Ship of Fools: Whether and how Christians should celebrate Hanukah

Thread: Whether and how Christians should celebrate Hanukah Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

Following seasick's suggestion I thought I'd start this.

Since the historic basis for the festival, as I understand, is only found in the deutero-canonical/apocryphal books, it seems to raise the interesting point that Jews are happy to base their liturgy on "apocryphal" material in a way that protestants, or at least the most conscientiously protestants, wouldn't.

Any other thoughts?

Posted by Mamacita (# 3659) on :

What Jews celebrate at Hanukkah is not the military victory reported in Maccabees but rather the miracle of the oil, which is related only in the Talmud.

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

I'm not an expert at all, but I gathered Hannukah was principally the Dedication of the Temple (or re-dedication).

Or was the re-dedication on the same date as Solomon's dedication?

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
Since the historic basis for the festival, as I understand, is only found in the deutero-canonical/apocryphal books, it seems to raise the interesting point that Jews are happy to base their liturgy on "apocryphal" material in a way that protestants, or at least the most conscientiously protestants, wouldn't.

Any other thoughts?

Slight tangent perhaps, but is this that much of a problem?

Virtually all parts of Christendom base parts of their liturgy on extra-scriptural material:-

- Saints days, most saints are more recent than the end of the New Testament.
- The Assumption/Dormition.
- Ash Wednesday.
- Harvest Festival.
- Anniversary of the opening of St Xxx's or Xxxx Chapel.
- Hymns - away from Lewis, virtually no churches now restrict their hymnal to the psalter and scriptural songs. Even the Te Deum isn't actually in scripture.
- Specifically from the deutero-canonical/apocryphal books, the Benedicite has always been in the BCP. Common Worship includes the Song of Tobit and other material.

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

Absolutely no problem for me, enoch.

Note self: buy Handel's Judas Maccabeus.

Posted by Og, King of Bashan (# 9562) on :

This is probably fair.

I attended my first Jewish family Seder last Spring, at my wife's uncle's house. Even in that celebration of a story that is in scripture, much of the activity is drawn from Rabbinic literature rather than scripture. For instance, I had been hearing the passover story from Exodus for years, but when you look at the Seder plate, there are a lot of things on there that are not mentioned in the Exodus narrative. The actions and the various items come from extra-scriptural sources, a lot of which emerged as Judaism attempted to find a path forward after the destruction of the temple. When you religion is based on worship in one house and that house is destroyed, you have to figure out where to go from there.

From this perspective, I came to think of Christian adaptations of Jewish traditions as a little akin to someone writing down a script of what happens at your house on Christmas day, and then staging a "traditional Christian Christmas" by following that script. You can get the idea, and it isn't disrespectful if you don't intend it to be, but part of the importance would be lost if you are not actively remembering performing these same acts with your parents and grandparents.

Posted by churchgeek (# 5557) on :

Og, that is a wonderful answer.

Christians who wish to mark Jewish festivals probably need to articulate why they want to do so. I'd be interested in hearing responses to that, because there are probably some very good and personal reasons mixed in with some not so good reasons.

Posted by Gramps49 (# 16378) on :

Vendebe

This is not referring to the rededication of the temple at the time of Solomon, but, rather, when the Second Temple was looted (around 170 BCE). When the Second Temple in Jerusalem was looted and services stopped, Judaism was outlawed. In 167 BCE Antiochus ordered an altar to Zeus erected in the Temple. He banned circumcision and ordered pigs to be sacrificed at the altar of the temple.Antiochus's actions provoked a large-scale revolt. Mattityahu, a Jewish priest, and his five sons Jochanan, Simeon, Eleazar, Jonathan, and Judah led a rebellion against Antiochus. Judah became known as Yehuda HaMakabi ("Judah the Hammer"). By 166 BCE Mattathias had died, and Judah took his place as leader. By 165 BCE the Jewish revolt against the Seleucid monarchy was successful. The Temple was liberated and rededicated. The festival of Hanukkah was instituted to celebrate this event. Judah ordered the Temple to be cleansed, a new altar to be built in place of the polluted one and new holy vessels to be made. According to the Talmud, olive oil was needed for the menorah in the Temple, which was required to burn throughout the night every night. The story goes that there was only enough oil to burn for one day, yet it burned for eight days, the time needed to prepare a fresh supply of oil for the menorah. An eight-day festival was declared by the Jewish sages to commemorate this miracle.

Posted by Corvo (# 15220) on :

If the answer is yes, should Christians follow Sephardi or Ashkenazi traditions?

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

For about fifteen years, our branch of the Council of Christians and Jews held an Advent/Hanukkah meditation with:

readings from Maccabees
psalms
lighting of advent wreath and of menorah
selections from the Handel
prayers

Held in a church with priest and rabbi present, it was one of our best attended events of the year - nominal members turned upo who we'd only see once a year at this event.

I stopped it when i took over in charge as it takes hours to organise.

Now, we do a pub quiz instead.

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Now, we do a pub quiz instead.

Wouldn't that be more appropriate for Purim?

Posted by Oscar the Grouch (# 1916) on :

quote:
Originally posted by churchgeek:
Christians who wish to mark Jewish festivals probably need to articulate why they want to do so. I'd be interested in hearing responses to that, because there are probably some very good and personal reasons mixed in with some not so good reasons.

I concur.

"Doing" a Seder was an interesting (almost) act of education which helped to shed a little light on what Jesus was doing at the Last Supper. But I never saw the need to "do it" EVERY year. And as a Christian, I find it interesting to know something about the Jewish festivals, in terms of how they feed into Christian ideas. But that's about it. I don't think Christians should celebrate Hanukah (or Passover, or Purim....). That's something Jews should do. After all, I don't need to celebrate Eid with the Muslims or Diwali with the Hindus.

Posted by uffda (# 14310) on :

We're not celebrating Hanukkah, but in our community, in which there is a large Jewish community, I'm referring to Hanukkah in my sermon tomorrow, explaining it's history, and setting it between Malachi and the mission of JBap as a sign of God's faithfulness through time.

Posted by Hart (# 4991) on :

That sounds great, uffda. For the record (as I'm the one who started the tangent), this is the kind of thing I had in mind when I made my first comment about Hanukkah, not appropriation of Jewish festive customs.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:

quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Now, we do a pub quiz instead.
Wouldn't that be more appropriate for Purim?

Yes - but we wanted to have some sort of social event together foe the 'holiday' season.

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
"Doing" a Seder was an interesting (almost) act of education which helped to shed a little light on what Jesus was doing at the Last Supper. But I never saw the need to "do it" EVERY year. And as a Christian, I find it interesting to know something about the Jewish festivals, in terms of how they feed into Christian ideas. But that's about it. I don't think Christians should celebrate Hanukah (or Passover, or Purim....). That's something Jews should do. After all, I don't need to celebrate Eid with the Muslims or Diwali with the Hindus.

Over forty years ago, for me, hearing an eminent UK rabbi explain both the Passover meal and the ordinary Friday evening one, was an eye-opener for understanding the Eucharist for which I will remain ever grateful.

So much was suddenly clarified, and so much that I had unwittingly ingested from my religious Sitzimleben was rendered instantly and refreshingly irrelevant.

Posted by Carys (# 78) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:
For about fifteen years, our branch of the Council of Christians and Jews held an Advent/Hanukkah meditation with:

readings from Maccabees
psalms
lighting of advent wreath and of menorah
selections from the Handel
prayers

Held in a church with priest and rabbi present, it was one of our best attended events of the year - nominal members turned upo who we'd only see once a year at this event.

I stopped it when i took over in charge as it takes hours to organise.

Now, we do a pub quiz instead.

You had a successful event, but you sstopped it because you couldn't be bothered?

Carys

Posted by Gramps49 (# 16378) on :

I am personally tweaking some of my FB followers-those who think there is a War on Christmas--by remembering each day of Hanukkah this year. The first day I posted Peter Paul and Mary's Light One Candle. Today I posted Adam Schandler's Hanukkah Song. I have six other songs lined up. I am wondering how many will unfriend me by the end of the holiday.

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Carys:
You had a successful event, but you stopped it because you couldn't be bothered?

Carys

Hosting

There is a whiff of the ad hominem about this response. Keep it nice or a host will bite.

/ Hosting

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Carys:

quote:
Originally posted by leo:
For about fifteen years, our branch of the Council of Christians and Jews held an Advent/Hanukkah meditation with:

readings from Maccabees
psalms
lighting of advent wreath and of menorah
selections from the Handel
prayers

Held in a church with priest and rabbi present, it was one of our best attended events of the year - nominal members turned upo who we'd only see once a year at this event.

I stopped it when i took over in charge as it takes hours to organise.

Now, we do a pub quiz instead.
You had a successful event, but you sstopped it because you couldn't be bothered?

Carys

Sounds bad.

BUT I had to organise the Advent Carol service at my church for two years running. It's the biggest service of the year (as the students are away for Christmas). Liason with organ scholar, various readers, printers etc. 10 - 15 hours work.

Couldn't face a similar amount of time organising an event for a much smaller congregation during the same period. Without washing dirty linen in public, suffice it to say that one of the key people didn't answer emails or phone messages for TEN WEEKS before the event and two other key people ditto for THREE weeks. Plus the vicar of the church we used didn't answer any emails AT ALL.

Am I forgiven yet?!

Posted by The Silent Acolyte (# 1158) on :

The opening post asks, "Whether and how Christians should celebrate Hanukah."

The answer is the same as for a seder, No, don't do it.

If one needs to be a religious tourist, then do it honesty, as a guest.

As to the question, "Hannukah: Pacific or Bellicose?" let me quote the opening 81 words of a 786-word New York Times op-ed piece from 8 December 2012 (coincidentally the Feast of the Conception of the BVM):

quote:
WHEN my brother was in kindergarten, where he was the only Jewish student, a parent organizing enrichment activities asked my mother to tell the class the story of Hanukkah. My mother obligingly brought in a picture book and began to read about foreign conquerors who were not letting Jews in ancient Israel worship freely, even defiling their temple, until a scrappy group led by the Maccabee family overthrew one of the most powerful armies in the world and won their liberty.

Definitely bellicose, then. Hannukah is not a happy story about God miraculously stretching out the lighting oil supply, but rather one of occupation, overthrow, and internecine strife.

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

I looked up a Jewish source http://www.jewfaq.org/holiday7.htm

A number of points here, which put some of my comments in their place:

"Note that the holiday commemorates the miracle of the oil, not the military victory: Jews do not glorify war."

"It is roughly equivalent to Purim in significance, and you won't find many non-Jews who have even heard of Purim! Chanukkah is not mentioned in Jewish scripture; the story is related in the book of Maccabees, which Jews do not accept as scripture."

Posted by The Silent Acolyte (# 1158) on :

So, Hannukah is all menorahs and dreidels?

Sorry, venbede, I'm not buying it. Your quotes sound like assimilationist "let's not ruffle the goy feathers."

Against the earnest "Jews don't glorify war," we have the evidence of the folk songs quoted in the same site:

When you have prepared the slaughter / for the blaspheming foe
Furious they assailed us, But Thine arm availed us / And thy word broke their sword, When our own strength failed us.
In every age a hero arose to save the people
Maccabee saved and freed us / And in our days the whole people of Israel / Arise united to save ourselves

After that honesty, the web site then gets back to dancing the hora and pan frying latkes.

Don't get me wrong, though. I quite satisfied when the Antiochus of every age gets a good kick in the teeth.

Posted by uffda (# 14310) on :

quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
Don't get me wrong, though. I quite satisfied when the Antiochus of every age gets a good kick in the teeth.

Nicely put, SA!

Posted by Tubbs (# 440) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:

quote:
Originally posted by Carys:

quote:
Originally posted by leo:
For about fifteen years, our branch of the Council of Christians and Jews held an Advent/Hanukkah meditation with:

readings from Maccabees
psalms
lighting of advent wreath and of menorah
selections from the Handel
prayers

Held in a church with priest and rabbi present, it was one of our best attended events of the year - nominal members turned upo who we'd only see once a year at this event.

I stopped it when i took over in charge as it takes hours to organise.

Now, we do a pub quiz instead.
You had a successful event, but you sstopped it because you couldn't be bothered?

Carys
Sounds bad.

BUT I had to organise the Advent Carol service at my church for two years running. It's the biggest service of the year (as the students are away for Christmas). Liason with organ scholar, various readers, printers etc. 10 - 15 hours work.

Couldn't face a similar amount of time organising an event for a much smaller congregation during the same period. Without washing dirty linen in public, suffice it to say that one of the key people didn't answer emails or phone messages for TEN WEEKS before the event and two other key people ditto for THREE weeks. Plus the vicar of the church we used didn't answer any emails AT ALL.

Am I forgiven yet?!

So why didn't you ask someone to take on one of the services and concentrate on the other? [Confused]

Tubbs

Posted by The Silent Acolyte (# 1158) on :

quote:
leo saith:
...the key people didn't answer emails or phone messages ... Plus the vicar of the church we used didn't answer any emails AT ALL.

This is so much not like me that it hurts, but Tubbs, I think you have your answer here.

It's unseemly to complain about how hard it is for a volunteer to get it all done, but please allow me a whinge for leo.

If it's hard to get the principals to step up, think how hard it is to have an uninitiate take hold of the reins and whip and drive those ecclesiastical mules.

[ 11. December 2012, 12:42: Message edited by: The Silent Acolyte ]

Posted by Tubbs (# 440) on :

quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:

quote:
leo saith:
...the key people didn't answer emails or phone messages ... Plus the vicar of the church we used didn't answer any emails AT ALL.
This is so much not like me that it hurts, but Tubbs, I think you have your answer here.

It's unseemly to complain about how hard it is for a volunteer to get it all done, but please allow me a whinge for leo.

If it's hard to get the principals to step up, think how hard it is to have an uninitiate take hold of the reins and whip and drive those ecclesiastical mules.

Everyone has to start somewhere. [Biased]

I totally get stopping something because you can't get someone else to take it over. But stopping someting that's successful because you can't face doing it because of what else you've got on without trying to find someone to take it over?! Maybe not so much. [Biased]

I will give you credit for coming to Leo's defense though.

Tubbs

Posted by seasick (# 48) on :

seasick dusts off the Ecclesiantics menorah and lights the candles...

I had a feeling we were having a conversation about Hanukah here... perhaps it's time to get back to that.

Much obliged.

seasick, Eccles host

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:

quote:
Originally posted by leo:

quote:
Originally posted by Carys:

quote:
Originally posted by leo:
For about fifteen years, our branch of the Council of Christians and Jews held an Advent/Hanukkah meditation with:

readings from Maccabees
psalms
lighting of advent wreath and of menorah
selections from the Handel
prayers

Held in a church with priest and rabbi present, it was one of our best attended events of the year - nominal members turned upo who we'd only see once a year at this event.

I stopped it when i took over in charge as it takes hours to organise.

Now, we do a pub quiz instead.
You had a successful event, but you sstopped it because you couldn't be bothered?

Carys
Sounds bad.

BUT I had to organise the Advent Carol service at my church for two years running. It's the biggest service of the year (as the students are away for Christmas). Liason with organ scholar, various readers, printers etc. 10 - 15 hours work.

Couldn't face a similar amount of time organising an event for a much smaller congregation during the same period. Without washing dirty linen in public, suffice it to say that one of the key people didn't answer emails or phone messages for TEN WEEKS before the event and two other key people ditto for THREE weeks. Plus the vicar of the church we used didn't answer any emails AT ALL.

Am I forgiven yet?!
So why didn't you ask someone to take on one of the services and concentrate on the other?

Tubbs

No one else. In the first year, the vicar was on sabbatical and curate broke her leg. In the second year, we were in an interregnum - no clergy left.

As for the Jewish link, I had already explained that the people I asked didn't respond to emails or phone messages.

Posted by seasick (# 48) on :

leo,

May I draw your attention to my post above? This thread will return to the OP topic now. Detailed discussion of that event and the problems of organising it are not a matter for this thread or this board. I had hoped that a gentle reminder as I posted would be sufficient but it seems not. I trust I have now made myself more clear.

seasick, Eccles host

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

Yes - my response came to a post higher up and, thus, before I saw yours.

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

If the initial suggestion had not come from someone as sensitive and sensible as hart, I'd have thought that there was no point whatever in Christians celebrating Hannukah.

I note from Raymond Brown's commentary on John (10.22?) that Hanukah in Hebrew means Dedication. Therefore the primary meaning is neither the miracle of the oil nor the military victory, but the Dedication of the Temple, for which liturgical Christians have a clear equivalent.

I confess that I had an alternative agenda in my initial post: a number of shipmates have been highly disapproving of use of the Apocrypha. My point was that Jews were quite happy to use it as the basis of a (minor) festival. The Jewish website I linked to confirmed that Maccabees is not part of Jewish scripture. Nonetheless it is clearly authoritative in this case.

I am in the UK, where it is clearly a different issue from the USA. I lived quarter of a century near an intensely Orthodox Jewish area of London (ie Stamford Hill) and never heard of the festival.

Posted by Basilica (# 16965) on :

quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
I note from Raymond Brown's commentary on John (10.22?) that Hanukah in Hebrew means Dedication. Therefore the primary meaning is neither the miracle of the oil nor the military victory, but the Dedication of the Temple, for which liturgical Christians have a clear equivalent.

Hmm, interesting. What is the clear equivalent? I can think of at least five potential candidates:

* Church's dedication festival
* Dedication festival of the local cathedral
* Feast of the Dedication of S. John Lateran
* Candlemas
* Feast of the Circumcision

Various others could be argued, I'm sure! Which did you have in mind?

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

The clear equivalent to me is the Dedication of the parish church. The C of E does not make provision for the Dedication of the Lateran Basilica or the cathedral.

The element of lights common to both Hanukah and Candlemas is surely coincidental?

Not sure why the Circumcision. And if you keep the Lateran Basilica, then 1 January is not the Circumcision, is it?

[ 12. December 2012, 15:06: Message edited by: venbede ]

Posted by Basilica (# 16965) on :

quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
The clear equivalent to me is the Dedication of the parish church. The C of E does not make provision for the Dedication of the Lateran Basilica or the cathedral.

The element of lights common to both Hanukah and Candlemas is surely coincidental?

Not sure why the Circumcision. And if you keep the Lateran Basilica, then 1 January is not the Circumcision, is it?

The thought behind both Circumcision and Candlemas is the theme of the dedication of Christ. You can easily make the argument that the successor to the Temple in Christianity is Christ, rather than a church building.

It's possible I'm reading too much into this. It wouldn't, alas, be the first time!

Posted by Vaticanchic (# 13869) on :

Agree with few posts above. No harm in keeping Hebrew festivals but, as a Gentile Christian, don't have tremendous significance for me.

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

Raymond Brown comments that whereas the other references to Jewish festivals in John (Passover, Tabernacles) have some theological relation to the person of Christ, there is no appreciative reason why chapter 10 be set at Hanukah, other than a possible historical memory that the incident recalled actually did occur then. It takes place in the porch of the Temple, perhaps, because it is winter and a bit drafty in the courtyards, so everyone takes shelter in the porch.

Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on :

quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
Raymond Brown comments that whereas the other references to Jewish festivals in John (Passover, Tabernacles) have some theological relation to the person of Christ, there is no appreciative reason why chapter 10 be set at Hanukah, other than a possible historical memory that the incident recalled actually did occur then. It takes place in the porch of the Temple, perhaps, because it is winter and a bit drafty in the courtyards, so everyone takes shelter in the porch.

Hmm. I'd say that in the Middle East a more plausible argument would be that it was summer and they were sheltering from the sun!

Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on :

I have no problem with people celebrating any and all holidays for their own delight. But if it's in a church for educational or worship reasons, do it right or change the name you call it by.

A church I was in did a Seder one Maundy Thursday. I was glad I got hold of the program ahead of time so I knew to stay away. They made it a solemn event, appropriate for Maundy Thursday but not for Seder. Four of the symbolic foods in tiny symbolic amounts, the meal itself was soup and bread -- no feast, no wine, not a celebration! And yet they called it Seder.

Do a Maundy Thursday symbolic meal if you like, but don't call a sparse and somber event Seder. That misteaches people what to envision when they hear a Jewish person use their own word.

Same with Hanukah. Celebrate it right or change the name of what you are doing to something more accurate.

Posted by Eliab (# 9153) on :

I did a Hanukkah session for our children's group (ages 7 to 10).

We talked about the idea of dedication to God, and looked back to previous sessions about the importance of the Temple. I told the story of the miracle of the oil, which about half the children knew. We looked at John 10, where Jesus goes to Jerusalem for Hanukkah, and discussed what made us 'his sheep', a people dedicated to him - with the link to the session on the incarnation for the following week. We finished with prayers of dedication. And we had a bag of sweets and an oil lamp - eating and setting fire to things are always popular.

Obviously I emphasised the point that Hanukkah is a Jewish festival, but the focus of the session was dedication to God within the context of the gospel, which I hope was both educational and appropriate.

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