Ship of Fools: Every (Yawn) Verse.

Thread: Every (Yawn) Verse. Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Mamacita (# 3659) on :

Is it required, as proper liturgical practice, to sing every verse of a hymn? I have been told that a hymn is a “complete theological thought” and that to remove any verse is to do harm to the overall message. My former rector would drive this point home by quipping that “if you sing only the first verse of A Mighty Fortress, the Devil wins.”

That's cute, but limited. A look at the original versions of many hymns suggests that the editors of our hymnals have done some picking-and-choosing of their own. Further, the TEC hymnal (perhaps others, I don't know) occasionally marks a verse with an asterisk, indicating it can be omitted -- not that my shack ever does that.

I confess to have found myself irritated this morning as we slogged through all six verses of The First Nowell for the recessional hymn. It's a fine hymn, to be sure, but two verses were sufficient to cover the movement of our short-staffed holiday choir down a 75-foot aisle. Three verses would have been lovely and not yawn-inducing.

Could we not have sung, for instance, the first two verses and the sixth verse? That would have the additional benefit if avoiding the whole Wise Men tangent ahead of Epiphany, but I digress. My question isn't really about this particular hymn but about hymns in general, especially the ones with upwards of five verses.

What is the practice at your place? Every blessèd verse, or is editing allowed? If exceptions are made, who makes them?

[ 30. December 2012, 23:10: Message edited by: Mamacita ]

Posted by Bostonman (# 17108) on :

The various congregations in my life (Congregational and Episcopalian) have all dropped verses at times. Especially with Christmas carols, this can be overdone (by only using the most popular verses and leaving some out that involve the word "sin" or have some theological meat in them). But it's always been used on the fly to compensate for over-long sermons, God having said to certain denominations that it be an abomination unto the Lord to go over an hour.

Posted by Net Spinster (# 16058) on :

I suspect they cut sometimes but as we use service sheets not a hymnal, they can hide it by renumbering.

Decisions are made by the associate dean (its an university chapel) who is Episcopalian and the organist (I strongly suspect the organist would be in favor of never cutting, he is quite high church even though, I think, a buddhist [or atheist]).

Posted by Barefoot Friar (# 13100) on :

There's an old saying around here:

"I'm feeling as left out as the third verse of a Baptist hymn."

Take from that what you will.

We always sing all the verses, but that's mainly because right now we have no pianist or organist and are forced to use CDs. It's only marginally better than singing a capella.

Posted by Olaf (# 11804) on :

We sing The First Nowell after the sermon on Christmas Eve. After singing the whole thing last year, somebody (ehem) unilaterally made the decision to cut it down to two verses. We are going to sing a couple other verses on Epiphany, though.

I should have known it would come back to haunt me.

ETA:
Oh, to answer your question, the music committee usually notices these things and makes the shortening decision. Sometimes the pastor does on the fly (to cover for lengthy preaching...this is not looked favorably upon as it victimizes only the later hymns), and sometimes the organist decides on the fly and stops playing. The latter happens often when the nested 4 or 5 verses stop and we would jump to the extra music-less verses at the bottom of the page or the top of the next.

[ 31. December 2012, 00:58: Message edited by: Olaf ]

Posted by the giant cheeseburger (# 10942) on :

Any edict that you must do the whole hymn gets more complicated once you have one that's been modified many times since the original hymn was written.

Take as an example Amazing Grace. There is the original version with six verses...

1. Amazing grace, how sweet the sound
2. 'Twas grace that taught my hear to fear
3. Through many dangers, toils and snares
4. The Lord has promised good to me
5. Yes, when this flesh and heart shall fail
6. The earth shall soon dissolve like snow

Then there is the 'extra' verse "when we've been there ten thousand years" of which the source is unknown, apart from being that it was not from the original author. More recently a newer arrangement featuring verses 1, 2, 4, 6 and the new "my chains are gone" refrain has become the 'normal' version for many people.

When growing up I always heard it used as verses 1, 2, 3 and "when we've been there" - I think the Australian Hymn Book even included it as only those verses, ignoring verses 4-6.

So if I was told to 'sing the whole hymn' and not cut out anything, there are at least four options open here...

a) Newton's original six verses, including the somewhat awkward verse 5.

b) Newton's original six verses, plus "when we've been there ten thousand years."

c) The previous 'normal' arrangement of Newton's verses 1, 2, 3 and "when we've been there."

d) The new 'normal' arrangement of verses 1, 2, 4, 6 and the Tomlin/Giglio "my chains are gone" refrain.

e) Some other combination which is considered the "normal" version in that local faith community.

If you add in the fact that the English version was originally translated from some other language (e.g. A Mighty Fortress, How Great Thou Art among others) then things can get even more complicated if somebody decides to redo the translation from scratch!

I would also add that I think any hymn with seven or more verses needs to have the opposite instruction applied - i.e. "you must NEVER do the whole hymn."
One reason is time consumption, the other is that the chance of a verse or two being rubbish that shouldn't have made it in increases as the number of verses increases.

Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on :

I grew up in a one verse church. And yes in Mighty Fortress the devil won. Later they switched to usually 3 verses, first two and last; looking through the 1940 hymnal, those are the verses I know, the others are utterly unfamiliar.

Recently I'm hearing all the verses in the hymnal, which if a Wesley wrote the hymn is probably only 5 of the dozen or more original verses. One wonders if people use to sing all those now never heard verses, but they didn't have radio and TV, if you wanted music you did it yourself, so maybe they did sing all dozen or more.

Posted by Mamacita (# 3659) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Olaf:
... sometimes the organist decides on the fly and stops playing. The latter happens often when the nested 4 or 5 verses stop and we would jump to the extra music-less verses at the bottom of the page or the top of the next.

Just stops playing, as in, the congo sings the first couple of syllables and then stops, embarrassed, as they realize the musical bottom has dropped out from under them? (I've experienced this a couple of times and it's awkward, to say the least.) Or do people know to expect it, based on how the hymn is printed on the page?

Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mamacita:
I confess to have found myself irritated this morning as we slogged through all six verses of The First Nowell for the recessional hymn.

Tedious tune doesn't help. Especially for walking backwards. [Razz]

Posted by Gill H (# 68) on :

The worst to try and cut is 'While Shepherds Watched' as it doesn't make sense if you do. One reason not to sing it to the otherwise fun 'Ilkley Moor' as it goes on for ages.

Posted by Barnabas Aus (# 15869) on :

Given that the carol is written in triple time, Mamacita, one must ask whether the sanctuary party waltzed to the west door. There are many more appropriate and upliftingtunes for a recessional.

In our little country church, where our nonagenarian organist still pedals the harmonium, we generally limit hymns to three verses, as that is the limit of her stamina, and all that is needed for the procession, taking up the offertory and the recessional.

Posted by gog (# 15615) on :

Hymn books have been trimming for years, otherwise we would still be singing all 20 verses of most Wesley hymns and not the lighter 3 to 6 we do.

though I'd say the main issue is those who don't listen to the amendment or forget and end up singing the wrong verse (hence is planning this printed sheets work well).

[ 31. December 2012, 09:28: Message edited by: gog ]

Posted by Trisagion (# 5235) on :

The Catholic habit in Britain and Ireland is to trim savagely. Hymns are used (as opposed to should be used) mostly to provide musical cover for action - processions etc - and as soon as the processions are done, organists, music groups, congregations can hardly be persuaded to carry on. Given British and Irish Catholics' habitual reluctance to sing anyway and the picking up of wider cultural trends life can become simultaneously annoying and very funny. Two examples from our Christmas liturgies will suffice to illustrate this.

(i) On the fourth Sunday of Advent we began Mass with John Mason Neale's "O come, o come Emmanuel". The Parish Priest had asked me to preach on the "O Antiphons" from which Neale made his translation and which provide a meditation on the titles of the Messiah from Isaiah. It wasn't enough to deal with the fact that the version in our hymnal had only five of the seven verses - unhelpfully leaving out the titles "Lord of Might" and "King of the Peoples" but, because the procession took only long enough for the first verse, chorus and second verse, the music stopped even before we'd sung the second chorus.

(ii) Yesterday, at the Offertory Procession - the organist and choir being on holiday - the PP turned to me and said: "Start them singing the next hymn." The next hymn was "Once in Royal David City", which I duly began unaccompanied. The plebs sancta dei Novasilvensis, clearly recalling the protocol that the first verse is sung unaccompanied by a small boy in a clear treble voice simply sat there as a large fat deacon with a wavering baritone sang the whole verse. Then to add insult to injury promptly fell silent.

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

Prior planning is essential. Non-eucharistic services, and 'hymn sandwiches', where the hymns themselves are essential parts of the liturgy, are different from eucharistic ones where in general they are used to cover actions in the liturgy.

Hymns might be, and in this case are, secondary elements in the liturgy, but they have their own integrity. It is possible to shorten them either by omitting the verses starred in some hymn-books, or by intelligent vetting. The selection should pay regard to the function of the hymn in the liturgy: setting the mood of the season/feast; invitation to worship/reflection on God's presence in communion/ mission etc. A pre-gospel ('gradual') hymn needs to be fairly short unless a very elaborate gospel procession is the custom. On the other hand, an offertory hymn that has to cover the preparation of the elements, the collection of money, the various processions back and forth, and maybe too the incensing of the altar and congregation, needs to be fairly long.

But I don't think it is ever a good idea to cut a hymn short arbitrarily. Especially without warning. This can lead to the nonsensical situation when a hymn is cut short mid-sentence because the priest has arrived at the altar, or whatever.

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

The cutting-short of hymns simply because 'We don't want to keep Father waiting' is An Abomination Unto The Lord. It has happened at our place in the past, but with the departure of A Certain Cabal to pastures new, it has ceased.....

We try to match hymns to the readings/theme, usually ensuring that we have a longish one for the Offertory, and a shorter and more reflective one for Communion (and the ablutions). We have a fairly wide and eclectic repertoire, which makes it easier to make suitable choices.

There is a case for selective choice of verses of some hymns (e.g. 'O come, all ye faithful' and 'The first Nowell'), but I agree that, with some hymns, to omit any of the verses destroys the meaning.

BTW, I note that the English Hymnal does quite often * a verse or two, indicating that it/they are optional - I wonder if that was indeed for the purpose of 'not keeping Father waiting'?

Ian J.

Posted by Hairy Biker (# 12086) on :

We always omit the * verses whenever there are '*'s in the hymnbook. What else are the '*'s for?

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:

BTW, I note that the English Hymnal does quite often * a verse or two, indicating that it/they are optional - I wonder if that was indeed for the purpose of 'not keeping Father waiting'?

Ian J.

The Vice-principal of my theological college believed they were the verses with the best theology.

Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :

quote:
Originally posted by the giant cheeseburger:
Take as an example Amazing Grace. There is the original version with six verses...

1. Amazing grace, how sweet the sound
2. 'Twas grace that taught my hear to fear
3. Through many dangers, toils and snares
4. The Lord has promised good to me
5. Yes, when this flesh and heart shall fail
6. The earth shall soon dissolve like snow

Then there is the 'extra' verse "when we've been there ten thousand years" of which the source is unknown, apart from being that it was not from the original author.

That is fascinating there is a huge language difference between verse seven and the other six. The pronouns change from singular to plural and the verbs from past to future tense.

Jengie

Posted by seasick (# 48) on :

I'd agree with those who raise the question of the liturgical integrity of hymns as such. Certainly within my own (Methodist) tradition they form an important part of the service and those leading worship will (should!) have chosen them to fit the day, the place in the service and so on. I have written hymns before now when I haven't been able to find one that does what is required. If I wanted to be polemic, I'd say an equivalent complaint might be that a preacher preached every (yawn) paragraph of his/her sermon... [Two face]

Or if we announced that today we'd be having paragraphs 1, 4 and 5 of Eucharistic prayer 3?

Posted by shamwari (# 15556) on :

As a mere Methodist its not for me to criticise.

But I sometimes truncate hymns by omitting verses.

One such is Isaac Watts' "When I survey". I often omit the verse beginning "His dying crimson like a robe" on the grounds that it breaks the connection which is evident throughout the rest of the verses. Plus I am not su8re what it means anyway.

And I abominate using hymns as cover for actions and movement. It belittles the words which are supposed to be important.

Posted by Siegfried (# 29) on :

The rather middle-of-the-road Presbyterian church I attended as a young ferret used the 1/2/last verse pattern for most hymns. In fact, this was so ingrained, that it was nearly impossible to get the congregation to do the 3rd verse, even if there were only 4--they'd skip right to the end.

Posted by Bax (# 16572) on :

Personally, I have a problem with missing out verses just because we can't be bothered to sing them. If so maybe you should just choose another hymn?

However there are, to use the jargon, "Pastoral reasons" for omitting verses on some occasions e.g if there is another service to get to (which is not uncommon in some parts where clergy have to cover numerous churches)

There are some verses missed out for political or theological reasons. e.g the verse from "All things bright and beautiful"

The rich man in his castle,
The poor man at his gate,
He made them, high or lowly,
And ordered their estate.

which most people would not support the underlying theology (even given that it was a hymn for children originally)

However sometimes it is political correctness gone mad. e.g omitting the last verse of "To mercy pity peace and Love" (Blake)

And all must love the human form,
In heathen, Turk or Jew.
Where Mercy, Love & Pity dwell,
There God is dwelling too.

To modern ears it sounds "uncomfortable" to put is so bluntly, but the sentiment of Blake expresses the underlying assumption of the contemporary life (but we don't like to say it so bluntly...)

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

quote:
Originally posted by shamwari:

And I abominate using hymns as cover for actions and movement. It belittles the words which are supposed to be important.

Understandable in a Methodist (no snark intended, just that I see where you are coming from), but illustrates the difference between a linear and a non-linear approach to liturgy. If it is important that we should all be doing the same thing at the same time (or at least listening to one person at a time), then you are right. Contrast this with an Orthodox liturgy which is much more multi-layered; prayers and chants and movement all going on simultaneously, all involving different people, but woven into a whole.

The Scrumpmeister of this parish has written a lot about this. Maybe he can be tempted to add his wisdom to this thread.

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mamacita:

I confess to have found myself irritated this morning as we slogged through all six verses of The First Nowell for the recessional hymn.

Yesterday, we had all EIGHT verses of The First Nowell as a gradual hymn, where four verses of anything is quite enough. (I'd prefer just a sung alleluia.)

The hymn between the notices and blessing (which has no liturgical function that I can tell) was O Come All Ye Faithful. Without anyone saying the last verse (Ye lord we greet thee born this happy morning) was omitted (as it should be at anytime other than am 25 December.)

Posted by PRESBY DUDE (# 16035) on :

Interesting comments! I haven't anything great to add, but I'll throw in my two cents' worth.

I always reasoned that one should sing all the verses that a hymnal offered. After all, I was an English major at university an eon or two ago. I thought that I knew a thing or two about poetry, and hymns are poems. I looked down my toffy nose at churches that omitted verses of hymnals.

Then came "The First Nowell" (or "Noel") and its six verses in the blue Presbyterian Hymnal. Like some others, I found that about three verses (it is a LENGTHY hymn anyway!) were about all that I could endure before the uncharitable thoughts reigned supreme.

I recall a verse from "Rejoice, Ye Pure in Heart" that was common in earlier hymnals:

Bright youth and snow-crowned age,
Strong men and maidens meek,
Raise high your free, exalting song,
God's wondrous praises speak!

Our female choir director in those days - properly committed in the 1970's to women's rights - firmly refused to allow that verse to be sung in church. "That's just a 'no', and I mean it! Maidens meek indeed! That's stupid!" she pronounced.

May I ascend my soap box to make my own pronouncement? Regardless of how many verses are sung, I am sick of - tired of - exhausted by - bored by "Amazing Grace". Yes, I know its rich history. I confess that it's essentially a fine hymn. In fact, I often say that I liked it the first 2,000 times I heard it. But I really dread that overworked war horse anymore. If it's sung at my funeral (and I've left instructions that's NOT to happen), my malevolent ghost shall haunt whomever chooses and plays it.

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

Almost certainly, most hymnals edit hymns to be other than they were originally written.

Hark the herald angels is an adaption of C Wesley's words, and I only once remember singing the verse with the imagery of the Immaculate Conception: "Rise, the woman's conquering seed,
bruise in us the serpent's head".

[ 31. December 2012, 16:34: Message edited by: venbede ]

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

quote:
Originally posted by shamwari:
As a mere Methodist its not for me to criticise.

But I sometimes truncate hymns by omitting verses.

One such is Isaac Watts' "When I survey". I often omit the verse beginning "His dying crimson like a robe" on the grounds that it breaks the connection which is evident throughout the rest of the verses. Plus I am not su8re what it means anyway.

And I abominate using hymns as cover for actions and movement. It belittles the words which are supposed to be important.

As a Methodist layperson, my experience is that clergy and lay preachers don't seem too troubled by cutting out verses occasionally. Sometimes this is obviously planned in advance, but at other times it seems to occur when there's a fear of 'overrunning'. Usually, though, overrunning means that a hymn will be skipped entirely.

Posted by the giant cheeseburger (# 10942) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:

quote:
Originally posted by the giant cheeseburger:
Take as an example Amazing Grace. There is the original version with six verses...

1. Amazing grace, how sweet the sound
2. 'Twas grace that taught my hear to fear
3. Through many dangers, toils and snares
4. The Lord has promised good to me
5. Yes, when this flesh and heart shall fail
6. The earth shall soon dissolve like snow

Then there is the 'extra' verse "when we've been there ten thousand years" of which the source is unknown, apart from being that it was not from the original author.
That is fascinating there is a huge language difference between verse seven and the other six. The pronouns change from singular to plural and the verbs from past to future tense.

Jengie

Interesting, I see the shift in tense happening between verses 1-3 (past/present) and 4-6 (future), but I do agree that it's pretty obvious that "when we've been there" is so completely different you wonder how anybody ever accepted it as being part of the same hymn. I find it too sentimental and sickly sweet, overall a very questionable inclusion that seems more appropriate for the big secular events where it gets wheeled out than as part of Christian worship.

I used to be bored by Amazing Grace, until Chris Tomlin and Louie Giglio worked it over a few years ago and we stopped singing it as just the first three verses and "when we've been there." Using more of Newton's original verses, dropping that extra verse and adding the triumphant refrain (which fits with Newton's words very well) have, in my opinion, made it a much more powerful statement about the Kingdom. It's no longer just sweet and sentimental, it leaves you a little challenged.

All things in moderation though, it helps that it's not done too regularly in our congregation.

Posted by ken (# 2460) on :

I like singing hymns. I want more, not less! There's nothing wrong with singing five or six verses of something.

quote:
Originally posted by the giant cheeseburger:

Take as an example Amazing Grace...
[...]

Then there is the 'extra' verse "when we've been there ten thousand years" of which the source is unknown, apart from being that it was not from the original author.

Unknown? I thought it was copied from a version of "Jerusalem my happy home"? (He says without checking...)

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
I only once remember singing the verse with the imagery of the Immaculate Conception: "Rise, the woman's conquering seed,
bruise in us the serpent's head".

Sorry, but I looked at the whole verse and cannot see any reference to Our Lady's immaculate conception. It is about Christ as conqueror as far as I can see.

I'd love to know more.

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

I didn't say it was about the Immaculate Conception. I said it used the imagery of the Immaculate Conception (the seed, the serpent, the bruised head).

Posted by mdijon (# 8520) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Trisagion:
The plebs sancta dei Novasilvensis, clearly recalling the protocol that the first verse is sung unaccompanied by a small boy in a clear treble voice simply sat there as a large fat deacon with a wavering baritone sang the whole verse. Then to add insult to injury promptly fell silent.

Thank you so much for painting the image so brilliantly. I am sure he for whom it was sung also saw the funny side.

By the way, for all the saints also goes on a fair bit. Time for the procession to pop home for a cup of tea and make it back in time for the last verse.

[ 31. December 2012, 21:24: Message edited by: mdijon ]

Posted by Olaf (# 11804) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mamacita:

quote:
Originally posted by Olaf:
... sometimes the organist decides on the fly and stops playing...
Just stops playing, as in, the congo sings the first couple of syllables and then stops, embarrassed, as they realize the musical bottom has dropped out from under them?...

Our organist always ends a hymn by slooooowwwiinnggg wwwwaaaaayyyyyy dddooooowwwwnnnn, a feat in itself because we sing slowly as it is. The slowdown is our cue that the end is in sight.

Posted by Quam Dilecta (# 12541) on :

I find that hymns with many verses come into their own when used during solemn processions. In the long nave of my parish church, two such hymns are just right to accompany a full "figure eight" circuit.

Posted by Carys (# 78) on :

We had an interesting moment at evensong, when the organist carried on it the fourth verse of Hark the Herald (it's in NEH Come desire of nations) and no-one was expecting it and just stopped. Oddly I didn't notice him doing it in the morning, though be then we had got back to behind the altar and so stopping for the vestry prayer made sense and he may have played that and I had not noticed. ALl the previous occurrences of it this season have beenwith service sheets so haven't printed that verse.

As a general rule I like all the verses and was sad to stop after 4 of Of the Father's Love in the morning. I also remember an occasion in a cathedral when they omitted verses from an offertory hymn and then ran out of hymn before they ran out of preparing! Equally bugged by Kevin Mayhew missing out one of the 7 verses of 'My song is Love unknown' making it a verse too short for our offertory.

Carys

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:

quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
I only once remember singing the verse with the imagery of the Immaculate Conception: "Rise, the woman's conquering seed,
bruise in us the serpent's head".
Sorry, but I looked at the whole verse and cannot see any reference to Our Lady's immaculate conception. It is about Christ as conqueror as far as I can see.

I'd love to know more.

I agree with Leo.

I'm open to be persuaded by hard evidence, but otherwise think it's very unlikely that Charles Wesley would have sneaked a reference to the Immaculate Conception into a hymn. I'm not even convinced that any C18 Protestant hymn writer would have been all that aware of or interested in it.

Posted by Anna B (# 1439) on :

As a (sometime) church accompanist and one who helps plan liturgy, I think the issue is one of consistency. It's all right to sing every verse if the congregation knows that's what is always to be done. It's all right to cut if the congregation is alert enough generally to be able to handle it. Not all congregations are.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
I didn't say it was about the Immaculate Conception. I said it used the imagery of the Immaculate Conception (the seed, the serpent, the bruised head).

How are these images anything to do with the immaculate conception?

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:

quote:
Originally posted by leo:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by venbede:
I only once remember singing the verse with the imagery of the Immaculate Conception: "Rise, the woman's conquering seed,
bruise in us the serpent's head".
Sorry, but I looked at the whole verse and cannot see any reference to Our Lady's immaculate conception. It is about Christ as conqueror as far as I can see.

I'd love to know more.

quote:
believe that He was made man, joining the human nature with the divine in one person; being conceived by the singular operation of the Holy Ghost, and born of the blessed Virgin Mary, who, as well after as before she brought Him forth, continued a pure and unspotted virgin. (

To a Roman Catholic, Dublin July 18, 1749

Posted by gog (# 15615) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
I'm open to be persuaded by hard evidence, but otherwise think it's very unlikely that Charles Wesley would have sneaked a reference to the Immaculate Conception into a hymn. I'm not even convinced that any C18 Protestant hymn writer would have been all that aware of or interested in it.

Not quite sneaked in, but would not verse three of Mr Wesley's "Hark, how all the welkin rings" show this:

quote:
"Christ, by highest Heaven adored,
Christ, the everlasting Lord:
late in time behold him come,
offspring of a Virgin’s womb!"

Posted by Morlader (# 16040) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:

By the way, for all the saints also goes on a fair bit. Time for the procession to pop home for a cup of tea and make it back in time for the last verse.

Yes. We usually sing verse 1 and then the even numbered verses. In NEH that is. If the celebrant/president remembers. (Has the advantage too of missing out the "soldiers" and "warfare" verses. Sorry, don't want to start a tangent on imagery).

On Immaculate Conception, isn't that the IC of Mary ?

[ 01. January 2013, 16:56: Message edited by: Morlader ]

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

O dear. I wasn’t seriously proposing Charles Wesley as forerunner of Vatican I, nor trying to make an aggressive polemic point over a controversial issue.

I was amused at the irony that Wesley’s popular carol made extensive use of the imagery from Genesis 3.15, which is now the first reading at RC mass for the Immaculate Conception. (I leave it to informed RCs to explain why.)

As leo must know, the standard iconography for the Virgin of the Immaculate Conception (as in Velasquez’ painting in the National Gallery) shows her trampling a serpent.

Posted by PaulBC (# 13712) on :

We use Common Praise issued ny the anglican Church of Canada . Now that was issued 15 years ago replacing the Canadian version of Hymns A & M . They made it politically correct.
I wrote the church's national paper saying " why make these changes especially when you have a parish like the 1 I serve, as server , which is rather senior in years." Well they'd never reverse the this shall be used "edict".
So we soldier on . I have to watch when I move
off to lead the choir or to do the Gospel
procession . On the recessional I lean on something I was told my a choirmaster " better to have the choir stand singing at the backl of the church for a verse or 3 than to recess in silence." B [Smile]

Posted by Barefoot Friar (# 13100) on :

Also, there's a bit of a split in thought over what the Immaculate Conception really is. Some say it is Mary's conception, while others claim it is Jesus' conception. As I understand it (and please correct me if I'm wrong), the former is generally the Catholic view, and the latter is generally the Protestant view. Anglicans being the middle way that they generally are, I would expect to find people of both persuasions throughout the communion.

Posted by HenryT (# 3722) on :

quote:
Originally posted by PaulBC:
We use Common Praise issued ny the anglican Church of Canada . Now that was issued 15 years ago replacing the Canadian version of Hymns A & M . They made it politically correct.

Beg to differ; the previous book was the 1970's Union Hymnal and had plenty of political correctness of its own. I don't have any details of when A&M was used in Canada, might have been the 1930 book.

Posted by bib (# 13074) on :

At my church the choir and organist often discuss the hymns at practice prior to the service when suggestions are made about omission of any verses, key transposition etc. This seems to work well for us, and at times we choose to sing all of a long hymn eg For all the saints.

Posted by Basilica (# 16965) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Barefoot Friar:
Also, there's a bit of a split in thought over what the Immaculate Conception really is. Some say it is Mary's conception, while others claim it is Jesus' conception. As I understand it (and please correct me if I'm wrong), the former is generally the Catholic view, and the latter is generally the Protestant view. Anglicans being the middle way that they generally are, I would expect to find people of both persuasions throughout the communion.

No denomination says that the Immaculate Conception refers to Jesus' conception: that is the doctrine of the Virgin Birth. Many denominations do not accept the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception (that Mary was conceived free from original sin) on various theological grounds.

Anglicans do indeed fudge the matter and celebrate the (non-immaculate) Conception of the BVM.

On the other hand, there is widespread confusion on the issue, and no small proportion of people (especially Protestants who spend less time thinking about Mary!) think that the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception refers to Jesus. But no church holds this as doctrine.

Posted by seasick (# 48) on :

Ahem.

This thread is about (not) singing every verse of every hymn. If you want to discuss the Immaculate Conception or the Virgin Birth then please do so on another thread. Discussion of the doctrine as such belongs in Purgatory; liturgical observances (including which hymns to sing) belong here in Ecclesiantics.

Much obliged.

seasick, Eccles host

Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :

We used to omit starred verses (or cut down very long hymns) but have since had a change of vicar - now it's more usual to sing the lot.

One time when extra verses are needed is during the Palm Sunday procession - when we get to the end of the hymn, we just start again at the beginning (until we reach the door of the church, at which point the hymn changes for the procession up the aisle).

What I can never understand is why many choruses are so short, which necessitates them being sung over and over and over and over and.... Surely someone with moderate song writing skills could add a few different verses?

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

Chorister

I think the whole point of choruses is that they're short and can be sung repetitively! This kind of thing is found in quite liturgical, high church settings as well as charismatic ones - consider the typical Taize chorus.

Posted by Lord Jestocost (# 12909) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gill H:
The worst to try and cut is 'While Shepherds Watched' as it doesn't make sense if you do. One reason not to sing it to the otherwise fun 'Ilkley Moor' as it goes on for ages.

Sing it to the tune of Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious, however, and it flies by.

I'm also with Chorister on the choruses. There must be a happy medium between the endless dirges of the OP and the endless recycled whoops of "Jesus is my boyfriend tra la la".

Posted by sebby (# 15147) on :

But withput wishing to digress, I'd rather sing 32 verses of ANY carol, than have to sit through more than three minutes of boring, draggy, around the houses intercessions .

At least the Prayer for the Church Militant (and I'm no great BCP fanatic) just got on with it, with the subliminal feeling that God knows anyway.

Posted by Quinquireme (# 17384) on :

I'm organist of an Anglo-Catholic parish church in London. If I choose to skip a verse or two, I just have to go up to the microphone and announce it or get a clergyperson to do so. We use hymn books (numbers displayed on boards), and the service sheets do not have the hymn texts.
Incidentally, if you object to certain verses, have a look at this blog, I like it very much:-

http://cathythinks.blogspot.co.uk/

Posted by american piskie (# 593) on :

I used to enjoy Fr Leslie Arnold's regime at SS Mary & John in Cowley where, if the offertory hymn (or whatever) was too long to cover the action then it was cut brutally short by a movement of the MC's hand; and if too short we went back to verse 1 and started all over again.

Posted by Vulpior (# 12744) on :

I like singing, even though I don't do so well, so I generally don't like it when an opportunity to do so is truncated.

In a former place the pew sheet specified, "We omit the starred verses from the hymns." Ancient & Modern Revised provides suitable stars; it doesn't, IIRC, cut out parts of a theological sequence when it does so, though I can't remember whether it has all seven (all essential) verses of "At the name of Jesus" to begin with.

Posted by Freddy (# 365) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Vulpior:
I like singing, even though I don't do so well, so I generally don't like it when an opportunity to do so is truncated.

As a member of the committee that produced my denomination's most recent hymnal this was especially the issue for the Christmas hymns.

People like them, so there is great resistance to truncating them.

For the rest of the year, other than the beloved Easter hymns, we easily snipped them all down to three verses with no objections.

We even added a verse back in to "Brightest and best of the sons of the morning" (the one about the "odors of Edom and offerings divine") due to popular request.

Posted by Arethosemyfeet (# 17047) on :

I rather like the Ancient & Modern custom of putting a goodly selection of "processional" versions of hymns with more verses than you can shake a stick at towards the end of the book, and putting asterisks in the main part to allow selection.

My opinion on trimming verses depends very much on whether I like the hymn in question. I'll gladly trim every single verse of ATBAB, for example.

Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on :

Oh, Trisagion! You've just given me the best laugh I've had in ages [Smile]

. I can only imagine what was going through your head when you realized - having begun - that you were committed to your treble solo!

Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
I rather like the Ancient & Modern custom of putting a goodly selection of "processional" versions of hymns with more verses than you can shake a stick at towards the end of the book, and putting asterisks in the main part to allow selection.

'We will now sing hymn number whatever, omitting the starred verses', is a much loved forumula in our church.

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
... I'll gladly trim every single verse of ATBAB, for example.

What's ATBAB code for please?

Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on :

I'm guessing it's All Things Bright and Beautiful. Sometimes known as 'All things B&B.'

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

Thank you.

Posted by HCH (# 14313) on :

As a practical matter, if I have to sing four or more hymns and every verse of each, I may find my voice deteriorating by the end. If you can offer me a break to get a drink of water, that would be nice.

It seems to me that this is related to the question of how long a service/mass should last. I believe there have been other threads on that question.

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

quote:
Originally posted by HCH:
As a practical matter, if I have to sing four or more hymns and every verse of each, I may find my voice deteriorating by the end. If you can offer me a break to get a drink of water, that would be nice.

Carry a bottle of water with you. Or in fact, just a bottle, and fill it up with water when you get to church. This is what I used to do when I was in a (very humble) church choir.

Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on :

quote:
Originally posted by HCH:
As a practical matter, if I have to sing four or more hymns and every verse of each, I may find my voice deteriorating by the end. If you can offer me a break to get a drink of water, that would be nice.

It seems to me that this is related to the question of how long a service/mass should last. I believe there have been other threads on that question.

Perhaps we were hardier in past years. I remember sung evensong and matins; four full hymns, sung responses, anthem, full complement of sung canticles and psalms. And not even the opportunity to get a polo-mint out of its packet. (Bottles of water in the choir-stalls? We'd've been massacred by the choir-mistress!)

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