Posted by Snackristan (# 14051) on :

I keep them as separate commemorations. I've got 1st and 2nd Vespers and Matins on the 31st/1st, Requiem mass for all souls' day on the 2nd, and All Saints' Sunday. That seems to be common for prayer book catholics in the Episcopal Church.

-snacky

Posted by Olaf (# 11804) on :

We (ELCA mainline Lutherans in the US, brethren to TEC) lump them together. We don't even have Nov. 2 listed as anything special on our calendar.

Strangely enough, the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod, America's largest conservative Lutheran body, does have "Commemoration of All Faithful Departed" on Nov. 2, even though doctrinally, few LCMS people would tend to acknowledge saints at all, let alone do anything that might come close to praying for the departed. A little too close to popish purgatorial talk and all...

Of the two denoms, it is the ELCA who says such things as "Rest eternal, grant them, Lord" in the funeral liturgy, and yet the ELCA doesn't have anything special for Nov. 2.

Apparently we had a Catholic-minded person on the funeral liturgy committee, and not on the calendar committee; and the LCMS had vice versa. It happens.

Posted by Vulpior (# 12744) on :

All Saints is our patronal, so was (as is common in these parts) marked on Sunday just gone. When I was away, unfortunately, so I missed the jazz setting of the mass.

All souls will be marked on the eve with Mass. Mozart's Requiem and, in this case, I am going.

Posted by Amazing Grace (# 95) on :

Every year on the Eve or the Day, with a full sung Requiem setting (Faure, de Victoria, Rutter ...), clouds of incense, and names submitted by the parish/worshippers being read out from the altar. It's one of our best-attended services. Some are, no doubt, interested in a free concert (last year's flyer didn't make any mention of its being an actual church service, I noted ...), but others are definitely there to reflect.

Last year we had black vestments and a catafalque, making us, no doubt, the envy of the Ship's Tat Queens.

We do All Saints both on the day at a midday Low Mass and on Sunday.

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

We're observing All Saints on Sunday, and for a variety of reasons shall observe All Souls as a vigil mass tomorrow evening. Rather than read out a list, the names of those being remembered are in a book which will be placed on the altar. We also go forward to place flowers on the altar - just simple flowers, cut from the garden, not fancy arrangements.

Posted by Ceremoniar (# 13596) on :

I must admit to being somewhat taken aback to read that some shacks are actually celebrating All Souls on the evening of All Saints. All Souls, not being a solemnity/first class feast, do not have a vigil. [Help]

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

Alas, sometimes correct liturgical observance needs to give way to practicalities. If you have an already established weekday/night service close to the right day, it makes some sense to utilise it (thereby edifying the faithful who might not attend on the correct day, IYSWIM). Not a perfect solution, but it ain't a perfect world.

I am told that, in the last days of our not-at-all-lamented previous priest, the congregation at the All Saints Day Sung Mass consisted of Father, his wife, our Devoted Old Gentleman (every parish should have one), and the sacristan.......mind you, the congregation at Mass on the following Sunday wasn't much larger......

Ian J.

Posted by PD (# 12436) on :

We had Low Mass this morning for All Saints and in theory there will be a sung Mass this evening, but at the side altar as the high altar has already been changed for tomorrow. Absolution of the Dead will close Mass tomorrow, but the Mass itself is a Low Mass.

PD

Posted by Anglican_Brat (# 12349) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ceremoniar:
I must admit to being somewhat taken aback to read that some shacks are actually celebrating All Souls on the evening of All Saints. All Souls, not being a solemnity/first class feast, do not have a vigil.

Well you can think of the liturgical rationale. Shall we celebrate the Church triumphant before the Church in suffering? Or shall we celebrate the suffering first and the joy afterwards, knowing that those in the Church suffering will eventually join the Church triumphant?

Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on :

We have a very low-key remembrance service for the departed (loved ones rather than All Saints). It's not entirely within the usual tradition of the Church of Ireland folk here, but we'll get a little crowd out wanting to light a candle for their loved ones, or at least putting their names onto a list to be remembered aloud during the service.

Posted by PD (# 12436) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ceremoniar:
I must admit to being somewhat taken aback to read that some shacks are actually celebrating All Souls on the evening of All Saints. All Souls, not being a solemnity/first class feast, do not have a vigil.

This week actually came out right without a lot of help from me.

Sunday was Sts Simon and Jude. Trinity 21 got bumped to Wednesday as the American BCP has not Vigil of All Saints. All Saints was therefore an extra, as will be the Commemoration of the Faithful Departed tomorrow. The numbers attending on All Saints and All Souls, when they do not fall on Sunday or Wednesday, are not great, but the former is 'of obligation' in our diocese and the other is sort of popular with a 'certain clientelle.'

PD

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ceremoniar:
I must admit to being somewhat taken aback to read that some shacks are actually celebrating All Souls on the evening of All Saints. All Souls, not being a solemnity/first class feast, do not have a vigil.

We had our service last night, the evening on All Saints (not of All Saints) as moving and supportive as always. Numbers down on previous years, but as it was the third service for the day, that is not surprising. It was far better for the pastoral care of the parish that what happened, happened.

(BTW, I did not suggest that it was a vigil, but as a vigil. And Emli did not say that the Presentation was not observed here, but that Candlemas, as that, was not - and explained.)

[ 02. November 2012, 08:22: Message edited by: Gee D ]

Posted by Devils Advocate (# 16484) on :

We will be having a Sung Requiem Mass at 7-30 this evening

Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on :

Well, five of us gathered for the Holy Sacrifice at 8 this morning. Disappointing turnout but nice service. (Masses also at 10 and 12.30.)

Black vestments, unbleached candles, modern ceremonial (eastward facing). CW Prayer A (trad language) with propers borrowed from the Missal.

Thurible

Posted by Ceremoniar (# 13596) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
Well you can think of the liturgical rationale. Shall we celebrate the Church triumphant before the Church in suffering? Or shall we celebrate the suffering first and the joy afterwards, knowing that those in the Church suffering will eventually join the Church triumphant?

I think that we should celebrate them in the order that the Church has for over a millenium, regardless of one's own preferences or rationales.

quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
BTW, I did not suggest that it was a vigil, but as a vigil.

I am not sure what the difference is there. My point was that All Souls does not have a vigil, and All Saints has Evening Prayer I and II, which would preclude anticipating something that is not even a feast.

quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
And Emli did not say that the Presentation was not observed here, but that Candlemas, as that, was not - and explained.

Again, not sure what this means. Perhaps you mean that there is no provision for the proper liturgy of the day, i.e., the blessing and procession of candles in your BCP? This is not in the American BCP, either, but it is in Lesser Feasts and Fasts or similar. Perhaps it is in some other resource there?

I generally have heard the terms Candlemas and Presentation used interchangeably, both as names for the day (such as Nativity and Christmas). This is how Forescue and Ritual Notes both use it. It was in that context that I was surprised to read of no Candlemas on the kalendar. I apologize if I missed anything that would have clarified this.

Posted by georgiaboy (# 11294) on :

Here at our lil traddy shack in the Low Country:

All Saints Day: 8 am Low Mass; 630 pm High Mass (not very well attended) sol procession w/ 'For All the Saints' choir sang Bainton's 'And I Saw a New Heaven'

All Souls Day: 8 am Low Mass; noon Low Mass, both with black vestments and longish list of the departed to be remembered (first names only, and this being the American South we had Muffy, Bobo, and other endearments - no Bubba this year, though.
Celebrant today wore a VERY pre-Vat2 black fiddleback chaz. Wonder where he got that?

Sunday will the 'in the Octave of All Saints' per the TEC Prayer Book rubrics, but we'll use the alternate set of readings. One of the hymns during communion is to be 'I Sing a Song of the Saints of God' - we just can't seem to bury that one - I've threatened to do the accompanying motions!

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

Sorry, I did not mean to confuse anyone, but "as a vigil" or "like a vigil" have the same meaning for me, denoting a simile.

No blessing of candles in APBA unless it's really tucked away somewhere, but Emli's better on that than I am. What's important for me is that the Infant Jesus is taken to the Temple, Simeon sees Him, recognises Him as the Messiah, and through his faith is saved. Then this salvation is balanced by that of the Good Thief.

[ 03. November 2012, 01:19: Message edited by: Gee D ]

Posted by Gramps49 (# 16378) on :

Since Lutherans do not accept the concept of purgatory and would argue all believers are in God's company now, All Souls has virtually disappeared in our lectionary. Most Lutheran congregations will be celebrating All Saints on Sunday, since Sunday is still in the Octave of the Feast. Our pastor will be also discussing Simon and Jude. While we will light candles for the departed the emphasis will be on how they helped cultivate the faith of the rest of us.

Posted by Basilica (# 16965) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
Since Lutherans do not accept the concept of purgatory and would argue all believers are in God's company now, All Souls has virtually disappeared in our lectionary. Most Lutheran congregations will be celebrating All Saints on Sunday, since Sunday is still in the Octave of the Feast. Our pastor will be also discussing Simon and Jude. While we will light candles for the departed the emphasis will be on how they helped cultivate the faith of the rest of us.

I'm glad you're so clear about the relationship between the feast of All Souls and a doctrine of purgatory. (Note that I say a doctrine of purgatory...) I'm astonished by the number of people in the Church of England who happily celebrate All Souls but who would be horrified at any suggestion of a doctrine of purgatory.

I've always wondered exactly what they think they're doing...

Posted by Utrecht Catholic (# 14285) on :

AS an Old-Catholic and like many Anglicans, I do not believe in the doctrine of the purgatory.
But I strongly believe in the prayers for the departed and my church observes the Liturgical Celebration of All Souls,again just like many Anglicans.
The Eastern-Orhodox church prays for the departed ,but rejects the Purgatory.
Instead of the Purgatory I believe in the Cleansing of the Souls.Purgatory is not the right term.
Many Anglican churches observe All Souls by having sung Requiems e.g.: St.Paul's cathedral and Westminster Abbey.
Mozart's Requiem Mass was sung at St.Paul's yesterday,with the use of incense and the prayers for the departed.

Posted by Triple Tiara (# 9556) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Utrecht Catholic:

Instead of the Purgatory I believe in the Cleansing of the Souls.

Is it just the word "Purgatory" you do not like?

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :

I remember a dear Jesuit scholar in my first year at theological college explaining to us, most of whom were not catholic, his understanding of purgatory. No matter how "saved" or otherwise you are, if you drop a brick on your toe you are likely not to be, at that moment, in the most magnificent state of grace. If at that moment you coincidentally or causitively die, what next?

Purgatory is the journey from that to bliss.

I also remember reading a sanctimonious fundamentalist writing in a book about the Teneriffe air disaster (well land disaster really, but let's not be picky). As one of the planes emerged from the mist a pilot screamed (and at this point my memory lets me down) "oh shit" or "Jesus Christ".* Either way he was not in the most beatific state of Christ consciousness. According to the author this was proof of his eternal damnation. I prefer to see it as a fine argument for purgatory.

Purgatory is the journey from that to bliss.

Though I am a universalist. [Disappointed]

*Google is my friend: the words appear to have been "Goddamn, that son-of-a-bitch is coming straight at us!"

[ 03. November 2012, 10:37: Message edited by: Zappa ]

Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :

Maybe the soul can be cleansed in Heaven.

I remember a novel by Andrew Greeley where a character had a near death experience and saw his parents in Heaven. They had been Catholics but as mean as junk yard dogs in life. As he saw them, they were happier but somewhat confused by their environment. They weren't quite getting Heaven. The visitor was assured that in time, with God's love, they would indeed recover from earthly life and enjoy the fullness of Heaven.

Not a truly proper RC answer, but an answer nonetheless.

Posted by Basilica (# 16965) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Utrecht Catholic:
AS an Old-Catholic and like many Anglicans, I do not believe in the doctrine of the purgatory.
But I strongly believe in the prayers for the departed and my church observes the Liturgical Celebration of All Souls,again just like many Anglicans.
The Eastern-Orhodox church prays for the departed ,but rejects the Purgatory.
Instead of the Purgatory I believe in the Cleansing of the Souls.Purgatory is not the right term.

I couldn't agree more! (This is magnificently illustrated in Newman's Dream of Gerontius.)

My bewilderment is with the number of Anglicans who essentially believe "oh, (s)he's in Heaven with Jesus now", but will still do an All Souls celebration.

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Basilica:

My bewilderment is with the number of Anglicans who essentially believe "oh, (s)he's in Heaven with Jesus now", but will still do an All Souls celebration.

I think at that point we slip into comfort speech rather than theological exactitude. It's slightly better than 'he she is now the brightest star looking down at us'. To be honest as a priest I would let that slide too: comfort surely outweighs theological precision? At least for a while after bereavement.

Posted by New Yorker (# 9898) on :

Noon low Mass at my parish for All Souls yesterday. All by candlelight since the power was out. One had to strain a little to hear the priest and the priest had to hold a candle in one hand to read the Missal. Rather beautiful really.

Posted by Hart (# 4991) on :

Mass schedule was as usual for yesterday on campus. They were busier than usual, but that's always the case on home football weekends. Our community celebration has been transferred to Monday, as we always have too many guests on a football weekend to be able to do something like that. All the area CSCs gather for Mass together and then we go in procession to our community cemetery. It's one of more moving celebrations each year, especially as I've been around a bit longer now and know more of the names on those graves.

A lot of our parishes will do an Evening Mass on All Soul's Day with nice music and some specific moment of praying for the any dead person whose name gets sent in.

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

10 of us this morning for our transferred All Souls' Day Mass - some absentees due to sickness or holiday). Eastward-facing Common Worship Mass with propers from the Roman Missal. Black chasuble, three hymns, and incense at the usual places.

IMHO we have observed All Saints/All Souls as best we could, even though the turnout for both services was a little lower than usual. We also had (last Sunday afternoon) a non-eucharistic Memorial Service, arranged by two local funeral directors for families with whom they have dealt over the past year. We had upwards of 150 people at that service, which seems (as in past years) to have been well-received. We ourselves were responsible for the liturgy, which was basically a Commemoration of the Departed, taken from The Promise of his Glory.

Ian J.

Posted by Antiphon (# 14779) on :

At the mass for All Souls Day in my local RC church the priest wore white vestments rather then violet in order to better symbolise the resurrection of the dead and also used an Easter preface for the eucharistic prayer rather than a preface for the dead.

What do other contributors think of this? I have an open mind myself at the moment.

Posted by New Yorker (# 9898) on :

I think it misses the point. Was this an RC parish?

Posted by Trisagion (# 5235) on :

There's been a lot of that kind of thing over the years. I think it's mostly nonsense. The Mass for the Dead in the Roman Rite has always been a balance of mourning, commending the dead to the mercy of God and of hope. From the adoption of coloured vestments in the liturgy, in the Roman Rite these Masses have been celebrated either in Black or in Violet. The revised rite for Christian Funerals permits white - although it is at least arguable that this permission was granted not to accommodate western squeamishness but the cultural conditions of parts of the world where white is the colour of mourning. I'm afraid that I have never been to a White Mass for the Dead where the tone has anything of the mourning, any sense of the need for divine mercy or any hope: nothing other than a flat assurance that the dead are already in heaven. You could call that assurance (I was brought up in Methodism) but in Catholic life that has more usually been seen as presumption. Whatever it is, it seems to me to be a wholly regrettable manifestation of the hermeneutic of rupture.

Posted by PD (# 12436) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:

quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
no blessing of the water at the offertory
Oh dear. Will the chalice be contaminated or something?

The water is still blessed, if you consider 'O God, who in wonder and honour...' a blessing, but the sign of the cross is not made.

PD

Posted by PD (# 12436) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Basilica:

quote:
Originally posted by Utrecht Catholic:
AS an Old-Catholic and like many Anglicans, I do not believe in the doctrine of the purgatory.
But I strongly believe in the prayers for the departed and my church observes the Liturgical Celebration of All Souls,again just like many Anglicans.
The Eastern-Orhodox church prays for the departed ,but rejects the Purgatory.
Instead of the Purgatory I believe in the Cleansing of the Souls.Purgatory is not the right term.
I couldn't agree more! (This is magnificently illustrated in Newman's Dream of Gerontius.)

My bewilderment is with the number of Anglicans who essentially believe "oh, (s)he's in Heaven with Jesus now", but will still do an All Souls celebration.

Sounds like a case of their practice is better than their theology to me!

As for the white on All Souls' Day, I really do not get it. Even if one uses white for funerals, which I would discourage because it seems to deny the reality of death in our culture, All Souls' is one time when you can tell the truth, as it were.

PD

Posted by Antiphon (# 14779) on :

Yes, the white vestments were indeed used in a Roman Catholic church.

I think that I would agree that violet would have been more suitable and an appropriate preface for the dead used. Indeed, I think that the latest edition of the Roman Missal actually orders this, but I will have to check up on the rubrics.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by PD:

quote:
Originally posted by leo:

quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
no blessing of the water at the offertory
Oh dear. Will the chalice be contaminated or something?
The water is still blessed, if you consider 'O God, who in wonder and honour...' a blessing, but the sign of the cross is not made.

PD

For what reason is the sign of the cross omitted?

(BTW, since Vatican 2, the sign has always been omitted and the prayer isn't specifically one of blessing, which is why we use the same water for lavabo.)

Posted by Basilica (# 16965) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:

quote:
Originally posted by PD:

quote:
Originally posted by leo:

quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
no blessing of the water at the offertory
Oh dear. Will the chalice be contaminated or something?
The water is still blessed, if you consider 'O God, who in wonder and honour...' a blessing, but the sign of the cross is not made.

PD
For what reason is the sign of the cross omitted?

(BTW, since Vatican 2, the sign has always been omitted and the prayer isn't specifically one of blessing, which is why we use the same water for lavabo.)

All blessings (incense, water, deacon, general, etc.) are omitted at a requiem.

Posted by Ceremoniar (# 13596) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Utrecht Catholic:
AS an Old-Catholic and like many Anglicans, I do not believe in the doctrine of the purgatory.
But I strongly believe in the prayers for the departed and my church observes the Liturgical Celebration of All Souls,again just like many Anglicans.
The Eastern-Orhodox church prays for the departed ,but rejects the Purgatory.
Instead of the Purgatory I believe in the Cleansing of the Souls.Purgatory is not the right term.
Many Anglican churches observe All Souls by having sung Requiems e.g.: St.Paul's cathedral and Westminster Abbey.
Mozart's Requiem Mass was sung at St.Paul's yesterday,with the use of incense and the prayers for the departed.

Like TT, I wonder if it is simply the term purgatory that you do not like. The Cleansing of the Souls sounds a lot like purgatory to me.

But then again, so did the Intermediate State when I was an Anglican. It seemed to allow Anglicans to susbscribe to Catholic theology without using "Romish" terms. I was pleasantly surprised when I saw the St. Augustine Prayer Book--a marvel published by the Order of the Holy Cross in TEC--drop the pretense and use the word purgatory in their book. After all, the texts for Masses for the Dead in the Anglican/American/English Missals were all verbatim translations from the Roman Missal, where the existence of such a state is made quite clear.

Posted by New Yorker (# 9898) on :

I recall an All Souls Day Mass several years ago where the priest wore white, but during the homily he apologized and said that he would have worn black if those vestments had not been thrown out. I wanted to ask why not violet, but had to hurry back to work.

Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :

Evening Sung Eucharist (plus a said service earlier in the day). Priest-in-Charge plus assistant priest both in black vestments (referred to as 'The Men in Black' by the choir), names of the deceased read out.

We have a separate, more informal service of the word on Sunday evening, with names read out and the opportunity to light candles in memory of loved ones.

Posted by Hart (# 4991) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Antiphon:
At the mass for All Souls Day in my local RC church the priest wore white vestments rather then violet in order to better symbolise the resurrection of the dead and also used an Easter preface for the eucharistic prayer rather than a preface for the dead.

What do other contributors think of this? I have an open mind myself at the moment.

White is what I'm used to for this day, and is the first option listed in my ordo (followed by Violet and then Black). The preface should be one of the many for the Dead (the Missal makes this clear). These prefaces are full of the hope of resurrection. Consider this beautiful paragraph from Preface I for the Dead:

quote:

In [Christ] the hope of blessed resurrection has dawned,
that those saddened by the certainty of dying
might be consoled by the promise of immortality to come.
Indeed for your faithful, Lord,
life is changed not ended,
and, when this earthly dwelling turns to dust,
an eternal dwelling is made ready for them in heaven.

Of course, the Easter prefaces are beautiful too, but have the wrong emphasis for this feast, I think.

Posted by Pancho (# 13533) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Utrecht Catholic:

Instead of the Purgatory I believe in the Cleansing of the Souls. Purgatory is not the right term.

The word "Purgatory" is derived from a Latin word for "cleansing" and shares roots with the English word "purge". So ssentially, the word "Purgatory" signifies "place of cleansing".

quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
Maybe the soul can be cleansed in Heaven.

Unfortunately (or fortunately?) nothing unclean can enter Heaven. See Revelation 21:27. ("Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.").

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Basilica:
All blessings (incense, water, deacon, general, etc.) are omitted at a requiem.

But why?

Posted by seasick (# 48) on :

I've always presumed that it's because requiems are supposed to have a more austere character than "normal" liturgies. So some of the niceties are omitted.

That said, I generally find it's misleading to ask why things are done (or not done) - IME this usually results in a spiritualised ex post facto explanation which actually doesn't tell you much. The more interesting question is "what is the origin/history of this custom?"

Posted by Qoheleth. (# 9265) on :

Patronal Festival Eucharist for All Saints Sunday this morning, then into white ( [brick wall]

) for our All Souls Eucharist at 4pm. We invite families whose funerals we've taken during the year, and several people do come every year. This service has our second best attendance after the Midnight Mass of Christmas, so we must be doing something right!

Posted by seasick (# 48) on :

How is the patronal festival Eucharist not itself white?

Posted by Basilica (# 16965) on :

quote:
Originally posted by seasick:
How is the patronal festival Eucharist not itself white?

Presumably the earlier service was gold, which is appropriate for a principal feast but inappropriate for a requiem...

Posted by seasick (# 48) on :

That would make sense.

Posted by Ashworth (# 12645) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
All Saints' Day - 730pm Mass (with hymns and incense) celebrating the Church Triumphant. Best white vestments. I don't expect we'll get more than 10 in the congo, as a number of those who would normally attend are away (it's half-term week).

All Souls' Day - 930am Franciscan Morning Prayer

Saturday 3rd - 930am All Souls' Mass (with hymns and incense) - names of parishioners, families, friends etc. read out and prayed for. Black chasuble (I expect).

We are transferring All Souls to our usual Saturday morning slot, coz we know we'll get a congregation.......

Ian J.

Posted by Edgeman (# 12867) on :

We had a sung tridentine mass as 7PM. Not many people, probably no more than 60 came. Black vestments, unbleached candles, and a catafalque. The vestments, candles, and catafalque were present at all the All Souls Day masses, and it's the parish custom to leave the catafalque up for the nine days after all souls day.

Posted by Ashworth (# 12645) on :

Sorry to Bishops Finger about my above post!
The forum went down for maintenance whilst I was posting and I didn't get to write my bit following the quote!

We did something similar regarding celebrating All Soul's with a Saturday morning Mass. We also would not get a congregation on a Friday evening.
On the Saturday morning we got about 15 people which is very good for us.

We are finding 10am on Saturday mornings quite a popular time for a Mass. We already have a monthly Walsingham Cell Mass on a Saturday morning and if a major Saints Day falls on a Saturday we do the same. We do seem to be building up a regular Saturday morning congregation and it is worth thinking about making it weekly if our interregnum ever comes to an end! A dozen people on a Saturday morning is better than the 3 or 4 we would get at an evening Mass.

[ 04. November 2012, 22:35: Message edited by: Ashworth ]

Posted by Incensed (# 2670) on :

What about the Dies Irae - is it essential at a High Mass of Requiem?

Posted by Ceremoniar (# 13596) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Incensed:
What about the Dies Irae - is it essential at a High Mass of Requiem?

Yup.

Posted by PD (# 12436) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Incensed:
What about the Dies Irae - is it essential at a High Mass of Requiem?

According to "The Big Red Book" (American Missal) it is required for most requiems, and definitely required on the day of death, the day of burial and for the High Mass of Requiem. However, the 'Little Red Book' (Ritual Notes 11 with changes to Dec. 1965) modifies that to the first, or High Mass on All Souls' Day and makes it optional at almost all other requiems. It is one of those things which after 18 years in Holy Orders, and 12 as a PP I still have to look up! Mind you, the fact that I was trained on one set of rules, then worked by another for ten years proably did not help.

PD

[ 05. November 2012, 00:05: Message edited by: PD ]

Posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras (# 11274) on :

ISTM that the Dies Irae is more appropriate to the masses for Commemoration of All Faithful Departed, as an acknowledgement of our existential situation, than it is to a requiem celebrated for an individual Christian soul, especially in the context of a funerary mass.

Posted by PD (# 12436) on :

My practice would tend to agree with that comment. I tend to use the Dies Irae on All Souls' Day and at our quarterly requiems, but not at funeral Masses

PD

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

I'd rather than it went back to Advent where it came from.

Posted by georgiaboy (# 11294) on :

I referred above to our All Souls' Day list of the departed. I was surprised that the celebrant, rather than reading the list following the offertory action with 'I bid your prayers for …' or some such included the list during the Gregorian(Coverdale) canon at 'Remember, Lord, also the souls …'
Made sense, really, I just had never experienced it that way. Is this customary other places?

Just curious.

Posted by BulldogSacristan (# 11239) on :

I wonder how churches whose names are All Souls' work their feast of title. All Souls' Day seems to singularly not lend itself to something like that.

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

I don't suppose All Souls, Langham Place, London bothers.

However the 1950s Ritual Notes states "Churches named All Souls ... are deprived of a feast of title, as All Souls Day excludes all festal observances whatsoever".

I do know there's an RC parish in Kensal Town dedicated to the Holy Souls, but I'm not sure RC parishes bother much with feasts of title.

Posted by Forthview (# 12376) on :

By chance there is an article in this month's CATHOLIC LIFE about that very church.It is dedicated to 'Our Lady of the Holy Souls'.
Apparently there are in the English speaking world only two other churches with this dedication - one in Nassau,Bahamas and one in Little Rock,Arkansas.

Posted by PD (# 12436) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:
I'd rather than it went back to Advent where it came from.

I can see where you are coming from with that comment, but with the embarrassment of riches we have for Advent it would still be rarely heard.

PD

Posted by georgiaboy (# 11294) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Forthview:
By chance there is an article in this month's CATHOLIC LIFE about that very church.It is dedicated to 'Our Lady of the Holy Souls'.
Apparently there are in the English speaking world only two other churches with this dedication - one in Nassau,Bahamas and one in Little Rock,Arkansas.

There is (or was?) a TEC parish in the diocese of Chicago, originally dedicated as 'All Souls'. A new incumbent, wanting a proper feast of title, asked the bp for permission to rename the place -- are you ready? -- as 'Our Lady, Queen of All Souls.' Permission was granted. (The dio was a bit more up-the-candle in those days, I suspect.) Dunno if the dedication (or even the parish) still exists.

I thought I had posted this before, but can't find it, so pardon the duplication?

Posted by Mamacita (# 3659) on :

No sign of it on the diocesan website, georgiaboy. There's an All Souls Anglican church out in Wheaton, but I doubt that has any connection.

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

If a parish was dedicated to Our Lady, Queen of All Souls, what day would be the patronal festival?

Not that I think it's a bad idea. We can't have too much of Mary, to my mind.

The RC church in Kensal Town was in a very grubby and neglected bit of Greater London, by the way, in the armpit of Ladbroke Grove and the Harrow Road. (Ladbroke Grove undergoes more social extremes than any other street I know in London.) I don't suppose it has gone up market in the last thirty years since I knew it.

Posted by Ceremoniar (# 13596) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mamacita:
No sign of it on the diocesan website, georgiaboy. There's an All Souls Anglican church out in Wheaton, but I doubt that has any connection.

That church was started as a Continuing Church parish less than a decade ago, and has skirted between several jurisdictions, and now is apparently part of the reconstituted Diocese of Qunicy. It was never part of the Episcopal Diocese of Chicago.

I do see that there is an RC parish of Our Lady of Souls in the Archdiocese of Newark, New Jersey.

[ 10. November 2012, 19:05: Message edited by: Ceremoniar ]

Posted by georgiaboy (# 11294) on :

Ceremoniar, the parish to which I referred did its name change sometime before 1965, so it's not the same one. Any connection? I dunno.

Posted by Ceremoniar (# 13596) on :

quote:
Originally posted by georgiaboy:
Ceremoniar, the parish to which I referred did its name change sometime before 1965, so it's not the same one. Any connection? I dunno.

I was referring to the parish in Wheaton. Where specifically is the one that you discussed located?

Posted by georgiaboy (# 11294) on :

As I remember it was Grayslake, but not sure. It was up that way, however.

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