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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Alleluias during Lent??
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Mockingale
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# 16599
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Posted
I'm making the shift to Lutheran from Episcopalian, in part because I'm marrying a nice midwestern ELCA girl, in part because I like the Lutheran congregation I'm going to, and in part because the Episcopalians in this diocese are squirrely and wrapped up in the conservative end of the Episcopal culture war.
I've started singing with the choir at the ELCA church where I attend. They're a nice sort - not a lot of the people have formal training, but they can carry a tune reasonably well if they repeat it enough times in rehearsal.
I've refused, however, to sing in the upcoming Good Friday service or even attend this church on that day. Why? We're singing this piece on Good Friday. It's not a somber piece, although it has some somber elements and movements. However, there's one song in the work that contains the word "Alleluia" and I've always been taught that that's a no-no during Lent in general.
I've come to accept that this church is a little light on traditional ritual and a little stronger on good preaching and a joyful atmosphere, and that's a trade-off I'm generally willing to make, but it just seems like Good Friday is supposed to be a somber reflection on Christ's sacrifice on our behalf. It's always had special power because it is uniquely funereal in mood compared to the joy of Easter.
Heck, the description says "the work is appropriate for Holy Week or post Easter presentations." How is that even possible? It's like saying that this cake is appropriate for weddings as well as wakes.
Am I being unnecessarily crappy about this, or what?
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The Silent Acolyte
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# 1158
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Posted
It seems to me that you just don't like the multi-purpose nature of the piece and the Alleluias are the easiest handle to grab. But, I find your objection to something that is "appropriate for Holy Week or post Easter" entirely reasonable.
For what it's worth, the Orthodox (always good guides) are not shy about singing Alleluia on Good Friday (during the Royal Hours) and, if I recall correctly they actually step up the number of Alleluias they sing during Lent as a whole.
Theirs is not a Western tradition, but it might help to loosen our death-grip on excluding Alleluias during Lent.
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Percy B
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# 17238
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Posted
I thought the no Alleluias in Lent just related to the Gospel acclamation . I thought the rest was popular restraint rather than a rule.
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Mary, a priest??
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Basilica
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# 16965
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Percy B:
I thought the no Alleluias in Lent just related to the Gospel acclamation . I thought the rest was popular restraint rather than a rule.
It's removed in other places too, e.g. in the office.
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
It is removed from set parts of the liturgy where it would occur. The idea that 'free' parts of a service - hymns, sermons, popular devotions - should avoid the A-word is just a pious custom which some find useful and others don't.
Although I would prefer to forego their use entirely, I wouldn't look askance at a church which saw no issue with this. Especially, if you are newly arrived in the ELCA, it would seem overly-sensitive to object to such an innocuous practice... no?
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Flinging wide the gates...
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Mockingale
Shipmate
# 16599
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
It seems to me that you just don't like the multi-purpose nature of the piece and the Alleluias are the easiest handle to grab. But, I find your objection to something that is "appropriate for Holy Week or post Easter" entirely reasonable.
For what it's worth, the Orthodox (always good guides) are not shy about singing Alleluia on Good Friday (during the Royal Hours) and, if I recall correctly they actually step up the number of Alleluias they sing during Lent as a whole.
Theirs is not a Western tradition, but it might help to loosen our death-grip on excluding Alleluias during Lent.
It's entirely possible that I'm being unreasonable. When I said that I "refuse," I mean that I politely declined that I was going to sing at that service, for unspecified reasons.
It's not so much the word "Alleluia" as the fact that singing any sprawling choral work (it's 80 pages) on the most somber day of the Christian calendar seems incongruous.
The hidden subtext is that I like this church despite my misgivings about leaving the denomination I grew up in and its starchier ethos, and this is my final act of protest.
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76
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Posted
Personally, Mockingale, I'd be inclined to ask myself if I'd turned a surface observance into a legalistic straitjacket.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
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Mockingale
Shipmate
# 16599
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Personally, Mockingale, I'd be inclined to ask myself if I'd turned a surface observance into a legalistic straitjacket.
At some level the charge of legalism becomes a cop out. "Why do we have a trained pastor lead worship? Why have bread and wine at communion? It all seems so legalistic."
I'm not sure where that point is, but suffice it to say that I think customs shouldn't be lightly discarded. I don't think a big chorale with joyous singing and handbells is appropriate on the commemoration of the Crucifixion.
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76
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Posted
Now you've introduced a rather separate element from the mere alleluias.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
And yet, many churches do have rather elaborate worship for Good Friday. The Orthodoxen have already been mentioned, and we might add the solemn Reproaches (sung in the Colosseum in Rome!), the many Anglican churches which will perform Stainer's Crucifixion on this day and the Lutherans who will sing one of Bach's Passions.
Again, my preference would agree with yours - keep the grand choral works for Palm Sunday do something more stripped down on Good Friday itself. But I hope I recognise that this isn't the only way of doing it...
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Flinging wide the gates...
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StevHep
Shipmate
# 17198
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Posted
It does seem to reflect an impatience with bereavement. The pause between the death of Jesus and His resurrection is an opportunity to reflect upon unredeemed loss, which is what Mary and the disciples experienced on Good Friday, Holy Saturday and part of Easter Sunday. A premature celebration of the Empty Tomb deprives us of the chance to contemplate the full one and all its implications.
[ 06. February 2013, 14:51: Message edited by: StevHep ]
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Ceremoniar
Shipmate
# 13596
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Posted
Where I come from, the practice is not to say the A-word at all, even in casual speech, during Lent. This really makes uttering it after Easter such much sweeter, even in casual speech.
When we practice for the Easter Vigil, it is obviously during Lenten time, so my written notes and verbal directions say the "A-word," instead of the actual word. Some of the other servers and a few of the priests who have passed through have picked up on this and do the same.
![[Angel]](graemlins/angel.gif)
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
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# 11274
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Posted
I realise this is tangential, but it is directly related to the wording of Mockingale's posts. Since the ELCA and TEC are in full communion with one another, is it really necessary to consider that one is "leaving" TEC to "join" the ELCA? ISTM that one would be switching parishes, something that folks do within a denomination all the time. Various life vicissitudes might bring one back to a TEC parish, or to an array of future experiences in ELCA and TEC places.
The cultures and liturgical praxis to be found in the two respective denominations depend a lot on the diocese/synod, geographical region, urban-rural continuum, and individual parish characteristics. Some Lutheran places will be liturgically precise and conscientious, whilst some TEC places will disregard rubrics and normative tradition -- and vice versa.
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Seems to me it's a matter of "When in Wittenburg do as the Lutherans do." The Episcopalians don't say "Alleluia" during Lent; the Lutherans do. As the Russians say, "Don't bring your typikon to my monastery."
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ORGANMEISTER
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# 6621
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Posted
In European Lutheran tradition music is incorporated into the observance of Good Friday. Bach's Passions were intended for this day. For the last several years we have observed Good Friday with a choral tenebrae; chamber orchestra with organ and choir. It has been very effective in conveying the solemnity of the day. The congregation will sing verses of O Sacred Head in the course of the service. Both SBH and LBW (I'm not as familiar with ELW)have hymns specifically for Good Friday.
As for the Alleluia's.......We only omit them as the preface to the Gospel. The liturgy for Lent provides alternate prefaces for Lent
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Mama Thomas
Shipmate
# 10170
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Posted
I think this rule is fairly new in TEC, well sine the 79. I don't think the word existed apart from hymns in the old days.
I speak from experience when I say there must be many, many parishes where the dismissal is ALWAYS " Thanks be to God, alleluia, alleluia" Christmas or Good Friday--and any other day too. The rubrical and psychosocial ban on the word during Lent is unique to certain types of congregations and people. I'd like to meet some one day then I would feel so alone!
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All hearts are open, all desires known
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
Just a word of caution: you are rarely going to find liturgical precision in the ELCA.
It is almost universal in the ELCA to replace the Alleluia before the Gospel with a tract during Lent. In fact, you're far more likely to find an Alleluia or a Tract before the Gospel in an ELCA church than in an Episcopal one. However, when it comes to hymn or other musical selection, some ELCA churches are really careful to omit Alleluia, while others don't even think about it.
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
Since the ELCA and TEC are in full communion with one another, is it really necessary to consider that one is "leaving" TEC to "join" the ELCA? ISTM that one would be switching parishes, something that folks do within a denomination all the time.
This is true. It's a simple matter of a letter of transfer, like changing churches within the denomination. This has even been codified in the Canons of the Episcopal Church.
quote:
Mockingale:
At some level the charge of legalism becomes a cop out. "Why do we have a trained pastor lead worship? Why have bread and wine at communion? It all seems so legalistic."
You will find that the level of liturgical training at ELCA seminaries is different from that at Episcopal.
Also, just because a pastor is aware of the Norm Throughout Christendom doesn't mean s/he has any intention of following it. There is no oversight to which you can turn, other than the congregational council and the congregational vote to dismiss if need be.
[ 07. February 2013, 00:03: Message edited by: Olaf ]
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Mockingale
Shipmate
# 16599
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
I realise this is tangential, but it is directly related to the wording of Mockingale's posts. Since the ELCA and TEC are in full communion with one another, is it really necessary to consider that one is "leaving" TEC to "join" the ELCA? ISTM that one would be switching parishes, something that folks do within a denomination all the time. Various life vicissitudes might bring one back to a TEC parish, or to an array of future experiences in ELCA and TEC places.
The cultures and liturgical praxis to be found in the two respective denominations depend a lot on the diocese/synod, geographical region, urban-rural continuum, and individual parish characteristics. Some Lutheran places will be liturgically precise and conscientious, whilst some TEC places will disregard rubrics and normative tradition -- and vice versa.
It's an interesting question. I feel that in the "essentials" the Episcopal Church and the ELCA are leaves on the same branch. The theology is the same I grew up with - reliant on the creeds, Protestant but not arrogantly so.
At the same time, it is a different cultural tradition than I'm used to. I've always attended MOTR to Anglo-Catholic parishes... all faithful to the BCP Rites I or II, all with basically the same musical repertoire and aesthetic. This church is somewhat unusual I'm told even for the Lutherans - they've clearly incorporated some evangelical and modern worship elements (they use projection screens and some modern worship music, about which I was initially skeptical) while retaining a basic liturgical structure and a moderate-but-orthodox theological stance. Close your eyes and it's basically a paraphrase of Rite II.
It is the congregation with both lesbian moms and Romney voters side by side in the "pews", which I like. The pastor is really good. It has a generally happy and vibrant feel about it. I'm a fan.
I don't feel like I've betrayed or even left the Episcopal Church. If anything, I'm sad that the local diocese seems to have been taken over by zealots and chased away many moderates and most liberals. One parish I checked out had a workshop about inviting the Holy Spirit to cure you or your family members of homosexuality. Other parishes feel like they're run by fundamentalists in robes. It's just... not the Church I grew up with. ![[Projectile]](graemlins/puke2.gif)
It's different in this ELCA parish, but mostly good, and it's expanded my horizons from the comfort of repetition of the same words every week.
I suppose I might wait to make a final decision about Good Friday until I can see what the liturgy is going to look like. If it is mostly appropriate, perhaps I can overlook a mixed use piece. Or maybe I can go to the Episcopal cathedral downtown for a dose of ye olde religion and hope they don't use the opportunity to lead a pogrom.
[ 07. February 2013, 02:02: Message edited by: Mockingale ]
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Olaf:
Just a word of caution: you are rarely going to find liturgical precision in the ELCA.
I'm not sure exactly what liturgical precision might mean these days (I'm definitely not being snarky here), but St. Mark's Evangelical Church, Baltimore, Maryland, (ELCA) is about as intentional and specific about its liturgy as almost any TEC parish I've ever been to, save for AC places such as the Advent, Boston, etc., or St. Thomas, Fifth Avenue.
And, it has an awesome Tiffany interior.
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mockingale:
It is the congregation with both lesbian moms and Romney voters side by side in the "pews"...
This is worth more than its weight in gold, yea, than much fine gold.
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mockingale:
I suppose I might wait to make a final decision about Good Friday until I can see what the liturgy is going to look like. If it is mostly appropriate, perhaps I can overlook a mixed use piece. Or maybe I can go to the Episcopal cathedral downtown for a dose of ye olde religion and hope they don't use the opportunity to lead a pogrom.
The ELCA, like the TEC has only had official proper liturgies for Lent and Holy Week since the 70s. While they did manage to get published in the pew editions of the BCP79, they unfortunately didn't make the cut, and were left out of the pew edition of the (1978) Lutheran Book of Worship. Oh, they are in the Altar Book, where they were promptly forgotten for 30 years.
In (2006) Evangelical Lutheran Worship, they did make the cut, and do appear in the pew edition. Hopefully they will see an increase in use.
That said, old habits are hard to break. When it comes to Maundy Thursday and Good Friday, most Lutheran congregations and pastors have their cherished practices, and the proper liturgies are not high on the priority list. A choral presentation or cantata on Good Friday is very common, as is a service of the Seven Last Words, and occasionally a mix of the two, or something called tenebrae (not what you think).
Don't judge us Lutherans too harshly on the Holy Triduum. We are on the right track, but about 30 years behind TEC. If you really click with the proper liturgies, find a TEC church that offers them with fidelity, and make your Lenten visitation there. This is what I do.
[ 07. February 2013, 03:13: Message edited by: Olaf ]
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
quote:
Originally posted by Olaf:
Just a word of caution: you are rarely going to find liturgical precision in the ELCA.
I'm not sure exactly what liturgical precision might mean these days (I'm definitely not being snarky here), but St. Mark's Evangelical Church, Baltimore, Maryland, (ELCA) is about as intentional and specific about its liturgy as almost any TEC parish I've ever been to, save for AC places such as the Advent, Boston, etc., or St. Thomas, Fifth Avenue.
And, it has an awesome Tiffany interior.
We definitely have good places of liturgical refuge. Unfortunately, they rarely seem to be in the right place (near me) at the right time (when I want).
St. Mark's is a fine example, as are Holy Trinity, Manhattan. (the church the marshmallow man steps on in Ghostbusters); First, Pittsburgh; Mount Olive, Minneapolis; St. Luke, Chicago; Holy Trinity, Chicago; Augustana, DC; and many others, mostly urban.
Still, in that caliber of liturgics, we are talking maybe 100 out of 10,000 churches. In the MOTR category of liturgical variety and local practice, we have maybe 9000.
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sonata3
Shipmate
# 13653
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Posted
One ELCA parish I know goes to considerable lengths to omit the festive in Lent -- not only are Gloria and Alleluia omitted, but also the Creed, and a Eucharistic Prayer without Sanctus is also used.
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"I prefer neurotic people; I like to hear rumblings beneath the surface." Stephen Sondheim
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
I would respect anyone's decision to opt out for the reason given in the OP. But personally I don't think it's worth agonizing over. Lent is a time when many masses, requiems and religious music is sung, many of which include alleluias.
Liturgically it could pose a problem, though. And I don't know the piece in question so maybe it isn't suitable anyway.
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
It is removed from set parts of the liturgy where it would occur. The idea that 'free' parts of a service - hymns, sermons, popular devotions - should avoid the A-word is just a pious custom which some find useful and others don't.
And most have probably never heard of!
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
For what it's worth, the Orthodox (always good guides) are not shy about singing Alleluia on Good Friday (during the Royal Hours) and, if I recall correctly they actually step up the number of Alleluias they sing during Lent as a whole.
You do indeed recall correctly.
During the weekdays of Lent, at Matins, the responsory, "The Lord is God, and has appeared to us" disappears, and in its place is sung the Alleluia. It is the former - not the latter - that is seen as an acclamation of the Resurrection (which is why the declaration that "The Lord is God" remains on the Sundays of Lent). Indeed, Alleluia seems not to have developed a particular association with the Resurrection in the east as it did in the west.
And therein lies my point: it did so develop in the west, so why would those following a western liturgical tradition not wish to observe it?
[ 09. February 2013, 17:48: Message edited by: The Scrumpmeister ]
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
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seasick
...over the edge
# 48
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Posted
What is the practice in the Orthodox Western Rites with regard to alleluias in Lent?
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We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seasick:
What is the practice in the Orthodox Western Rites with regard to alleluias in Lent?
It depends on the form of the Rite.
By and large, the Alleluia is omitted. Certainly this is the case at the Divine Office and at the Mass before the Gospel. However, love the Orthodox Western Rite though I do, some of the manifestations leave something to be desired.
One example comes from a misunderstanding on the part of the compiler of the St Petroc texts of how the psalms, tropes, and repetitions were used in the "Old Roman" rite, (of which the foreshortend "minor propers" of the late mediaeval and modern Roman rites are remnants). It came to light once during an exchange with him that he had not realised that the texts of the propers as they appear in the missal are merely the bald texts, which are given once only, with the assumption that the choir and anybody familiar with the Mass would know what to do with them.
Therefore, for the feast of the Assumption, for instance, the missal simply gives:
quote:
Rejoice we all, and praise the Lord, celebrating a holy day in honour of the Virgin Mary, for whose Assumption the Angels are joyful, and glorify the Son of God.
My heart in inditing of a goodly matter; I speak of the things which I have made unto the King.
However, the choir would know that these texts are to be arranged thus:
quote:
Rejoice we all, and praise the Lord, celebrating a holy day in honour of the Virgin Mary, for whose Assumption the Angels are joyful, and glorify the Son of God.
My heart in inditing of a goodly matter; I speak of the things which I have made unto the King.
Rejoice we all, and praise the Lord, celebrating a holy day in honour of the Virgin Mary, for whose Assumption the Angels are joyful, and glorify the Son of God.
Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost; as it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be; world without end. Amen.
Rejoice we all, and praise the Lord, celebrating a holy day in honour of the Virgin Mary, for whose Assumption the Angels are joyful, and glorify the Son of God.
With these repetitions and the somewhat melismatic chants used, this gives the priest more than ample time to complete the prayers of preparation and to perform the censing. Yet, on the first occasion I sang Mass while this priest was celebrating, when I was singing the introit in this troped form, he stopped me right there during the Mass, looked puzzled, and asked what I was doing.
What I had long known as the "normal" way of doing these things was alien to him. He had seen the bare texts of various introits as they appeared in the missal and had assumed that this is how they would historically have been sung. Then, having in mind the introit (and other sung portions of the Mass) in this abbreviated form and realising that this left insufficient time for the priest to do what he needed to, at this and other points, he padded out parts of the Mass with extraneous hymns, and included them in his text as fixed parts of the Mass.
All of that is a lead-in to saying that one such example is the use of Moultrie's paraphrase of "Let all mortal flesh keep silent" as a set, unchanging part of the liturgy, sung during the Offertory. This, of course, is not western at all, but is from the Jerusalem Liturgy of St James, and concludes with Alleluias, which are quite out of place during Lent in the Western Rite.
This is something of an anomaly, as far as I am aware, and most Western Rite Orthodox Liturgies (at least of the Roman variety) are more in keeping with western norms in this regard.
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Scrumpmeister:
Yet, on the first occasion I sang Mass while this priest was celebrating, when I was singing the introit in this troped form, he stopped me right there during the Mass, looked puzzled, and asked what I was doing.
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
Ya have to love the homely Orthodox. I'm serious. Talk about feeling right at home—being comfortable in one's skin.
"He stopped me right there during the mass and asked what I was doing"!
The Western mode would be to clench the teeth and soldier on as if this were the way we'd been doing it for centuries. And, then, after the mass, to ask the question.
I once witnessed a Divine Liturgy—some feast of title—where a priest, whose parish was very remote to the church, was waaay late, and who, upon entering into the altar was immediately mobbed by all the priests, deacons, subdeacons, and acolytes, who greet him effusively and at length.
The entire service ground to a complete halt, until everybody had said their howdies. Then things picked up again as though nothing had happened.
Sometimes it make me feel abashed at what a scold I am about the mayhem and chaos of the Coffee-Hour Peace at Episcopal Church liturgies.
Not very often and not for very long, but sometimes.
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