Thread: Icons Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.


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Posted by Earwig (# 12057) on :
 
I wonder if some knowlegable people can help me. I'm planning to embroider some Icons - partly to learn more about Icons, partly as personal devotion, to explore new embroidery techniques, and to see how embroidery (particularly techniques like or nue) could be ways of interpreting Icons.

I'd love to also use this project as a way of exploring more subversive or humorous Saints, like St Simeon the Holy Fool. Not in a mickey-taking way, but in a genuine attempt to explore different dimensions of faith than the obviously pious or holy. I'd hope they'd make me (and maybe others) look at how you can follow God in many different ways.

However, I'm from a Protestant tradition. I don't want what I do to be offensive to Russian or Greek Orthdox Christians. Would any of the above be offensive to people?

And could anyone recommend any books for further exploring Icons and Iconography? Thanks!
 

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Posted by fletcher christian (# 13919) on :
 
Erm,....could be slightly offensive. Try reading 'Searching For Icons in Russia' by Soloukhin - a hard book to get now, but it gives you an insight into iconography that few other books do. Ouspensky's double volume on icons is also good.
 

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Posted by Thyme (# 12360) on :
 
Earwig, this sounds fascinating. I am just starting to embroider and have been thinking about doing something devotional ever since I saw a lovely celtic cross embroidery at a friend's house. I'm talking embroidery by the way not cross stitch or needlepoint.

I don't see any reason why icons shouldn't be interpreted in embroidery. It's well in line with the tradition of embroidered vestments and furnishings.

Here is the Needle'n Thread website. Mary Corbett has a keen interest in ecclesiastical embroidery and a host of resources on the site. I have some vague memory that she has written about icons and embroidery.

Regarding icons and causing offence. I think (but open to correction) that in the Orthodox churches for an icon to be a true Icon it has to be painted ('written') in specific ways by trained and authorised people. Lots of people do icon painting classes for their own enjoyment but I don't think that the Orthodox would recognise them as Icons in their meaning of the word and form.

But the Orthodox don't have a copyright on the word icon or the traditional images afaik.

The whole causing offence thing is a very fine line to walk. One persons humorous idea might be another's blasphemous work of the devil. See various threads in Hell for current examples

I would be really interested if you started a thread somewhere on devotional embroidery.

[ 27. January 2013, 11:39: Message edited by: Thyme ]
 

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Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :
 
I don't have any expertise on icons apart from a growing interest in them (helped by my priest who collects them), but I've seen many vestments on Anglican vestment-makers' websites featuring icons. Your idea sounds wonderful.

As for subversive and humorous saints, what about St Lawrence of Rome? Not funny in himself as such but him being the patron saint of chefs is
 

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Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 
I hope you'll forgive me, as I am not intending to be insulting or dismissive, but in the understanding of the Orthodox Church, not all artwork done in a traditional iconographic style is an icon. To qualify the work must be accompanied by the proper prayers and other conditions. Works whose creation does not meet the conditions can be iconified by subsequent prayer and priestly blessing, however. But it can look and quack like an icon and still not be an icon.

If you're interested in learning the prayers and the methods (for instance you lay down the colors in an icon in decreasing order of darkness: black first, up through scales of darkness/lightness, with white and gold last), by all means check out a book on the subject. I don't have any titles off the top of my head because I have no talent in that department.

For my own personal opinion and based on talking with Orthy friends, I would say that making something in a mockery of an icon (a picture in an icony style, but that has the subject sticking out his or her tongue, for instance) would be offensive to many Orthodoxen. But when my acquaintances see an "icon" of, say, Che Guevarra, the reaction is more of the "oh brother" than the "that's deeply offensive" variety.

In short, go for it. I'd love to see what you come up with. I've long thought there aren't enough embroidery-based icons; it's a beautiful art form that is under-represented in devotional art. Our church has a beaded icon; there are icon fridge magnets, for goodness' sake (we have a few ourselves). Embroidered iconography's day is overdue.

As for humorous saints, I'd love to hear what you turn up. I think (as you may have discerned from my arguing over on the humor-and-religion thread, let alone my decade-old Ortho satire website) that there is definitely a place for holy humor, and many of the saints give indication of having a sense of humor. One of our 19th century saints, Innocent of Alaska, definitely had a playful side, from the stories that have come down.

HTH.
 

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Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 
The comment on icons not being embroidered led to me searching for embroidery and icons on line and my first link was to this book, which may have been where Thyme intended to link to.

Here is interesting article on the British Association of Iconographers. It appears that embroidered icons take even longer than painted ones and so I would start small.

Jengie
 

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Posted by Thyme (# 12360) on :
 
Thanks Jengie Jon
 

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Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 
Cool stuff, Jengie Jon!
 

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Posted by cg (# 14332) on :
 
Have a look at a couple of recent articles in the online Orthodox Arts Journal Embroidery for the Modern Church and this one on the Hexameron workshops on ecclesial embroidery.
 

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Posted by Thyme (# 12360) on :
 
Thanks cq, fascinating.
 

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Posted by Spiffy (# 5267) on :
 
The page for the Needle 'N Thread is here and here is ecclesiastical embroidery category.

There is a page she has about a free book on icon embroidery.
 

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Posted by Earwig (# 12057) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by mousethief:
I hope you'll forgive me, as I am not intending to be insulting or dismissive, but in the understanding of the Orthodox Church, not all artwork done in a traditional iconographic style is an icon. To qualify the work must be accompanied by the proper prayers and other conditions. Works whose creation does not meet the conditions can be iconified by subsequent prayer and priestly blessing, however. But it can look and quack like an icon and still not be an icon.

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quote:

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Originally posted by otyetsfoma:
Mousethief's restrictions on what can be a REAL icon suggest that the mounted icon prints sold at candle desks then sent up by their buyers to the altar to be blessed are really frauds? I don't believe he means that!

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quote:

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Originally posted by mousethief:
Works whose creation does not meet the conditions can be iconified by subsequent prayer and priestly blessing, however.

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Posted by Quinquireme (# 17384) on :
 
You might be interested in a short illustrated book by Rowan Williams called "Ponder these things". I really enjoyed it.
 

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Posted by Manipled Mutineer (# 11514) on :
 
I'm not Orthodox but I am very interested in icons. It seems to me, though, that Mousethief has it right and that provided that the subject and treatment is respectful there should be no problem at all. Indeed I think that it is an excellent idea. I have a book by Peter Pearson, an iconographer, which you might wish to look up. It is called "A Brush with God" and discusses the spiritual practice of iconography, tools, processes and techniques as well as walking the reader through the creation of three sample icons. I am no artist, but apparently it is accessible to those from the Western tradition. Perhaps it might be helpful?
 

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Posted by Earwig (# 12057) on :
 
Thanks Quinquereme and MM! I shall check those out.

Sadly, illness meant I couldn't get my application for the scholarship in, so no free money for embroidery.

But I'll still work on this idea, albeit more slowly. I have to decide which saint to do first!
 

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Posted by gog (# 15615) on :
 
Dear Earwig and others,

A source of icon patterns and ideas (yes for drawn but may also fit your bill) that I've found useful is the following:

http://www.betsyporter.com/index.html
 

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