Ship of Fools: Holy huddle

Thread: Holy huddle Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by tartanbiretta (# 17172) on :

The holy huddle of priests with bishop at priestly ordination - is this a peculiarly Anglican tradition (coming from Sarum, I think?), or does it occur in any other liturgical tradition? How about Lutherans? Has this been carried into Ordinariate liturgy? And what do they do at Forward in Faith ordinations - the huddle or the one by one Roman approach?

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

You mean the laying on of hands by priest with the bishop at a priestly ordination?

Or the joint laying on of hands by bishops at an episcopal ordination?

They are both specified in the 1662 BCP and I'd be surprised if it wasn't RC practice as well or peculiar to Sarum.

The only URC ordination I've been to, hands were laid on the candidate by the Moderator and all the other ministers (URC and other) present.

Posted by Hart (# 4991) on :

You can see the laying on of hands by the roughly 100 concelebrants of then-Deacon Matt Kuczora in this video beginning at minute 55. In two months time, three of my brothers in community will be kneeling on those steps, praise God, and in another year it should be me and my classmate.

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

That's very moving and impressive. It's not the way we Anglicans do it though: it's more like a rugby scrum with priests gathering round to lay hands simultaneously with the bishop, while he is saying the ordination prayer.

Is the service in the video the post-Vatican 2 way of doing things, or was it always thus?

Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :

Yes Reformed churches tend to have the practice of laying on of hands as well as the right hand of fellowship. URC have at least the moderator, but quite often Moderator, and several other people representing parts of the Church (not necessarily ordained).

In other parts it is by all ordained presbyters*.

My experience as an elder suggests that ordination is by the laying on of hands by the minister of the congregation and/or a.n.other elder but would not like to be quoted on this.

Jengie

*fyi as we ordain elders it needs to be stated that it is only presbyters in such cases.

Posted by Pine Marten (# 11068) on :

That was beautiful, Hart, very moving and dignified. My very best wishes for you when the time comes [Votive]

Posted by tartanbiretta (# 17172) on :

I realise that in the Roman rite after the laying on of hands by the Bishop, priests come forward individually and lay hands on the candidate. I was enquiring after the Anglican situation, where all priests present lay hands on the candidate at the same time as the Bishop. Does this practice exist elsewhere in other episcopally ordered churches? And what is the FiF and Ordinariate take on this re: Anglican patrimony?

Posted by ORGANMEISTER (# 6621) on :

At the last Lutheran (ELCA) ordination I attended the ordinand knelt and the Bishop(s) attending (yes, there was an Episcopal Bishop in the group) and all the ordained clergy present, except the RC representative, placed their hands on the guy's head. It did look like a football team getting ready to take the field.

Posted by Olaf (# 11804) on :

quote:
Originally posted by ORGANMEISTER:
At the last Lutheran (ELCA) ordination I attended the ordinand knelt and the Bishop(s) attending (yes, there was an Episcopal Bishop in the group) and all the ordained clergy present, except the RC representative, placed their hands on the guy's head. It did look like a football team getting ready to take the field.

I've encountered it in every ELCA ordination I can remember, whether it was setting apart a bishop or a pastor.

At the most recent ordination of pastors I attended, the synodical bishop was the principal celebrant, but a former bishop of another synod who was visiting as our representative from Churchwide HQ also was invited to join in the laying on of hands. Additionally, the sponsor-pastors from the training period laid on hands, as did any other pastors whom the ordinand had invited (e.g. pastor of home parish, pastor who baptized and/or confirmed, family members who are pastors). If there had been dignitaries from any of our full communion partners--Episcopal, Methodist, Presbyterian, Reformed, Moravian--they would have been invited as well.

Posted by churchgeek (# 5557) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Hart:
You can see the laying on of hands by the roughly 100 concelebrants of then-Deacon Matt Kuczora in this video beginning at minute 55. In two months time, three of my brothers in community will be kneeling on those steps, praise God, and in another year it should be me and my classmate.

For some reason, the video never appeared for me, so I looked at photos.

One was especially moving - the bishop kneels before the newly ordained priest and receives his blessing?!? Wow, that's beautiful. Is that the norm in the RC ordination liturgy? I've never been to one.

Posted by Fr Weber (# 13472) on :

quote:
Originally posted by churchgeek:

One was especially moving - the bishop kneels before the newly ordained priest and receives his blessing?!? Wow, that's beautiful. Is that the norm in the RC ordination liturgy? I've never been to one.

It's customary in our neck of the woods for a newly-ordained priest to bless members of the congregation individually after his ordination. I remember my bishop, who just 45 minutes before had laid his hands on me to ordain me, being the first to kneel before me. I hesitated, because at that moment the realness of what had happened really hit me. He looked up at me, smiled, and said "Pray, Father, a blessing." I just about started bawling.

Posted by Hart (# 4991) on :

quote:
Originally posted by churchgeek:

One was especially moving - the bishop kneels before the newly ordained priest and receives his blessing?!? Wow, that's beautiful. Is that the norm in the RC ordination liturgy? I've never been to one.

In my limited experience, yes. Generally at the end of the service, but sometimes in the sacristy afterwards. Beautiful, but nerve-wracking!

Posted by Triple Tiara (# 9556) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
That's very moving and impressive. It's not the way we Anglicans do it though: it's more like a rugby scrum with priests gathering round to lay hands simultaneously with the bishop, while he is saying the ordination prayer.

Is the service in the video the post-Vatican 2 way of doing things, or was it always thus?

In the pre-Conciliar rite there was a threefold "imposition* of hands: (i) when the ordaining bishop followed by the priests, laid hands on the head of the candidate in silence (ii) when the bishop and the priests together extended hands during the prayer of ordination (which act, as in Confirmation, also constitutes the act of laying on of hands even though there is no actual physical act of laying hands on the head of the candidate) and (iii) when the bishop again imposed his hands at the end of the Mass, giving power to forgive sins, saying "Accipe Spiritum Sanctum". Until that moment the priest's chasuble was folded and pinned up at the back. At this point it was unfurled and the chasuble allowed to hang free. This final formula (without the chasuble part, obviously) was the part adopted by the Anglican Rite of ordination ("Receive the Holy Spirit etc"), doing away with the earlier act of laying on of hands in silence and extending them during the prayer of ordination.

Just in passing, it was the first two which were regarded as the essential "matter" of the sacrament, along with the prorectio instrumentorum or "giving of the instruments" (the chalice and paten containing bread and wine). This, at least in part, explains some of the reservations about Anglican Orders, given that they had removed what was regarded as the essential matter, and retained the part which was not regarded as essential. But that's a can of worms!!!!

quote:
Originally posted by tartanbiretta:
I realise that in the Roman rite after the laying on of hands by the Bishop, priests come forward individually and lay hands on the candidate. I was enquiring after the Anglican situation, where all priests present lay hands on the candidate at the same time as the Bishop. Does this practice exist elsewhere in other episcopally ordered churches? And what is the FiF and Ordinariate take on this re: Anglican patrimony?

I cannot, of course, answer for the other groups you mention, but where the Ordinariate is concerned it is important to remember that they are ordained as priests of the Latin Rite and therefore it is according to that Rite that they are ordained. In this particular circumstance patrimony does not come into it - it's the Latin Rite, in toto and without any patrimonial adaptation, that is employed.

quote:
Originally posted by churchgeek:
One was especially moving - the bishop kneels before the newly ordained priest and receives his blessing?!? Wow, that's beautiful. Is that the norm in the RC ordination liturgy? I've never been to one.

Yes, it is quite usual and, as Hart indicates is sometimes done after the Mass in the sacristy. I well remember Cardinal Hume kneeling before me and then kissing my hands, which he had just anointed, after I blessed him. In that instance, it was in the sacristy and not in the sanctuary - he was a rather restrained and unshowy person. His successors have adopted the custom of kneeling for the blessing in the sanctuary - usually during the final hymn and before the recessional procession.

In the scaristy afterwards, the other priest will usually line up for a blessing as well, and quite often sing Ad multo annos. This is a kind of anthem for the clergy of England, but is very much an "in" song. I'm afraid I could only find this recording of it (from 1:38 onwards). You can see the Pope can't quite make out what is going on or how to respond, as I think it's very much an English thing!

Posted by Triple Tiara (# 9556) on :

Sorry, Ad multos annos - not sure what happened to the s in my post above!

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