Ship of Fools: Confused

Thread: Confused Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by shamwari (# 15556) on :

Unless I have very bad eyesight my lectionary says for Sunday after Christmas the story of the boy Jesus in the Temple aged 12.

Then it goes to Epiphany which Matthew places at the birth.

Then it goes to Baptism of Christ.

Can somebody make sense of this to me?

Posted by Gramps49 (# 16378) on :

I think the problem is that you are trying to keep everything in chronological order while missing the truth of the Gospel lesson which is in the last verse: that Jesus grew in wisdom and the favor of God and the people.

BTW, the visit of the magi probably did not happen immediately after the birth, but up to two years after Jesus had been born, since Herod ordered the killing of the children younger than two.

The church did not necessarily keep everything in chronological order when it set up the new lectionary. I think it was trying to get at the underlying truths of who Jesus was and is.

Posted by Olaf (# 11804) on :

This upcoming Sunday is a good example of local deviation from the RCL. The Episcopal church, while adopting the RCL, has chosen to retain John 1:1- as the Gospel of the day,

Functionally, this allows TEC churches to use Luke 2 (1-20 or (8-20) on Christmas morning and to allow a much larger crowd to experience John 1 on the Sunday thereafter.

In further iterations of the RCL, which I am sure are bound to happen, I would like to see John 1 be the Gospel for the First Sunday of Christmas, and to see shorter readings (do we really need the "blood" verse on Christmas Eve, or can we shorten to the Roman Catholic Lectionary for Mass length of reading?)

Posted by Spike (# 36) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
I think the problem is that you are trying to keep everything in chronological order while missing the truth of the Gospel lesson which is in the last verse: that Jesus grew in wisdom and the favor of God and the people.

That's right. The Lectionary isn't supposed to be a chronological account of the life of Jesus. We go from his birth to his death & resurrection within a few months. What of the rest of the year from Ascension to Advent? Should we only have Gospel reading following events after the Ascension?

Posted by Circuit Rider (# 13088) on :

I think the Lectionary is intended to be more theological and doctrinal than chronological. It presupposes that the readings will be followed during the week and on special days so that the full thought procession can be experienced.

As for Jesus in the temple as a child, I had to think a while to arrive at why that text might fit into Christmas, then it dawned on me that Christmas is about the incarnation, not just the birth. The story of Jesus as a twelve-year-old occurs just before his bar mitzvah, which usher's him into adulthood. We are allowed to see the remarkable presence of God in him as a child. Luke makes a big deal about him growing in the nurture and admonition of the Lord.

Epiphany is about discovery of the Messiah by the Gentile magi, so it follows the doctrine of incarnation by observing that once God became incarnate, the world began to take notice. Subsequent texts in the Sundays after Epiphany show how Christ is revealed or discovered, from the baptism narrative where God speaks, and the wedding at Cana, where the disciples recognize him, all the way through to the transfiguration, where God speaks again.

To me when you view it that way it makes more sense. Christmas is not just a manger scene, it is the incarnation of God among us in its various ways, including a precocious but amazing pre-teen in the temple.

Posted by Hart (# 4991) on :

The Sunday after Christmas is the Holy Family in the Roman Rite, hence the story of the finding of the child Jesus in the Temple. Then, the next Sunday in most of the English-speaking world is Epiphany transferred. If we didn't transfer it, it would make more sense, as then the Sunday lectionary would go: Birth, Childhood, Baptism, Ministry; and Epiphany would be a midweek feast. It might help if you think of Epiphany as a (blessed) 'liturgical intrusion' into a sequence.

Posted by shamwari (# 15556) on :

As it is written "Can any good thing come out of Middle America"?

Answer Yes.

I am doing what Olaf suggests and using John 1 for first Sunday of Christmas.

Posted by Imersge Canfield (# 17431) on :

They are all - and more( Bsptism, Cana etc) - part of the Epiphany cycle' all er epiphanies, shewings of Diving glory

and the sheer glorious mystical beauty of it to eye of faith

& Joy beyond words, beyond history.

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Hart:
The Sunday after Christmas is the Holy Family in the Roman Rite, hence the story of the finding of the child Jesus in the Temple. Then, the next Sunday in most of the English-speaking world is Epiphany transferred.

Transferred? This year the Sunday is 6 January.

Posted by Forthview (# 12376) on :

That's like what I once heard from lovely Irish priest over 50 years ago when the Epiphany happened to fall on a SundayHe said Epiphany would have been a Holyday of Obligation if it hadn't fallen on a Sunday.
True enough but he seemed to have forgotten that every Sunday is already a Holyday of Obligation.

Posted by Olaf (# 11804) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Forthview:
That's like what I once heard from lovely Irish priest over 50 years ago when the Epiphany happened to fall on a SundayHe said Epiphany would have been a Holyday of Obligation if it hadn't fallen on a Sunday.

Do you know any of the history behind why Epiphany is not a holy day of obligation in the English-speaking world? It seems to make the cut in Italy, at least, and I imagine some other places in Europe.

quote:
shamwari:
As it is written "Can any good thing come out of Middle America"?

Answer Yes.

I am doing what Olaf suggests and using John 1 for first Sunday of Christmas.

I'm going to blame this all squarely on the Episcopalians! Be warned that this trick does not work in years that have a Second Sunday of Christmas, as the RCL Gospel for that Sunday is John 1.

That said, the RCL could do worse than take my friendly suggestions, pulled together over two decades of use...

Posted by The Scrumpmeister (# 5638) on :

quote:
Originally posted by shamwari:
I am doing what Olaf suggests and using John 1 for first Sunday of Christmas.

You know you've naturalised into the Byzantine Rite when you watch televised services on "western" Christmas, hear the Prologue to St John's Gospel, and wonder, "Why are they reading the Paschal Vigil Gospel?" I was confused for about two or three seconds before I realised how silly my confusion was.

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

Huh.

It's my turn to preach on January 13th (The Baptism of Christ, according to the C of E lectionary) - I'd much rather preach on the Epiphany, coz all I'd need to do is to read Eliot's 'A cold coming we had of it....'

[Mad]

Ian J.

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
I'd much rather preach on the Epiphany, coz all I'd need to do is to read Eliot's 'A cold coming ...'

Most Epiphanies I've been preaching with a cold coming, if not in full spate.

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

[Killing me]

....but

for all those suffering from Colds, Flu, or (even worse Man-Flu.....!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ian J.

Posted by Forthview (# 12376) on :

The Epiphany is a Holyday of Obligation in Scotland which is a sort of English speaking country but for some years now it has been moved from the 6th January to the nearest Sunday after or before the 6th January.
When Napoleon came to an agreement with the Catholic church after the Revolution it was agreed that there would be 4 public holidays apart from Sundays for religious reasons. Christmas,Ascension,Assumption and All Saints.
Since 1804 Epiphany in France has been celebrated popularly on 6th Jan but not as a church holiday until the following Sunday.
The same thing happened in Italy in 1970 where the 4 religious holydays were Christmas,Assumption,All Saints and Immaculate Conceptionthere was an outcry about Epiphany because it is a day of popular celebration when children receive presents from the 'Befana' and the government was forced to make this a holiday again.
It is a day of popular celebrations in many countries of Europe perhaps most noticeably in Spain - and of course a public holiday and Holyday of Obligation for Catholics - and don't forget the 6th January an important holiday for Byzantine rite Orthodox and Catholics where the liturgy reccalls the manifestation of Christ at his baptism rather than at the visit of the Magi.
This gives rise to many popular ceremonies with the plunging of a cross into the water and diving in to retrieve it.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:

quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
I'd much rather preach on the Epiphany, coz all I'd need to do is to read Eliot's 'A cold coming ...'
Most Epiphanies I've been preaching with a cold coming, if not in full spate.

You need to go to bed with Night Nurse.

Posted by Hart (# 4991) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:

quote:
Originally posted by Hart:
The Sunday after Christmas is the Holy Family in the Roman Rite, hence the story of the finding of the child Jesus in the Temple. Then, the next Sunday in most of the English-speaking world is Epiphany transferred.
Transferred? This year the Sunday is 6 January.

Well, bumped this year. Transfered most other years.

Posted by 3rdFooter (# 9751) on :

The regret I have with the RCL is that Holy Innocents tends to get lost altogether. I'm not asking for precedence but in a three year lectionary, it would be good to vary some of the festivals or give the choice. Might be pastorally useful some times.

3F

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