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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Charles I (Feast of Martyrdom)
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Sergius-Melli
Shipmate
# 17462
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Posted
I suppose this is a particularly Anglican focussed question, but everyone will have an opinion I imagine.
I was wondering how many, if anyone, was keeping the Feast of Charles' Martyrdom tomorrow (to gauge just how far flung the devotion is) and how they are keeping it.
I was also wondering if people had opinions on whether it should be properly reinstated to the Anglican Calender (ie. put back into the BCP) and their opinions on the efforts of some to push this devotion further.
For some info:
The wiki page that mentions about it
and
the Society of KCM website
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
Can we have a feast day for Oliver Cromwell?
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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
Shipmate
# 10745
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Posted
Your link to the Society of King Charles the Martyr partly answers your own question; it advertises the commemoration at Whitehall tomorrow - Mass at midday preceded by the short service outside.
I am not a member of the Society of Charles K & M, but I normally attend this commemoration, but unfortunately, another engagement intervenes this year. But yes, it does attract a viable attendance and the Banqueting Hall is quite full.
There is an Anglican church dedicated to Charles K & M in Barnett, north London and I think in the Tunbridge Wells area.
Off the top of my head, I don't know whether this feast is in BCP or not; I will have to look this up.
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Joyeuses Pâques! Frohe Ostern! Buona Pasqua! ¡Felices Pascuas! Happy Easter!
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Sergius-Melli
Shipmate
# 17462
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
Your link to the Society of King Charles the Martyr partly answers...
...
Off the top of my head, I don't know whether this feast is in BCP or not; I will have to look this up.
I should have been clearer...
I was wondering if anybody excluding the SKCM and patronals was keeping the feast tomorrow.
I know that the feast is commemorated by the society, I do try and attend when I can, but alas this year I can't - I was wondering if it was kept by others out there, and where they are...
As for the BCP it was removed in the 1850's (I have several copies of the BCP with it still in from the c.18th and early c.19th but it was removed in the 1850's at the behest of Parliament. It was reinstated in the CW calender but the BCP calender is the definitive Anglican Calender (IMO) and so omission there is the reason I ask...
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
I shall be commemorating the day by praying for the soul of the murderous King. That's why it's in the calendar, isn't it? ![[Two face]](graemlins/scot_twoface.gif)
Thurible
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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
/slight tangent alert/
Mention of the Lord Protector reminds me of a lovely little story by M. R. James ( The Uncommon Prayer Book), the theme of which is the...ah..... commemoration of said Lord Protector.
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
posted by ecclesiastical:
quote:
Off the top of my head....
I know it's childish, but I did give a little smirk.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
I suppose we can all be redeemed but i fail to see why we should commemorate such a nasty piece of work.
According to Simon Hill, quote:
Charles was one of the most vicious and oppressive rulers that Britain has ever known. Convinced that God had given him the right to rule, he tried to exercise power without Parliament. He levied heavy taxes that hurt the poor and people in the middle rather than the rich. He used many of these taxes to fund very avoidable wars. Eventually, of course, he waged war against his own people.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
I'm with both Leo and Karl. I observe the days for Laud and Baxter, but never Charles or Cromwell. I would perhaps favour Cromwell a little more if he hadn't destroyed the Lady Chapel at my nearest cathedral (Peterborough) - hmph!
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
Shipmate
# 10745
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
posted by ecclesiastical:
quote:
Off the top of my head....
I know it's childish, but I did give a little smirk.
The pun was unintentional.
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Joyeuses Pâques! Frohe Ostern! Buona Pasqua! ¡Felices Pascuas! Happy Easter!
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Yes, I'm troubled by this one too. Having your head chopped off in public is a horrible way to go, but I can't really see Charles I as a saintly martyr.
I wouldn't go as far as Simon Hill (see extract Leo quoted above). Simon Hill is quite simply wrong to put him in the same league as Stalin or Nero. But he was a bad king, small minded, weak when he should have been firm and pig-headed when he should have been flexible. He also exasperated his opponents because he couldn't be trusted, and did not regard himself as bound by his own word. It was that which ultimately did for him. Cometh the hour, cometh the man who sadly wasn't up to it. So I won't be keeping this as a minor saint's day either.
Mind, I also can't relate to the fondness many shipmates have for the memory of Archbishop Laud. It's curious that many of his greatest fans don't seem to be in the same country as he was. True, his king dumped him to save his own skin - fat lot of good it did him in the long run. But Laud was a fussy, pernickety and interfering little man (I suppose these days, that's sizist).
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Sergius-Melli
Shipmate
# 17462
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Posted
Evidently, in answer to my two enquiries, the consensus so far is:
little and none.
I do find it strange that people will commemorate ++Laud but not King Charles, the two seem to go hand-in-hand, and why anyone, let alone Anglicans, would commemorate that incarnation of the anti-Christ Oliver Cromwell (the butcher of Drogheda, megalomaniac religious fanatic, military dictator, etc. etc.) I'm not entirely sure.
Sorry personal bias came in there fora second...
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
It's a very Tory sort of 'feast', isn't it? And not in any sort of good way.
Thurible
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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
They had a do over at All Saints, Ashmont in this here Commonwealth, but unfortunately I couldn't make it.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
They had a do over at All Saints, Ashmont in this here Commonwealth, but unfortunately I couldn't make it.
That's weird. Isn't it a form of treason? Do they also celebrate the birthdays of either George III or our present Queen?
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
He's in the TEC Calendar too, isn't he?
Bonkers.
Thurible
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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
Charles I is not in the TEC BCP. I've no idea if he made it into Holy Women Holy Men.
Charles' canonisation was obviously a political statement upon the Restoration, not so very different to digging up Cromwell and dishonouring his remains. Charles was a horrible ruler, and Laud - though I sympathise with his liturgical programme - was vicious in his treatment of dissenters and really would seem to have been as bad a public figure as Charles was, to the more limited extent that Laud's range of temporal authority allowed. Both men may have been religious, faithful and privately virtuous, and Charles certainly met his death with evident courage and honour. However, this doesn't make either man a suitable focus of veneration.
It's even more absurd for American Anglicans to venerate Charles and Laud. St Clement's Philadelphia has a shrine to the King and keeps his feast day. Grace and St Peter's Baltimore do likewise (both awful little shrine and commemoration). In the Diocese of Dallas (may now be in the Diocese of Fort Worth) there used to be a St William Laud church out in some small town community -- so they canonised the archbishop the old fashioned way: by popular tradition.
The Church of King Charles the Martyr in Tunbridge Wells is right in the centre of town and dates from the town's fashionable spa days. It isn't an especially impressive structure -- a rather ho-hum Georgian affair.
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
They had a do over at All Saints, Ashmont in this here Commonwealth, but unfortunately I couldn't make it.
That's weird. Isn't it a form of treason? Do they also celebrate the birthdays of either George III or our present Queen?
Farmer George is a sadly under-appreciated figure, I'm afraid. However, HMQ is adored by most Americans, who would no doubt be happy for her long to reign over them if we could figure out a way of integrating the monarchy into a system where we already have an elected head of state. And yes, some special occasions like the diamond jubilee of accession did get formally observed in one way or another in various TEC places.
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Pre-cambrian
Shipmate
# 2055
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
According to Simon Hill, quote:
Charles was one of the most vicious and oppressive rulers that Britain has ever known. Convinced that God had given him the right to rule, he tried to exercise power without Parliament. He levied heavy taxes that hurt the poor and people in the middle rather than the rich. He used many of these taxes to fund very avoidable wars. Eventually, of course, he waged war against his own people.
I can see no evidence from Symon Hill's home page that he has any particular historical understanding, and lot of evidence from this quotation that he hasn't, so I don't intend to rely on his opinions.
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"We cannot leave the appointment of Bishops to the Holy Ghost, because no one is confident that the Holy Ghost would understand what makes a good Church of England bishop."
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
One parliamentarian and admirer of Cromwell who admired Charles' demeanour in his death was Andrew Marvell.
http://www.poetryfoundation.org/poem/173949
What I couldn't stomach in Daily Prayer was the collect and canticle refrains for the Monarch on Accession Day on 6 February.
I keep St Vedast or St Paul Miki and companions.
I've never understood why the Stuarts are considered as so dreadful for the doctrine of the divine right of kings, when Henry VIII and Elizabeth clearly acted as thought they believed it.
If only Tories were still defined by support of the Church of England and the monarchy, rather than by selling off the welfare state.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
Ah! Time goes by so quickly. Another year, another discussion on the Feast of Charles' Martyrdom.
Let both he and Cromwell moulder in their graves, say I. They were both a couple of high stakes politicians playing with the future of their country.
So the future came, and it is what it is. Pax.
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
I could use a modern metaphor here. If a hockey player* impresses the community of fans sufficiently, they retire his sweater (jersey) and display it in the arena. What pray tell did Charles I do that merits his sweater being retired? Cromwell as well if you want to include him. Not seeing it myself for either of them.
* NHL, what the uninitiated call "ice hockey", and the only sport that really matters to Canadians.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
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Metapelagius
Shipmate
# 9453
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Can we have a feast day for Oliver Cromwell?
Certainly not!! The only time that I have ever had an iconoclastic urge was when confronted with a stained glass window depicting the regicide. I don't suppose his followers - men like William Dowsing - would have thought much of it, either.
Now, had you suggested a commemoration of the blessed John Knox, that would have been a different matter
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Rec a archaw e nim naccer.
y rof a duv. dagnouet.
Am bo forth. y porth riet.
Crist ny buv e trist yth orsset.
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Can we have a feast day for Oliver Cromwell?
Why? He dismantled the Church of England, suppressed the Prayer Book, and raped Ireland.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
So - both Cromwell and Charles were imperfect - all saints were.
I am coming round to the idea that we should commemorate both of them so as to reflect upon our own shortcomings and how God redeems them.
Understood, leo, but to suggest that the C of E commemorate Cromwell is a bit like suggesting the Catholic Church commemorate John Knox. If Charles I is to be omitted for his faults, or for doubts that he was a saint, then so be it. But it doesn't seem reasonable to me to put someone on the calendar who was violently opposed to your church's polity, worship, and theology.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
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Bostonman
Shipmate
# 17108
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
They had a do over at All Saints, Ashmont in this here Commonwealth, but unfortunately I couldn't make it.
That's weird. Isn't it a form of treason? Do they also celebrate the birthdays of either George III or our present Queen?
Farmer George is a sadly under-appreciated figure, I'm afraid. However, HMQ is adored by most Americans, who would no doubt be happy for her long to reign over them if we could figure out a way of integrating the monarchy into a system where we already have an elected head of state. And yes, some special occasions like the diamond jubilee of accession did get formally observed in one way or another in various TEC places.
I'm sure you don't mean the statement I italicized literally, but for the benefit of non-American readers of the thread: note that nobody in the United States has any interest in a monarchy, and most Americans would be very unhappy to have one!
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
So - both Cromwell and Charles were imperfect - all saints were.
I am coming round to the idea that we should commemorate both of them so as to reflect upon our own shortcomings and how God redeems them.
Understood, leo, but to suggest that the C of E commemorate Cromwell is a bit like suggesting the Catholic Church commemorate John Knox. If Charles I is to be omitted for his faults, or for doubts that he was a saint, then so be it. But it doesn't seem reasonable to me to put someone on the calendar who was violently opposed to your church's polity, worship, and theology.
Your second point seems best. Charles I should be omitted for his faults: while martyrdom is one of the classic characteristics of sainthood, "dying for one's beliefs" and "dying at the end of a war in which one killed lots of other people in a mutual disagreement about beliefs" are two rather different things. Charles and Oliver both had Christian blood on their hands. While I don't doubt that we'll all see the two of them sharing a pint in heaven eventually, I can't see sainting either in this world, myself.
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Actually Cromwell was interesting on polity, really not interested in prescribing it at all. When he decided he had to make the decision, it was basically the polity should be as the area wanted. The problem with the Anglicans was not their polity but that they wanted everyone else to use that as well.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sergius-Melli:
.....why anyone, let alone Anglicans, would commemorate that incarnation of the anti-Christ Oliver Cromwell (the butcher of Drogheda, megalomaniac religious fanatic, military dictator, etc. etc.) I'm not entirely sure.
Sorry personal bias came in there fora second...
Drogheda was hardly exceptional in the military annals of the time. It's arguable whether Cromwell ordered it or was responsible.
Read the man's letters: this was no Puritan but an independant with a surprising toleration (except for idiots with pretensions on thrones). Military dictator? A man who promoted on merit and fought with great strategic wisdom and insight. The Civil War and the Commonwealth were a period where many churches were planted (Independant or baptist or congregational) - perhaps more than at any time in english history except the victorian era.
If it comes down to prejudice at least he's better than that effete, catholic loving, non entity, lying toerag, Charles Stuart.
King Oliver is a fellow graduate of a certain cambridge college; his step mother lived in the same village I was born in and my ancesters fought in his new model army. Don't diss my mate Ollie!
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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k-mann
Shipmate
# 8490
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Yes, I'm troubled by this one too. Having your head chopped off in public is a horrible way to go, but I can't really see Charles I as a saintly martyr.
That really depends on what you mean by a martyr. It doesn't mean a perfect person, they way we often use the word 'saint' in daily life. The reason he is considered a martyr, AFAIK, is that he could have lived but was killed partly because he refused to give up his beliefs concerning the episcopacy.
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"Being religious means asking passionately the question of the meaning of our existence and being willing to receive answers, even if the answers hurt."
— Paul Tillich
Katolikken
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by k-mann:
[QUOTE] The reason he is considered a martyr, AFAIK, is that he could have lived but was killed partly because he refused to give up his beliefs concerning the episcopacy.
If that's the reason then it's rather ill conceived. The episcopacy didn't really bother him - he'd dump anyone and anything so long as Charles Stuart was top dog. His wasn't and isn't a very attractive character.
Perhaps a martyr to the cause of bluster and bringing the French into fight in England? (What a narrow escape, we'd never have got them out again).
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
There is a certain logic to American Anglicans honouring Laud, given the link between "Laud's Book" and the American Episcopal BCP.
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k-mann
Shipmate
# 8490
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Posted
That doesn't really alter that fact that, faced with the axe, he refused to give up his beliefs.
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"Being religious means asking passionately the question of the meaning of our existence and being willing to receive answers, even if the answers hurt."
— Paul Tillich
Katolikken
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Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
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Posted
We forget that prior to the Enlightenment, the notion that the State would dictate its religious beliefs to its citizens were largely accepted. There were a few dissenters who began to argue for religious freedom, but during the 16th and early 17th century, it was taken for granted that the ruler could dictate religious issues.
Cromwell was of course no different than Charles in that regard. Under the Commonwealth regime, the Book of Common Prayer was criminalized and Anglican worship went underground.
Charles was personally very devout and one could see him as an example of how a person in authority can struggle with being a faithful Christian. Now one can view him that way without endorsing his particular actions. We can say that at the very least, imposing your own religious beliefs on your people leads to disastrous consequences.
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
At Ascension, Chicago, tomorrow we'll observe Charles Stuart, King of England and Scotland, and Martyr, 1649, as a lesser feast at 7 a.m. and 6:20 p.m. Low Masses, with collect and lessons of the feast from our parish supplementary lectionary. At Evening Prayer at 6 p.m., I'll supply an antiphon on Magnificat and a collect (not matching the one used at Mass) from the Monastic Diurnal.
[ 29. January 2013, 20:21: Message edited by: Oblatus ]
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by k-mann:
That doesn't really alter that fact that, faced with the axe, he refused to give up his beliefs.
Face by the ax he continued to believe in the divine right of Kings. Rather akin to believing in the Easter Bunny or the tooth fairy.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
Golly, everyone taking sides so vigorously in a war 360 years gone. Almost as bad a going out of one's way to express ethical superiority to both sides. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
I know this is a hide into nothing, but can we keep this discussion civil this year?
(That isn't meant to be a pun by the way...)
Much obliged,
dj_ordinaire, Eccles host
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Flinging wide the gates...
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
Golly, everyone taking sides so vigorously in a war 360 years gone. Almost as bad a going out of one's way to express ethical superiority to both sides.
360 years is nothing. Where I used to live, they're still arguing over who sent the most ships to fight the spanish armada
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
So - both Cromwell and Charles were imperfect - all saints were.
I am coming round to the idea that we should commemorate both of them so as to reflect upon our own shortcomings and how God redeems them.
It's the only way I can get by when St Wilfrid's feast comes around. I just think that if he can be a saint, there may well be some hope for me yet, which, I suppose, is rather the point.
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
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k-mann
Shipmate
# 8490
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by k-mann:
That doesn't really alter that fact that, faced with the axe, he refused to give up his beliefs.
Face by the ax he continued to believe in the divine right of Kings. Rather akin to believing in the Easter Bunny or the tooth fairy.
I have absolutely no idea how this response was in any way relevant to my point about his belief in the episcopacy. It is perfectly possible to hold a high view of the episcopacy on the one hand and, om the other hand, not believe in the divine right of kings. I doubt that most Anglo-Catholics in the US believe in the believe in the divine right of kings. But I would be surprised if they didn’t hold a high view of the episcopacy.
And I find it historically arrogant to put the idea of the divine right of kings — an idea based, perhaps wrongly, on ideas from Scripture itself — on the same level as belief in the Easter Bunny or the tooth fairy.
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"Being religious means asking passionately the question of the meaning of our existence and being willing to receive answers, even if the answers hurt."
— Paul Tillich
Katolikken
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
At Ascension, Chicago, tomorrow we'll observe Charles Stuart, King of England and Scotland, and Martyr, 1649, as a lesser feast at 7 a.m. and 6:20 p.m. Low Masses, with collect and lessons of the feast from our parish supplementary lectionary. At Evening Prayer at 6 p.m., I'll supply an antiphon on Magnificat and a collect (not matching the one used at Mass) from the Monastic Diurnal.
In that case, I hope you will also be observing the 6th of February in the form prescribed by warrant of the 26th July 1958?
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Scrumpmeister:
It's the only way I can get by when St Wilfrid's feast comes around. I just think that if he can be a saint, there may well be some hope for me yet, which, I suppose, is rather the point.
Thank you for that Scrumpmeister. That's a very encouraging thought about a saint to whose saintliness I also find it difficult to relate.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Bran Stark
Shipmate
# 15252
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bostonman:
I'm sure you don't mean the statement I italicized literally, but for the benefit of non-American readers of the thread: note that nobody in the United States has any interest in a monarchy, and most Americans would be very unhappy to have one!
Well I am an American who would dearly love to have a monarchy, and shall duly celebrate Blessed Charles' martyrdom tomorrow. It will probably be a lonely celebration, I admit, but still. Even in a secular college in republican America, I shall do my part to keep the cult alive. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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IN SOVIET ЯUSSIA, SIGNATUЯE ЯEAD YOU!
Posts: 304 | Registered: Oct 2009
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Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
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Posted
St John Chrysostom whose feast was transferred today is well known to have been a vicious anti-Semite. If being an ass is reason to be taken off the Saints' list, then our lists will be severely trimmed, not just for Charles Stuart.
[ 29. January 2013, 23:17: Message edited by: Anglican_Brat ]
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It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
Posts: 4332 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007
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John Holding
Coffee and Cognac
# 158
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Posted
Its not really clear to me that Charles died for the sake of his religious beliefs. He certainly died for political reasons and even if he had renounced episcopacy, he'd still have been dead on a scaffold in WHitehall. You can argue that there was a blend of religion and politics, but really he was killed because he was a very bad (and a very unlucky) king, not because he believed in bishops and all the rest.
John
Posts: 5929 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: May 2001
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
NHL, what the uninitiated call "ice hockey"...
Around these parts we call it Ice Boxing.
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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Zappa
Ship's Wake
# 8433
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pre-cambrian:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
According to Simon Hill, quote:
Charles was one of the most vicious and oppressive rulers that Britain has ever known. Convinced that God had given him the right to rule, he tried to exercise power without Parliament. He levied heavy taxes that hurt the poor and people in the middle rather than the rich. He used many of these taxes to fund very avoidable wars. Eventually, of course, he waged war against his own people.
I can see no evidence from Symon Hill's home page that he has any particular historical understanding, and lot of evidence from this quotation that he hasn't, so I don't intend to rely on his opinions.
Clearly he got confused with St George W. Bush
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shameless self promotion - because I think it's worth it
and mayhap this too: http://broken-moments.blogspot.co.nz/
Posts: 18917 | From: "Central" is all they call it | Registered: Sep 2004
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Amos
Shipmate
# 44
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Posted
Symon Hill is hardly an authority on Charles I!
The Parish Church in Kidderminster is required to supply a priest to commemorate the Feast of Charles, King and Martyr with prayers and a sermon on the steps of the Town Hall every year on this day, at the time of his execution. Charles gave the town its Charter. I understand that the clergy (who take turns officiating) find it a particular challenge to preach something new every year. None, to my knowledge has ever refused to take the service.
There is also an annual commemoration (in June, I think) of Richard Baxter, with a service (usually with a guest preacher) within the parish church and also over at an obelisk which a rich 19th c. eccentric erected in the woods to the north of the town.
[ 30. January 2013, 06:34: Message edited by: Amos ]
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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
Posts: 7667 | From: Summerisle | Registered: May 2001
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