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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: How virulently anti-Catholic is this place?
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loggats
Shipmate
# 17643
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Posted
I'm still very new here, and didn't expect everyone on an ecumenical forum to fall about in rapt admiration for the One True Church ( ![[Razz]](tongue.gif) ) but there does seem to be more than a little shade thrown at the merest mention of Catholicism. Obviously different Christian groups have different ideas about faith, but does that really mean things have to become catty and rude?
One of the reasons I looked forward to joining in here was the sheer variety of opinions and attitudes. Maybe I've got to get a thicker skin and I "ain't seen nothing yet" - either way, I think the kind of comments appearing in the thread about Pope Francis' statement re. "Jesus not outside the Church" weren't particularly suitable.
Nobody looks good if all you read is one of their decontextualised comments, and if you've already decided that whatever he says is bunk there doesn't seem much point in having a chat about it.
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"He brought me into the banqueting house, and his banner over me was love."
Posts: 245 | Registered: Apr 2013
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
ITTWACW! ITTWACW!
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
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loggats
Shipmate
# 17643
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Posted
IKR?
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"He brought me into the banqueting house, and his banner over me was love."
Posts: 245 | Registered: Apr 2013
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StevHep
Shipmate
# 17198
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Posted
Comment is Free at the Guardian effortlessly outdoes this Forum for sheer vitriolic anti-Catholicism, often combined with a near perfect ignorance of what the Church actually believes. Here there is less ignorance which is something.
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My Blog Catholic Scot
http://catholicscot.blogspot.co.uk/
@stevhep on Twitter
Posts: 241 | From: Exeter | Registered: Jul 2012
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
We're pretty ecumenical in our muckspreading. Evangelicals and New Frontiers-type charismatics could tell you that. Fundamentalists have a hard time. And then there's the Dawkinsite atheists ..
The prevailing ethos is unrest, which is worth remembering.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
quote:
posted by loggats
Obviously different Christian groups have different ideas about faith, but does that really mean things have to become catty and rude?
"Different Christian groups"??? I think you mean churches: because that is what most of us belong to.
For myself, one of the rudest things I've ever heard was from a man now an RC Archbishop who, when properly introduced to a senior CofE cleric he'd assumed was RC, responded with "Oh, I thought you were a real priest" ![[Mad]](angryfire.gif)
And before you try the old line about he was joking - no he wasn't, it was not that sort of gathering.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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loggats
Shipmate
# 17643
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Posted
Well. If he wasn't making a crass joke he was being very undiplomatic. I guess he just couldn't get Pope Leo XIII's 1896 bull out of his mind, where all Anglican ordinations are declared "absolutely null and utterly void". I think Pope Benedict (while Cardinal Ratzinger and Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith)affirmed this understanding.
So while he was certainly being insensitive and quite rude, he wasn't altogether wrong. Which isn't to say there's not a lot different Christians can't learn from one another - I've found the writings of Dr Rowan Williams especially interesting and know a lot of Catholics who share my admiration of his work.
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"He brought me into the banqueting house, and his banner over me was love."
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by loggats:
So while he was certainly being insensitive and quite rude, he wasn't altogether wrong.
There is a vital qualifying clause missing from that sentence. The one that says "from a Catholic point of view."
Because as far as the Anglican churches are concerned, our orders are perfectly valid, and my priest is just as much a priest, in exactly the same sense, as yours.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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loggats
Shipmate
# 17643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by loggats:
So while he was certainly being insensitive and quite rude, he wasn't altogether wrong.
There is a vital qualifying clause missing from that sentence. The one that says "from a Catholic point of view."
Because as far as the Anglican churches are concerned, our orders are perfectly valid, and my priest is just as much a priest, in exactly the same sense, as yours.
Definitely, "from a Catholic point of view".
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"He brought me into the banqueting house, and his banner over me was love."
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
@ loggats
Are you for real?
I ask because respect for your clergy is one thing but really! ![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
Trying saying you're part of the Calvinist Club around here. The knee-jerks you get against predestination will knock your head off.
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
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loggats
Shipmate
# 17643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
@ loggats
Are you for real?
I ask because respect for your clergy is one thing but really!
Not sure what you mean - I'm fairly real, most of the time.
Most Catholics believe that a high level of respect is due to our priests because they participate in the one priesthood of Christ and in their ecclesial service, it is Christ himself who is present to his Church.
That's partly why a priest who fails to live up to the huge responsibilities implicit in his vocation is so pitiable - but that doesn't make the office (and the Person) he figures any less awesome.
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"He brought me into the banqueting house, and his banner over me was love."
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Barnabas62: We're pretty ecumenical in our muckspreading. Evangelicals and New Frontiers-type charismatics could tell you that. Fundamentalists have a hard time. And then there's the Dawkinsite atheists ..
I feel left out ![[Waterworks]](graemlins/bawling.gif)
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
quote:
posted by loggats
Well. If he wasn't making a crass joke he was being very undiplomatic. I guess he just couldn't get Pope Leo XIII's 1896 bull out of his mind, where all Anglican ordinations are declared "absolutely null and utterly void". I think Pope Benedict (while Cardinal Ratzinger and Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith)affirmed this understanding.
So while he was certainly being insensitive and quite rude, he wasn't altogether wrong. Which isn't to say there's not a lot different Christians can't learn from one another - I've found the writings of Dr Rowan Williams especially interesting and know a lot of Catholics who share my admiration of his work.
1. It was certainly crass, was not a joke and was most definitely rude. To put it the other way around, how do you suppose (for the sake of argument) a Proto-Notary Apostolic who was Administrator of a Cathedral would feel if they were told they were not a "proper priest" by a complete stranger?
2. Knowing the RC prelate in question I can tell you the last thing on his mind would have been Leo XIII's bull.
3. Can I point out that a pope declaring something "absolutely null and utterly void" doesn't make it so. We've all heard about speaking ex-Cathedra and the doctrine of infallibility - but these things are only recognised by YOUR church, not by all the others, and not by Our Lord, either - unless you can point me to the bit where Jesus declared that priests in a religion that at that time didn't exist would have a leader who could decide on something and have the authority for it not to be questioned?
4. Yes, Cardinal Ratzinger did come out with something along the lines you mention - but the "understanding" is only "understood" by Roman Catholics, not by the rest of Christendom.
5. He was altogether wrong, and rude and insensitive - but that was absolutely typical of the man, and I'm told his promotion hasn't changed him at all.
6. Many of us were very happy with Rowan, although he was given a torrid time of it over some issues.
I think it does come down to respect: its unfortunate that your church from time-to-time shows scant respect for us, our church, our christianity or our priests. You see, by saying that they consider our priesthood "absolutely null and utterly void" they show no respect whatsoever, either to the Church (of England), our priests, or us: the correct word for this crass rudeness is un-Christian.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
I don't think you'll find the Mystery Worship reports of Catholic churches anti-Catholic. That said, we don't hesitate to criticize that which, in our opinion, deserves criticism. Did somebody say folk mass . . . ?
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
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Ariston
Insane Unicorn
# 10894
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
I don't think you'll find the Mystery Worship reports of Catholic churches anti-Catholic. That said, we don't hesitate to criticize that which, in our opinion, deserves criticism. Did somebody say folk mass . . . ?
Or liturgical dance.
Or Wee Plastic Cuppies.
Or even a 3:1 GIN:vermouth martini.
If nobody's claimed to be a persecuted religious group here on the Ship, it's because there aren't enough people of that group on board to really get a good "help, help, we're being repressed, come witness the violence inherent in the system!" grievance going.
That, and I don't think anyone really cares enough to bother repressing...whatever it is I am (the label changes every Sunday). It may be out of pity to my cochurchers—having me as one of them is probably repression enough—but so it goes.
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“Therefore, let it be explained that nowhere are the proprieties quite so strictly enforced as in men’s colleges that invite young women guests, especially over-night visitors in the fraternity houses.” Emily Post, 1937.
Posts: 6849 | From: The People's Republic of Balcones | Registered: Jan 2006
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Dark Knight
Super Zero
# 9415
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by loggats:
So while he was certainly being insensitive and quite rude, he wasn't altogether wrong.
Well, with this you've lost my respect. Good luck with the rest of the denizens.
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So don't ever call me lucky
You don't know what I done, what it was, who I lost, or what it cost me - A B Original: I C U
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Love is as strong as death (Song of Solomon 8:6).
Posts: 2958 | From: Beyond the Yellow Brick Road | Registered: Apr 2005
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by loggats:
I'm still very new here, and didn't expect everyone on an ecumenical forum to fall about in rapt admiration for the One True Church ( )
Many here do, but they can't agree on which is the One True Church ;-)
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
pfft
Deep down everybody knows the Anglican church is the one true church.
We just put up with the rest of you pretenders because we know you and your clergy will burn in hell eventually.
Amen
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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comet
Snowball in Hell
# 10353
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Posted
I hate all you fuckers. equal opportunity.
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Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin
Posts: 17024 | From: halfway between Seduction and Peril | Registered: Sep 2005
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StevHep
Shipmate
# 17198
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
The knee-jerks you get against predestination will knock your head off.
That sort of thing is inevitable.
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My Blog Catholic Scot
http://catholicscot.blogspot.co.uk/
@stevhep on Twitter
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by loggats:
I'm still very new here, and didn't expect everyone on an ecumenical forum to fall about in rapt admiration for the One True Church ( ) but there does seem to be more than a little shade thrown at the merest mention of Catholicism. Obviously different Christian groups have different ideas about faith, but does that really mean things have to become catty and rude?
One of the reasons I looked forward to joining in here was the sheer variety of opinions and attitudes. Maybe I've got to get a thicker skin and I "ain't seen nothing yet" - either way, I think the kind of comments appearing in the thread about Pope Francis' statement re. "Jesus not outside the Church" weren't particularly suitable.
Nobody looks good if all you read is one of their decontextualised comments, and if you've already decided that whatever he says is bunk there doesn't seem much point in having a chat about it.
"...catty and rude?"
“It is not possible to find Jesus outside the Church” Actually, many people who commented on the homily were generous enough to posit that maybe he just meant Christians in Christian community. I doubt Pope Francis would thank them for that. When a pope speaks of the Church, I've never known one who didn't mean the Roman Catholic Church.
Okay, the leader of your church spits in the eye of every self-identifying Christian on the planet who is not Roman Catholic by saying that no one may find Jesus outside the Church, that "If we are not "sheep of Jesus," faith does not some (sic) to us. It is a rosewater faith, a faith without substance", and our comments are not suitable?
I read the entire Vatican transcript linked and I see no reason not to believe that what I think I read and understood is exactly what he meant. If he didn't mean what we non-RCs understand him to say, he is too poor a communicator to be Pope.
I don't agree with all stands of the RCC, but in general I respect the faith. His statement showed no respect.
Compare John Paul II: quote:
Although the Catholic Church knows that it has received the fullness of the means of salvation, it rejoices when other Christian communities join her in preaching the Gospel. This is the proper context for understanding the Council's teaching that the Church of Christ "subsists" in the Catholic Church (cf. Lumen Gentium 8; Unitatis Redintegratio 4).
The Church, precisely because it is Catholic, is open to dialogue with all other Christians, with the followers of non-Christian religions, and also with all people of good will, as John XXIII and Paul VI frequently said. Lumen Gentium explains convincingly and in depth the meaning of "people of good will." The Church wants to preach the Gospel together with all who believe in Christ. It wants to point out to all the path to eternal salvation, the fundamental principles of life in the Spirit and in truth. Crossing the Threshold of Hope~ see "Is Only Rome Right?"
Yes, he firmly believed that the Roman Catholic Church is the source of all true Christianity in unbroken lineage from its inception, but he also looked for the positive in other people of goodwill. He honored those who preach the Gospel whether formally inside or outside the RCC. Pope Francis evidently doesn't.
Tough titties if you think what I just said was "rude and catty".
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by StevHep:
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
The knee-jerks you get against predestination will knock your head off.
That sort of thing is inevitable.
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Planned before the foundation of the world no doubt
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
I think that some Christians are very quick to take offence at what other Christians believe. I've never really quite understood it myself. Anglicans are usually the worst at this (sorry, Anglicans, but you are).
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by StevHep:
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
The knee-jerks you get against predestination will knock your head off.
That sort of thing is inevitable.
Planned before the foundation of the world no doubt
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by StevHep:
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
The knee-jerks you get against predestination will knock your head off.
That sort of thing is inevitable.
Planned before the foundation of the world no doubt
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by loggats:
So while he was certainly being insensitive and quite rude, he wasn't altogether wrong.
The irony is choking.
Also, the Plot™ doesn't get much stick except from certain Catholics (who know who they are). You Protties and atheists and such need to get cracking.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
I think that some Christians are very quick to take offence at what other Christians believe. I've never really quite understood it myself. Anglicans are usually the worst at this (sorry, Anglicans, but you are).
Probably because those things include being obnoxious about Anglicanism.
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
I think that some Christians are very quick to take offence at what other Christians believe. I've never really quite understood it myself. Anglicans are usually the worst at this (sorry, Anglicans, but you are).
Probably because those things include being obnoxious about Anglicanism.
What do you mean "obnoxious"?
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by loggats:
[QUOTE]That's partly why a priest who fails to live up to the huge responsibilities implicit in his vocation is so pitiable - but that doesn't make the office (and the Person) he figures any less awesome.
Every time a priest fails to live up to his responsibilities he diminishes his office, not just in the eyes of the world but in God's too. Haven't you got it - the true church (as you call it) is a laughing stock at best and viewed as sinister at worst. Most of us in "false" churches (as defined by you) are being tainted in the same way - that is, by association. Thanks a bunch, "true church" our work is hard enough as it is.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
@ Ad Orientem
"Anglicans are usually the worst at this (sorry Anglicans but you are)"
That's a blanket condemnation of an entire group based on your own experience. All generalisations are wrong, including that one. And when they label a group as "the worst", that's an obnoxious labelling.
Try this one one for size. "When it comes to expressing the inferiority of Protestants, the Orthodox are much worse even than the Catholics".
I don't believe that, BTW. But if I did and said so, it would be obnoxious.
[ 24. April 2013, 06:32: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
[QUOTE] I think it does come down to respect: its unfortunate that your church from time-to-time shows scant respect for us, our church, our christianity or our priests. You see, by saying that they consider our priesthood "absolutely null and utterly void" they show no respect whatsoever, either to the Church (of England), our priests, or us: the correct word for this crass rudeness is un-Christian.
I agree. But, let's be fait L'Organist - it's hardly suprising since the RCC doesn't respect huge numbers of the vulnerable adults who they've been in "contact" with over the years.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
Besides which, how can we english (even if we're membetrs of the true church [RCC]) follow a man who is from Argentina and who fails to conform our sovereignty in the Falklands? The "true church" isn't the big question with Frankie (following Benny and joining him), but whether he's prepared to naysay the junta of the country he lived in? I think that like Benny, Frankie, has a few shadows in his past that the sun would do well to shine on .....
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
@ Barnabas62
Hastens to add
I don't believe the converse either, or that both groups are "each as bad as the other".
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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QLib
Bad Example
# 43
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dark Knight:
quote:
Originally posted by loggats:
So while he was certainly being insensitive and quite rude, he wasn't altogether wrong.
Well, with this you've lost my respect. Good luck with the rest of the denizens.
Well, quite.
And herein, loggats, is probably the root of your problem with the ship. You seem to think that, when Catholics are rude to/about other churches it's a bit naughty, but sort-of excusable (because they're right), whereas when people from other churches are rude to Catholics, the offence is compounded by their being wrong. Oh dear.
And I'm a bit puzzled by your comments looking forward to joining but then apparently not knowing what to expect. Exactly how long did you spend looking forward? Did any of that looking involve actually hanging about and reading stuff? ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
Posts: 8913 | From: Page 28 | Registered: May 2001
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by QLib:
Exactly how long did you spend looking forward? Did any of that looking involve actually hanging about and reading stuff?
Some jump straight in, some lurk for a while, some lurk for years before boarding - nothing wrong with any of these.
But, lurking or aboard, it is probably a good idea to hang around a while before shouting ITTWACW!
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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The Midge
Shipmate
# 2398
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by comet:
I hate all you fuckers. equal opportunity.
All of us heretics get to stew in the same pot. Tastey.
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Some days you are the fly.
On other days you are the windscreen.
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by comet:
I hate all you fuckers. equal opportunity.
I can thole the Maybes and even the Probables. It's the ones who are Right that I can't stand - albeit with an open, tolerant, inclusive sort of loathing, y'ken.
[ 24. April 2013, 08:35: Message edited by: Firenze ]
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
Okay, the leader of your church spits in the eye of every self-identifying Christian on the planet who is not Roman Catholic by saying that no one may find Jesus outside the Church, that "If we are not "sheep of Jesus," faith does not some (sic) to us. It is a rosewater faith, a faith without substance", and our comments are not suitable?
Well, quite. loggats appears to be just one more in a long line of fuckwits who think that the rest of us are being rude because we don't kowtow to whatever the Pope says. What an asshat.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
quote:
posted by Exclamation Mark
Besides which, how can we english (even if we're membetrs of the true church [RCC]) follow a man who is from Argentina and who fails to conform our sovereignty in the Falklands? The "true church" isn't the big question with Frankie (following Benny and joining him), but whether he's prepared to naysay the junta of the country he lived in? I think that like Benny, Frankie, has a few shadows in his past that the sun would do well to shine on .....
Even if he can't bring himself to confirm our sovereignty, how about he confirms that the people of the Falklands have a right to express their views on how and by whom they are governed. Of course, that would mean accepting that the Falklands, by an overwhelming majority, have decided they'd rather be at the mercy of Whitehall than the crew in BA.
As for Frankie's views about the junta, it doesn't look good. Appealed to directly by one of the Mother's of the Plaza de Mayo for help to find either her child or her grandchild, he didn't want to know.
He now claims he didn't know anything about the disappearances of the young people, or the stealing by the regime of their babies, until 1985. If this statement is true then the RCC has elected as pope someone whose undertanding of current affairs to do with his own country was a good 5 years out of date.
In the past 7 days he's finally issued a statement saying he "shares the grief" of the Mothers - though quite how a childless celibate can know how a bereaved parent robbed of their grandchild feels is beyond me.
The RCC hierarchy in Argentina, including Francis, has also been conspicuously inactive in trying to find out what happened to its own priests who the military junta "disappeared".
Similarly, the RCC was conspicuously unhelpful when the family of Dagmar Hagelin appealed for help in finding her - it is now known she too was "disappeared", despite being a foreign national. As Provincial for the Jesuits Francis would have been made aware of this request - and even if he wasn't the Js have their own independent worldwide organisation which would have allowed him access to news reports on his own country which gave a truer picture than that available from the terrorised Argentinian press.
When considering the latest three popes its beginning to look as if the former member of the Hitler Jugend has the most transparent and unclouded past. ![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif)
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by StevHep:
Comment is Free at the Guardian effortlessly outdoes this Forum for sheer vitriolic anti-Catholicism, often combined with a near perfect ignorance of what the Church actually believes. Here there is less ignorance which is something.
Well quite. Though I love the Guardian deeply, it is imbued with an unthinking liberalism which can't understand faith or commitment (with honourable exceptions such as Giles Fraser). ISTM that the Ship - though crewed predominantly by Christians - shares a lot of this liberal agenda. Especially its more 'catholic' Anglican shipmates: there is a snobbish superiority complex among many 'establishment' and middle-class Anglicans towards what they still sometimes call the Italian Mission.
Having a foot in most of these camps (well, friends if not a foot in the RCC) I wish we could all grow up.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
@ L'organist
Well, there's a thing! Godwin's Law is confirmed yet again.
[I actually posted a Host warning then had to delete it because I remembered just in time that this was Hell.]
All any incidence of Godwin's Law demonstrates is a kind of hatred of someone, or some group.
News at 11. The Pope is Catholic; he came from Argentina. Which of course justifies any kind of speculative derogatory bullshit about him and his behaviour. Including lumping him with Adolf and tossing in JP2 and Benny for good measure.
I know this is Hell, so a sense of proportion isn't really necessary. But bullshit smells the same here as it does anywhere else.
So does hatred.
[ 24. April 2013, 09:28: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
I think that some Christians are very quick to take offence at what other Christians believe. I've never really quite understood it myself. Anglicans are usually the worst at this (sorry, Anglicans, but you are).
Probably because those things include being obnoxious about Anglicanism.
Just because you might not agree with what Roman Catholics believe about the Church and Anglican orders, for instance, it doesn't necessarily make them obnoxious or rude or whatever. I mean, get over it. If you're an Anglican what Roman Catholics believe matters not one jot concerning what you believe about your own orders, does it? If the answer is no, then what's the problem?
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
Okay, the leader of your church spits in the eye of every self-identifying Christian on the planet who is not Roman Catholic by saying that no one may find Jesus outside the Church, that "If we are not "sheep of Jesus," faith does not some (sic) to us. It is a rosewater faith, a faith without substance", and our comments are not suitable?
Well, quite. loggats appears to be just one more in a long line of fuckwits who think that the rest of us are being rude because we don't kowtow to whatever the Pope says. What an asshat.
As I've just posted on the main thread, it is very unlikely that the pope intended any grief to Protestants/Anglicans. This was not about them. And they should get used to not being on the agenda, because the RCC is at this point in time mostly busy with sorting out its internal affairs. This includes missions, in spite of their outward orientation: without the conviction that the RCC is precisely what Christ asked Christians to bring to the world, there will be no zealous RC missionaries trying to do exactly that.
As for the anti-Catholicism on this site, it has rarely much to do with matters of faith. As with the secular world, it is in truth mostly about morals and power. The basic exchange is this:
Depraved individualist: Please become liberal Anglican so that I do not feel condemned by authority in my sins any longer.
RCC: Uhhmm, sorry, but no. Perhaps you could repent instead?
Depraved individualist: Die, medieval scum!
With a few exceptions, that's pretty much the basic motivation for vitriolic anti-RC rants on SoF. It's just too predictable and boring to worry about.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
The basic exchange is this:
Depraved individualist: Please become liberal Anglican so that I do not feel condemned by authority in my sins any longer.
RCC: Uhhmm, sorry, but no. Perhaps you could repent instead?
Depraved individualist: Die, medieval scum!
With a few exceptions, that's pretty much the basic motivation for vitriolic anti-RC rants on SoF. It's just too predictable and boring to worry about.
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif) I don't often agree with IngoB but this is spot on!
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
Barnabas: I don't hate RCs.
- My mother was RC
- I was baptised RC
- more than half my family are RC
- each of my children has an RC Godparent (though they are rather neglectful...)
But I think it is right for anyone to question an organisation that sets its face against free thought and free speech for its members, which is consistent in re-writing its own history as it suits them at the time, which has a doctrine of lying as acceptable behaviour (mental reservation), and with a record of ignoring human rights violations right under its nose.
As an Anglican I'm used to people rubbishing my church, its leaders, its people, etc, etc, etc: but if Rome is going to dish it out with crass re-statements it must expect the rest of the church to answer back - its called family argument.
My Orthodox friend has just reminded me of 2 things:
1. He considers all non-Orthodox to be heretical;
2. Historically the Greek Orthodox have considered 2 denominations so obnoxious/dangerous that they've been able to have passed into Greek civil law that those 2 may not "proselytise or promote" themselves in any way: those 2 are Roman Catholicism and Jehovah's Witnesses.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Laurelin
Shipmate
# 17211
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Posted
Virulently anti-Catholic?
No. I've read some pretty snotty remarks on the Ship about Protestants, conservative evangelicals and charismatics. ('They don't matter ... they're only schismatics ...' etc. Charming.)
There are devout Catholics on the Ship who defend their faith with vigour. Just as there are rationalists and sceptics on the Ship who criticise all branches of the Christian Church - not just Catholicism - with vigour.
In other words, as Barnabas said: no Christian group in particular gets special privileges or treatment on the Ship. ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
I know this, cuz I lurked.
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"I fear that to me Siamese cats belong to the fauna of Mordor." J.R.R. Tolkien
Posts: 545 | From: The Shire | Registered: Jul 2012
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Laurelin
Shipmate
# 17211
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Posted
And also! There is Ecclesiantics.
Which is overwhelmingly Catholic, Orthodox and High Church Anglican in flavour. This low church chick doesn't understand half of what anyone is going on about in there.
But it's very interesting and informative. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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"I fear that to me Siamese cats belong to the fauna of Mordor." J.R.R. Tolkien
Posts: 545 | From: The Shire | Registered: Jul 2012
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