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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: The bells, the bells
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
I think this belongs here because in this context it's about the bells that call to worship.
There was an interesting discussion on Radio 4's today programme this morning at 8:20am prompted by the news that Notre Dame is getting rid of its out of tune bells for their 850th anniversary. There were several things that came out the Today report:
- the history of tuned bells, apparently the continent started that one;
- that bells are supposed to be harmonically tuned, who knew? and that the Big Ben quarter bells are "shocking"ly out of tune;
- people don't like bells, Today listeners were asked to call in with suggestions of out tune bells, and the majority of calls said "all of them".
Which triggered various thoughts in my mind: is there still a place for bells in a call for worship? There have a number of cases where neighbours have tried to block the bells or limit their use, although I did side with the people opposite who complained about the bells being rung up at 9am on a Saturday morning for a 2pm wedding.
Will we improve people's thinking on bells if we tune them properly? so it's a tuneful peal not a cacophony.
(The recording also includes the worst bells named, which were made of steel not bronze)
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
Shipmate
# 10745
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
Which triggered various thoughts in my mind: is there still a place for bells in a call for worship?
Most definitely yes, as I am reminded in sermons at bellringers' meetings, as it proclaims that the church is alive and that there is a welcome for all.
There have a number of cases where neighbours have tried to block the bells or limit their use, although I did side with the people opposite who complained about the bells being rung up at 9am on a Saturday morning for a 2pm wedding.
It only takes a few minutes to ring bells up and perhaps 9.00 was too early for the people who complained, especially if Sunday service ringing is at a later time.
Will we improve people's thinking on bells if we tune them properly? so it's a tuneful peal not a cacophony.
I think that is likely.
From a bellringer's diary are the following tips to avoid complaints;-
Ring regularly at known times.
Fix a pattern for additional ringing.
Consider your neighbours.
Publicise special events.
Maintain good striking.
Have open days.
Be reasonable.
Above all, it is a matter of common sense that unless a new ring is hung, then the chances are that the bells were in place first and people who do not like the sound, did not have to move there in the first place.
I might add that I did have a listen to the Radio 4 link provided in the OP.
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Joyeuses Pâques! Frohe Ostern! Buona Pasqua! ¡Felices Pascuas! Happy Easter!
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Higgs Bosun
Shipmate
# 16582
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
(The recording also includes the worst bells named, which were made of steel not bronze)
Naming the guilty: St Mary's, Moseley in Birmingham (where I was a server following confirmation).
The steel bells have apparently been replaced, although they were arguably better than the recorded bells from the fairly nearby St Agnes.
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
The Peace Tower on Ottawa's Parliament Hill, Big Ben's* little brother is in fact in tune. The Peace Tower Carillon does not play during Lent, but it is capable of a full concert, which it does weekly.
*Yes, yes, Big Ben is a bell not a tower, but the whole idea works either way.
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
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Loquacious beachcomber
Shipmate
# 8783
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Posted
Of course, if you visit a Middle-Eastern country, including Israel, you will hear recorded chants summoning your Muslim brethren to prayers every few hours, certainly overlapping with when you are sleeping.
At a previous church, I arranged for a couple to donate a speaker system, and played recordings of bells playing hymns, for 15 minutes each day, beginning exactly at 12 noon.
When I left that church, the board of property managers promptly disabled the bells in case they offended the neighbours, none of whom had complained in the 8 years that the bells were playing daily.
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TODAY'S SPECIAL - AND SO ARE YOU (Sign on beachfront fish & chips shop)
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Adrian1
Shipmate
# 3994
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
Which triggered various thoughts in my mind: is there still a place for bells in a call for worship?
Most definitely yes, as I am reminded in sermons at bellringers' meetings, as it proclaims that the church is alive and that there is a welcome for all.
There have a number of cases where neighbours have tried to block the bells or limit their use, although I did side with the people opposite who complained about the bells being rung up at 9am on a Saturday morning for a 2pm wedding.
It only takes a few minutes to ring bells up and perhaps 9.00 was too early for the people who complained, especially if Sunday service ringing is at a later time.
Will we improve people's thinking on bells if we tune them properly? so it's a tuneful peal not a cacophony.
I think that is likely.
From a bellringer's diary are the following tips to avoid complaints;-
Ring regularly at known times.
Fix a pattern for additional ringing.
Consider your neighbours.
Publicise special events.
Maintain good striking.
Have open days.
Be reasonable.
Above all, it is a matter of common sense that unless a new ring is hung, then the chances are that the bells were in place first and people who do not like the sound, did not have to move there in the first place.
I might add that I did have a listen to the Radio 4 link provided in the OP.
I agree. It's very much about using good sense, ringing well and at regular times as well as publicising Quarters or Peal attempts. Apart from New Year's Eve when exception can and should be made, the unwritten convention is to conclude all ringing by 9.00pm.
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The Parson's Handbook contains much excellent advice, which, if it were more generally followed, would bring some order and reasonableness into the amazing vagaries of Anglican Ritualism. Adrian Fortescue
Posts: 1986 | From: UK | Registered: Jan 2003
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Adrian1
Shipmate
# 3994
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
Which triggered various thoughts in my mind: is there still a place for bells in a call for worship?
Most definitely yes, as I am reminded in sermons at bellringers' meetings, as it proclaims that the church is alive and that there is a welcome for all.
There have a number of cases where neighbours have tried to block the bells or limit their use, although I did side with the people opposite who complained about the bells being rung up at 9am on a Saturday morning for a 2pm wedding.
It only takes a few minutes to ring bells up and perhaps 9.00 was too early for the people who complained, especially if Sunday service ringing is at a later time.
Will we improve people's thinking on bells if we tune them properly? so it's a tuneful peal not a cacophony.
I think that is likely.
From a bellringer's diary are the following tips to avoid complaints;-
Ring regularly at known times.
Fix a pattern for additional ringing.
Consider your neighbours.
Publicise special events.
Maintain good striking.
Have open days.
Be reasonable.
Above all, it is a matter of common sense that unless a new ring is hung, then the chances are that the bells were in place first and people who do not like the sound, did not have to move there in the first place.
I might add that I did have a listen to the Radio 4 link provided in the OP.
I agree. It's very much about using good sense, ringing well and at regular times as well as publicising Quarters or Peal attempts. If people know what to expect they are, in the main, reasonable about it. Apart from New Year's Eve when exception can and should be made, the unwritten convention is to conclude all ringing by 9.00pm.
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The Parson's Handbook contains much excellent advice, which, if it were more generally followed, would bring some order and reasonableness into the amazing vagaries of Anglican Ritualism. Adrian Fortescue
Posts: 1986 | From: UK | Registered: Jan 2003
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Not all of us have a nice towerful of bells! We have just the one, but we ring it (33 strokes) 15 minutes and 5 minutes before each Mass (Wednesdays 730pm, Saturdays 930am and Sundays 1030am), and 5 minutes (12 strokes) before daily Matins.
We regard it as an audible sign that the church is open and in use, with all-comers welcome. The church is in a compact area of terraced housing, but (AFAIK) we have not had any complaints about the bell being rung.
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Cottontail
Shipmate
# 12234
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Posted
I stayed recently in the Shandon area of Cork, next to St Anne's Shandon Church of Ireland. The bells rang all day. Literally, all day. They bewildered me somewhat, as there was no discernible 'tune' to them - just constant and random pealing.
Then walking past one morning, I realised that the current random notes were just about recognisable as a coherent tune. I concentrated hard, and had a eureka moment as I recognised an attempt at playing Amazing Grace. Later on, I was almost sure I could make out Michael, Row the Boat Ashore.
Upon investigation, it turned out that the bell tower was open to tourists, who all got to have a shot. Which is nice of them.
Beautiful church, though. And from its own website, I like the sound of it very much.
Just not the sound of the bells.
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"I don't think you ought to read so much theology," said Lord Peter. "It has a brutalizing influence."
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
Oh, heaven be praised! I turned to the home page of Saint Norbert Abbey in DePere, Wis. to see if perchance there were a sound clip of their bells, and behold, you'll hear them right away-- all too briefly, but you can get a hint. These are six of the most beautiful bells (E D C A G E) that I have ever heard in the U.S. They are hung on straight yokes-- which makes, I'm told, for rapid swinging, and moved by electric motors controlled by one simple switch per bell. It's all Belgian, and at least in the past, they would fly someone over from Belgium to make repairs if anything went out of order.
When summoned over a period of perhaps half a minute from the top down, allowed to clamor gloriously together for a minute or two, and then retired gradually in the same order, the effect is magically subtle. The bells coast for awhile and seem to strike more softly as well as more seldom. Finally one hears the tenor alone sounding every five or ten seconds. Organ recitals are preceded by such a peal, as though a shower of blessings falls on the event from heaven, after which nothing can go wrong-- unless the recitalist makes the mistake of beginning to play before being certain that the tenor bell has quite lapsed into silence.
Originally built outside the city limits, the abbey is now surrounded with residences, but I heard that when they sold any land, they demanded
an assurance that no subsequent owner would have a right to complain about the bells.
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
BTW, if you turn to "Music" on that site, you will see details of an organ recital series endowed by Canon John Bruce. He was one of those fine old Anglo-Catholic priests that used to flourish in the Diocese of Fond du Lac. I have fond memories of him. He was Vicar of Shawano and New London, just two small towns and small churches, but seemed perfectly content. If there were no organist for a service, he would jump on the bench and play the organ himself. His cultural and musical knowledge was very rich notwithstanding the backwater he lived in. For instance, I remember first hearing Messiaen's Corps Glorieux in his living room ca. 1967, played by Messiaen himself on an obscure French label that I'd never even heard of before. Needless to say, it was a revelation.
Fr. Bruce must have saved up his money very carefully to be able to provide for the abbey to sponsor this series. Surely it was a labor of love. For a few years in my childhood, we could hear a couple of world-famous recitalists there every year, and then in "the spirit of Vatican II" the authorities seemed to lose interest. I should be grateful in a way, because it left room for a few nobodies like yours truly to perform there-- but it's wonderful to see this interest returning.
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
What is this bell-ringing clamor of which you speak?
The only way to ring bells is by way of the Grand Old English Method Of Change-Ringing. Anything else is lazy, foreign, and makes the Baby Jesus (as well as the neighbours) cry.
So there.
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
What is this bell-ringing clamor of which you speak?
The only way to ring bells is by way of the Grand Old English Method Of Change-Ringing. Anything else is lazy, foreign, and makes the Baby Jesus (as well as the neighbours) cry.
So there.
Ian J.
You would be fascinated and/or repelled if you stood in the middle of Liverpool's Hope Street on a Sunday morning. At one end you have the very English change-ringing of the Anglican cathedral; at the other, the glorious continental cacophony of the Catholic one.
It's the difference between formal frock-coated Mattins and a Spanish fiesta. I know which I prefer. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
Shipmate
# 10745
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Posted
Choral Mattins does not take place at Liverpool Anglican Cathedral, unless by exception, but you may mean that metaphorically, Angloid.
Sunday morning Choral Eucharist at Liverpool Anglican Cathedral takes place at 10.30 and unless it has been altered, Solemn Mass at the RC Cathedral takes place at 11.00, making a half-hour gap between the two start times and allowing for both types of bellringing - presumably not simultaneously.
The ring of 12 bells at the Anglican Cathedral are renowned for being the heaviest ring of 12 bells in the world hung for change ringing with the tenor (heaviest) bell weighing 84 cwt, with St. Paul's Cathedral London having the second heaviest ring of the same number of change ringing bells. Ringing on those bells would be far too daunting for me to contemplate!
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Joyeuses Pâques! Frohe Ostern! Buona Pasqua! ¡Felices Pascuas! Happy Easter!
Posts: 1946 | From: Surrey UK | Registered: Dec 2005
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
I suspect Father Angloid was pulling my leg..... ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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Adrian1
Shipmate
# 3994
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Posted
On Sunday I heard two lovely lots of half muffled ringing for Remembrance Sunday in York. Arriving at luncttime I caught the end of what sounded like a well struck Quarter on the delightful ten at St Wilfrid's RC Church. Later in the afternoon I was delighted by well struck call changes on eight of the Minster bells - it sounded like the middle eight. I toyed with the idea of dashing to North Street for their combined practice/pre-Mass ringing after Evensong, but decided to give it a miss. I've rung at North Street on a number of occasions and, like Coney Street, they're a light ground floor eight with a longish draught - something of a challenge if you're used to the front end of a heavy ten.
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The Parson's Handbook contains much excellent advice, which, if it were more generally followed, would bring some order and reasonableness into the amazing vagaries of Anglican Ritualism. Adrian Fortescue
Posts: 1986 | From: UK | Registered: Jan 2003
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
Choral Mattins does not take place at Liverpool Anglican Cathedral, unless by exception, but you may mean that metaphorically, Angloid.
Yes. Nor do Spanish fiestas regularly feature at the Metropolitan Cathedral.
quote:
Sunday morning Choral Eucharist at Liverpool Anglican Cathedral takes place at 10.30 and unless it has been altered, Solemn Mass at the RC Cathedral takes place at 11.00, making a half-hour gap between the two start times and allowing for both types of bellringing - presumably not simultaneously.
I know that too. I couldn't swear to it, but I seem to think the Anglican bells are rung after the Eucharist and not before. I don't suppose they do coincide with their opposite numbers. I was aiming for poetic effect rather than factual accuracy!
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
Shipmate
# 10745
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Posted
Poetic effect - right you are, Angloid.
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Joyeuses Pâques! Frohe Ostern! Buona Pasqua! ¡Felices Pascuas! Happy Easter!
Posts: 1946 | From: Surrey UK | Registered: Dec 2005
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
What is this bell-ringing clamor of which you speak?
The only way to ring bells is by way of the Grand Old English Method Of Change-Ringing. Anything else is lazy, foreign, and makes the Baby Jesus (as well as the neighbours) cry.
So there.
Oh, I don't disagree. I am an officially qualified carillonneur by the carillonneur's guild; and (unlike most carillonneurs) am also fascinated by change ringing. But we're so benighted and culturally deprived over here that I will probably never have a chance to learn how to do it myself. I can count the number of times I've even heard change ringing done in the western hemisphere on the fingers of one hand. In this country, hearing any real bells at all anymore is such a rare treat that it's counterproductive to be too fussy about what system (if any) is used.
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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Comper's Child
Shipmate
# 10580
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
What is this bell-ringing clamor of which you speak?
The only way to ring bells is by way of the Grand Old English Method Of Change-Ringing. Anything else is lazy, foreign, and makes the Baby Jesus (as well as the neighbours) cry.
So there.
Oh, I don't disagree. I am an officially qualified carillonneur by the carillonneur's guild; and (unlike most carillonneurs) am also fascinated by change ringing. But we're so benighted and culturally deprived over here that I will probably never have a chance to learn how to do it myself. I can count the number of times I've even heard change ringing done in the western hemisphere on the fingers of one hand. In this country, hearing any real bells at all anymore is such a rare treat that it's counterproductive to be too fussy about what system (if any) is used.
There are two change rung peals in a city very near you!
Posts: 2509 | From: Penn's Greene Countrie Towne | Registered: Oct 2005
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Comper's Child:
There are two change rung peals in a city very near you!
Actually, there are three that I know of: S. Martin-in-the-Fields, and S. Mark's Locust Street (at least they have plans) in Philadelphia. Is there yet another? Then there is Immanuel Church on the Green in New Castle, Delaware, which is just as easy for me to reach by driving-- but that's not saying much. (Have you ever been there? When I visited some ten years ago, I was moved almost to tears by the liturgy-- not spiky, yet exquisitely done and almost mystical. The rector was a liturgical master. If it is the same still, it deserves to be mystery-worshipped.) But church organists must stay on their benches Sunday mornings. I wouldn't want to give organ playing and choir directing up even if I didn't need the money. But perhaps something can be worked out when I retire, if I haven't become too old and feeble both physically and mentally for "the exercise." I'm looking forward to the possibility-- and, yes, very grateful that we are spoiled rotten here in all matters campanological compared to most parts of the country.
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
Shipmate
# 10745
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
Choral Mattins does not take place at Liverpool Anglican Cathedral, unless by exception, but you may mean that metaphorically, Angloid.
Yes. Nor do Spanish fiestas regularly feature at the Metropolitan Cathedral.
quote:
Sunday morning Choral Eucharist at Liverpool Anglican Cathedral takes place at 10.30 and unless it has been altered, Solemn Mass at the RC Cathedral takes place at 11.00, making a half-hour gap between the two start times and allowing for both types of bellringing - presumably not simultaneously.
I know that too. I couldn't swear to it, but I seem to think the Anglican bells are rung after the Eucharist and not before. I don't suppose they do coincide with their opposite numbers. I was aiming for poetic effect rather than factual accuracy!
On the subject of possible ringing at Liverpool Anglican Cathedral after the main Sunday service, I have no knowledge of how the Liverpool ringers operate on Sunday mornings, but here is speculation from my knowledge of what goes on in other places.
It would be done that way to fit in with the availability of ringers who may ring at more than one church. There is Pier Head nearby, Tue Brook and Walton-on-the-Hill not far away in Liverpool and there may be other local churches with ringing peals of bells. Ringers are free to attend a service they ring for, or not attend, at choice.
Not all bellringers are church-goers every week or at all, and those that are may ring and worship at separate churches, or worship at a church where they ring, but at a different time. That leaves the honourable alternative of staying for the service they ring for.
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Joyeuses Pâques! Frohe Ostern! Buona Pasqua! ¡Felices Pascuas! Happy Easter!
Posts: 1946 | From: Surrey UK | Registered: Dec 2005
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Celtic Knotweed
Shipmate
# 13008
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
Not all bellringers are church-goers every week or at all, and those that are may ring and worship at separate churches, or worship at a church where they ring, but at a different time. That leaves the honourable alternative of staying for the service they ring for.
This describes several of the people I regularly ring with. In the monthly quarter band, I know at least 1 goes to the early service, 1 may well prefer to go to Evensong rather than morning services, and 2 or 3 often finish that QP then go ring for one or more services some miles away (the joys of being on the edge of rural parishes!).
At the other tower, amongst the usual bunch, a couple of us stay for service, one has already been to the early service down the road at the Baptist church, and I'm an atheist/pagan whilst Sandemaniac doesn't do sitting still for services... ![[Two face]](graemlins/scot_twoface.gif)
[edited to try and add some more clarity]
[ 18. November 2012, 19:43: Message edited by: Celtic Knotweed ]
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My little sister is riding 100k round London at night to raise money for cancer research donations here if you feel so inclined.
Posts: 664 | From: between keyboard and chair | Registered: Sep 2007
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Sandemaniac
Shipmate
# 12829
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Posted
Surprisingly, I'm currently sitting vaguely still, looking up these "beauties" on YouBend. Sadism decrees that I do not suggest you turn the sound off, as they so richly deserve. I've rung at Waddesdon, and this recording frankly flatters them - you could make a more musical noise by pushing a job lot of dustbins down the stairs. I fear that steel bells are one of the nastier expressions of Victorian "New is better, even when it patently isn't".
I'm not normally a belt off to the next tower service ringer, but when visiting places and being roped in (groan) I have done a bit of village to village racing, I think the most services I've rung for is three towers in quick succession in neighbouring villages.
AG
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"It becomes soon pleasantly apparent that change-ringing is by no means merely an excuse for beer" Charles Dickens gets it wrong, 1869
Posts: 3574 | From: The wardrobe of my soul | Registered: Jul 2007
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