Ship of Fools: Ethiopian-Israeli women were given contraceptive shots without knowledge or consent.

Thread: Ethiopian-Israeli women were given contraceptive shots without knowledge or consent. Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by George Spigot (# 253) on :

Ethiopian women given contraceptive shots for years without their knowledge in Israel.

But maybe I shouldn't be angrily ranting about this. After all the stronger must dominate and not blend with the weaker, thus sacrificing his own greatness. Only the born weakling can view this as cruel.

[Finally fixed typo in the link, sorry but it was giving me the irrits every time I opened the thread. - orfeo, Hellhost]

[ 07. March 2013, 00:28: Message edited by: orfeo ]

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

By all means, rant away. Just as long as we recognise all the other times similar things have been done (as the linked report does note). When I worked in human rights I read some completely appalling stories of past practices in Australia and America, at least.

It's bloody disgusting to make decisions about something SO intimate and personal without consulting the person you're making the decision 'for'. And everyone knows damn well there's a problem doing it without consent, or they wouldn't lie about it to the women in the first place.

Posted by goperryrevs (# 13504) on :

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
By all means, rant away. Just as long as we recognise all the other times similar things have been done (as the linked report does note). When I worked in human rights I read some completely appalling stories of past practices in Australia and America, at least.

I believe in early 20th century the policy in the US was that 3 generations of 'retarded' people was enough for forced sterilisation, and read of one case where the evidence for the 3rd generation was a baby that looked a bit strange.

Posted by Rosa Winkel (# 11424) on :

Not that I know it's true or not, but it was suggested that these women actually wanted sterilisation as in their families they were expected to be mother-machines, but they couldn't say openly that they didn't want to be such.

In any case this article shows that the supposed events in Israel are just the tip of the iceberg of how little control some women have over their bodies in the world.

A friend on Facebook told me of this story a few weeks ago. Guess who he started comparing the Israelis with?

Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:
Guess who he started comparing the Israelis with?

When they're doing shit like this it's not exactly a big leap to make...

Posted by Yam-pk (# 12791) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:
Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:
Guess who he started comparing the Israelis with?
When they're doing shit like this it's not exactly a big leap to make...

Well, they haven't actually started rounding up and gassing the Palestinians yet (although there are hundreds in prision without trial or due process), but the similarities are getting too close for comfort in a lot of areas of action....

Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :

quote:
Originally posted by George Spigot:

But maybe I shouldn't be angrily ranting about this. After all the stronger must dominate and not blend with the weaker, thus sacrificing his own greatness. Only the born weakling can view this as cruel.

Such a Christian viewpoint.

Would totally throw Nietzsche out the window.

And I thought you were an atheist.

HA!

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

Evensnog - do you know what "irony" is? Hint - it's nothing like "bronzy" or "tinny".

Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :

Oh but you can only do irony if you know The Truth.

The evolutionary biologist would have no trouble promulgating a view of the "survival of the fittest".

And Nietzsche did so love the idea of a Superman.

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

"is" is not "ought", Eversnog. I'm pretty sure most evolutionary biologists know that.

Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :

Well one wonders where Richard Dawkins gets his morals from then.

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

From the same place every other bugger under the sun gets them - their own conscience, informed by cultural norms.

Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :

Viola!

Dawkins cant get away from Christianity.

Neither can George Spigot.

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

You play the Viola?

Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on :

quote:
Originally posted by goperryrevs:

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
By all means, rant away. Just as long as we recognise all the other times similar things have been done (as the linked report does note). When I worked in human rights I read some completely appalling stories of past practices in Australia and America, at least.
I believe in early 20th century the policy in the US was that 3 generations of 'retarded' people was enough for forced sterilisation, and read of one case where the evidence for the 3rd generation was a baby that looked a bit strange.

Without looking it up, and this is hell so do I have to? This is what I recall from reading about all of this over the years.

The 3 generations quote is Oliver Wendel Holmes, along the lines of "three generations of imbeciles is enough" and refers to a "Carrie Buck". Stephen Jay Gould in his book "Mismeasure of Man" discusses it extensively. I also remember the Kalikak family where the authorities actually retouched photos to make the people look more sinister and stupid.

Western Canadian provinces had laws on the books about eugenics until at least the 1960s if not longer and that Greatest Canadian, Tommy Douglas, was pro-eugenics, wrote a thesis about it, and in his time would have supported such, even as this is glossed over by many.

Israel's problem with this is that they are a half century out of date, nothing much more.

Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
You play the Viola?

Stupid french words.

I have a German friend called Viola.

Confuses me no end.

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
You play the Viola?

She also has the world's smallest violin.

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

quote:
Originally posted by goperryrevs:

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
By all means, rant away. Just as long as we recognise all the other times similar things have been done (as the linked report does note). When I worked in human rights I read some completely appalling stories of past practices in Australia and America, at least.
I believe in early 20th century the policy in the US was that 3 generations of 'retarded' people was enough for forced sterilisation, and read of one case where the evidence for the 3rd generation was a baby that looked a bit strange.

The worst case I read, or at least the one that really stuck in my mind, was of an intellectually disabled woman in America (just how disabled is a matter of debate - as discussed below) who, after getting married and trying to start a family, discovered that she had been sterilised some years earlier when she was told something like she was getting her appendix taken out.

Now, I don't about you, but a case like that makes me want to throw large objects at people. Because if a woman has the capacity to fall in love and get married, I'd say she's got the capacity to make decisions with her husband about starting a family. And she'd even made that decision, having no idea it was futile.

And if you feel the need to LIE to her about an operation, that's because you're aware that she's fully capable of understanding what an operation is and accepting it or not. Getting to her accept AN operation so you can do another one is proof positive that you think she has the mental capacity for consent.

There are cases of severe intellectual disability where there remains some controversy over whether a person has the capacity to understand the issues around their own fertility (a very, very nasty and tricky area of law that wasn't much fun to be involved in). But a woman who can get married, choose to have children and agree to an appendix operation? Sterilising such a woman without her knowledge is disgusting and outrageous.

Posted by Nicolemr (# 28) on :

Of course the real question is how true the story is.

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Nicolemr:
Of course the real question is how true the story is.

Not siding with one story or the other. Just noting that the source of this linked article is not one I would take without verification either.

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Nicolemr:
Of course the real question is how true the story is.

From that article (which is basically quoting someone else all the time):

quote:
Haaretz says the Ethiopian women were "coaxed" or "strongly convinced" to have the Depo-Provera shot, not forced.

Oh, so that's okay then. [Roll Eyes]

EDIT: Since when were we confined to one real question, anyway?

[ 06. March 2013, 06:26: Message edited by: orfeo ]

Posted by EtymologicalEvangelical (# 15091) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider
From the same place every other bugger under the sun gets them - their own conscience, informed by cultural norms.

So made up morals, in other words.

If so, then Israel is making up its own morals, and how it has treated these Ethiopian women is not necessarily wrong, because it's only 'wrong' in the eyes of those who have a different set of subjective morals.

But for some bizarre reason, this doesn't stop the subjective moralists from ranting away (like: "There is no objective morality, but I am still campaigning for the Pope to be arrested", which summarises neatly the viewpoint of a certain celebrated "professional atheist" prior to the now former Pope's visit to the UK).

[brick wall]

Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:

quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
You play the Viola?
She also has the world's smallest violin.

I always did love the Princess and the Pea

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

You were born to play a legume.

Posted by JoannaP (# 4493) on :

quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:

quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider
From the same place every other bugger under the sun gets them - their own conscience, informed by cultural norms.
So made up morals, in other words.

If so, then Israel is making up its own morals, and how it has treated these Ethiopian women is not necessarily wrong, because it's only 'wrong' in the eyes of those who have a different set of subjective morals.

I believe that, as a member of the UN, Israel should be at least aspiring to The Universal Declaration of Human Rights, which includes

quote:
Article 16.

(1) Men and women of full age, without any limitation due to race, nationality or religion, have the right to marry and to found a family. They are entitled to equal rights as to marriage, during marriage and at its dissolution.

No need for messy subjective morals when we have international law.

Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
You were born to play a legume.

True story.

Low GI.

It's why my trumpet is rusting in its case.

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :

[other Hell thread related tangent]

You can probably assume safely that they wouldn't be put up for membership of the David Ben-Gurion Golf Club either. [Biased]

[/other Hell thread related tangent]

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:

quote:
Originally posted by Nicolemr:
Of course the real question is how true the story is.
From that article (which is basically quoting someone else all the time):

quote:
Haaretz says the Ethiopian women were "coaxed" or "strongly convinced" to have the Depo-Provera shot, not forced.
Oh, so that's okay then.

EDIT: Since when were we confined to one real question, anyway?

No one forced those tried in front of Judge Jeffreys to plead guilty either. That didn't make much difference either.

Posted by deano (# 12063) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
[other Hell thread related tangent]

You can probably assume safely that they wouldn't be put up for membership of the David Ben-Gurion Golf Club either.

[/other Hell thread related tangent]

Although if their handicap were low enough to make them a serious threat to the local league rivals... maybe... nah, you're right.

Posted by George Spigot (# 253) on :

@EE

Is this another argument from adverse consequences response?

Posted by George Spigot (# 253) on :

Actually EE let's look at it a different way. On a very general level I think that causing harm is wrong. On a very general level I'm going to assume that you also think causing harm is wrong. In which case we share a viewpoint. Now we disagree as to what right and wrong may mean and where they come from but maybe that discussion could be had in another thread and we could use this one to argue the rights and wrongs of this particular situation.

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
No one forced those tried in front of Judge Jeffreys to plead guilty either. That didn't make much difference either.

Welsh historical references are lost on me without a bit of help from Google, and even then they're difficult. Just sayin'.

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

Not sure Wales had much to do with the Bloody Assizes, Orfeo.

I'm not sure if even Monmouth (where the Duke of Monmouth wasn't born and had no particular connection with, being the bastard son of Charles II) was in Wales at the time.

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Not sure Wales had much to do with the Bloody Assizes, Orfeo.

I'm not sure if even Monmouth (where the Duke of Monmouth wasn't born and had no particular connection with, being the bastard son of Charles II) was in Wales at the time.

Judge Jeffreys was born near Wrexham. AFAICT that is the sole Welsh connection.

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

Yes, right, thank you. Between this tangent and Evensong's delight in awful wordplay, a thread on a topic that is thoroughly worthy of a bit of Hellish ranting is becoming a total train wreck.

Posted by Matt Black (# 2210) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Not sure Wales had much to do with the Bloody Assizes, Orfeo.

I'm not sure if even Monmouth (where the Duke of Monmouth wasn't born and had no particular connection with, being the bastard son of Charles II) was in Wales at the time.

Not until 1966 I believe

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Yes, right, thank you. Between this tangent and Evensong's delight in awful wordplay, a thread on a topic that is thoroughly worthy of a bit of Hellish ranting is becoming a total train wreck.

Quite right, fellow host.

I wouldn't be surprised if many potential posters are so appalled that they are unable to post constructively, so Tangents'R'Us.

FWIW, it wasn't until 1975 that Sweden abandoned its eugenics programme, which forceably sterilised some 'mental patients'. That label was quite broad and pretty vague and (I have heard) could have led to me never fathering children, had I been a Swede.

Still, the Swedes are predominantly a blond/e, tall, blue-eyed, civilised and beautiful people. I expect Israel is trying to do something similar.

Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Yes, right, thank you. Between this tangent and Evensong's delight in awful wordplay

You started it.

*sulks*

Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :

Fuuuuuuuuuuuu****** it's quiet in hell these days.

One post in eleven hours. And that by Karl.

*sulks again*

[ 07. March 2013, 11:17: Message edited by: Evensong ]

Posted by Justinian (# 5357) on :

quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
So made up morals, in other words.

Tell me, are you really as stupid and lacking in empathy and understanding of the reasoning processes of others as your posting would indicate? Or are you merely trolling because it's funny?

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