Ship of Fools: God help me! I’m an INTP in an ESFJ Church

Thread: God help me! I’m an INTP in an ESFJ Church Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by The Midge (# 2398) on :

I’ve been looking at the MBTI typology in an attempt to explain to my church leadership why I feel a little bit of an uncomfortable fit in my church. [/understatement]

I think I first found MBTI on a ship board discussion many years ago and decided to investigate whether using the terminology would help to communicate with the polar opposite community culture. How INTP is that?!?

During my research found this web page page which types churches into various MBTI. I deduce that my local congregation would fit the description of an ESFJ church. I also attend a group of contemplatives which hold very creative gatherings once a month who seem to fit the description of an INFP congregation. This seems a much better fit though the touchy feely (or 'mushy' character as I have been told off for describing such things in the past) means it is not a perfect fit but is much more palatable in that form. I guess actual INTP congregation is unlikely to be found outside of a monastery.

Has anyone here compared their MBTI type with their church’s corporate type? Is this a helpful approach? Can it explain why some people like a church and others don’t? Can you see dangers?

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

Would you like to say more about your church's style of worship? I sympathise in principle but it's difficult without specifics.

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

And it would also assist ignorami like myself if you would kindly tell us what MBTI, ESFJ and all that actually means! [Confused]

Ian J.

Posted by The Midge (# 2398) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Would you like to say more about your church's style of worship? I sympathise in principle but it's difficult without specifics.

If you follow the link above you will find a more ballanced description of the above:

My observations:

E Pre service chat and after church fellowship time. (The most important time apparently)
E 'lets take some time to be quiet before the Lord' almost immediately followed by instructions on how to be quiet and or guitar solo intro to next praise song.
S Seeker sensitive services and sermons or rather talks.
S the hall-like venue.
F Me Myself and I hymondy and Jesus is my boy friend songs.
EF The handshake/ hug/ kiss in the peace.
SJ The same 6 songs nearly every week.
SJ mainstream evangelical theology.
J more concerned with orthodoxy than questioning or innovation and creativity.

These are my opinions and I'm sure the place would do favourably in the Mystery Worshipers section if the reviewers are into that kind of thing.

What would yours come out as?

Posted by The Midge (# 2398) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
And it would also assist ignorami like myself if you would kindly tell us what MBTI, ESFJ and all that actually means!

Ian J.

I'm sure you are no ignorami. Those who are familiar with this stuff will know the jargon This is all based on Jung.

Links:
Myyers-Briggs Type Indicator
of which there are 16 types including Introverted iNtuitive Thinking Perceiving type
is the polar opposite to Extraverted Senseing Feeling Judgeing types
There is a lot of stuff about using this to explore spirituality of types of which there is more information here.

I hope this makes sense!

Posted by Avila (# 15541) on :

Sounds interesting - will have a good poke around the links.

As long as remember that the types are suggestive decriptions and not boxes they have a lot to offer.

In a group people from all types may be present but it can definitely have a dominate 'feel'. Sometimes it can be the type of the strongest expressed personality, other times it can be more shared/merged from the group.

Posted by iamchristianhearmeroar (# 15483) on :

I'm fairly sure my church would come out as INFP, although having said that I think it's pretty difficult to assign a single type to what can be a very diverse group. I'm probably ENFP so it's a pretty good fit!

I also suspect that some of those wouldn't be very strong characteristics either.

Posted by Sergius-Melli (# 17462) on :

quote:
Originally posted by iamchristianhearmeroar:
I'm fairly sure my church would come out as INFP, although having said that I think it's pretty difficult to assign a single type to what can be a very diverse group. I'm probably ENFP so it's a pretty good fit!

I also suspect that some of those wouldn't be very strong characteristics either.

I'm having the difficulty of trying to assign the Church I'm in to a particular category. The congregation is too diverse to pin the overall culture and personality down into any of the categories presented. Whilst all very useful for trying to get congregations to think about where they are, what their purpose is and how they are best placed to exhibit their purpose, I think this might be more academic than practical in the situation I find myself in.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

I am going to look at the link when i have more time.

Meanwhile, i sympathise with the OP because, last time i did some work on it, I am an INTJ in an ESFP church.

It drives me mad but also challenges me.

I have no choice, since I'm 'staff'. But it is important to go to a different church, more suited to me, on my days off.

Posted by Hart (# 4991) on :

I think you should give thanks! I'm a fellow INTP (we're a rare breed). Lots of the things I like in a church service strike me as rather EF (I haven't had a chance to look over your link yet, I'm afraid) precisely because I think worship is there to take me out of myself.

Posted by The Silent Acolyte (# 1158) on :

quote:
Bishops Finger ventures too close to the edge:
And it would also assist ignorami like myself if you would kindly tell us...

Stay ignorant Bishops Finger. The parlor game called Myers-Briggs is all emotive bollocks, beloved of church consultants and diocesan commissions (a pox on their houses). It is one baby step up from Enneagrams.

[ 16. January 2013, 18:39: Message edited by: The Silent Acolyte ]

Posted by Jon in the Nati (# 15849) on :

quote:
The parlor game called Myers-Briggs is all emotive bollocks, beloved of church consultants and diocesan commissions (a pox on their houses).

And all God's people said 'Amen.'

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

Exactly. I think I'd say 'God help me! I'm a reasonable person in a church that takes Myers-Briggs seriously'.

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

Is this getting Purgatorial or Hellish? I'd just say, MBTI is to be taken seriously but not worshipped. It's helped me, and doubtless very many others, to realise the truth that God wants me to be who I am and not someone else.

Posted by Jon in the Nati (# 15849) on :

Hellish, I think. Still, a hell call based on Myers-Briggs types would be weaker than American tea, even by current Hell standards.

With regard to the OP, it rather sounds like the OP just doesn't like the church all that much. That is understandable; just about everything listed would turn me off too (with the exception of the "More concerned with orthodoxy than questioning" bit). It really is okay to not like the/a church, but there's no need to bring MBTI stuff into it.

Posted by roybart (# 17357) on :

Posted by Angloid:

quote:
I'd just say, MBTI is to be taken seriously but not worshipped. It's helped me, and doubtless very many others, to realise the truth that God wants me to be who I am and not someone else.

This makes great sense to me. I first came across Myers-Briggs in an introductory psychology class in the 1960s. Since then, according to the Wikipedia article linked by The Midge, there have been criticisms from the scientific community. Apparently only the Extroversion-Introversion dichotomy meets scientific standards for validity.

I have doubts about the usefulness of this scale when rating groups, unless those groups have fairly rigid admissions criteria and strictly administered rules. The usefulness comes, instead, in helping us understand how well we as individuals FIT INTO (or not) any given group.

I still have the same personal rating I had in my university days: INFP. This explains why, out of the broad range of worship, people, and service opportunities offered by my liberal Episcopal congregation, I am most moved by Taize worship with Eucharist, happiest talking one on one with other group members, and why my only serious complaint about the liturgy is that it is far to wordy, allowing almost no time or space for silence and mediation.

[ 16. January 2013, 20:37: Message edited by: roybart ]

Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :

The Midge

If you are interested in this sort of thing then it might be an idea to get hold of "Faith and Psychology" by Leslie J Francis which is the drawing together of quite a lot of the research on the subject.

You also need to be aware that mbti is not a simple additive system but a complex pattern of behaviour strategies. People may well be worshipping in a style that can be wrong for their personality. If the studies are to be believed an awful lot of E style churches are made up of clerics and congregants who are predominantly I.

Jengie

Posted by seasick (# 48) on :

There has been a bit of sniping on this thread which is unhelpful, I think. In my view, the OP is clearly capable of reasonable discussion. By all means critique MBTI and its use in the church, but please do so in a reasoned fashion.

seasick, Eccles host

[ 16. January 2013, 21:54: Message edited by: seasick ]

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

This may not help much, but I see my primary membership as of my denomination. It is right to be committed to one congregation, but they aren't the Church.

I don't think you can really apply MBTI types to corporate bodies.

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

quote:
Originally posted by seasick:
There has been a bit of sniping on this thread which is unhelpful, I think. In my view, the OP is clearly capable of reasonable discussion. By all means critique MBTI and its use in the church, but please do so in a reasoned fashion.

seasick, Eccles host

Firy nuff. I've done MBTI once and it didn't tell me anything that, by that stage in my life, I didn't already know about myself. My problem is with the tendency, which does exist in places, to treat it as some sort of modern version of reading the entrails of the sacred chickens.

Posted by Custard (# 5402) on :

I'm also an INTP and a vicar who does see some value in using Myers-Briggs for talking about churches. For what it's worth, I'd say the church I did my curacy in was INFJ, and the one I'm in at the moment is ISTJ. Churches often tend to take on the characteristics of their leaders over time.

Conservative(ish) evangelicalism / thoughful Calvinism is often INTJ or sometimes INTP.

Part of maturity is learning to cope well with other people's preferences for the sake of something more important.

[ 17. January 2013, 09:21: Message edited by: Custard ]

Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :

I suspect that Jung, on whose work the Myers-Briggs stuff is based, regularly turns in his grave at the thought of how his work has been first extrapolated, then mass-marketed, and finally almost universally misinterpreted.

I'm still a bit of an old-fashioned (and unfashionable) Jungian. So I'd ask, are you a middle-aged person who find yourself in a church dominated by all the personality traits that are opposite to your own? If so, then welcome to your ideal church! According to Jung, the spiritual/existential task of the second half of your life is to reconcile yourself to all of those opposites. They're part of you anyway: they constitute your Shadow, and you've repressed them, and the second half of your life is when you need to reintegrate them in your personality so that, with luck and grace, you eventually become a Wise Old Person.

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

Thanks for that tip, Adeodatus. I'm a high P and find myself driven potty by a church which is off-the-scale P. I'm yearning for a bit of J structure.

Posted by The Midge (# 2398) on :

Wow, where to start. Decisions, decisions. Yuck!
It is a bit late for a parlour game of ‘guess each other type by their posts’ though; to guide this thread back towards more heavenly realms in compensation.

First my hope was to see how effective a tool MBTI could be to discuss my own personal issues. I think we can safely say confusion about what MBTI (including the difference between the terms extraverted and extroverted) and the fact some sceptical about the approach are two potential pitfalls. The third could be being governed by the typing rather than informed by it. So thanks for these.

I think that recognising group tendencies is helpful and that diversity also needs to be valued. I like the idea of a ‘mixed economy’ of church, either on days off or, better yet, variety of styles provided through one body in order to recognise other’s needs and preferences but also to recognise a diversity of gifting that we all bring and how these might contribute. Life would be dull if we were all the same. What if there were no odd balls and counter types to balance excesses or weaknesses of others? Rare types and personalities could become prophets calling the church back towards balance and God.

I find the idea that leadership will shape the group to their own style interesting. I know my own leadership have been the subject of “church consultants and diocesan commissions” (peace be upon them) and that our leader would classify them self as and INFP. It is as though the structured Sensing-Thinking-Judging types surrounded them with a scaffold to provide support when there was a crisis and this gradually solidified into a wall of control with added buttresses of procedures over time.

Now is there any mileage in saying “we are really being introverted in the way we do things here, how can we add something that will really engage the extraverts?”

Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :

Have you heard of the shadow function. It is almost the exact opposite of the usual mbti but comes out in times of stress.

No leaders can't solely shape the way churches go, after all you can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink! However congregations play a long game when compared with the cleric, the can afford to, if clerics have a decade then you are fortunate, congregants can have over forty years and sometimes through family lines centuries. They just wait for the next interregnum and then go about setting thing to rights. The concentration on leadership is I suspect due to the fact that it is largely written by leaders.

Jengie

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

From experience, Myers-Briggs, like Belben and all the others, is a useful tool as long as AND ONLY AS LONG AS you don't take it too seriously, and you don't use it to feel superior to those who are not like you.

Applying it to abstract entities like congregations, though, seems to me way beyond its scope. Having looked at the site which there's the links to which does this, I wouldn't recommend it to anyone. It strikes me as both dogmatic and driven by theory rather than observation.

Posted by DitzySpike (# 1540) on :

I'm not sure if I'll assign a personality trait to a community of people. Perhaps the liturgical spaces and social habits make visible one particular group of people, but I'm sure there are also other personalities adapting to that culture in their own ways.

Further, personality typing only gives a general sense of preferences and behaviors. That need not transfer into specific situations. One might be an introvert who appreciates going to a noisy church with a specific group of friends.

From an Enneagram perspective (Sorry Silent Acolyte!), one needs to venture out of the comfort of their own preferences as part of their own spiritual growth.

Posted by Circuit Rider (# 13088) on :

Interesting thread! I have been studying MBTI types for a few years, and it has helped me understand things about myself and others.

I have never thought of applying a personality type to a congregation, even though I am aware that certain groups of people take on a "personality." In that regard I have thought more in terms of family systems.

I am INTJ and find it extremely difficult to pastor. It seems in our American culture people want their pastor to be very extraverted and able to capable of carrying relationships and conversations on their own strength. Our passive, consumerist approach to just about everything makes want a leader who amuses and entertains us through worship, ministry, and everything else. It must be fun and effortless, and when there is effort that too must be fun.

I think I am picking up that in the UK there are more introverted values and that an introverted thoughtful pastor might be more appreciated. Would that be true? If so, where might I sign up?

If I were to apply MBTI to my congregation I would have to ditch the descriptions on the website linked in the OP, because they are all too charitable. I'll have to give it some thought. Alone, in my office, with information I already have ... [Biased]

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Circuit Rider:
I am INTJ

Snap.

Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
I'm still a bit of an old-fashioned (and unfashionable) Jungian. So I'd ask, are you a middle-aged person who find yourself in a church dominated by all the personality traits that are opposite to your own? If so, then welcome to your ideal church! According to Jung, the spiritual/existential task of the second half of your life is to reconcile yourself to all of those opposites. They're part of you anyway: they constitute your Shadow, and you've repressed them, and the second half of your life is when you need to reintegrate them in your personality so that, with luck and grace, you eventually become a Wise Old Person.

I think all that's going to happen in my (INTJ) case is that I'll become an Obnoxious Old Person.

Posted by Organ Builder (# 12478) on :

quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
I think all that's going to happen in my (INTJ) case is that I'll become an Obnoxious Old Person.

I think I already have...

Posted by seasick (# 48) on :

I think there are a fair few introvert clergy in the UK. I'm also INTJ and some of my close colleagues are too!

Posted by Circuit Rider (# 13088) on :

quote:
Originally posted by seasick:
I think there are a fair few introvert clergy in the UK. I'm also INTJ and some of my close colleagues are too!

Got room for one more?

Posted by seasick (# 48) on :

I'm sure we could find room... but it wouldn't be my call!

Posted by The Midge (# 2398) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
<SNIP> So I'd ask, are you a middle-aged person who find yourself in a church dominated by all the personality traits that are opposite to your own? If so, then welcome to your ideal church! According to Jung, the spiritual/existential task of the second half of your life is to reconcile yourself to all of those opposites. They're part of you anyway: they constitute your Shadow, and you've repressed them, and the second half of your life is when you need to reintegrate them in your personality so that, with luck and grace, you eventually become a Wise Old Person.

I'd rather not develop my J side as I'm quiet bad enough curmudgeon without becoming judgemental with as it is (no offence to all the lovely INTJs posting above! Judging does not equate to being judgemental. My SO would prefer more decisiveness).

I would seek depth of relationship rather than become a party animal (a party should start in the library as far as I am concerned and I am shocked by how few houses have libraries. I suspect most of my type settle for the kitchen because they can find a few recipe books there if nothing else). I think that developing the weaker side does not entail becoming something that one is not but by starting with what gifts one has-or expanding the comfort zone.

It is a case of finding a point of contact from which to grow.

Posted by Abigail (# 1672) on :

quote:
Originally posted by The Midge:
During my research found this web page page which types churches into various MBTI.

This is really interesting. I'm ISTJ and really don't feel I'm a good fit in my church... this could help to explain a lot.

Posted by Latchkey Kid (# 12444) on :

I am an XNTJ. Part of the time I am ENTJ and part INTJ. Stress also make you flip to different characteristics.

I am not sure that you could characterise a congregation, which should be a mix of types, as a single type.

For a congregation a Belbin team analysis, or the Margerison-McCann would be more useful. They were a useful aid in understanding the needs and dynamics of a project team and how it could better meet its objectives when I was in systems development.

Posted by PD (# 12436) on :

My own tendancies are ISTJ so my relationship with a lot modernized churches is a bit arms length as they tend to be aimed at attracting people who are more in the EN?? categories. By the time I have been mauled by a couple of rampant extroverts and had my intelligence insulted by the sermon I am usually ready for home long before communion.

This has had some interesting consequences leading me to be one of the rare non Anglo-Catholics in Anglo-Catholic parishes just because I can survive the 'church' experience. If I can find a church which is straight BCP, Low-MOTR, and fairly conservative I will go, but they are becoming rare.

The parish I currently pastor is a bit higher than I am, but it has, by negotiation come down a little, and I have gone up a bit to meet them, so we have quite happily met in the middle. That said, the dynamic is changing a bit, as I tend to attract High Church Evangelicals, rather than other churchmanships.

PD

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

I have finally finished reading and thinking about all the 18 types.

I don't find the descriptions very suitable to describe the sort of congregations that I know.

However, my hunch was confirmed. My last church was exactly suited to my own style - but it's a pity that became Forward in Faith and i felt i had to leave.

My present church is the least suited to my preferences.

Posted by Latchkey Kid (# 12444) on :

16 types, Leo

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

We Intutitives can't be doing with all this boring and irrelevant Sensate business. The Amazonian tribe whose language included only four words for numbers, one, two, three, many, had the right idea. 18, 16, what does it matter?

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

Isn't that a P response more than a N one? (But I never really got the hang of what they all mean). That's my sort of maths though.

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

I'm a J!

The Jung bits (I/E, S/N, F/T)make a lot of sense, but the bits Mrs M and Mrs B added (P/J) are where it begins to get a bit questionable (does your S/N or your F/T predominate?), and by the time you've ended up with all those 16 possibilities and their shadows, the whole thing is so schematic as to mean almost anything you want.

Incidentally, I'm N and my other half is an accountant and an S. As he says, he does numbers and I do stories.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Latchkey Kid:
16 types, Leo

Yes - I looked at all of them and ranked them in 1st, 2nd and 3rd place according to:

a) my 'taste'

b) my present church

c) my former church.

Further reflection: there is nothing about theology or politics (my former church suits me but they are mainly tories whereas my discipleship leads me to be socialist) in the descriptions and it seems rather American.

Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :

But if Venbede is an introvert, then he will introvert his J (thinking or feeling) so he will extrovert his P (sensing or intuition). So a P style response may be totally in keeping with his character style. At least that is my present understanding.

Jengie

[ 23. January 2013, 20:26: Message edited by: Jengie Jon ]

Posted by Latchkey Kid (# 12444) on :

quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
We Intutitives can't be doing with all this boring and irrelevant Sensate business. The Amazonian tribe whose language included only four words for numbers, one, two, three, many, had the right idea. 18, 16, what does it matter?

You tell me. Why would anyone bother to post a whole paragraph about it?

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
But if Venbede is an introvert, then he will introvert his J (thinking or feeling) so he will extrovert his P (sensing or intuition). So a P style response may be totally in keeping with his character style. At least that is my present understanding.

Jengie

That sounds about right; jengie, from what I remember of the theory.

But I'm in the Second Half of Life, jengie, so my shadow side is now prominent. So where on earth does that leave me?

This is the point where I have my severe doubts. If MBPI tells me I'm X, and then I have Y tendencies, they come up with a theoretical reason for me to behave Y when they say I'm
X. All sound far too schematic.

[ 24. January 2013, 15:40: Message edited by: venbede ]

Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on :

As my esteemed co-host said in his previous comment on this thread, we are happy with discussion of Myers-Briggs-type personality tests with respect to worship.

We now seem to be in a general analysis of the theories themselves, some of them made in a fairly personal way. I am not sure that this thread is really going in an Eccles-direction so I'm going to give it until tomorrow (GMT) to see if anyone has any further comments on worship/liturgy styles... if not, we may move it to more fertile fields.

Let's see how it goes...

dj_ordinaire, Eccles host

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

I did one of those online tests once, and came out as IN-something or other.

Several studies state that introverts are more numerous in British churches than in society at large. I can see that when churches try to make themselves more extrovert-friendly (i.e., simply more attractive to 'ordinary people') they immediately have a problem, because such changes go against the grain for the kind of people who already attend. Congregations have to be deeply committed to the vision of the church leaders and to evangelism in order to make much headway. Regular attenders need to accept that in order for the church to grow, they might have to set their personal inclinations to one side. This is very hard to do.

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
I did one of those online tests once, and came out as IN-something or other.

Several studies state that introverts are more numerous in British churches than in society at large. I can see that when churches try to make themselves more extrovert-friendly (i.e., simply more attractive to 'ordinary people') they immediately have a problem, because such changes go against the grain for the kind of people who already attend. Congregations have to be deeply committed to the vision of the church leaders and to evangelism in order to make much headway. Regular attenders need to accept that in order for the church to grow, they might have to set their personal inclinations to one side. This is very hard to do.

I think that's the argument, that churches are tending to pitch themselves at people who are like existing members, and so offer a form of worship that sorts of people who are different can't relate to or just find uninspiring and boring.

If you put off your core though, will you actually win over a new clientele, or just end up with no one?

A possible approach might be, 'as this is worship, should the proper question be, does this either appeal to God or enable more people to worship him than are doing at the moment?'

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

That does sound awfully like an appeal to market sources.

Liturgy is for our benefit, not for God's. However it is not for one clique. An impersonal liturgy in theory allows all people of any type to worship together.

Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :

quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
That does sound awfully like an appeal to market sources.

Liturgy is for our benefit, not for God's. However it is not for one clique. An impersonal liturgy in theory allows all people of any type to worship together.

I'd say liturgy is primarily for praise of God (who, true, has no need of our praise, but it's one of our main reasons for being) and secondarily for edification of us.

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