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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Addressing the Bishop
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Hairy Biker
Shipmate
# 12086
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Posted
Having taken over as Churchwarden this year during a, well, rather interesting time for our church, I find myself having occasional conversations with the Bishop. When I answer the phone he introduces himself as "hello it's Bishop N" or "it's the Bishop of X". I never know the correct form of address to reply, so I've taken to saying "hello Bishop". Is that correct, or should I call him by his first name, or some other title? He's never objected. Do all Bishops like the same form of address or should I check what's correct for each one? What advice can any of you give?
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there [are] four important things in life: religion, love, art and science. At their best, they’re all just tools to help you find a path through the darkness. None of them really work that well, but they help.
Damien Hirst
Posts: 683 | From: This Sceptred Isle | Registered: Nov 2006
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Amos
Shipmate
# 44
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Posted
'Hello, Bishop' will do just fine, especially in telephone conversations.
Different bishops prefer different degrees of formality, but generally CofE bishops prefer 'Bishop Christian Name' and TEC bishops prefer 'Bishop Surname.' 'My Lord Bishop' in conversation = 'You are intensely dislikeable.'
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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
Posts: 7667 | From: Summerisle | Registered: May 2001
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
By their Christian name, they're usually quite approachable. It's a long time since you had to form an orderly queue to kiss the ring.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
At first I was going to inquire if your bishop was a horse's ass and then answer accordingly. Then, upon rereading your post, I was flummoxed.
Your bishop places his own phone calls?
Count yourself fortunate that you do not live in one of the Imperial Dioceses where bishops are Too Important to bother with such menial tasks.
Edited to add that, around here, we still are made to feel as though we should queue up, but it is in order to kiss something else.
And, to substitute place to the anachronistic dial.
[ 23. December 2012, 21:16: Message edited by: The Silent Acolyte ]
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
At first I was going to inquire if your bishop was a horse's ass and then answer accordingly. Then, upon rereading your post, I was flummoxed.
Your bishop places his own phone calls?
Count yourself fortunate that you do not live in one of the Imperial Dioceses where bishops are Too Important to bother with such menial tasks.
Edited to add that, around here, we still are made to feel as though we should queue up, but it is in order to kiss something else.
And, to substitute place to the anachronistic dial.
I second Silent Acolyte's wonder and approbation that your bishop callsl people directly rather than through the Diocesan Archdeacon, the Executive Assistant, or the Canon to the Ordinary. However, I would suggest that, given Anglican attempts at technological innovation, the bishop's telephone may well still operate by a dial.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
In the Orthodox Church, it's "your grace" or "Vladika."
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
In the case of a phone call, I would just avoid using the name or title altogether. If I am working with him and need to get his attention, I would just use his first name. Every bishop I have met would be perfectly okay with this.
[ 23. December 2012, 21:53: Message edited by: Olaf ]
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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lily pad
Shipmate
# 11456
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Posted
Bishops here make their own phone calls, type their own letters and send their own email. However, they are almost always addressed with "bishop" before their name, even in casual conversation. I do find it strange though to work out the new etiquette, especially for archbishops!
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Sloppiness is not caring. Fussiness is caring about the wrong things. With thanks to Adeodatus!
Posts: 2468 | From: Truly Canadian | Registered: May 2006
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
In conversation, I generally address them as "Bishop," but refer to them in the 3rd person as "bishop last name."
I've never received one from him, but I know that our local ordinary makes his own phone calls. One diocesan priest I know always answers the phone to him, "Hello, bishop. What have I done wrong now?" So, apparently, he has a sense of humor too.
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
Posts: 8164 | From: Notre Dame, IN | Registered: Sep 2003
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
How do you say that in Greek?
Despota! and for your Arabic-speaking bishops, Sayedna (or sayidna, depending on your transliteration).
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
About two hours ago I addressed mine as "Bishop" following Lessons and Carols at our Cathedral.
(And yes, he often makes his own phone calls.)
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
Shaking hands after a service, or over lunch later, it's "Bishop". In the third person, it's Bishop first-name. There are only 23 dioceses here, and even with a few suffragan/regional bishops, it's usually pretty clear to whom you're referring.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Vulpior
Foxier than Thou
# 12744
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Posted
Because of the nature of the establishment of the See (some form of royal paperwork/charter/decree), I understand that the Bishop of Canberra and Goulburn is entitled to be referred to as the Lord Bishop of Canberra and Goulburn, and addressed as My Lord.
I am sure that he would not welcome such a term of address, however. As Gee D observes, Bishop Firstname is just about universal. Having said that, a recent search revealed the Anglican Church League using Bishop Lastname.
I am the sort of person who might consider a more formal mode of address in formal communication, but then I am also the sort of person who signs off letters to archdeacons with "Yours respectfully and sincerely". I learned years ago of the variety of such endings, but only ever knew the one for an archdeacon. It seems to be outdated too, as I cannot find a reference anywhere.
Our Diocesans sign +Firstname Seename.
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I've started blogging. I don't promise you'll find anything to interest you at uncleconrad
Posts: 946 | From: Mount Fairy, NSW | Registered: Jun 2007
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
As well as learning a variety of letter endings, you probably learned the value of them....
IIRC, +Newcastle and + Tasmania are lordly. Canberra/Goulburn and Bathurst may also be. ++Sydney is strictly Graceful, just as the ABC and ABY. I don't think Melbourne, Brisbane or Perth are, and almost certainly Adelaide is not. CJS would have quick access to the necessary info.
[ 24. December 2012, 07:01: Message edited by: Gee D ]
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Custard
Shipmate
# 5402
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Posted
In the UK, "Bishop Paul" (or Nigel, or Frank, or Peter, or whatever) would be absolutely normal. Some might be slightly surprised if you called them by their first name without the "bishop", but I don't know any who would object. Just "bishop" is also perfectly acceptable...
John
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Stamp thine image in its place.
Posts: 4523 | From: Snot's Place | Registered: Jan 2004
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sebby
Shipmate
# 15147
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Posted
On the rare occasions that I might meet one, I would enjoy saying 'My Lord' and watching them cringe these days.
In the event that I was addressed by a bishop and he used by Christian name, then I would do the same in return.
It seems perfectly in order to address a bishop as 'Father'. I believe this is probably the preferred style of Archbishop Rowan Williams, who isn't much interested in style and form anyway, and is happy with 'Rowan', but has such natural and self deprecating authority, that one might be tempted to use it out of natural respect.
In Anglican formularies (and Ordination and Induction services) the bishop is always referred to as 'Father-in-God' in the service, so the use of 'Father' seems very appropriate regardless of churchmanship.
The current use of 'Bishop John' or 'Bishop Fred' whilst getting over the conundrum, always seems to me to be a just little creepy. To me it it says 'I want to be modern and informal, but please remember that I am a bishop'
Perhaps in return one might say 'Oh good to hear you Bishop John. It's Doctor (or Professor) Tristram here...'
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sebhyatt
Posts: 1340 | From: yorks | Registered: Sep 2009
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
You could try 'Bish' or 'Hi Gaiters'.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sebby:
The current use of 'Bishop John' or 'Bishop Fred' whilst getting over the conundrum, always seems to me to be a just little creepy. To me it it says 'I want to be modern and informal, but please remember that I am a bishop'
Perhaps in return one might say 'Oh good to hear you Bishop John. It's Doctor (or Professor) Tristram here...'
Or Childcare Assistant Liz, or Binman Ben, or Postman Pat...
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Lynnk
Apprentice
# 16132
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Posted
How about G'day mate.
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Ok, Who washed the cat?
Posts: 22 | From: Tasmania | Registered: Jan 2011
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lily pad
Shipmate
# 11456
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sebby:
... It seems perfectly in order to address a bishop as 'Father'...
That wouldn't work here. Nope. She wouldn't like that at all.
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Sloppiness is not caring. Fussiness is caring about the wrong things. With thanks to Adeodatus!
Posts: 2468 | From: Truly Canadian | Registered: May 2006
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
Here it seems to be 'bishop', or 'bishop first name' or 'bishop last name' or just 'x' if you know them well, informally.
It's probably a slightly less complex administration here in the CofI but bishops usually do a lot of their own phoning and e-mailing, though secretaries will do some of that, too.
Generally, you can address him anyway you like; just be careful where you can put the stamp! ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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sebby
Shipmate
# 15147
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by sebby:
The current use of 'Bishop John' or 'Bishop Fred' whilst getting over the conundrum, always seems to me to be a just little creepy. To me it it says 'I want to be modern and informal, but please remember that I am a bishop'
Perhaps in return one might say 'Oh good to hear you Bishop John. It's Doctor (or Professor) Tristram here...'
Or Childcare Assistant Liz, or Binman Ben, or Postman Pat...
Exactly.
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sebhyatt
Posts: 1340 | From: yorks | Registered: Sep 2009
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Circuit Rider
Ship's Itinerant
# 13088
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Posted
I've heard UMC bishops joke that when they become bishop they lose their first name. Protocol is much less formal in American Methodism, but generally we call bishops either "Bishop" or "Bishop Lastname."
Our previous bishop liked for people to call him by his first name without title, but I couldn't bring myself to do that. I always use "Bishop," even if he begins the conversation by using his first name.
Once he actually called me, on the phone, while in his car. I missed the call, but he left a voice mail saying, "Hello, this is Will ..."
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I felt my heart strangely warmed ... and realised I had spilt hot coffee all over myself.
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shamwari
Shipmate
# 15556
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Posted
I prefer to be known as + Robert Caddington
Posts: 1914 | From: from the abyss of misunderstanding | Registered: Mar 2010
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Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
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Posted
In my patristics class, my prof asked me "Do you think we should be concerned regarding priests calling their bishops "My Lord" that they might confuse the bishop with God?"
I said "We are ANGLICANS. We do not have to worry about that problem."
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It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
Posts: 4332 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
How do you say that in Greek?
Despota! and for your Arabic-speaking bishops, Sayedna (or sayidna, depending on your transliteration).
AtA, Despite punctuation to the contrary, that was not a question. I was poking mousethief in the eye, because he said: "In the Orthodox Church, it's "your grace" or "Vladika."
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
How do you say that in Greek?
Bladikos.
[ 24. December 2012, 19:01: Message edited by: mousethief ]
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sebby:
The current use of 'Bishop John' or 'Bishop Fred' whilst getting over the conundrum, always seems to me to be a just little creepy. To me it it says 'I want to be modern and informal, but please remember that I am a bishop'
I hear it as monastic, not informal: Brother Gregory; Father John; Bishop Jeffrey; Presiding Bishop Katharine; Archbishop Rowan.
Posts: 3823 | Registered: May 2004
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
Yes, it's a bit strange that some Christians are wary of addressing their clergy by their Christian name.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
How do you say that in Greek?
Despota! and for your Arabic-speaking bishops, Sayedna (or sayidna, depending on your transliteration).
AtA, Despite punctuation to the contrary, that was not a question. I was poking mousethief in the eye, because he said: "In the Orthodox Church, it's "your grace" or "Vladika."
I am so literal at times, and I just cannot stop myself from being helpful. Shipmates are now prepared for all eventualities.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Mr. Rob
Shipmate
# 5823
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hairy Biker:
" ...hello Bishop... "
...What advice can any of you give?
You have come down just right. Say, "Hello, bishop." Anything else sounds contrived, unless the bishop asks for something else. The milord thingy is over the top and often used in a joking way. Don't go there. We should call Rowan, "archbishop," or, "Your grace," for now, even though most everyone round the world knows who Rowan (Williams) is and refers to him as plain "Rowan." But I sure wouldn't address him that way to his face unless he asked me to. (Fat chance of that!).
All that said, I have had friends who became bishops. In those cases, I continued to address them by their first names because that is what they preferred when with old friends or family. I think that custom is pretty universal.among promoted pals.
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Posts: 862 | From: USA | Registered: Apr 2004
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Sergius-Melli
Shipmate
# 17462
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hairy Biker:
Having taken over as Churchwarden this year during a, well, rather interesting time for our church, I find myself having occasional conversations with the Bishop. When I answer the phone he introduces himself as "hello it's Bishop N" or "it's the Bishop of X". I never know the correct form of address to reply, so I've taken to saying "hello Bishop". Is that correct, or should I call him by his first name, or some other title? He's never objected. Do all Bishops like the same form of address or should I check what's correct for each one? What advice can any of you give?
I'm not sure where the people suggesting you say Bishop [Surname] are coming from, it is not a form I have seen prescribed as the Bishop takes on the title of their Diocese upon enthronement and their surname becomes somewhat mute... So Rev. (he wouldn't appreciate Fthr.) Robert Paterson become the Lord Bishop of Sodor and Man and signs his documents as +Robert Sodor and Man...
The simple, and courteous, rule of thumb is to, on the first occassion in the conversation use the appropriate, Your Grace/My Lord, and then to continue with Bishop [First name] or Fthr.
It's a shame that more people do not genuflect to the authority and Apostolic Succession (THAT is not a conversation for here!) that the Bishop represents and is Consecrated in...
Posts: 722 | From: Sneaking across Welsh hill and dale with a thurible in hand | Registered: Dec 2012
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
I always find this one entertaining. The clergy from my own diocese usually answer the phone with "Your Grace" (I am my denominations Presiding Bishop) and then swap to my first name or Bishop firstname as they cannot quite drop the old formal address altogether.
Folks calling me from another diocese tend to stick with 'Your Grace' all the way through the conversation - especially if they want something, or they want to argue with me. However, most folks prefer to tackle me by e-mail as that gives me time to think, and you are far more likely to get my approval if I am not put on the spot.
Lay-folks in my own parish call me Father out of habit - which I am a little too protestant to feel 100% comfortable with, but then there is the pond difference to consider! (I am English and Central Churchmanship, but I live in the USA.) If someone slips up and is embarrassed I find that some quip like, 'You can call me anything you like except late for dinner!' recovers the situation for them.
Like the C of I bishops we do most of our own emailing and phoning around. I have some secretarial assistance (from my wife!) but I won't waste her time on jobs I can do myself.
PD
[ 25. December 2012, 05:16: Message edited by: PD ]
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Roadkill on the Information Super Highway!
My Assorted Rantings - http://www.theoldhighchurchman.blogspot.com
Posts: 4431 | From: Between a Rock and a Hard Place | Registered: Mar 2007
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
As an American Lutheran, I address my ELCA bishop by first name, but--hey--we are all on a first name basis in this neck of the woods.
When it comes to addressing the Presiding Bishop of the ELCA I would probably go by title, though Mark is known to introduce himself by first name.
If the person introduces himself by first name, it is permissible to use first name.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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Emendator Liturgia
Shipmate
# 17245
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sergius-Melli:
The simple, and courteous, rule of thumb is to, on the first occassion in the conversation use the appropriate, Your Grace/My Lord, and then to continue with Bishop [First name] or Fthr.
It might be a difference in provinces etc - but here Lord Bishop is only applicable if the dioces has been established by Letters Patent (and I thought that in the UK only if the Bishop sat in the House of Lords); and Your Grace is a term used only of and by Archbishops.
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Don't judge all Anglicans in Sydney by prevailing Diocesan standards!
Posts: 401 | From: Sydney, Australia | Registered: Jul 2012
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
Our pastor told this joke on Sunday:
These three women were discussing their sons. The first lady said, "My son is a judge. Whenever people address him, they say 'Your Honor.'"
The second lady said "Pffth, My son is a bishop. Whenever people address him it is "'Your Grace.'"
The third lady said, "You got nothing on my son! He is a Chippendale dancer and male model. When people see him, they say, 'Oh, my God!'"
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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sebby
Shipmate
# 15147
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Posted
That's very good and reminds me of a story about compulsory chapel at Eton.
One day an overseas pupil who was a foreign royal was sent to the Conduct (senior chaplain) by his housemaster to explain why he objected to going to chapel.
The Conduct waved aside his protestations saying 'We all go. What makes you so special?'
'Well I'm a god, Sir'
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sebhyatt
Posts: 1340 | From: yorks | Registered: Sep 2009
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Emendator Liturgia:
... (and I thought that in the UK only if the Bishop sat in the House of Lords)...
When I worked for the Church Commissioners c 1990 the practice was to address letters to Diocesans to 'the Lord Bishop of X', regardless of whether or not the Bishop was in the Lords (or even could be, since Gibraltar & Sodor and Man were addressed the same way). Suffragans were 'the Rt Revd the Bishop of Y'
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sergius-Melli:
I'm not sure where the people suggesting you say Bishop [Surname] are coming from, it is not a form I have seen prescribed as the Bishop takes on the title of their Diocese upon enthronement and their surname becomes somewhat mute...
What if they're not Bishop of a diocese? How would you refer to +Lindsay Urwin for instance?
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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
Posts: 12860 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Rather more politely than I would refer to + Wallace Benn? ![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif)
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Amos
Shipmate
# 44
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
quote:
Originally posted by Sergius-Melli:
I'm not sure where the people suggesting you say Bishop [Surname] are coming from, it is not a form I have seen prescribed as the Bishop takes on the title of their Diocese upon enthronement and their surname becomes somewhat mute...
What if they're not Bishop of a diocese? How would you refer to +Lindsay Urwin for instance?
Mr Urwin.
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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
Posts: 7667 | From: Summerisle | Registered: May 2001
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John Holding
Coffee and Cognac
# 158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sergius-Melli:
I'm not sure where the people suggesting you say Bishop [Surname] are coming from, it is not a form I have seen prescribed as the Bishop takes on the title of their Diocese upon enthronement and their surname becomes somewhat mute... So Rev. (he wouldn't appreciate Fthr.) Robert Paterson become the Lord Bishop of Sodor and Man and signs his documents as +Robert Sodor and Man...
Moot, not mute.
And, while I realize you are writing from the CofE, this is an international board and in most of the rest of the (Anglican) world, bishops no longer take the names of their dioceses.
John
Posts: 5929 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: May 2001
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
The two most recent bishops of Ottawa sign(ed) as +Peter and +John, but the third most recent was +John Ottawa. John Holding is, I think, right in that the custom is dying out. Some of these pairings had a ring to them, such as +Archibald the Arctic, +John Toronto, +John Moosonee, and +Reginald Athabasca and, while it was an anachronism, it had a certain depth to it, reflecting the union between a bishop and his role as teacher and guide in a particular place.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
Some day I'll find the details of the story about a meeting of bishops at which the Bishop of Albany, New York, signed himself +Robert Albany. The Bishop of Western New York saw that and signed himself +Buffalo Bill.
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Vulpior
Foxier than Thou
# 12744
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Posted
Dear Fr Zappa
It is the one formal ending I remember, so it is a delight to use it on occasion.
Yours respectfully and sincerely
Vulpior
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I've started blogging. I don't promise you'll find anything to interest you at uncleconrad
Posts: 946 | From: Mount Fairy, NSW | Registered: Jun 2007
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Mr. Rob
Shipmate
# 5823
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sergius-Melli:
I'm not sure where the people suggesting you say Bishop [Surname] are coming from, i
The simple, and courteous, rule of thumb is to, on the first occassion in the conversation use the appropriate, Your Grace/My Lord, and then to continue with Bishop [First name] or Fthr.
It's a shame that more people do not genuflect to the authority and Apostolic Succession (THAT is not a conversation for here!) that the Bishop represents and is Consecrated in...
It comes from common usage in America and a great deal of the Commonwealth, Scotland, Wales and Ireland. For a lot of those places, what you have suggested is way over the top these days, and I know that many bishops would find such practices odd or humorous.
*
[ 27. December 2012, 09:13: Message edited by: Mr. Rob ]
Posts: 862 | From: USA | Registered: Apr 2004
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Emendator Liturgia
Shipmate
# 17245
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by John Holding:
And, while I realize you are writing from the CofE, this is an international board and in most of the rest of the (Anglican) world, bishops no longer take the names of their dioceses.
John
Quite a few members of the Australian episcopal bench identify with their diocese. Tends to be those more in the Catholic arm of Mother Church, mind you.
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Don't judge all Anglicans in Sydney by prevailing Diocesan standards!
Posts: 401 | From: Sydney, Australia | Registered: Jul 2012
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