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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Fishing "suscipe" out of the Spatzenmesse
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
So, there I was comfortably settled on my prayer bench during the sermon at the annual mass for one of the weirder Anglo-catholic devotional societies—one wag whispered to me that we all seemed refugees from the Isle of the Misfit Toys—my mind drifting away as I considered, How much is too much?
How much is too much? Here is one extended example.
One of the quaint marks of a proper Anglo-catholic solemn high mass is some precisely located bowing during the Gloria.
If I remember rightly, the points would be "we worship thee," "Lord Jesus Christ," "receive our prayer," and "O Jesus Christ." Four points. So far, so good. In English. Not terribly fussy. Or, so it seems to me.
But this day, the text of the Gloria, as is not infrequently the case, was in Latin. So, the points become "Adoramus te," "Jesu Christe," "suscipe deprecationem nostram," and "Jesu Christe." This ratchets the game up a notch. Jesu Christe is still a gimme, I suppose, and Adoramus te is easy and early, but then we are stuck with that thing from the title of this thread.
So let's dial things up another notch.
On this day the mass setting was Mozart's Spatzenmesse, not a terribly hard setting in which to follow the words, but musically there's a lot going on, so a sacred minister could be forgiven for being caught cat-napping, wondering how many "miserere nobises" there are in this setting, when the trebles ambush him by sweetly singing out "suscipe."
Is it reasonable—during a prayer, fer cryin' out loud—for the sacred ministers and the entire sanctuary party to be metaphorically sitting on the edge of their seats waiting for the special words so they can bow in unison?!
And, this is not the least of things. There is a blizzard of these quaint marks of party identification flung throughout an Anglo-catholic solemn high mass.
Granted, over the years much has been pitched over the side. In few places does the subdeacon still wear a humeral veil lurking about behind the action with the paten. Many places no longer struggle to keep the frog on the paten. The Biretta Dance and the concomitant hat- and hand-kissing are pretty much a thing of the past.
But, still there is a lot of careful effort that goes into maintaining the accumulation of detail which together expresses the powerful, prayerful sense that this action of the church matters.
Why do we do all this stuff? Is it really important? Is it still too much? Should we trim away even more like the Roman Catholics?
Or, am I just getting old and grumpy?
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Devils Advocate
Shipmate
# 16484
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Posted
Interesting point! I always bow at the 4 points you mention when the Gloria is sung (as it usually is in our shack) Cantata. The instructions if I remember correctly, for when the Mass is sung to a setting by choir only is for the sacred ministers et al, to perform the reverences when they SAY the Gloria ( and the same at the points of reverence usual in the Creed) and if the setting is a long one to return to the Sedilia and remain seated and ignore the choirs Adoramus Te etc The rule would therefore seem to be if you say ( or sing it) then reverence it.
As far as biretta's are concerned, since the last vicar retired weve managed to avoid using them, and the humeral veil comes out only for Benediction ( and I've managed to mislay the wimpa's :-))
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"Oh I have wrought much evil with my spells"
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
What Devil's Advocate said. Also, there is an inclinatio at "We give thanks to Thee"--at least, so says my edition of the American Missal.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
Try doing it to Hadyn's mini mass that runs faster than an express train through a rural stop.
Here is a bag of cats murdering it - but you get the idea.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
Here is a bag of cats murdering it - but you get the idea.
Incongruous venue for it!
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
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sonata3
Shipmate
# 13653
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
Try doing it to Hadyn's mini mass that runs faster than an express train through a rural stop.
Here is a bag of cats murdering it - but you get the idea.
There are a number of Mass settings in the 2nd half of the 18th century where each of the four voice parts sings (simultaneously) only a part of the text of the Gloria and Credo. Makes one wonder what ceremonial was adopted in those services where these Masses were performed.
[ 27. January 2013, 12:49: Message edited by: sonata3 ]
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"I prefer neurotic people; I like to hear rumblings beneath the surface." Stephen Sondheim
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
Why do we do all this stuff? Is it really important? Is it still too much? Should we trim away even more like the Roman Catholics?
Or, am I just getting old and grumpy?
When you do 'all this stuff' what is going on in your heart?
- Do you feel your spirit within you falling down before God in humble adoration, in a way that no other form of worship can enable? or
- Does it make you feel proud that you and those like you have something special that other inferior Christians do not understand? or
- Are you continually anxious that you'll get it wrong and either God in His infinite mercy will squash you flat, or Father, Brother or Sister over there will glare at you visibly or silently within his or her heart? or
- Am you hoping that Father, Brother or Sister over there will bow in the wrong place and you can glare at them visibly or silently within your heart?
Or do you not recognise any of these thoughts? At any rate, unless it is the first that you wholly identify with, I'd say go with the old and grumpy feeling. It's saying something important.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Oblatus
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# 6278
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Posted
I often look around stealthily during a Solemn Te Deum to see whether there's even a hint of a bow (let alone a full kneel or a genuflexion) during "We therefore pray thee help thy servants, whom thou hast redeemed with thy precious blood." That one seems as consistently prescribed in the usual manuals as any of the others, but I've never experienced that in any place where it might be expected. As I'm not usually interested in being paid attention to, I refrain as well, but I still wonder.
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Carys
Ship's Celticist
# 78
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Posted
My reason for bowing in the Gloria is reverence and I'm more likely to do it when the Gloria is non-congregational because it is something that helps me concentrate on the words rather than finding my mind has wondered off somewhere else as it is wont to do.
Not heard the Gloria mentioned because I've tended to be at places where the Gloria is congregational with a mass setting for the Sanctus Benedictus Agnus Dei
Carys
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O Lord, you have searched me and know me
You know when I sit and when I rise
Posts: 6896 | From: Bryste mwy na thebyg | Registered: May 2001
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american piskie
Shipmate
# 593
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sonata3:
quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
Try doing it to Hadyn's mini mass that runs faster than an express train through a rural stop.
Here is a bag of cats murdering it - but you get the idea.
There are a number of Mass settings in the 2nd half of the 18th century where each of the four voice parts sings (simultaneously) only a part of the text of the Gloria and Credo. Makes one wonder what ceremonial was adopted in those services where these Masses were performed.
I think we may assume that the views of Paride de' Grassi, who was papal Master of Ceremonies from 1504 to 1521 were still respected:
De symphonizantum choro nihil ad nostras ceremonias pertinet, qualiter ipsi stare, aut sedere, vel aliquid facere, quod eis libeat, aut liceat.
(`As for the choir of polyphonic singers, nothing affects our ceremonies---how they stand, or sit, or do anything they please or are permitted.')
Posts: 356 | From: Oxford, England, UK | Registered: Jun 2001
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Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
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Posted
Do n't forget that in the Tridentine form of the Roman rite the priest said everything,but everything.At a Sung Mass the priest would intone the words 'Gloria in excelsis Deo' and continue with the rest of the words spoken. Meanwhile the choir would continue the sung version of the Gloria starting at 'et in terra pax'.The bows at certain points would be made by the priest during his recitation of the Gloria and might well be ignored when he went to sit on the sedilia after the recitation.
There was no difficulty with the concertina Masses of Mozart and Haydn as at that time in Central europe a sung Mass would take the form of a Tridentine Low Mass with musical accompaniment which would be sung roughly at the time that the words would be spoken.If you listen to some Mozart or Haydn Masses they are often loud at the beginning of the Kyrie which would accompany the entrance of the priest and similarly 'dona nobis pacem' which would accompany the end of the Mass and the exit of the priest .Again don't forget that there would be no distribution of Communion which would hold things up.Didn't Mozart's archbishop of Salzburg insist that a Mass should not last longer than 45 minutes.
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georgiaboy
Shipmate
# 11294
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Posted
If my memory is reliable (it may well not be!), the Haydn Gloria referenced above was written for performance by/for the Barmherzigebrüder (Brothers of Mercy, don't you love the German name?) for their feast day, which was in wintertime. There was of course no central heating in the Bergkirche, so I am sure everyone was happy to have it over as quickly as possible.
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You can't retire from a calling.
Posts: 1675 | From: saint meinrad, IN | Registered: Apr 2006
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
Mini Gloria, but the Sanctus and Benedictus and the Agnus Dei goes on for ever! (but it is nice)
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
Is it reasonable—during a prayer, fer cryin' out loud—for the sacred ministers and the entire sanctuary party to be metaphorically sitting on the edge of their seats waiting for the special words so they can bow in unison?!
To be paying attention during somebody else's "lines" is admirable. To show off that you're paying attention by timing the head-twitch to the nearest millisecond isn't.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
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Laurence
Shipmate
# 9135
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
Mini Gloria, but the Sanctus and Benedictus and the Agnus Dei goes on for ever! (but it is nice)
I presume we're talking Haydn's Little Organ Mass. If you do it in an old rite Mass, it fits over the canon perfectly. No waiting necessary- everything is perfectly judged, with the elevations coming at just the right point for the gap between Sanctus and Benedictus. Haydn knew what he was doing!
Mind you, if you do it with Common Worship, or even the Novus Ordo, everyone sits around twiddling their thumbs for nearly ten minutes during the Benedictus...
Posts: 648 | From: Lincolnshire | Registered: Feb 2005
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