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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Icons
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Earwig
Pincered Beastie
# 12057
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Posted
I wonder if some knowlegable people can help me. I'm planning to embroider some Icons - partly to learn more about Icons, partly as personal devotion, to explore new embroidery techniques, and to see how embroidery (particularly techniques like or nue) could be ways of interpreting Icons.
I'd love to also use this project as a way of exploring more subversive or humorous Saints, like St Simeon the Holy Fool. Not in a mickey-taking way, but in a genuine attempt to explore different dimensions of faith than the obviously pious or holy. I'd hope they'd make me (and maybe others) look at how you can follow God in many different ways.
However, I'm from a Protestant tradition. I don't want what I do to be offensive to Russian or Greek Orthdox Christians. Would any of the above be offensive to people?
And could anyone recommend any books for further exploring Icons and Iconography? Thanks!
Posts: 3120 | From: Yorkshire | Registered: Nov 2006
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
Erm,....could be slightly offensive. Try reading 'Searching For Icons in Russia' by Soloukhin - a hard book to get now, but it gives you an insight into iconography that few other books do. Ouspensky's double volume on icons is also good.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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Thyme
Shipmate
# 12360
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Posted
Earwig, this sounds fascinating. I am just starting to embroider and have been thinking about doing something devotional ever since I saw a lovely celtic cross embroidery at a friend's house. I'm talking embroidery by the way not cross stitch or needlepoint.
I don't see any reason why icons shouldn't be interpreted in embroidery. It's well in line with the tradition of embroidered vestments and furnishings.
Here is the Needle'n Thread website. Mary Corbett has a keen interest in ecclesiastical embroidery and a host of resources on the site. I have some vague memory that she has written about icons and embroidery.
Regarding icons and causing offence. I think (but open to correction) that in the Orthodox churches for an icon to be a true Icon it has to be painted ('written') in specific ways by trained and authorised people. Lots of people do icon painting classes for their own enjoyment but I don't think that the Orthodox would recognise them as Icons in their meaning of the word and form.
But the Orthodox don't have a copyright on the word icon or the traditional images afaik.
The whole causing offence thing is a very fine line to walk. One persons humorous idea might be another's blasphemous work of the devil. See various threads in Hell for current examples ![[Two face]](graemlins/scot_twoface.gif)
I would be really interested if you started a thread somewhere on devotional embroidery.
[ 27. January 2013, 11:39: Message edited by: Thyme ]
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The Church in its own bubble has become, at best the guardian of the value system of the nation’s grandparents, and at worst a den of religious anoraks defined by defensiveness, esoteric logic and discrimination. Bishop of Buckingham's blog
Posts: 600 | From: Cloud Cuckoo Land | Registered: Feb 2007
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
I don't have any expertise on icons apart from a growing interest in them (helped by my priest who collects them), but I've seen many vestments on Anglican vestment-makers' websites featuring icons. Your idea sounds wonderful.
As for subversive and humorous saints, what about St Lawrence of Rome? Not funny in himself as such but him being the patron saint of chefs is ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
I hope you'll forgive me, as I am not intending to be insulting or dismissive, but in the understanding of the Orthodox Church, not all artwork done in a traditional iconographic style is an icon. To qualify the work must be accompanied by the proper prayers and other conditions. Works whose creation does not meet the conditions can be iconified by subsequent prayer and priestly blessing, however. But it can look and quack like an icon and still not be an icon.
If you're interested in learning the prayers and the methods (for instance you lay down the colors in an icon in decreasing order of darkness: black first, up through scales of darkness/lightness, with white and gold last), by all means check out a book on the subject. I don't have any titles off the top of my head because I have no talent in that department.
For my own personal opinion and based on talking with Orthy friends, I would say that making something in a mockery of an icon (a picture in an icony style, but that has the subject sticking out his or her tongue, for instance) would be offensive to many Orthodoxen. But when my acquaintances see an "icon" of, say, Che Guevarra, the reaction is more of the "oh brother" than the "that's deeply offensive" variety.
In short, go for it. I'd love to see what you come up with. I've long thought there aren't enough embroidery-based icons; it's a beautiful art form that is under-represented in devotional art. Our church has a beaded icon; there are icon fridge magnets, for goodness' sake (we have a few ourselves). Embroidered iconography's day is overdue.
As for humorous saints, I'd love to hear what you turn up. I think (as you may have discerned from my arguing over on the humor-and-religion thread, let alone my decade-old Ortho satire website) that there is definitely a place for holy humor, and many of the saints give indication of having a sense of humor. One of our 19th century saints, Innocent of Alaska, definitely had a playful side, from the stories that have come down.
HTH.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
The comment on icons not being embroidered led to me searching for embroidery and icons on line and my first link was to this book, which may have been where Thyme intended to link to.
Here is interesting article on the British Association of Iconographers. It appears that embroidered icons take even longer than painted ones and so I would start small.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Thyme
Shipmate
# 12360
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Posted
Thanks Jengie Jon ![[Yipee]](graemlins/spin.gif)
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The Church in its own bubble has become, at best the guardian of the value system of the nation’s grandparents, and at worst a den of religious anoraks defined by defensiveness, esoteric logic and discrimination. Bishop of Buckingham's blog
Posts: 600 | From: Cloud Cuckoo Land | Registered: Feb 2007
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Cool stuff, Jengie Jon!
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Thyme
Shipmate
# 12360
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Posted
Thanks cq, fascinating.
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The Church in its own bubble has become, at best the guardian of the value system of the nation’s grandparents, and at worst a den of religious anoraks defined by defensiveness, esoteric logic and discrimination. Bishop of Buckingham's blog
Posts: 600 | From: Cloud Cuckoo Land | Registered: Feb 2007
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Spiffy
Ship's WonderSheep
# 5267
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Posted
The page for the Needle 'N Thread is here and here is ecclesiastical embroidery category.
There is a page she has about a free book on icon embroidery.
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Posts: 10281 | From: Beervana | Registered: Dec 2003
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Earwig
Pincered Beastie
# 12057
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
I hope you'll forgive me, as I am not intending to be insulting or dismissive, but in the understanding of the Orthodox Church, not all artwork done in a traditional iconographic style is an icon. To qualify the work must be accompanied by the proper prayers and other conditions. Works whose creation does not meet the conditions can be iconified by subsequent prayer and priestly blessing, however. But it can look and quack like an icon and still not be an icon.
Thanks mousethief, that is not insulting or dismissive, but is exactly the sort of insight and wisdom I was hoping someone might share. I think I understand - it would be like baking bread or making wine - they might be very fine, but would still not be the body and blood of our Lord.
If I get your gist (and that of others) right - I should go for it, create embroidered art that takes inspiration from icons, but understand and make clear to others that they aren't icons.
What's prompted all this is applying for a little scholarship from the Embroiders' Guild in the UK. If I got the grant, that's what I'd like to do with it. If I don't, I'll still work on this, it might just take longer....
And thank you all for the links and tips - I'll have a proper look when I've more time.
Thanks all!
Posts: 3120 | From: Yorkshire | Registered: Nov 2006
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otyetsfoma
Shipmate
# 12898
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Posted
Mousethief's restrictions on what can be a REAL icon suggest that the mounted icon prints sold at candle desks then sent up by their buyers to the altar to be blessed are really frauds? I don't believe he means that!
Posts: 842 | From: Edgware UK | Registered: Aug 2007
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by otyetsfoma:
Mousethief's restrictions on what can be a REAL icon suggest that the mounted icon prints sold at candle desks then sent up by their buyers to the altar to be blessed are really frauds? I don't believe he means that!
Perhaps you were reading too quickly and missed the part where I said:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Works whose creation does not meet the conditions can be iconified by subsequent prayer and priestly blessing, however.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Quinquireme
Shipmate
# 17384
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Posted
You might be interested in a short illustrated book by Rowan Williams called "Ponder these things". I really enjoyed it.
Posts: 56 | From: SE London | Registered: Oct 2012
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Manipled Mutineer
Shipmate
# 11514
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Posted
I'm not Orthodox but I am very interested in icons. It seems to me, though, that Mousethief has it right and that provided that the subject and treatment is respectful there should be no problem at all. Indeed I think that it is an excellent idea. I have a book by Peter Pearson, an iconographer, which you might wish to look up. It is called "A Brush with God" and discusses the spiritual practice of iconography, tools, processes and techniques as well as walking the reader through the creation of three sample icons. I am no artist, but apparently it is accessible to those from the Western tradition. Perhaps it might be helpful?
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Collecting Catholic and Anglo-
Catholic books
Posts: 1533 | From: Glamorgan, UK | Registered: Jun 2006
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Earwig
Pincered Beastie
# 12057
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Posted
Thanks Quinquereme and MM! I shall check those out.
Sadly, illness meant I couldn't get my application for the scholarship in, so no free money for embroidery. ![[Waterworks]](graemlins/bawling.gif)
But I'll still work on this idea, albeit more slowly. I have to decide which saint to do first!
Posts: 3120 | From: Yorkshire | Registered: Nov 2006
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gog
Shipmate
# 15615
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Posted
Dear Earwig and others,
A source of icon patterns and ideas (yes for drawn but may also fit your bill) that I've found useful is the following:
http://www.betsyporter.com/index.html
Posts: 103 | From: somewhere over the border | Registered: Apr 2010
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