Thread: Why should the devil have all the best death metal tunes? Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.


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Posted by Sandemaniac (# 12829) on :
 
The BBC are running this story at the moment. I'm intrigued by its growing out of a genre of music that a lot of people associate with Satanism. What do other people feel about alternative forms of churchgoing?

AG
(I can't see another thread on this - if I've been beaten to it, please move appropriately!)
 

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Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
I'd just started one in Eccles,
 

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Posted by Alaric the Goth (# 511) on :
 
The question is, "how uncomfortbale would a hypothetical fan of folk-rock, with, say, the initials T and K in some combination, feel fitting into a church where lots of folk liked death metal?"
 

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Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
Probably very well. It would presumably depend on how loud the music is and the degree to which it permeates the services, and to what degree the congregation is accepting of all comers rather than those who conform to a particular sub-culture.

From what I'm led to understand, the answers as far as one of the churches mentioned in the article is concerned are (a) not very, (b) not all that much; other genres are in use, and (c) extremely.
 

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Posted by IngoB (# 8700) on :
 
So, how is this different from the regular Protestant programming? "Make them feel at home in church." Different target group, same method, same inevitable fail...
 

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Posted by Matt Black (# 2210) on :
 
Why inevitable fail? And how is it different from, say, the idea of a folk Mass?
 

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Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by IngoB:
So, how is this different from the regular Protestant programming? "Make them feel at home in church." Different target group, same method, same inevitable fail...

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quote:

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I'd just started one in Eccles,

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I was going to add it to the Hell music thread, but found it had just been closed.
 

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Posted by fletcher christian (# 13919) on :
 
One of the key elements of metal is surely to do with angst, rage, frustration and a good old dose of testosterone? Any Christian stuff I've heard often sounds at odds and from the linked BBC article on the other thread it looks like a cheap corporate branding, but maybe thats me being hyper critical and unfair. This on the other hand is somewhat interesting and along a similar vein, but has a slightly different approach
 

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Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
From what I understand, the OotBS has its origins within the Death Metal scene, and lots of members, imagery and decor that's in keeping with that, but has moved beyond being restricted to that particular genre. In particular, it seems to do particularly well with families with children, despite having no dedicated "children's work".
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
There's nothing new here. There've been Cowboy Churches in the Mid-West using Country & Western music, various Metal churches in the US too - I remember seeing some on the telly about 20 years ago now.

There have even been some Elvis churches and there's a Jazz one with Coltrane as its patron saint.

These things crop up from time to time.


 

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Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
There's nothing new here. There've been Cowboy Churches in the Mid-West using Country & Western music, various Metal churches in the US too - I remember seeing some on the telly about 20 years ago now.

There have even been some Elvis churches and there's a Jazz one with Coltrane as its patron saint.

These things crop up from time to time.

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quote:

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One of the key elements of metal is surely to do with angst, rage, frustration and a good old dose of testosterone?

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So... just like the Psalms, then?
 

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Posted by Lord Jestocost (# 12909) on :
 
An instinctive stumbling block for me would be reconciling statements like "The more dark and twisted the better" with Philippians 4.8. But I'm aware that's probably just my sheltered upbringing, and any Christian ministry should be judged by its fruit rather than its self-definition. If this is making disciples then may their amps ever be set to 11.
 

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Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
Dunno about the Psalms, but it describes me pretty well.

The Rage, Angst and Frustration bits anyway. You'd have to ask Mrs Backslider about the testosterone.
 

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Posted by markporter (# 4276) on :
 
There are so many different priorities to juggle with questions like this:

- What kind of church community is being created and who is welcome?
- What kind of subjectivities and forms of expression is that congregation trying to encourage and why?
- Are there any kinds of meaning in the music inappropriate to the church gathering, if so is there a way of transforming/redeeming something appropriately?
- How does the music relate to the kinds of things that churchgoers are used to and comfortable with? Are there ways of engaging those not normally at home in this environment so that they find a way in?
- How important is it to welcome the musics (or aspects of the musics) of churchgoers' (and non churchgoers) regular lives in order to fully welcome them and all they represent into worship?

I think we're often too quick to adopt something wholesale without trying to engage with what it represents and how it or us might be transformed in the process of welcoming it into the life of the church.

So, I think that it could be incredibly important for the church to engage with death metal, but that means actually taking the effort to deeply engage rather than simply saying yes or no to it.
 

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Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by markporter:
There are so many different priorities to juggle with questions like this:

- What kind of church community is being created and who is welcome?
- What kind of subjectivities and forms of expression is that congregation trying to encourage and why?
- Are there any kinds of meaning in the music inappropriate to the church gathering, if so is there a way of transforming/redeeming something appropriately?
- How does the music relate to the kinds of things that churchgoers are used to and comfortable with? Are there ways of engaging those not normally at home in this environment so that they find a way in?
- How important is it to welcome the musics (or aspects of the musics) of churchgoers' (and non churchgoers) regular lives in order to fully welcome them and all they represent into worship?

I think we're often too quick to adopt something wholesale without trying to engage with what it represents and how it or us might be transformed in the process of welcoming it into the life of the church.

So, I think that it could be incredibly important for the church to engage with death metal, but that means actually taking the effort to deeply engage rather than simply saying yes or no to it.

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I have sufficient knowledge of the set up to be able to address some of these questions.

As does the church's website at http://www.theorderoftheblacksheep.com/

1. a Christian community of whoever wants to be part of it.

2. can you unpack the question for thicko scientists like me who don't do long humanities type words?

3. much of the music used in services is actually instrumental. Where it's lyrical, (a) it mostly isn't actually death metal - a range of genres is employed, and (b) yes, it's appropriate.

4. it's certainly no more alien to regular conventional churchgoers than conventional church music is to much of the population. It's not like there's wall to wall death metal at high volume. I think the article overdoes the "death metal" bit. It's not a heavy metal church. It is a church for people alienated by conventional church culture; the pioneer minister happened to be a death metal musician and therefore that's the alienated subculture he knows best and how it began.

5. it's more about the people who form the community using artistic (i.e. musical) forms that they can relate to. Trying to second guess what other people might like isn't a brilliant idea.
 

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Posted by deano (# 12063) on :
 
Everyone knows that blues is the real “Devil’s music”.

That metal rubbish is just kids playing around. Some of those old blues guys would scare them witless.

Altogether now…

Going down to the crossroads, tried to flag a ride…
 

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Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
Should add to answer 1 - "Yes, even Deano. As long as he behaves himself"
 

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Posted by fletcher christian (# 13919) on :
 
Robert Johnson sold his soul to the devil to be able to play a guitar that way; and Antonio Stradavari before him with his violin!

Jokes aside, I think it does raise an important question about welcome in churches which has been hinted at further up thread. If we go down the route of churches catering for differing groups it can create little islands of like minded and can possibly dissolve community which I think has to do with how we understand and cope with difference. Seems to me that this is one of the greatest challenges facing the church today in many ways, and groups like this may be a symptom of the sickness.
 

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Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
The title and thrust of the article is unfortunate, in a way. The OthBS does not cater to a group - or rather it does, but that group is a diverse collection having in common only being hacked off/rejected by/weirded out by conventional church offerings.

It's probably no secret by now that I'm one of the OotBS' regular attenders. So I can report that, for example, last Sunday's recorded music ranged from ambient electro (albeit with a vaguely metally tonality) to chant (I unfortunately was put in mind of the monks singing "Pie Jesu" in Holy Grail and nearly got the giggles); I don't recall any death metal.
 

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Posted by moron (# 206) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by deano:
That metal rubbish is just kids playing around. Some of those old blues guys would scare them witless.

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbWCiWnNCAQ

Arguably should have made the best 30.


 

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Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by fletcher christian:
Robert Johnson sold his soul to the devil to be able to play a guitar that way; and Antonio Stradavari before him with his violin!

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Not him. That rumour was about another Italian fiddler with a long name ending in "i". Feel free to Google for enlightenment
 

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Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on :
 
Pat Boone covers Ozzy

The lyrics, when clearly enunciated, actually contain a bit of social commentary that many Christians would find agreeable, if slightly trite. The usual bemoaning of modern social pressures, media manipulation etc.

Something I've noticed is that most of the really iconic "satanic" metal lyrics don't praise Satan, they just focus on him. The narrator of Iron Maiden's Number Of The Beast, for example, isn't pleased by the diabolical things he witnesses, in fact he wants to stop them.

[ 14. February 2013, 12:59: Message edited by: Stetson ]
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
I can see your point Karl, but I'm still snoring ...



But it is an issue. As both Fletcher and yourself have identified. I'm still looking for a niche church. A grumpy-old-git-who-has-seen-it-all-before-friendly church.
 

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Posted by IngoB (# 8700) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Matt Black:
Why inevitable fail? And how is it different from, say, the idea of a folk Mass?

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quote:

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Originally posted by IngoB:

quote:

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Originally posted by Matt Black:
Why inevitable fail? And how is it different from, say, the idea of a folk Mass?

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For something to be holy it must be hagos (Greek) / sacer (Latin), i.e., a matter of religious awe, as well as hosios (Greek) / sancitus (Latin), i.e., sanctioned by God. The more "everyday" or "normal" or "according to typical taste" one tries to make a religious gathering, the less holy it will become. And while I do mean this in a religious sense, one can say this on purely psychological grounds, without believing in any of it. This is just not how humans work. Of course, you can make a philosophical point by looking at a cheese sandwich and saying "This is extraordinary." But beyond the intellectual point this will not stick. For worship, long term, you need something awe inspiring that appears to have God's sanction.

This does not mean that there cannot be any "local colour" or "adaptation to circumstances". There is nothing intrinsically evil about "youth masses" or "folk masses" or whatever. But the question is whether the differences to a normal mass are geared toward maintaining sanctioned awe in a more appropriate way, or whether they are just attempts to please the current crowd. And so in practice most of these attempts are really misguided.

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quote:

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Originally posted by leo:
I wish it well. When i trained to be spiritual director it was pointed out that not everyone finds God in silence and stillness. I experienced a meditation session where we had to dance to very loud music. Although it was entirely out of my comfort zone, it touched me.

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quote:

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Originally posted by IngoB:

quote:

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Originally posted by Matt Black:
Why inevitable fail? And how is it different from, say, the idea of a folk Mass?

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For something to be holy it must be hagos (Greek) / sacer (Latin), i.e., a matter of religious awe, as well as hosios (Greek) / sancitus (Latin), i.e., sanctioned by God. The more "everyday" or "normal" or "according to typical taste" one tries to make a religious gathering, the less holy it will become. And while I do mean this in a religious sense, one can say this on purely psychological grounds, without believing in any of it. This is just not how humans work. Of course, you can make a philosophical point by looking at a cheese sandwich and saying "This is extraordinary." But beyond the intellectual point this will not stick. For worship, long term, you need something awe inspiring that appears to have God's sanction.

This does not mean that there cannot be any "local colour" or "adaptation to circumstances". There is nothing intrinsically evil about "youth masses" or "folk masses" or whatever. But the question is whether the differences to a normal mass are geared toward maintaining sanctioned awe in a more appropriate way, or whether they are just attempts to please the current crowd. And so in practice most of these attempts are really misguided.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Tallis Acres:
I am sorry but the christian rock and many of the modern "happy clappy" (sorry-found the term on SW)does less than inspire me.

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But that's the thing, it's about what inspires different people, and people are different.

I've almost never felt inspired by music in church. I'm very aware that my tastes in music are very different to most peoples'. IngoB can tell me that I should be inspired by some kind of awe-inspiring traditional mass, but I'm sorry, it doesn't do anything for me. Nor does Jesus is my boyfriend pop-crap in more contemporary churches.

The thing is, music in churches is generally created as the lowest common denominator, because it has to be 'acceptable' to everyone, like musak. It can't really offend or be too edgy, because that will just alienate people.

I know there are a lot of people out there that love 'worship' music, or love traditional hymnal worship. It's so damn easy for them, because there are so many churches that they can pop into and feel right at home in during the worship.

But for people like me, who find a lot of worship music grating, and traditional music boring, but love music nevertheless, church attendance can be a right struggle. I go despite, not because.

I quite like metal, so I'd probably like the meetings at that church, but really, for me, the genre of music is extremely low on the scale of importance of what church is. I'd be much more interested in what the community is like in terms of living out a social gospel, loving each other, teaching and learning, and so on. So, although it would be nice, I guess I'll just have to live with being bored for large parts of Sunday mornings, which I've pretty much come to terms with. Same as the fact that it's just not worth listening to most music radio stations, because I just don't like pop, and 90% of what they play is pop.

But it would be nice if people who DO like the stuff served up in churches had a bit more sympathy for those of us that don't. For us, sacrifice of worship is an apt phrase.
 

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Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
goperryrevs - we did that until the children started to grow up. It's much more of an issue for them that both traditional and contemporary church music was a turn off for them. For myself, I can quite go along with the former.

I agree that music genre isn't that important. It's worth restating that notwithstanding the article slant the OotBS is not a "heavy metal church". Actually, our services don't involve congregational singing at all; we use music of a range of genres in the same way that TV programme makers do - as a background to enhance the action taking place, which may be the movements and speaking of the Eucharist service, or film montages and clips, according to what's been put together.

Liking metal would probably more put you on the wavelength of some of the more exotic members of the congregation than put you in stead for liking the meetings. The church is much more focused on the things you mention as valuing rather than the music genres of its meetings
 

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Posted by Dark Knight (# 9415) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by IngoB:

quote:

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Originally posted by Matt Black:
Why inevitable fail? And how is it different from, say, the idea of a folk Mass?

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For something to be holy it must be hagos (Greek) / sacer (Latin), i.e., a matter of religious awe, as well as hosios (Greek) / sancitus (Latin), i.e., sanctioned by God. The more "everyday" or "normal" or "according to typical taste" one tries to make a religious gathering, the less holy it will become.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Waterchaser:
Bread and wine are both fairly ordinary.

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Oh I don't know. Those flying-saucers-without-any-sherbert-in-them and that not-quite-sherry wine are pretty extraordinary
 

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Posted by Bostonman (# 17108) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Dark Knight:

quote:

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Originally posted by IngoB:

quote:

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Originally posted by Matt Black:
Why inevitable fail? And how is it different from, say, the idea of a folk Mass?

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For something to be holy it must be hagos (Greek) / sacer (Latin), i.e., a matter of religious awe, as well as hosios (Greek) / sancitus (Latin), i.e., sanctioned by God. The more "everyday" or "normal" or "according to typical taste" one tries to make a religious gathering, the less holy it will become.

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It seems to me that you are trying to make an argument here. For it to work, the second sentence above needs to logically follow the first.
It doesn't.

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quote:

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The reason Milton wrote in fetters when he wrote of Angels & God, and at liberty when of Devils & Hell, is because he was a true Poet and of the Devils party without knowing it.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
The one size fits all parish church for the people of the parish model is dead, for good or for ill. Society is so diversified that I struggle to imagine that a non-niche church is even possible, and I certainly can't imagine what it would look like.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
In which case, IngoB, let me set your mind at rest. The sense of awe as I perceive it in what is done at the OotBS is at least equal to and often exceeds that of other forms, and we are as sanctioned as any other CofE setup, with an ordained priest and the Eucharist celebrated using the forms set out and authorised. Not quite sure what more you'd like.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
As that cultural background changes and varies, so will the forms that generate awe.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Matt Black:
But on what basis is, say, Gregorian plainchant in Latin 'sanctioned' but the St Louis Jesuits or some other contemporary Catholic worship music not?

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quote:

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Originally posted by goperryrevs:
IngoB can tell me that I should be inspired by some kind of awe-inspiring traditional mass, but I'm sorry, it doesn't do anything for me.

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quote:

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Originally posted by goperryrevs:
But it would be nice if people who DO like the stuff served up in churches had a bit more sympathy for those of us that don't. For us, sacrifice of worship is an apt phrase.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Dark Knight:
It seems to me that you are trying to make an argument here. For it to work, the second sentence above needs to logically follow the first. It doesn't.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Waterchaser:
Bread and wine are both fairly ordinary.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I have sufficient knowledge of the set up to be able to address some of these questions.

As does the church's website at http://www.theorderoftheblacksheep.com/

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quote:

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1. a Christian community of whoever wants to be part of it.

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quote:

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2. can you unpack the question for thicko scientists like me who don't do long humanities type words?

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quote:

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3. much of the music used in services is actually instrumental. Where it's lyrical, (a) it mostly isn't actually death metal - a range of genres is employed, and (b) yes, it's appropriate.

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quote:

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4. it's certainly no more alien to regular conventional churchgoers than conventional church music is to much of the population. It's not like there's wall to wall death metal at high volume. I think the article overdoes the "death metal" bit. It's not a heavy metal church. It is a church for people alienated by conventional church culture; the pioneer minister happened to be a death metal musician and therefore that's the alienated subculture he knows best and how it began.

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quote:

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5. it's more about the people who form the community using artistic (i.e. musical) forms that they can relate to. Trying to second guess what other people might like isn't a brilliant idea.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Chorister:

quote:

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I'd just started one in Eccles,

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I was going to add it to the Hell music thread, but found it had just been closed.

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quote:

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"We want it to be as uncomfortable as possible for people who'd go to an ordinary church," [Mark Broomhead, the vicar of the church in question] says, speaking about his new ministry.

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quote:

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The service itself lasts just a few minutes. A short sermon about Lent is interspersed with film clips and an electro soundtrack. The congregation sink into bean bags instead of filing into pews, and afterwards bread and wine are passed around at leisure. Informality reigns.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:

Actually, our services don't involve congregational singing at all; we use music of a range of genres in the same way that TV programme makers do - as a background to enhance the action taking place, which may be the movements and speaking of the Eucharist service, or film montages and clips, according to what's been put together.

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quote:

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Originally posted by chris stiles:

quote:

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:

Actually, our services don't involve congregational singing at all; we use music of a range of genres in the same way that TV programme makers do - as a background to enhance the action taking place, which may be the movements and speaking of the Eucharist service, or film montages and clips, according to what's been put together.

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[Having read the article and looked at the website] I'm curious, how do you stop this becoming just another packaged experience (and as such a form of entertainment).

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That's always a danger, just as much so with a choral Evensong or a Warm Fuzzy Worship Sesh.

The services are biweekly - every other Sunday. They're called Family Gatherings - that's family as in the family of the church, rather than as in "Family Eucharist, 11am". They're followed by a communal meal. The intention, I think, is that the church is primarily community; the Eucharist service itself forms a focus; a collective high point.

As to "how to stop it becoming..." - the same ways one attempts to stop the same happening anywhere else
 

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Posted by Matt Black (# 2210) on :
 
I would agree with that; it's all part of the thorny issue of how do/ can we stop worship becoming entertainment.
 

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Posted by k-mann (# 8490) on :
 
You can say that again, Matt.

quote:

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
k-mann - you assume that reporters, when they quote people, actually report what they said.

They don't.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I was interested that the service "took just a few minutes" because I was there and it was about half an hour, and includes the Liturgy of the Eucharist, done in the service by the priest in the normal manner. The sharing is very much part of the service, not after it, and the service concluded in the normal manner after communion. The reporter may have mistaken the reflective atmosphere during the distribution for the service having ended.

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Maybe. I hope so, anyway.
 

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Posted by Matt Black (# 2210) on :
 
Ho, ho; some weird kind of interaction with flood protection!
 

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Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
k-mann - it may be different in the frozen Viking north, but in this country, if the press reports someone saying something a bit off, a reasonable question to ask oneself is "I wonder what he really said".

From what I understand the statement in question was in regard to the decor, deliberately chosen to be not what one traditionally associates with church and therefore a surprise - one that may discomfort comfortable conventional churchgoers - in much the same way as traditional church decor is not something that many people, to whom the OofBS particularly orients itself, are familiar and comfortable with. Me, I'm quite comfortable with both anyway; I was dechurched rather than unchurched when I found the Order. There are many there, though, who you just can't imagine in most conventional church congregations. They'd stick out like a sore thumb. Heck, even I do, what with long hair, leather jackets, studs and skinny jeans.

Bottom line here is that the OotBS has a congregation of people who without it would probably not be in any church - not because they lack faith, but because they find the existing church communities very difficult to be part of - for example, in my case, being under 60 and having young children.

As regards "Maybe, I hope so" - well, I was there as a regular member of the community. I think I know what happens, and what happened.

[ 15. February 2013, 11:35: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
It's interesting Karl's observation about both traditional church music and warm and fuzzy happy-clappy music both being off-putting to his growing kids.

We found the same with ours.

They particularly didn't like happy-clappy - they felt it was manipulative and had designs on them.

My 15 year-old daughter is into Death Metal (among other things) so I'll ask her what she thinks of the idea of a church adopting this style ...

In fact, I just have ... she's poorly and off school. She frowned and said, 'That's stupid, that's stupid ...'

When I asked her why, she said, 'Why don't they just go to normal church ...'
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
That doesn't, of course, obviate Karl's feelings about his own experience of feeling marginalised in largely elderly and liturgically inclined congregations. But it's an interesting reaction from my daughter, I think ...

She would count herself as a believer, unlike my eldest, but doesn't attend any services as such - not even the youth-group these days which she claims to find 'cheesy'.

I don't know what the answer is to this.

Death Metal style churches sound like a load of bollocks to me, but then I'm not the target audience. The whole thing sounds immature, though. Sorry and all that. Granted, all churches have their particular style and ethos so why not a metallic one ... although metal is one of those genres I just don't 'get' - although I will confess to a preference for my daughter's early Black Sabbath albums (I remember them the first time round) over any of the new stuff she listens to.

But then, I'm more attuned to my eldest's musical tastes which tend to be much more like mine - punk, new-wave, indie ... although I also like jazz, blues, classical, baroque, early music, folky stuff, world-music, Johnny Cash and some country and almost everything else ...

I don't know where this idea comes from that we have to be 'into' the music we get at church, though.

I think we need consistency of some kind, though. I attended an Ash Wednesday imposition of ashes service at the liberal-catholic Anglican parish this week (the evangelical parish wouldn't entertain such a thing, of course). It was all quite 'catholic' in feel apart from the hymns - William Cowper and so on - which would have sounded a lot more appropriate in a highly Proddy setting.

I visit from time to time and experience a sense of mis-match down there, in that whilst there's a kind of laid-back ceremonial with bells and incense the hymnody sounds as if it's been imported from a Methodist church.

I s'pose you know what you're going to be getting at a Death-Metal style church or service ie. a load of bollocks.
 

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Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
It's interesting Karl's observation about both traditional church music and warm and fuzzy happy-clappy music both being off-putting to his growing kids.

We found the same with ours.

They particularly didn't like happy-clappy - they felt it was manipulative and had designs on them.

My 15 year-old daughter is into Death Metal (among other things) so I'll ask her what she thinks of the idea of a church adopting this style ...

In fact, I just have ... she's poorly and off school. She frowned and said, 'That's stupid, that's stupid ...'

When I asked her why, she said, 'Why don't they just go to normal church ...'

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Many of us tried for many years and it didn't work for us.

The OofBS is not a church for death metal fans. It's a church for people who can't get on with existing forms.

Nor do we particularly (or at all, IME) use death metal as a worship style.

I wish I could get these points across more clearly.

[ 15. February 2013, 12:05: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
 

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Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
And, Gam, as I have explained until I'm blue in the fucking face - IT'S NOT ABOUT THE FECKING MUSIC!

Trust me, you are, on this topic, pontificating from on high on something you know sod all about. Come here one Sunday and then you can tell us it's all bollocks.
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
Yes, I understand ... I feel your pain.

But death-metal for fuck's sake ...



Seriously, I can sympathise. I don't particularly fit in anywhere. I no longer fit into conventional evangelical type settings and whilst I'm far more contemplative/higher-up-the-candle these days there are elements/aspects of the more full-on sacramental/liturgical services that give me pause.

I'm not sure that trying to reinvent a church in our own image is a particularly helpful strategy longer term - but I can see your point about it providing a spiritual home (at least for now) for those who feel excluded in more 'conventional' churches for whatever reason.

Mind you, whenever I've visited Orthodox churches I've thought that they might appeal to metal-fans and so on - not musically particularly, but because some of the monks and anchorites have pony-tails and the whole thing has a Lord Of The Rings feel to it.

I wish the project well but suspect it'll morph into something else again over time or else go the way that faddish groups tend to go - ie. up their own backsides.
 

---

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
I was teasing you, Karl, I know it's not all about the music and I'm sure it's not all bollocks and yes, perhaps I've not been as sympathetic as I might be having gone through angst and so on over not fitting into various settings myself.

That level of cognitive dissonance is not to be under-estimated. So yes, although I'm taking the piss, I do have some sympathy.

Get over it already.

No, sorry - I do mean it. I am sympathetic. I'm sure I'd enjoy a visit, it's a nice run between here and Chesterfield but you are dealing with someone who has 'seen it all before here', a grumpy old git.

So I wouldn't expect to see me being won over.
 

---

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
Of course it'll morph. It's doing so as we speak. I just with the reporter hadn't gone on about Death Metal. Do you know how much Death Metal I've heard in OotBS services?

None. Nada. Zilch.

I'd also suggest that only a fairly small proportion of the church are actually death metal fans. The media can't seem, however, to get past the fact that Mark Broomhead is a death metal bassist.

"Death Metal Church", "Heavy Metal Church" - none of these are phrases I'd choose to describe the OotBS. I suppose it made a good headline, but it seems to be seriously misleading some people about what we do and what we are.

My comment about you coming here and then pontificating is nothing to do with winning you over. It's to do with you then being in a position to comment from knowledge, rather than a very misleading impression gained from a BBC report.
 

---

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
As it happens, I'd heard of the Order of the Black Sheep before the Beeb report - I can't remember how or where now, but it was probably linked from one of these Boards at one point.

I remember visiting the website a wee while back and not being struck by anything that looked overtly 'metal-ish' at all ... I can't remember much about it and I've not looked it up since but it struck me as another vaguely 'neo-monastic' style group - rather like Iona or the Northumbria Community - only with a more localised feel to it.

So yes, if the BBC reporter hadn't picked up on the apparent Death-Metal connection then I'd have been none the wiser about that.

We can groan and complain at apparent misrepresentation but can we really blame the reporter? I mean, what else, what other features could they pick up on to make it newsworthy?

Another religious group or 'order' isn't exactly news in and of itself - only if it has some immediately identifiable tag or ethos - ie. they cater for atheists (as in the Atheist Church story) or if the grouping were predominantly gay or predominantly bikers or stamp-collectors or English Civil War re-enactors or whatever else.

I do seriously wish you well with it. You know me, though, I like to tease. I will desist if it's bothering you.
 

---

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
I wish he'd been more interested in what we exist for and why we have the name we have - if I may quote from the Order's web site:

quote:

---

Why the name?
Black sheep were traditionally considered undesirable, their wool of little value, even considered by some as a mark of the devil. We really want the order to be a home for the marginalised, those who feel maybe a bit like the black sheep of society, even the black sheep of the church.
It is slightly tongue in cheek and we don't want to create a community of people moping about licking their wounds, more a community of people proud to wear their scars as a sign of God's grace and healing.
We recognise that we are all on a journey and that we always have something to learn from one another.
Even if you do not share our beliefs we hope you can find a place with us to feel at home, no obligation.

---

quote:

---

Another religious group or 'order' isn't exactly news in and of itself - only if it has some immediately identifiable tag or ethos - ie. they cater for atheists (as in the Atheist Church story) or if the grouping were predominantly gay or predominantly bikers or stamp-collectors or English Civil War re-enactors or whatever else.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
That's all very worthy of course, Karl, but are you seriously expecting any journalist to pick up on that? It's not what they'd consider news. Good intentions but hardly a story.

You or I might consider it a story but a journo wouldn't. They want an angle. We want to be there for the marginalised isn't a sufficient angle as far as they're considered.

The minister wears studs and tattoos and plays bass in a metal band, unfortunately, is.

---

Ach, I ken that right enough; I'd just have hoped folks here might have seen through that a bit, especially since I was here telling the real story.

[ 15. February 2013, 13:12: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
 

---

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
Or what you perceive to be the real story ...

Welcome to post-modernity oh Backslidden one ...



'What is truth?'

Whoops, now there's someone I shouldn't really be quoting ...

I'm pleased for you that you appear to have found somewhere conducive but this is the Magazine of Christian Unrest, so it's not as if we're all going to form a ring and sing 'Hallelujah' simply because you've found somewhere you feel you can fit in.

We wouldn't be doing our 'job' properly if we didn't combine affirmation of your apparent happiness with taking the piss out of someone who apparently feels that they're being counter-cultural by having long hair and wearing studs.

So.fucking.what.

On a more positive note, I'm pleased you've found somewhere that appears to suit you.
 

---

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
Just when you start appearing to be reasonable, Gam, you start making daft comments again.

You're not coming across like you actually have a clue. You've created a little caricature of what's going on and are happily ripping the piss out of it. You don't know the OofBS, you don't know Mark Broomhead, you don't know me.

But you seem to think you know it all. You're damned close to a Hell call.

[ 15. February 2013, 13:50: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
 

---

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
Fair enough, I'm simply saying that it's unreasonable to expect everyone here to share your enthusiasm for your new found spiritual home.

I'm glad you're finding it conducive and I hope you'll be happy there.

Ok, we all may have been side-tracked a bit by the apparent Death-Metal connection but I think the discussion has moved beyond that. Any subsequent jibes are intended in fun. If they've offended you then I apologise.

As I've said, I'm a grumpy old git. That sets the context. It doesn't mean that The Order of the Black Sheep is a heap of shite. If it suits you, go for it.
 

---

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
I'm not expecting everyone to share my enthusiasm. I am however a little bemused that one or two people, on a magazine of Christian Unrest, seem determined to find fault with a setup created by people feeling unrestful, to the extent of continuing with misunderstandings even after they've been addressed.

Case in point, long after we've established that this is not a "heavy metal church", you're still asking your daughter what she'd think of a church using death metal as its worship genre. What's the point of that? Who's doing that?

And then we have k-mann with his "well, I hope so", like I'm making shit up.

It all looks very much like you're setting up a strawman to knock down.
 

---

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
Perhaps we're just being unrestful? Or pulling your leg?

Or being bastardly?

I asked my daughter about the Death-Metal thing just to get her reaction. It wasn't meant as a straw-poll on teenage attitudes towards church, still less an attempt to set The Order of The Black Sheep up as a straw-man.

I can't shout, I often bare my angst (and my arse) and my naked soul here on Ship of Fools when it comes to churchy things and spirituality and so on. It's a particularly British thing to try to knock down someone else's enthusiasms if they air them publicly - so I s'pose that's what I've been doing here.

It's the way it is. It's not meant personally. I'm such a bolshy bugger that if you said you'd seen the light and started attending the Church of St Strenuous Of-The-Lengthy-Liturgy-That-Lasts-Longer-Than-You-Pea-Brained-Modernists-With-The-Attention-Span-No-Longer-Than-That-Of-A-Gna t, I'd have found something to take the piss out of there too.

It's called unrest. And what looks unrestful to some people doesn't look that unrestful to others.
 

---

Posted by mdijon (# 8520) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
It's the way it is. It's not meant personally.... It's called unrest. And what looks unrestful to some people doesn't look that unrestful to others.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by fletcher christian:
Order of the Lovely Bikers

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Chorister:
I agree with those who say it will probably morph. Initiatives like this are usually only attempts at getting interest from non-typical churchgoers, you then have to run with where they wish to go. Nightchurch at Exeter cathedral is like this - they had what was initially a successful run, but are now wise enough to take stock and move it in a different direction as needs dictate.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by fletcher christian:
One of the key elements of metal is surely to do with angst, rage, frustration and a good old dose of testosterone? Any Christian stuff I've heard often sounds at odds and from the linked BBC article on the other thread it looks like a cheap corporate branding, but maybe thats me being hyper critical and unfair. This on the other hand is somewhat interesting and along a similar vein, but has a slightly different approach

---

Aaaaah, just read the about us - Yes I'm interested (but I would be wouldn't I!)
 

---

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I don't know where this idea comes from that we have to be 'into' the music we get at church, though.

---

quote:

---

They already exist (although I doubt they resemble your character)
I can't remember who the couple I used to know were with, though like CMA (wiki) it was biking by people who went to church.

---

Oh I know, I've met them on a number of occasions....and they're even worse than my silly parody.
 

---

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
I think that's true, Orfeo, but - within reason - I think it is possible for people to acclimatise to things outside of their immediate comfort zone - which isn't to minimise the sense of 'disconnection' that Karl Liberal Backslider and the Order Of The Black Sheep folks have encountered with 'conventional' church.

I don't particularly like most worship songs and choruses these days but I put up with them in a Baptist church plant I was involved with for six years because there were other compensating factors:

- The 'worship time' was short and they didn't sing the darn things over and over again 500 times like they had done in our previous restorationist independent charismatic setting.

- There were occasional variations with the use of liturgies and more reflective styles.

- The preaching and teaching was generally of a pretty high and intelligent standard and didn't patronise you or treat you as if you were about 12.

Equally, the first few times I encountered more 'High Church' style worship I didn't like it at all but I persevered and now I'd far rather go to a smells-and-bells service than to a charismatic or evangelical one ... although I still have soft-spots for aspects of that approach (in intention if not in delivery).

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying 'Pull yourselves together, stick with that creaky old liturgy or that predictable hymn-prayer-sandwich, it'll do you good, it'll put hairs on your chest, when I was your age I'd done my National Service and worked down the mines since leaving school excavating entire seams with my bare hands ...'

(Not that I've done either, of course ... )

@Mark Betts - yes, I've seen this Death To The World thing before. It's an interesting example of a traditional/historic tradition - in this case Orthodox monks - reaching out to a niche group - Californian punks.

I'm sure these things can be done and I do have sympathy with SvitlanaV2's point about flexibility and fluidity.

But I've been around the block a few times and can be a tad cynical. Nevertheless, peace be to all and I wish the Order of the Black Sheep well ... resisting (even?) the temptation to call it the Ordure of the Black Sheep ... oh .. what a giveaway ...

Seriously, I hope it does well.
 

---

Posted by chris stiles (# 12641) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
As to "how to stop it becoming..." - the same ways one attempts to stop the same happening anywhere else

---

True to an extent, but when ones gathering seems to borrow much from a popular form of entertainment (in this case a variety show) you are already in the middle of an uphill struggle.

And yes, aspiring mega-churches do the same thing, from a different angle, but one doesn't justify the other.
 

---

Posted by Mark Betts (# 17074) on :
 
I've recently started getting into Nashville Country Gospel - courtesy of Jimmy Swaggart!

Ah, I could never have imagined myself liking this sort of music a few years back, but somehow I found myself listening and before I knew it, I just got it - I'm not even interested in rock music anymore, it just depresses me - why should I buy music which depresses me, when I can send off for a different style of music which makes me happy?

Of course this music is confined to my CD changer in my car - not church - but it just goes to show how easy it is to suddenly decide you like something different, so can't the same apply to people who are "into" death-metal or goth?

The good thing about Nashville Country Gospel is that there is no competition in the secular sphere - it is a genre in its own right.
 

---

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mark Betts:
but it just goes to show how easy it is to suddenly decide you like something different, so can't the same apply to people who are "into" death-metal or goth?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mark Betts:
but it just goes to show how easy it is to suddenly decide you like something different, so can't the same apply to people who are "into" death-metal or goth?

---

Certainly. But there is a world of difference between saying someone 'might' change their taste in music, and saying that they 'ought' to.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boogie:

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:
...Certainly. But there is a world of difference between saying someone 'might' change their taste in music, and saying that they 'ought' to.

---

Who is saying they ought to?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:
See, I have a tremendously hard time believing that God thinks that there is something inherently moral or immoral about particular combinations of the 12 notes of our musical system, or particular choices of instruments to play them on.

LYRICS, certainly. Ideas and motivations BEHIND music, yes. But music itself? No. I can't see it. I can't see why a particular mode and style of musical expression would be, in and of itself, wrong.

Unless someone wants to argue that somehow, consonances are godly and dissonances are ungodly. Which would mean retreating back from not only heavy metal music but Bach and all the incredible things he depicted by using dissonance.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mark Betts:

But more than this, there is also the appearance of the musicians. I don't think someone should be singing a gospel song with an expression of sexual ecstasy on their face. The clothes musicians wear can also say much which is contrary to the message they are supposed to be portraying.

---

Have you looked at a charismatic congregation lately?
 

---

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 
People in all sorts of traditions have looks of ecstasy on their faces when praising God. It seems VERY odd for you to decide that the people using a particular genre have a look of sexual ecstasy on their face!

It is similarly bizarre to equate a fast heartbeat with aggression, and not any other kind of excitement or joy or celebration, or indeed with the countless forms of fast dancing that existed long before rock music had been thought of.

[ 17. February 2013, 11:40: Message edited by: orfeo ]
 

---

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 
I should mention, by the way, that I am not remotely a fan of death metal. Or even heavy metal. Or even much in the way of heavy rock music.

EDIT: Which can readily be proved from my blog. At least, if I get around to updating it... But then, I am a Tori Amos fan and Focus On The Family had all sorts of wonderful proofs of how evil her piano-based music was.

[ 17. February 2013, 11:45: Message edited by: orfeo ]
 

---

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 
Come to think of it, almost certainly the single 'heaviest' piece of music I own is this, which (1) is from an insanely diverse album traversing 4 utterly different music styles and (2) is taken directly from Isaiah 6.

In isolation, it is not remotely my style of music. In context, as part of a 6-song suite about fire that primarily treats fire as God's holy cleansing force (including touching Isaiah's lips with coal), I think it's completely brilliant.
 

---

Posted by Mark Betts (# 17074) on :
 
orfeo, did you get what I was trying to say about the difference between rock (especially heavy) music beat and country & western beat?

Maybe all worship bands should start playing country gospel... maybe? Well it was a thought...
 

---

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mark Betts:
orfeo, did you get what I was trying to say about the difference between rock (especially heavy) music beat and country & western beat?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mark Betts:
But styles of music are more than just arrangements of notes. Rock music has an aggression about it, and I think this is at the heart of the problem - literally, because a fast beat can affect your own heartbeat, making it faster, and you more aggressive which is linked to sexuality - do you think that should be in a church?

More here:
Is Christian Rock Christian?

---

quote:

---

Probably the most prominent, in one album, The Big Picture, uses the name of Jesus once in the nine songs.

---

First, how old is that article? The Big Picture came out in 1986, unless there's another album of the same name by a highly prominent CCM artist.

Second, Michael W. Smith would scarcely qualify as rock in any sane definition.

Third, anyone who thinks the only way to contain a Christian message is to namecheck Jesus every 5 seconds needs serious help.

And fourth, that's still one more time than the book of Esther mentions God.
 

---

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 
The song from that album that I'm most familiar with.

The one that Michael W Smith ended up naming his record company after.

I chose this live version partly because the lyrics are reproduced underneath. And this live version has much MORE of a beat than the studio version. Ooh yes, listen to that incredibly aggressive beat! Read those dreadful lyrics completely lacking references to the transforming power of Jesus!
 

---

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
@Mark Betts.

A point of information.

Country Gospel does have a secular equivalent.

It's called Country music or Country & Western music.

Of all the daft things I've heard you say, that comment has to be the daftest.

Whoops - I'll get called on that ... this is Purgatory ...

@Goperryrevs and Orfeo - yes, I reckon you're both on the money as far as rock music goes - it has its place. I like it too. I'm not sure I want a soft-rock style or a hard rock style in church though ... give me some kind of plain-chant - or else some old-fashioned Welsh hymn tunes in a minor key.

I've got a theory that Russian and Welsh spirituality are very similar because of the minor key that is common to both.
 

---

Posted by Mark Betts (# 17074) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:
The song from that album that I'm most familiar with.

The one that Michael W Smith ended up naming his record company after.

I chose this live version partly because the lyrics are reproduced underneath. And this live version has much MORE of a beat than the studio version. Ooh yes, listen to that incredibly aggressive beat! Read those dreadful lyrics completely lacking references to the transforming power of Jesus!

---

That's terrible orfeo - it should be banned!
 

---

Posted by Mudfrog (# 8116) on :
 
We have heavy metal every week in our Salvation Army church.

So heavy some of us have to sit down to play


 

---

Posted by Mark Betts (# 17074) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mudfrog:
We have heavy metal every week in our Salvation Army church.

So heavy some of us have to sit down to play

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mark Betts:
orfeo, did you get what I was trying to say about the difference between rock (especially heavy) music beat and country & western beat?

Maybe all worship bands should start playing country gospel... maybe? Well it was a thought...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
@Mark Betts.

A point of information.

Country Gospel does have a secular equivalent.

It's called Country music or Country & Western music.

Of all the daft things I've heard you say, that comment has to be the daftest.

Whoops - I'll get called on that ... this is Purgatory ...

---

quote:

---

I've got a theory that Russian and Welsh spirituality are very similar because of the minor key that is common to both.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by chris stiles:
IMHO .. a lot of the completely fallacious anti-rock feeling in the church originally had somewhat racist roots.

You can see the same things being said about rock, rock-and-roll, jazz, blues etc. There's always a streak of fear of the other involved.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mudfrog:
No, THIS is what you want - my favourite Christian band - Stryper

---

I've listened to this six times now - just to be sure how terrible I think it is!
 

---

Posted by Mudfrog (# 8116) on :
 
When Booth made famous the quote 'Why should the Devil have all the best tunes?' it wasn't a comment on music style or the appropriateness of melody or rhythm in a church/worship setting, it was a commentary on the context in which that music was heard.

The common perception is that Booth, in using music hall tunes and putting Chruistian words to them*, was simply using 'secular music'. This is not the whole story.

The Music Hall with its variety acts was an 1890s phenomenon. It was the genteel version of the places of entertainment that were popular in the 1860s to 1880s - where most of the audinces were men, where the songs were filthy (by Victorian standards), where drag artists were popular and most of the audience was drunk, and not a few would be engaged in coitus in the balcony, half-hidden from view in the clouds of tobacco smoke that sometimes prevented even the acts on stage from being seen.

It was the music from these establishments that Booth started to use; therefore the outcry was not against the use of secular tunes but disgust at the use of profane tunes from these 'forts of darkness' where the devil had his kingdom.

I guess then, the use of blues and jazz was the 1920s/1930s equivalent. And as for rock 'n' roll, well we have conveniently forgotten that in the 1940 and 50s everyone knew that rock n roll was a euphemism for intercourse. You can understand therefore the attitude of the church to bringing such music into the sanctuary.




*e.g. 'Champagne Charlie is my name' became 'Bless His name He sets me free'.
 

---

Posted by Mudfrog (# 8116) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mark Betts:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mudfrog:
No, THIS is what you want - my favourite Christian band - Stryper

---

I've listened to this six times now - just to be sure how terrible I think it is!

---

You like it that much?

Go on, admit it; it's pretty cool
 

---

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mark Betts:
Very good - now have a listen to this:

Leavin' On My Mind: Jimmy Swaggart

You'll soon lose interest in Michael W Smith once you got some country in yer blood, orfeo! Yeee-haa!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mudfrog:
And as for rock 'n' roll, well we have conveniently forgotten that in the 1940 and 50s everyone knew that rock n roll was a euphemism for intercourse. You can understand therefore the attitude of the church to bringing such music into the sanctuary.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mudfrog:
And as for rock 'n' roll, well we have conveniently forgotten that in the 1940 and 50s everyone knew that rock n roll was a euphemism for intercourse. You can understand therefore the attitude of the church to bringing such music into the sanctuary.

---

I haven't forgotten it at all. I just think it's wrong to assume that the origins of a word completely define the thing that the word is describing 70 years later.

And frankly, it would suggest having learnt nothing from Booth whatsoever.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mark Betts:
]That's rather a sweeping statement, chris - I think you need to justify it before I can comment. Also you need to distinguish between rock music outside the church, and the same as part of church worship.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mudfrog:

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mudfrog:
And as for rock 'n' roll, well we have conveniently forgotten that in the 1940 and 50s everyone knew that rock n roll was a euphemism for intercourse. You can understand therefore the attitude of the church to bringing such music into the sanctuary.

---

I haven't forgotten it at all. I just think it's wrong to assume that the origins of a word completely define the thing that the word is describing 70 years later.

And frankly, it would suggest having learnt nothing from Booth whatsoever.

---

I never said it did; I was reflecting on why, at the time, when the music was 'fresh' and current, people objected to its use in church. I think there are fewer people who would be against rock music in church than there were who orginally objected to rock and roll.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
There's something unsettling there that doesn't lend itself to a church service - although I can imagine it might have some meditative applications.

---

Much as atonal music isn't really to my personal taste, there's a lot of food for thought in the idea that being unsettling would be an inappropriate tone to set for church.

Not always, I hope.
 

---

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 
ADDENDUM: The bigger problem that atonal music would face is that it would tend to make participatory singing an insurmountable challenge.
 

---

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
Indeed - but most people simply want church to reinforce their own position or viewpoint. It happens with all of us in all times and all places, I'm afraid.

I made an announcement in our parish church yesterday about some Lent study group events I'm involved with elsewhere. I found myself couching it in terms that would fit the 'comfort-zone' of the particular ethos - low-church evangelicalism - rather than any aspects (and there will be some, believe you me) that don't fit that particular paradigm.

I felt bad about it afterwards.

Mea culpa.

But I agree with you, we should be looking to comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable ...

We don't always do either very well ...


 

---

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:
ADDENDUM: The bigger problem that atonal music would face is that it would tend to make participatory singing an insurmountable challenge.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by chris stiles:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
As to "how to stop it becoming..." - the same ways one attempts to stop the same happening anywhere else

---

True to an extent, but when ones gathering seems to borrow much from a popular form of entertainment (in this case a variety show) you are already in the middle of an uphill struggle.

And yes, aspiring mega-churches do the same thing, from a different angle, but one doesn't justify the other.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:
ADDENDUM: The bigger problem that atonal music would face is that it would tend to make participatory singing an insurmountable challenge.

---

We don't do participatory singing anyway.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Yeah; I can see by description how that worry would cross your mind. On the ground it just doesn't seem to be an issue. It certainly doesn't feel like any kind of "variety show".

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I've come across neo-Calvinist types who consider both Orthodox chant and Taize to be dangerous because they believe they have an hypnotic effect ...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boogie:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:
ADDENDUM: The bigger problem that atonal music would face is that it would tend to make participatory singing an insurmountable challenge.

---

We don't do participatory singing anyway.

---

Do you miss it?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by chris stiles:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Yeah; I can see by description how that worry would cross your mind. On the ground it just doesn't seem to be an issue. It certainly doesn't feel like any kind of "variety show".

---

Are there many people who only show up to your meeting and aren't seen at all during anything else your group gets involved in?

---

Fewer than in most other churches I've been involved with.
 

---

Posted by IngoB (# 8700) on :
 
This idea that all music is created equal is decidedly odd. When I was young, I waved and pogoed at live concerts of the Pixies, Ramones, New Model Army, Pogues, etc. I also listed to Dead Kennedys, EA80, Joy Division, Einstürzende Neubauten, Cure, etc. So, apparently all this I could have done to classical music just as well? Yeah. Right. Beethoven can have some oomph at least, but even that is just nowhere near the testosterone-driven physicality and angst-driven darkness that was the music of my (post-)puberty.

And we would totally expect Shakira belly-dancing to a Schönberg number next. And this morality play clearly would work just as well with Schubert. It is actually an insult to music to claim that it has no character by and in itself, but merely provides a basically arbitrary wrapper for the content provided by the lyrics (or maybe the visuals provided by dancers). It also borders on the absurd to declare "sex, drugs and rock 'n' roll" a mere accident of history. Perhaps you think Elvis had some kind of motor cortex disease that made him shake his hips? It was all a misunderstanding...

And no, I'm not at all against popular music, or indeed popular Christian music. I recently kickstarted Donny Todd's album, and I'm looking forward to getting the CD when it is done. Whether I would want to listen to this during mass rather than at home is however another question. And that this music is something else than either Mozart or Napalm Death, Gregorian Chant or Prodigy, not just by lyrics but by what the music itself wants and does, is just plain obvious.
 

---

Posted by goperryrevs (# 13504) on :
 
Ingo, that's a very elloquent refute of... whom? I'm sorry, but ISTM a classic strawman.

quote:

---

Originally posted by IngoB:
It is actually an insult to music to claim that it has no character by and in itself, but merely provides a basically arbitrary wrapper for the content provided by the lyrics (or maybe the visuals provided by dancers). It also borders on the absurd to declare "sex, drugs and rock 'n' roll" a mere accident of history.

---

Who here has said those things? Of course they're absurd.

To recap, Orfeo said that to say there is something inherently evil in any particular style of music is absurd. I responded to Mark's ludicrous suggestion & web link that at the core of Rock music is aggression, and therefore Christian Rock is an oxymoron, saying there can be much more to rock than sex & aggression.

I even made the point that different styles of music are suited to convey different ideas and emotions, and that each style's range is limited, so they're most definitely not all equal.

Yeah, so what you've said is great and all, but I've re-read the thread and I still have no idea who you're responding to. Because if it's to Orfeo or me, then you're arguing against stuff that we haven't said at all.
 

---

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
Perhaps IngoB just wants us to think that he's 'down with the kids ...'


 

---

Posted by IngoB (# 8700) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by goperryrevs:
I responded to Mark's ludicrous suggestion & web link that at the core of Rock music is aggression, and therefore Christian Rock is an oxymoron, saying there can be much more to rock than sex & aggression.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by goperryrevs:
I even made the point that different styles of music are suited to convey different ideas and emotions, and that each style's range is limited, so they're most definitely not all equal.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Perhaps IngoB just wants us to think that he's 'down with the kids ...'

---

quote:

---

I can pogo to punk, and I can contemplate to Gregorian chant, but not vice versa. In fact, if anything remotely like the Dead Kennedys is going on, I will not be contemplating for a while. That's like drinking strong coffee and then trying to sleep. It's simply the wrong brain state. And one can say this whether one likes punk rock or not, just as one can say that coffee wakes people up, whether one likes coffee or not.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Is it taken as read that Catholic worship is primarily about contemplation, or is that your own personal take on the matter?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Having experienced lots of MOTR style (Protestant) worship, I'd say there's listening to sermons, singing hymns, and following prayers that have been drawn up by someone else. But contemplation? It's not guaranteed. And neither heavy metal nor punk rock has anything to do with it!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Pentecostal/charismatic worship might be similar to RC worship, strangely enough, because it's easier in these contexts to 'tune out', to stop trying to understand and analyse what's going on and just let other people's noise and excitement (or chants sung in Latin, etc.) wash over you. I've found that it feels natural sometimes to sit while others stand to sing some soft rock and wave their arms about; but in a MOTR service, sitting with your eyes closed while others sing to Charles Wesley feels like eccentric behaviour!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by IngoB:
This idea that all music is created equal is decidedly odd. When I was young, I waved and pogoed at live concerts of the Pixies, Ramones, New Model Army, Pogues, etc. I also listed to Dead Kennedys, EA80, Joy Division, Einstürzende Neubauten, Cure, etc. So, apparently all this I could have done to classical music just as well? Yeah. Right. Beethoven can have some oomph at least, but even that is just nowhere near the testosterone-driven physicality and angst-driven darkness that was the music of my (post-)puberty.

And we would totally expect Shakira belly-dancing to a Schönberg number next. And this morality play clearly would work just as well with Schubert. It is actually an insult to music to claim that it has no character by and in itself, but merely provides a basically arbitrary wrapper for the content provided by the lyrics (or maybe the visuals provided by dancers). It also borders on the absurd to declare "sex, drugs and rock 'n' roll" a mere accident of history. Perhaps you think Elvis had some kind of motor cortex disease that made him shake his hips? It was all a misunderstanding...

And no, I'm not at all against popular music, or indeed popular Christian music. I recently kickstarted Donny Todd's album, and I'm looking forward to getting the CD when it is done. Whether I would want to listen to this during mass rather than at home is however another question. And that this music is something else than either Mozart or Napalm Death, Gregorian Chant or Prodigy, not just by lyrics but by what the music itself wants and does, is just plain obvious.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by IngoB:
I wouldn't say that contemplation is really "tuning out". Also, the interesting thing about Gregorian chant is that one can sing it contemplatively. (It's not unique in that way, but it is perhaps unique how much of it is suitable for that.)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by IngoB:
I would say that rock doesn't really work without some form of sex and/or aggression in it. I'm neither musician nor music theorist, so I don't really know why that is so. But it does need that edge, that drive, or it just becomes limp.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by IngoB:
Fine. Point is though that we do not need all sorts of ideas and emotions during a service in the worship of God.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by IngoB:
I don't think that rock does a good job even at "righteous anger".

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mudfrog:
When Booth made famous the quote 'Why should the Devil have all the best tunes?' it wasn't a comment on music style or the appropriateness of melody or rhythm in a church/worship setting, it was a commentary on the context in which that music was heard.

The common perception is that Booth, in using music hall tunes and putting Chruistian words to them*, was simply using 'secular music'. This is not the whole story.

The Music Hall with its variety acts was an 1890s phenomenon. It was the genteel version of the places of entertainment that were popular in the 1860s to 1880s - where most of the audinces were men, where the songs were filthy (by Victorian standards), where drag artists were popular and most of the audience was drunk, and not a few would be engaged in coitus in the balcony, half-hidden from view in the clouds of tobacco smoke that sometimes prevented even the acts on stage from being seen.

It was the music from these establishments that Booth started to use; therefore the outcry was not against the use of secular tunes but disgust at the use of profane tunes from these 'forts of darkness' where the devil had his kingdom.

I guess then, the use of blues and jazz was the 1920s/1930s equivalent. And as for rock 'n' roll, well we have conveniently forgotten that in the 1940 and 50s everyone knew that rock n roll was a euphemism for intercourse. You can understand therefore the attitude of the church to bringing such music into the sanctuary.




*e.g. 'Champagne Charlie is my name' became 'Bless His name He sets me free'.

---

This just makes Music Halls sound like tremendous fun
 

---

Posted by moron (# 206) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:
Do you realise how much time I ended up spending last night reminiscing on Youtube about 80s Christian music?

Forget the devil's music, this is clearly the devil's thread. Or that was the devil's article.

---

You can listen to as much as you want for FREE!
 

---

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by moron:

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:
Do you realise how much time I ended up spending last night reminiscing on Youtube about 80s Christian music?

Forget the devil's music, this is clearly the devil's thread. Or that was the devil's article.

---

You can listen to as much as you want for FREE!

---

"Your country (AU) has been blacklisted."


What the fuck did we do??
 

---

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
You seem to have a pre-Vatican II view of the RC Church, SvitlanaV2. The Mass is conducted in the vernacular these days, by and large, although many traditionalists mourn its passing.

As for whether RC worship is more contemplative ... I've not long got back from a lunchtime Lenten study group at our local RC manse. Was it contemplative? Yes, in spades ...

The RC lectio divina approach gives it that flavour.

It was also quite tactile as they had candles, an opening prayer/invocation that involved rubbing oil into one another's palms making the sign of the cross and so on.

I think there are similarities/echoes between the pentecostal/charismatic approach and RC spirituality insofar as both gives space for the physical and the tangible ... but I also agree with IngoB that contemplation isn't about zoning out. It's a different form of concentration.

As for whether it has to be taught - well, of course it does. All forms of worship have to be taught. The pentecostals and charismatics, arguably and despite what advocates on these boards will tell you, actually 'teach' people how to speak in tongues for instance - although we're talking modelling and suggestion rather than chalk and blackboards here.

It is pretty easy to learn the RC contemplative techniques. They're not hard. But like anything else, it takes a long time to work them out and grow proficient - hence the spiritual direction thing.
 

---

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :
 
Gamaliel

Thanks for that. Of course, we weren't exactly talking about Lenten study groups. And I'm not the one who brought up Gregorian chant, which I presumed would be sung in Latin, but IngoB!

If all forms of worship have be taught, then all churchgoers have to be willing. IMO it's still the case that people choose the form of spirituality that attracts them, and then they agree to be tutored in its ways. It's good to hear about Catholic forms of contemplation, and as an ecumenically-minded person I would applaud all of that, but if we're sticking to the topic of the OP then we have to admit that the people who attend the Metal Church may not be drawn in by that. Maybe that'll happen later on when their spiritual tastes develop and they have some ecumenical exposure, rather like your experience, but at the moment that's not why they're in the church.

These ancient forms of worship work best for people who've already been Christians for many years. That's their strength. Maybe some of these churches ought to create a course aimed specifically at attracting recovering evangelicals and disillusioned charismatics, ex-FE afficionados and former Heavy Metal Church attenders!
 

---

Posted by Rosa Winkel (# 11424) on :
 
I thought this thread was going to be all about metal in a church, which exited me, what with me being a metal fan, quite accustomed to being in a mosh pit, having banged my head quite regularly and believing, nay knowing Iron Maiden to be the pinnacle of evolution.

Turns out, though, that the aforementioned church isn't really about metal per se. Still, looks like a cool place. Generally I have a mixed mind, in finding on the one hand that it is important to people who are different to meet together in church, so it isn't just one particular type of person going there, by which I mean class or philosophical outlook. Still, I don't know the people who go there, and in any case I've seen many churches where people are quite similar.

On the other hand I welcome approaches to enable people to live out a relationship with God. Christianity has changed a fair bit over the centuries. Well, I attend an Orthodox church, but still, people have changed.

It's strange for me to see people thinking that metal or rock have no place within Christianity. I've been to many a metal gig and don't see it to be opposed to going to church. In fact, I often feel more like praying during or after a metal or a hardcore gig, much more so than in dry churches with mealy-mouthed songs and no passion. Give me passion any day. Oh, and if you don't like aggression, don't read about Jesus in the temple, or John the Baptist's message, or the prophets, for that matter. I think what that priest meant is, Christianity isn't always nice and comfortable.

One could dwell on the fear of testosterone, but we haven't seen many insights on threads about men here, so I won't say more.

By the way, as well as being in the moshpit, feeling the sweat of men and women around me as we bounce off each other, adrenaline surging and all that, I'm also very comfortable (well, as much as anyone in the presence of the Holy Spirit) in Quaker Meetings, or on my knees while the sac is being waved in my direction. I need both.

Just that, with Ingo, I'm happy with the contemplation in church and the adrenaline in gigs. Thing is, church can do with some of, say, Rage Against the Machine's railings against injustice, AC/DCs love of life, Iron Maiden's contemplations on war and Pantera's call towards self-improvement.

In any case, Nicko McBrain of Iron Maiden and Dave Mustaine of Megadeth are Christians. Tom Araya of Slayer was brought up RC.
 

---

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
Sure, SvitlanaV2, I concur ...

Mind you, and I don't want to go off on a tangent, it did strike me this morning how 'simple' the format was and how these RC spiritual formation things could be quite easily learned and applied - although working them out in practice would obviously take time.

I couldn't see anything there that couldn't be used by a Metaller ... although not at the same time as mosh-pitting or whatever.

Karl has made it clear that the defining feature of The Order of the Black Sheep isn't heavy-metal music. Indeed, I could envisage a group like that being well able to incorporate lectio-divina and contemplative prayer pretty well ... perhaps better than a MOTR style Anglican or Methodist church - which tend to be quite 'wordy' and to take a stop/start approach rather than the more 'flowing' approach that might be found in charismatic evangelicalism or, in a different way, in the more Catholic traditions.

They used objects and artefacts - candles arranged to represent the Trinity, oil, a mirror, a postcard of some cathedral stained glass ... all stuff that could quite easily be used or adapted by a group like Karl's.

Ok, they might play a different style of music during the contemplative bits - rather than whishty-whishty Celtic style RC meditative music. But I can't see why Karl's group couldn't do something similar if they so wished.
 

---

Posted by goperryrevs (# 13504) on :
 
Thanks, Rosa.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:
Thing is, church can do with some of, say, Rage Against the Machine's railings against injustice,

---

When Ingo said that Rock doesn't do righteous anger very well the first thing I thought of was Rage, with the thought 'does anyone do it better?'

Alice Cooper's a Christian too, right? Plus half of Extreme? I'm sure there are plenty of others.
 

---

Posted by IngoB (# 8700) on :
 
Chasing the musical taste of the young (and potentially Christian) generation at its finest can be found here.

(I've just stumbled on this on boing boing and thought I should share it, will return with some more useful comments later...)
 

---

Posted by Dinghy Sailor (# 8507) on :
 
Ingo, have you come across Fr Stan Fortuna CFR?

The Zipper Zone (Chastity) - Stan Fortuna
(skip to 3:20 for the song)
 

---

Posted by Bostonman (# 17108) on :
 
I can never get back the five minutes I spent watching those two videos...

The dedication it takes to be down with da yoof!
 

---

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:

Karl has made it clear that the defining feature of The Order of the Black Sheep isn't heavy-metal music. Indeed, I could envisage a group like that being well able to incorporate lectio-divina and contemplative prayer pretty well ... perhaps better than a MOTR style Anglican or Methodist church - which tend to be quite 'wordy' and to take a stop/start approach rather than the more 'flowing' approach that might be found in charismatic evangelicalism or, in a different way, in the more Catholic traditions.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
It isn't even noisy. I'd hate to imagine anyone thought I was into high-energy worship forms.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
It isn't even noisy. I'd hate to imagine anyone thought I was into high-energy worship forms.

---

Would you say it was more about the Heavy Metal lifestyle or outlook than the music specifically? In other words, what exactly about this church has anything to do with Heavy Metal?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boogie:
Dance and Drama?

---

Only if your wizard casts that spell that forces the target to dance on the spot.
 

---

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 
Great. Now I've got the Buffy the Vampire Slayer musical episode in my head, and I'm going to go to bed upset that I can't immediately revisit its brilliance on DVD.
 

---

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :
 
Karl

OK,that's clear. Shame you don't do dance and drama, though! But what IS D&D??
 

---

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
You're really asking?!?!

Dungeons and Dragons

Having to expand it is like suddenly entering a parallel universe.
 

---

Posted by Dinghy Sailor (# 8507) on :
 
All your church are belong to us.
 

---

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
So it's a geek church, eh? Well, it'll be well on the way to becoming Anglo-Catholic in a few years time ...


 

---

Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 
For people who want to be more informed here are the freshexpressions story on the community in the OP.

Jengie

Minor grumble: why is it always the cleric who tells the tale on fresh expressions? In at least one case I know the congregation may well be telling a different story (nothing to do with OP)
 

---

Posted by Mark Betts (# 17074) on :
 
My problem with the above story is this:

I like the motto, along the lines of 'better a black sheep than a goat'. But these people are labelled (by the curate) as "marginalised" and outcasts as if they were born lame or blind.

But were they born with peircings, leather jackets and glam-rock hairstyles? I don't think so.
 

---

Posted by Gwai (# 11076) on :
 
Who on earth says a person has to be born marginalized?

[ 20. February 2013, 20:22: Message edited by: Gwai ]
 

---

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
You're really asking?!?!

Dungeons and Dragons

Having to expand it is like suddenly entering a parallel universe.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mark Betts:
But were they born with peircings, leather jackets and glam-rock hairstyles? I don't think so.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gwai:
Who on earth says a person has to be born marginalized?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:

No, we weren't "rejected" explicitly. We ended up at the OotBS because after running the Sunday School at our Parish Church for some seven years, and observing that for various reasons this couldn't carry on, the church responded by cancelling Sunday School altogether. We were left with the choice between spending the entire service trying to engage three utterly bored children, or moving elsewhere.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:

I know I run the risk of being accused of not knowing what I'm talking about and being bourgeoise and middle-class and so on but for fuck's sake - let's keep a sense of proportion and perspective here.

I'd be the first to accept that Goths and so on can be victims of hate-crime - as in the dreadful case of the girl and her boyfriend attacked in Bacup for their Gothic appearance.

If this Order of the Black Sheep is genuinely reaching out to people who really are marginalised then that's great. But there is a difference between people who are marginalised through no fault of their own and for the colour of their skin and so on and middle-class kids who think that they are edgy and alternative simply because they listen to crap music and stick a stud in their nose.

For fuck's sake ...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by chris stiles:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:

No, we weren't "rejected" explicitly. We ended up at the OotBS because after running the Sunday School at our Parish Church for some seven years, and observing that for various reasons this couldn't carry on, the church responded by cancelling Sunday School altogether. We were left with the choice between spending the entire service trying to engage three utterly bored children, or moving elsewhere.

---

Yeah, but "we didn't get on in church and like the OoTBS" is quite different in tone from:

"Black sheep were traditionally considered undesirable, their wool of little value, even considered by some as a mark of the devil. We really want the order to be a home for the marginalised, those who feel maybe a bit like the black sheep of society, even the black sheep of the church."

---

Not really. It pretty much describes how we felt after what you euphemistically term "not getting on in church."
 

---

Posted by Rosa Winkel (# 11424) on :
 
I don't know what things are like now in GB. When I discovered metal in 1988 and started growing my hair, and having a denim jacket with patches, later getting a leather jacket (this was the 80s metal look, by the way, Marky boy), I also started getting some bother like shouts on the street and, when I joined a church in 1996 (having by then shed my denim and leather jackets, but having gained a nose stud) I was shunned somewhat by some in the church. (It took them time to get to know me.)

My mum went through a face of concern about me, as I was wearing a t-shirt of the best album of all time, which featured the devil on it. She wrote to some Christian fellowship asking for advice. Her Pentecostal friends also had some concerns about this. I just laughed at them.

I remember seeing in adverts and TV programmes metal fans portrayed as stupid, smelly, drunks and devil worshippers. I remember this being thematised on Arena (a TV programme) where Kerrang! (a metal mag) journalists spoke of their degrees.

Now, people who are good with things like comprehension will see that no-one has compared such treatment to racism. It was prejudice, though. It isn't the worst prejudice I've faced. Still, we've seen some of this gobshiteness in this thread.

When I turned to metal and renounced pop, sin, the world and the devil I came to the view that "Never trust any man who doesn't like metal". As I've grown up I've realised how prejudiced that is. One should of course say "Never trust any person who doesn't like metal"
 

---

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
I'd stick my head in the gas oven, Rosa Winkel, if it would still prove lethal ... following your comment that I sound like a piece of Daily Mail editorial ...



Mind you, I was conscious of that as I typed it. 'Oh shit,' I thought. 'I'm getting old ...'

No, I'm an unreconstructed Grauniad reader and wouldn't wipe my arse on the Daily Heil.

That said, I'm a 'reactionary' so-and-so in the sense that I 'react' against whatever anyone else is into. So if someone comes on here waxing lyrical about 'Metal' then my immediate reaction is to react against that.

My youngest is into 'metal'. I'd rather she was into punk. In fact, I'd be quite proud of her if she was into punk. I can't stand 'metal'.

Ok, I know there are nuances and different genres, flavours but I dunno ... it just feels all 'wrong' to me ...

I knew Karl would react to my post and I don't blame him ... perhaps I am getting the wrong end of the stick but I dunno ... Chris Stiles puts it better than I can.

When I read that shite about engaging with the black sheep, with those that the church rejects and all that malarkey my immediate reaction is as follows:

'Oh for fuck's sake, get over it already. You're just saying that to give your pathetic attempt to reinvent 'church' some gravitas and rationale when all you're really doing is hiving off somewhere with your fucking immature mates and have a wankfest in which you imagine yourselves to be cutting-edge and alternative when all you really are is a bunch of posturing middle-class tosspots who think that you've got something new and different to say when really all you're doing is pedalling the same piss in a different bottle. Why don't you just fuck off and stop taking yourselves so fucking seriously?'

So I suppose, in a roundabout way, I'm lining myself up with these apparent reactionary and establishment powers that are giving these poor dabs with their studs and their nose-rings such a hard time.

Bollocks.
 

---

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
Gamaliel - I really don't know where to go from here with you. You seem determined to hate what we're doing and to despise us as a group, and I really, really don't get why.

You seem determined to lay a massive burden blame on people who struggle with the mainstream church on them by labelling them as "taking themselves too seriously", "wanting special treatment", "middle class tosspots", "immature" etc etc without the slightest shred of justification save your own knee-jerk reaction.

Why do you have this irresistible compulsion to piss on other people's bonfires? To judge people who you have never met in such strident and fundamentally damning ways?
 

---

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 
There's another board where the two of you can say what you really think...

Our rates are cheap.
 

---

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
I'm probably over-reacting here, but I've been around the block a few times and seen almost everything before.

I've got nothing against studs and rings and Goth or grungey looks and so on and so forth. Fine. Just don't go making a big deal about it as if somehow this in-of-itself makes for being inclusive and reaching out to the 'black sheep.'

I s'pose it's the pretentiousness - or apparent pretentiousness of the whole thing that rubs me up the wrong way.

Human beings can't accept too much reality.

If they were blinkin' honest and simply said, 'Well, we're into Dungeons and Dragons and metal-ish iconography and so on, so we thought that if we set up a church which adopted that kind of visual style and a more laid-back approach then it might appeal to other people who share these enthusiams ...'

- I probably wouldn't have an issue. Not at all.

It's just the way it's dressed up in all this 'black sheep' clap-trap and the way it's putting itself across as some kind of major innovation that narks me.

Be honest. We didn't like our church. It didn't cater for our kids. We decided to find a new one. This one seemed to suit.

Instead, what do we get? All this bollocks about being a church for the marginalised and the faux-marginalised, the middle-class geeky bastards who're in Dungeons-and-Fucking-Dragons because they can't get girlfriends, the kids who think it's cool and daring to wear a stud. It's pathetic.

There's a place for that. If people want to play Dungeons and Dragons or dress up like something out of Lord of the Rings then that's up to them.

If people want to do chant or meditation or sing Hillsongs ( ) then that's up to them too.

Whatever floats anyone's boat.

But I dunno ... can't you see what's bugging me about it? It's the way it's portrayed, the way it's put across ...

Is it just me?

Or do I simply need to go and have a lie down?
 

---

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
Yes, you do. Desperately. Or get laid. Or something. Fuck me, I never thought I'd see cynicism worse than mine, but you're going critical, mate.
 

---

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
Why?

'Why do you have this irresistible compulsion to piss on other people's bonfires? To judge people who you have never met in such strident and fundamentally damning ways?'

Why not?

Because it makes me feel better?

Because it's shite?

Because I'm a bastard?

Because it's there?

Rebel without a cause and all that.

'What are you against?'
'What have you got?'

This is the Magazine of Christian Unrest. I reserve the right to piss on bonfires. That's what we do.

Someone has to.

It'll do the Order of the Black Sheep the power of good to have someone coming in to piss on their bonfire every now and then. It'll stop them taking themselves too seriously.

Same as it would do the Vatican, the CofE, the Elim Pentecostals, Salvation Army or anyone else the power of good to have the same treatment.

Piss, piss, piss away. Hear those embers sizzle.

And when the sizzling stops, rake the ashes away and reignite the logs. That way everyone's happy.
 

---

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
Nurse! He's out of bed again!
 

---

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
You thought you were cynical?



How sweet.

You think I'm cynical?

Even sweeter.

You've not met my twin brother in South Wales. He's worse than me.


 

---

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 


I love the smell of sizzle in the morning ...

Now where did I put my bedpan?
 

---

Posted by Gwai (# 11076) on :
 
Karl, Gamaliel, do either of you think this is appropriate for Purgatory?

Cut out the personal comments or take it to Hell!

Gwai,
Purgatory Host
 

---

Posted by Rosa Winkel (# 11424) on :
 
I don't think it's particularly unrestful to join with the reactionaries, however many words and smilies one uses. I mean, I got shouted at by a lad in Chester for wearing a Wales scarf. I've had snide remarks from an old woman on the bus to Llay by Wrexham for having long hair as well. I don't care, like, just that for me being unrestful is not falling back on tired stereotypes, or at least not attempting to engage with something you don't understand, or even like.

Still, if your daughter, Gamaliel, speaks Welsh, and given that both I and Karl do so, then I guess some projecting is going on here. Especially if this is all about you slagging off your former self, like some of your other posts.

The Buzzcocks are shite, anyway, Gamaliel bach*.

* Bach meaning, for those who don't speak the language, small, but used in an affectionate way.
 

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Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
Fyddwn i ddim yn dweud 'mod i'n siarad yr iaith, Rosa. Dim ond dysgwr ydw i. / I wouldn't say I speak the language, Rosa. I'm only a learner.


 

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Posted by Mark Betts (# 17074) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
...I can certainly see how people with apparently 'alternative' lifestyles (heavy-metal an alternative lifestyle? c'mon ...) could feel marginalised - but I suspect a lot of these people are middle-class kids who just like the vibe and like the accoutrements.

If you're talking about a bunch of alternative types who live in yurts in the woods or Leveller-style activists and so on then fair enough ...

But by and large I suspect we aren't. I suspect we're talking about middle-class kids who think they've got some special right to be treated differently just because they wear a nose-stud or affect a so-called alternative life-style.

My arse.

I know I run the risk of being accused of not knowing what I'm talking about and being bourgeoise and middle-class and so on but for fuck's sake - let's keep a sense of proportion and perspective here.

I'd be the first to accept that Goths and so on can be victims of hate-crime - as in the dreadful case of the girl and her boyfriend attacked in Bacup for their Gothic appearance.

If this Order of the Black Sheep is genuinely reaching out to people who really are marginalised then that's great. But there is a difference between people who are marginalised through no fault of their own and for the colour of their skin and so on and middle-class kids who think that they are edgy and alternative simply because they listen to crap music and stick a stud in their nose.

For fuck's sake ...

---

Yes Gamaliel, that's exactly what I meant.
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
I do talk tidy and speak Wenglish, Rosa Bach. I doarn speak Welsh like. Grew up in the Eastern Valley. No' much Welsh spoken down by there.

Such calumny against the Buzzcocks. Is outrage. I saw them supported by Joy Division at Leeds University in 1979.

Metal has connotations for lads of my generation which it probably shed in subsequent generations. For us it represented the worst of '70s music - the Prog Rock side of things - although I know that Metal was different to Prog, of course.

I never liked the resurgence of metal in the mid-80s. I never liked metal full stop. Although I did head-bang to Black Sabbath LPs with one of my mates back in the early '70s.

I'll hold up my hands and readily admit that I don't understand it. But then I'm not sure there's much there to understand.

I can pretty much get on with any musical genre apart from metal - although I've mellowed in my attitudes towards it (despite my rants on this thread). I have mellowed with age.



I'm not surprised you were howled at for wearing a Welsh scarf in Chester. I'm surprised you weren't shot with a longbow in keeping with the urban myth about the curfew law still being on the statute book.

Thanks for the amateur psychology by the way ...

Nothing on this thread has had anything to do with Welsh identity or projection. I wasn't aware that Karl was from the Principality, still less that he was a Welsh speaker - or learning to speak the language.

I was simply sounding off at what I took to be some pretentiousness on the part of the Order of the Black Sheep. As I've said, I'd have no particular beef about what they're doing and the way they're doing it if they didn't try to dress it up as something special.

But the same can be said for lots of things.

Peace.
 

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Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
And the fact that most of the congregation are actually in their thirties or older, many with kids, does nothing to alter your impression that it's "just kids"?

And so fucking what if it was? Wouldn't you rather have people, of whatever demographic, attending a church than not?
 

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Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
Why do you imagine I'm from Wales, Gam?
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
Dang!

Mark Betts is agreeing with me ...



Must.re.act.

Hang on while I go upstairs, borrow one of my daughter's heavy metal posters and play air-guitar in front of it ...
 

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Posted by Snags (# 15351) on :
 
Gameliel, I'm slightly concerned your account has been hacked by Jeremy Clarkson ...

FWIW, I can heartily related to:

quote:

---

That said, I'm a 'reactionary' so-and-so in the sense that I 'react' against whatever anyone else is into.

---

And the un-said bit that adding a dash of hyperbole and comic fulmination makes for an entertaining piece of creative speaking/writing. I have huge tendencies in that direction myself.

However, I look around at some of my RealLife™ friends who are more positive, accepting and less ranty, and increasingly it makes me feel slightly ashamed of being an amusing but miserable bastard, who runs the risk of ceasing to be amusing. Sometimes it has genuine merit, and sometimes choking it back is the wiser course and makes both me and the world a slightly shinier place.

You do the world-weary schtick well, and there are some spectacularly wide-eyed arseholes out there that are deserving of it. When it becomes the default position on everything, though ... I dunno, but I've found "Who am I trying to convince here?" a useful bit of introspection.

Also, I could be wrong, but I think there's a difference between "unrest", "iconoclasm" and "if it moves, shoot it; if it doesn't, shoot it just in case".

Yours,

Snags, still in recovery
 

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Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
Point - I'm a long way from being a wide-eyed arsehole. I've seen a lot of church initiatives that have turned out to be bollocks. I was initially sceptical of the OotBS. The difference was I didn't write it off without actually having a look. Gam appears to have done so. He assumes that Mark Broomhead's statement is "pretentious" - and he's actually pretty damned insulting in the process. He makes assumptions about who we are, what we do and why we do it that are way off base.

Informed criticism is one thing. Uninformed ignorant cynicism is quite another and ultimately pointless.
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
I didn't imagine you were from Wales at all, Karl. The otherwise estimable Rosa Winkel suggested that you were. Or perhaps that was an assumption on my part - he said that you 'still' spoke Welsh implying that you'd lived in Wales at some point. Which doesn't mean that you are from Wales originally of course - a lot of English people living in Wales learn the language - which is more than I have done and I grew up there.



Thing is - it's joking I am - at least most of the time. I'm half serious, half-winding up.

Just because I'm taking the piss out of the Order of the Black Sheep doesn't mean that I wish it harm or wish it didn't exist. I'm not that binary, nor that cynical. I use hyperbole.

I'm leading a Lent group this evening with poems and pictures and so on and so forth ... some people will like it, others mightn't. Fine. If someone wanted to run one Order of The Black Sheep style then that's fine too.

People would be perfectly entitled to take the piss out of me for leading guided meditations on poems and baroque paintings and so on - fine, go ahead.

I'm sure the Order of the Black Sheep is predominantly 30-somethings with kids. Fine. What I'm sure it's not full of is genuine black sheep. It'll be full of people who like to think of themselves as black sheep.

There's a big difference.
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
Fair points, Snags.

To be fair too, I don't think I've reached the Clarkson stage - I'd slit my wrists if I did - nor the 'it's all pointless' stage either. As I've said, I'm off leading a Lent group this evening and I'll make sure I chill out first ...

I'm teasing to some extent but I think there is an element of world-weariness that has crept in - I've had a series of knocks in recent years. That said, I went to a lay-led RC Lenten session earlier in the week that did me the power of good and took the edge off my cynicism.

I'd be posting in Heaven if I thought life was all butterflies and buttercups.

I tend to 'post to extremes' - I paint the worst-case scenario and then pull things back in a bit. It can be irritating.

I might be pissing on the bonfire and I like the sizzling sound, but I certainly don't expect my piss to put the bonfire out. Nor should it.
 

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Posted by Snags (# 15351) on :
 
For the avoidance of doubt, I wasn't intending the wide-eyed arsehole reference to find any target on the existing thread. I was thinking about some grade-A wide-eyes arseholes of my personal acquiantence.

For me, if I lived in the area I'd probably drop by the OotBS, as it sounds interesting, although I don't consider myself marginalised by mainstream stuff - I've made my peace with the disconnects, as it were, and can float between contexts without too much distress.
 

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Posted by Snags (# 15351) on :
 
Gamaliel, don't stop entirely - I find it a useful corrective for my own worst tendencies
 

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Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
Nay, Gam. I'm entirely English and have never lived in Wales. I'm just (and this is apparently unusual, though I can't for the the life of me work out why) inclined to actually learn the second most commonly spoken language in the country as well as my own.

Apparently this is considered a very unusual thing to want to do.
 

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Posted by Rosa Winkel (# 11424) on :
 
I didn't say that Karl was Welsh, Gammie bachgyn*, rather that he speaks Welsh.

Regarding my cod psychology, I was only skitting you. I wasn't making a serious point about Welsh identity. (By the way, in my Verger days I had to lock the kaleyard door one week a month, which dates back to the anti-Welsh rule.)

Anyway, your indulgence (in the post-confession sense) is to listen to Faster by the Manics (yes, I know they're not metal) on Dydd Gwyl Dewi**.

* boy
** Saint David's day
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
Well, I'm told that it's the language of heaven ...



Interestingly, Welsh didn't feature on the list of the 153 different languages spoken in Manchester in a recent study ...

I've got no issue with you learning to speak Welsh, of course. I might get suspicious if you were learning Elvish ...



I'm not a Tolkein fan either. I was more into Mervyn Peake's Gormenghast trilogy.

Back in the day, when I were a lad ... it had been Beatles or Stones for our youngest aunts and uncles' generation and for our youngest teachers, it was Prog or Punk for us (or Prog until we were converted to Punk at some stage or other) and either Tolkein or Mervyn Peake.

It was rarely either/or or both/and.

That dates me and probably explains my response better than Rosa Winkel's amateur psychoanalysis.
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
Meanwhile, I'm with Snags. If I were in your area I'd drop by to have a look at The Order of the Black Sheep and I wouldn't slag it off.

As I've said further upthread, I can imagine TOoTBS being able to accommodate/incorporate certain approaches a lot better than MOTR settings might be able to. I wouldn't be where I'm at but then, it's not aimed at me ...
 

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Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:

I'm not a Tolkein fan either.

---

You do of course realise that this is why I cannot possibly take seriously anything you say about anything ever, don't you?
 

---

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 


Tolkein's ok. The Lord of The Rings is over-rated. Particularly by heavy metal fans.

One day you will achieve Enlightenment.

Until then, enjoy your Ents and your Orcs.


 

---

Posted by Alaric the Goth (# 511) on :
 
The Lord of the Rings is NOT over-rated! (The Ents are a bit annoying, methinks...)

And it's Tolkien, not Tolkein!
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
It is over-rated. It's read by people who can't handle proper literature. It's read by spotty adolescents and people who never stop being spotty adolescents.

It's fine when you are about 14 (like my daughter) but there's loads better stuff out there.

Apologies for the typo.

Sure, everyone must read Lord of the Rings at least once. But that's about it. There's nothing there. It's turgid, escapist, long-winded and hasn't got a great deal to 'say' except that power corrupts and that we all ought to live somewhere that looks and feels like the Shire.

It's read by IT geeks, kids who do physics and chemistry A levels and who can't cope with real-life nor anything more demanding than elves and goblins.

It is an interesting curiosity, but that is all.
 

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Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
I think I'm spotting a common theme in what Gamaliel feels inherently superior to.
 

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Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
It is over-rated. It's read by people who can't handle proper literature. It's read by spotty adolescents and people who never stop being spotty adolescents.
.

---

Funny, this is what I would have said about Gormenghast; except I would add pretentious to the definition.

BTW, as a wee one, I read "proper literature"* and digested it quite well. Still enjoyed Tolkien upon discovery.

Dickens, Homer, Chaucer, etc.
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
Yes, but at least I'd acknowledge that Gormenghast is an adolescent rite of passage. Same as Lord of The Rings.

We grow out of it. We move on.

Or at least some of us do ...


 

---

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 

 

---

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 


Pretentious? Moi?


 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
lilBuddha, there's nothing wrong in reading Tolkien, of course. Provided you do so when you are about 14 and not when you're 45.
 

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Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
It is over-rated. It's read by people who can't handle proper literature. It's read by spotty adolescents and people who never stop being spotty adolescents.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
kids who do physics and chemistry A levels and who can't cope with real-life

---

This, in particular, is worthy of hell call in itself. You just said that I can't handle real life. Maybe you wanna take that back? It's only because we've always got on pretty well that I'm asking here and not in hell, mate, hyperbole be damned.

(Code fix)

[ 22. February 2013, 12:28: Message edited by: goperryrevs ]
 

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Posted by Rosa Winkel (# 11424) on :
 
Most of the clients I have are aged 18-21 and I see various fallacies they believe in, or see they can't do things like cook or generally look after themselves. It's not easy to not come across like a "I'm so much wiser than you, and I've made mistakes, but I'm wise enough to have moved on from them" know-it-all twat.
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
I actually missed a bit out in that admittedly hell-worthy bit, Goperryrevs. I wasn't looking where I was typing.

It might still be hell-worthy but I wasn't saying that there is anything wrong in doing physics and chemistry A Levels, it's just that in my experience, Tolkien was the only book that the science bods at school actually read ...

Pretentious arty types like me were reading Joyce and Sartre, Camus, Kafka and Scott Fitzgerald among other things and catching up - belatedly I admit - with punk. And there were all the kids doing science A levels reading about fucking gnomes and trolls and bastard bloody Hobbits.

The whole Tolkien thing has become fused in my mind with Prog Rock and all that shite.

It's the Spinal Tap of literature.

Rosa Winkel slagged off the Buzzcocks earlier but at least they were singing about normal everyday teenage things like falling in love with someone you shouldn't fall in love and wanking and cutting yourself shaving and so on.

Then there was The Members and 'The Sound of the Suburbs' and The Ruts with 'Babylon's Burning' and The Clash ...

I mean ... c'mon. Proper music. Proper subject matter. Gritty realism. Riots, racial issues. Not magic bastard elves.

There's bugger all alternative about Tolkien, bugger all alternative about heavy-bastard-metal.

What I meant to say about the kids doing physics and chemistry was that, great as they undoubtedly were at physics and chemistry and stuff that I could never get my head round, when it came to literary taste it all left a lot to be desired.

When I read the closing paragraph of James Joyce's short story 'The Dead' or the closing paragraph of The Great Gatsby the hair stood up on the back of my neck. It changed my life.

When I read about blinkin' elves and ents and orcs and things I thought, 'hmmm ... nice story but big deal.'

That's the difference.

The kids who read Tolkien when I was at school were the same ones who played air-guitar.

Can you not understand my antipathy?

Then, at university, there were the Mekons, The Gang of Four, Joy Division ... all sorts of angst and rage. Meanwhile, in the student bar, the engineers were still head-banging to Black Sabbath and reading Lord of the Rings and all that caper.

You guys are talking about heavy metal as if it was somehow revolutionary. From where I'm sitting it looks anything but.
 

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Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
Great long spiel, but it's essentially what goperryrevs said - an attempt to render your particular subjective tastes and preferences as objectively superior.

The only person really talking about heavy metal in this thread is you.

Can I understand your antipathy? No, not really. You seem to have this irrational dislike of things that aren't your cup of tea. Shame. I'd previously thought better of you.

[ 22. February 2013, 15:05: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
Yeah ok ... I shouldn't have got started ...

There ought to be a 'don't get me started' smiley.

Of course my subjective tastes are objectively superior. Why shouldn't they be?

Seriously, I'm under no illusions about the punk and post-punk thing. Joe Strummer's dad was a high-up in the diplomatic service. The Mekons and Gang of Four were posers.

I don't have an issue with authentic, roots-led heavy metal - although it's not my taste. If it's kids working in foundries and chopping the tops of their fingers off like that bloke who played guitar for Black Sabbath - Tony Lommi? - then fine.

But I dunno, it just smacks of everything the punk/new wave thing was reacting against. I thought we'd swept it all away - the gnomes and the elves and all that.

It seems I was wrong.
 

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Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
Why the need to sweep it away? No-one's making you listen to/read it. I mean, fuck me, if I could wave a magic wand and order all according to my tastes, professional football would cease to exist and anyone talking about bloody cars would get a 15 year hard labour sentence. But it'd be stupid, because they're just not things I'm interested in, not inherently stupid things that "should" be done away with.

[ 22. February 2013, 15:19: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
 

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Posted by goperryrevs (# 13504) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
It seems I was wrong.

---

That's ok man, we all are sometimes

I'm from a different generation to you, old boy, so I don't have the cultural knowledge to answer. When I think of metal, I think of Korn & System of a Down & Rage Against the Machine rather than all these bands you're going on about that I never heard of, because that's what was around when I was a teenager. I always liked music with an element of heaviness, but something else on top of that, like the pumpkins, nine inch nails, faith no more, and so on.

Thing is, I'm sure I could try to persuade you with what, in my mind, would be fool-proof reasoning, why Melon Collie & The Infinite Sadness is the best album ever, or why you should actively search out and listen to every piece of music that Mike Patton has ever created (and there's a lot, and it's varied). But the thing is, if it's not to your taste, my 'argument' is going to end up being piss in the wind, and will sound pretty empty.

And the thing is, the same applies in reverse.
 

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Posted by Rosa Winkel (# 11424) on :
 
Metal's all about elves and dwarfs?

An anti-war song by Metallica

A Colderidge poem about, well, you know better, set to music by Iron Maiden

A love song by Therapy?

A song about depression by Soundgarden

A song about bullying by Pearl Jam

A song about the death of a mother by Killswitch Engage

A song about the Shoah by Slayer

A song about a presumed nuclear war by Iron Maiden

and finally, A song about racism by Body Count

I've been listening to metal since 1988, and can't remember a single song about dungeons and dragons and stuff like that. I know that Ronnie James Dio did the occasional song about that, but metal for me is about everyday themes, or at least, big themes.

I would have thought that someone who likes poetry would be attracted at least to the big themes. I mean, check out the back catalogue of the Maiden, or Metallica for plenty songs about big themes.
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
Ok - I stand ready to be corrected. But I'm surprised you guys don't 'get' the generational thing. I don't know how old you all are but I'm guessing you weren't around when Prog gave way to Punk. If you were you'd know what I'm on about and why there was a Pol-Pot sense of sweeping it all away - the lengthy guitar solos, the Dungeons & Dragons style crap.

'Bliss was it in that dawn to be alive, but to be young was very heaven.'

We really thought we were seeing the back of all those elves and Spinal Tap style Stone Henge stunts.

As to how metal evolved later - well, I'm vaguely aware of it. I know Nine Inch Nails's 'Hurt' because Johnny Cash covered it. Great song.

But put yourselves in my shoes. You're growing up in the 1970s. The pop-charts are bleak, bleak, bleak ... Sure, there was Glam and there was Bowie but then there was Tina Charles and Disco, Boney-M ...

Of course, I listened to the Prog stuff like everyone else. Tabular Bells was the first album I ever bought. I even went to see Jethro Tull for goodness sake ...

Don't get me wrong, I still like some of the bands of that time - The Small Faces, Thin Lizzy ... Rory Gallagher - now there was a guitarist. I saw him in Bristol. Scintillating.

But Genesis and all that stuff got on my wick. There was something missing. I couldn't put my finger on it. But something wasn't 'there'.

When punk came along I nearly did my load. Johnny Rotten scared me shitless. But then it suddenly clicked - X-Ray Spex, Elvis Costello ... the whole thing had attitude. It was about real kids and real life. Not elves and orcs and all that shite.

Of course, punk burned itself pretty quickly - but then there were all these tell-it-straight guitar bands - The Undertones, Stiff Little Fingers, there were the Clash and the beginnings of punk/reggae fusion ... then there was Ian Dury, fantastic stuff ...

The New Romantic thing kicked off when I was at university but there was also the politically committed stuff - The Au Pairs, The Gang of Four ... there was Billy Bragg.

Then there was 2-Tone, the Specials, the Selector, the Beat - black and white kids. Brilliant. And groups like Squeeze, lyrically excellent.

Then the whole 80s thing kicked in. Stock Aitken and Waterman. To my horror there was a resurgence of metal around 1985 ... a kind of cod, packaged and sterilised metal. 'There's a 747 going down in the night ...'

Utter crap.

How would you have felt? The revolution had run its course. The crap and the shit was back in spades.

Now, perhaps I've got the wrong end of the stick. Perhaps there was something genuine and authentic on the metal scene that I missed. But can't you see how it would appear to be a throw-back to the dark days before punk?

As time has gone on, though, as an historical perspective comes in, it's clear that not everything pre-punk was bad. Steve Harley and Cockney Rebel. Johnny Otway and Wild Willy Barrett. I can enjoy '70s stuff on its own terms.

I dare say that if I spent some time looking through the back catalogue and engaging with some of the stuff that Rosa Winkel has listed that I'd find something that might take my fancy, something that I might appreciate if not immediately take to in a big way.

But there's a lot of baggage there. I think you underestimate the level of mistrust and distaste that my generation built up for these things. Who were the guys who beat up the gays outside the students' union bar? It wasn't the punks or the ska types, the New Romantics or the long-macs ... it was the head-banging metallers.

Knowing Rosa Winkel's politics I was surprised to find him into metal. For me it's associated with neo-Nazi groups in Eastern Europe, with reactionary politics. A cousin of mine was into it because he believed it was 'white-man's music' and not 'black-man's music' like reggae, ska and elements of the punk/reggae fusion that emerged for a time.

That's why it rankles. It has those associations.

Now, perhaps I'm wrong. I'm sure you're going to tell me that it doesn't, that metal has come of age.

I thought it was folk/rock grungies like The Levellers who carried the torch for leftwing politics, not heavy metallers ...

If metal has matured, then great. But you can't teach an old dog new tricks.

These days, alongside my back catalogue of late-70s music, jazz, baroque and classical, folk, blues and so on, I'll listen to world-music, Malian music ... all that stuff. Metal just isn't on my musical horizon.

As for the poetic aspects - I'll have a read of some of the lyrics but for me the clever lyricists are guys like Dury, Glenn Tilbrook, Elvis Costello ...

Besides, I expect science or other non-arts graduates and so on to be able to tell me about Periodic Tables and things I don't understand, not whether lyrics are any good or not ...



But I'll have a look. Must dash, need to collect my daughter from a friend's.
 

---

Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:

But there's a lot of baggage there. I think you underestimate the level of mistrust and distaste that my generation built up for these things. Who were the guys who beat up the gays outside the students' union bar? It wasn't the punks or the ska types, the New Romantics or the long-macs ... it was the head-banging metallers.

---

quote:

---

I thought it was folk/rock grungies like The Levellers who carried the torch for leftwing politics, not heavy metallers ...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:
Metal's all about elves and dwarfs?

I've been listening to metal since 1988, and can't remember a single song about dungeons and dragons and stuff like that.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:
IWith one exception of Black Sabbath ("Fairies wear boots") there was not an dwarf among them.

---

Er, I may be about 40 years out of date on this (and I've never been a big heavy metal fan anyway) but some of those bands certainly strayed onto the borders of the fantasy & sf sort of lyrics in the past. Or well over the borders in the case of Sabbath and Purple and Iron Maiden. And others used to hang around with people who did. Motorhead had early associations with the likes of Hawkwind and Pink Fairies. (And they also used to play on stage with punk acts)
 

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Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
I have to say that Gamaliel's little rants have moved me to play myself some old early 70s prog rock on my ithingy. Its really quite fun. A little bit of Gong, a little bit of Hawkwind, quite a large chunk of Floyd. The shuffle-doo-dah just turned up some Yes. I'd advise Gamaliel not to listen to it in case he disppears in a puff of moral superiority
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
In case I disappear up my own arse, Ken? Is that what you're saying?

No, straight up, I've admitted to being pretentious and something of a poser - I was an arts student for goodness sake, it comes with the territory ...



And yes, I can remember events where metal and New Wave acts shared the same bill and yes it depended on which way the wind was blowing as to where you aligned yourself and on which day.

The incident with the heavy-metal/Prog types beating up the gays was a real one. I remember it happening. Although I will concede that by and large it was the groups that ken describes who wre more likely to fill you in.

As for the '90s, well, I remember a burst of indie bands I approved of because they regenerated guitar-based rock music in a way that was reminiscent of the late 70s but without straying into metal territory.

As for the grunge scene, I'd tend to differentiate that from what I think of as heavy-metal. Groups like Nirvana were fine.

By the '90s I was settled down with kids and discovering my wife's classical music tastes and adding them to my own repertoire - so most rock and punk or indie/type music I listened to then tended to be from my youthful back catalogue.

I was also into jazz, folk and world music and tended not to buy that many rock albums - so there are evident gaps in my knowledge. I've heard of most of the bands that Rosa Winkel lists but most of them are no more than names. The whole genre is still too close to the Prog, Sci-Fi/fantasy style stuff of the '70s for my taste.

I mean ... does anyone still listen to Wishbone Ash or Judas Priest or any of those execrable bands from way back then?

I can't pretend to be that familiar with Thrash but it sounds a bit like Grunge - I'm cool with that.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy fast, furious and loud rock music as much as anyone else but I've got to be in the right mood for it and let's face it, who wants to see a bloke of 50-whatever-I-am-now ... 51/52? rocking-out. It's like dad-dancing. It's embarrassing.

It's not that which I object to, but the SF/fantasy type stuff and all the blinkin' gnomes and elves.

I remember seeing one of those daft compilation Channel 4 shows once which went through all the incarnations and variations of Metal. I can't say I was particularly impressed although I could see that some of the later bands - like the early metal bands - had rather more about them than what might be called metal's middle period.
 

---

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
Anyhow, lads, please forgive my little rants.

This isn't really something I feel that strongly about so I don't know why I allowed myself to get narked over it.

It can be fun though, but I'm sure I've irritated the pants off some of you so I apologise for that.
 

---

Posted by Rosa Winkel (# 11424) on :
 
There is no dungeons and dragon type of song in the Maiden's catalogue. There's plenty of fiction, "Somewhere in time" contains a few futuristic themes, there's also songs like "Phantom of the opera" and "The talisman" which could be stories found in novels.

I don't have that many Deep Purple albums (apart from the classics) but no fantasy leaps out at me. Zeppelin, deffo.

I saw Judas Priest two years ago and was blown away by them. Saw them again last year. Incredible band. Halford's got an amazingly powerful voice.

Now, while I said that Alice in Chains were grunge, in fact they were somewhere between grunge and metal. Whatever kind of band they and the other Seattle bands were, they deffo influenced metal. Look at The Almighty, moving from a blues'n'rock album of "Soul Destruction" to a grungish-hardcoreish album of "Powertrippin'".

Grunge has little in common with thrash. Thrash is much more aggressive and faster, and largely doesn't preoccupy itself with drug abuse and mental health issues.

As I say, the whole dungeons and dragons part of metal was part of metal within one particular era, and didn't constitute a lot of it at that time. In any case, metal has moved on since the early-80s. Looking at bands in existence now, I cannot think of any band that doesn't contain members in their 50s that have that kind of image. I mean, check out newish (from the 2000s) bands like Killswitch Engage, Mastodon, Gorija, Down, SOAD, Black Label Society and Trivium and see if they have anything to do with the metal of the 70s in terms of imagery and lyrics. Seriously, I've been into metal since 1988 and all this "dungeons and dragons" talk is bizarre to me.
 

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Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on :
 
Gamaliel wrote:

quote:

---

If you were you'd know what I'm on about and why there was a Pol-Pot sense of sweeping it all away - the lengthy guitar solos, the Dungeons & Dragons style crap.

'Bliss was it in that dawn to be alive, but to be young was very heaven.'

---

quote:

---

Seriously, I've been into metal since 1988 and all this "dungeons and dragons" talk is bizarre to me.

---

Not quite so bizarre to me. But my main references for metal are groups like Black Sabbath, Iron Maiden, and to some extent Led Zepplin, who all in varying degrees incorporated mystical and/or occultic themes into their music. Which of course overlapped with Dungeons and Dragons.

I can't really recall, though, if the headbangers were the ones who were REALLY into the DND subculture, which in common with Gamaliel I remember as being more the province of academically inclined "nerd" types. Whereas metal seemed to have more of a following among the too-cool-for-school types who weren't too concerned about their grades.
 

---

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
Stetson, all along I've acknowledged that I've been using hyperbole - hence the Khmer Rouge reference.

It's part of my posting style, I exaggerated to make a point and then pull back from it to a more moderate position.

I'm also speaking in broad-brush terms. I'd readily concede that there is good metal and bad metal and the issue of whether I like it or not doesn't impinge on whether it is good, bad or indifferent.

I think there was an 'authentic', grass-roots metal movement that emerged in the UK Midlands and which still clings on in some parts of the country - the old former industrial centres such as the Black Country, the Potteries and the South Wales valleys.

But on the whole, I think you're right, the fantasy and SF elements appealed to some of the more geeky middle-class kids.

It was the same with the hippy thing, which I remember the tail-end of. That was very much a middle-class thing whereas the working class and northern kids in the late 60s were into Motown, Northern Soul and, to some extent with the skinheads despite their racism - reggae.

Punk was initially quite working class and rebellious but it soon became the province of poor little rich kids. The art school crowd had been into Bowie and Roxy Music and some of them segued quite neatly into the New Romantic thing. There was also the more agit-prop end with Marxist pretensions - Mekons, Gang of Four, the very good feminist band The Au Pairs.

Post-punk bands like Magazine also appealed to the arty crowd.

So yes, there are elements of social and intellectual snobbery mixed up in all of this ... how could there not be? This is the UK. We do the class-system in spades. It's the same with sport, that's pretty much demarcated along class and socio-economic lines in the UK ... with religious and cultural divides coming into play when you get up to Scotland or over to Northern Ireland with some sports being regarded as more Protestant or more Catholic.

When I have more time I'll follow some of Rosa Winkel's links to see what sparks his enthusiasm. It's one I find difficult to share. The likes of Iron Maiden simply seem like throw-backs to the side of the 70s the punks and the rude boys, the art-school mob and the alternative/politico types were reacting against.

How anyone can still be listening to this stuff after 24 years is beyond me. I could imagine someone getting into metal from between 1988, say and moving on from it around 1990/91 ... but to keep going with it after all this time ...



I really don't 'get' it, it's vacuous, there's nothing there. It's all so over-wrought. Sure, I can see some kind of camp or piss-take appeal but how anyone claim that the likes of Iron Maiden have got anything serious to say about nuclear war or whatever is completely beyond me. Either I've got a blindspot a mile wide and am missing something or the genre has some mysterious capacity to 'take-in' otherwise sane and sensible people ...



But each to their own. I promise Rosa - whose political stance and sensibility I admire very much - that I'll look into it.

Meanwhile, I was thinking what rock music (beyond the stuff I grew up with) that I've listened to since the '90s ... all I could come up with was The Strokes (great promise but what happened to them?), some REM, one or two indie bands, Ash (I still like them) and, in the mid 2000s, the early Arctic Monkeys. Now they were good lyrically.

I mean, c'mon, lyrics about Sheffield housing estates and not blinkin' 747s going down in the night and all that bollocks.
 

---

Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on :
 

quote:

---

I really don't 'get' it, it's vacuous, there's nothing there. It's all so over-wrought. Sure, I can see some kind of camp or piss-take appeal but how anyone claim that the likes of Iron Maiden have got anything serious to say about nuclear war or whatever is completely beyond me.

---

quote:

---

The art school crowd had been into Bowie and Roxy Music and some of them segued quite neatly into the New Romantic thing.

---

One of the more awkward attempts at re-tooling a 70s genre act to New Romantic sensibilities. Suffice to say that image is NOT what anyone remembers about the band in question.
 

---

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
Ho ho ...

As for Iron Maiden. I'd forgotten that 'Number of the Beast' track. I wish it had stayed that way.



If I remember rightly it's lyrical genius included such gems as:

'666 the Number of the Beast
Hell and fire were spawned to be released.'

I remember laughing at the Beast/released rhyme at the time.

There have been worse rhymes, though, it has to be said, in the broad canon that is ... r..r..rr..rr..rrr..rrr..rock.

I know that heavy metal is one of the most maligned of all the rock genres. But c'mon, one can surely understand why this has become the case ... ?
 

---

Posted by Mudfrog (# 8116) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:
Metal's all about elves and dwarfs?

An anti-war song by Metallica

A Colderidge poem about, well, you know better, set to music by Iron Maiden

A love song by Therapy?

A song about depression by Soundgarden

A song about bullying by Pearl Jam

A song about the death of a mother by Killswitch Engage

A song about the Shoah by Slayer

A song about a presumed nuclear war by Iron Maiden

and finally, A song about racism by Body Count

I've been listening to metal since 1988, and can't remember a single song about dungeons and dragons and stuff like that. I know that Ronnie James Dio did the occasional song about that, but metal for me is about everyday themes, or at least, big themes.

I would have thought that someone who likes poetry would be attracted at least to the big themes. I mean, check out the back catalogue of the Maiden, or Metallica for plenty songs about big themes.

---

quote:

---

As for Iron Maiden. I'd forgotten that 'Number of the Beast' track. I wish it had stayed that way.



If I remember rightly it's lyrical genius included such gems as:

'666 the Number of the Beast
Hell and fire were spawned to be released.'

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gwai:
I would totally not call Queen metal, just for the record.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I'm still trying to understand how anyone as intelligent as Rosa Winkel can take these bands at all seriously - they all look and sound like piss-takes to me.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
...And, to be fair, as I've already pointed out several times, we were reasonably electic back in the day too. We didn't actually own that many albums in those days as they were expensive items and as thick as dinner plates. Someone with a dozen albums was regarded as having a collection. That's why we all went around to one another's houses - if you didn't have a particular album the chances were that you mates might. And not only that, their older brothers had the albums of the older bands like Quo or Roxy Music, Bowie, King Crimson, Led Zeppelin, Sabbath etc etc - so you might listen to those while you were at it...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I did indeed.

---

We were easily pleased back in them days!
 

---

Posted by goperryrevs (# 13504) on :
 
Cool Gam, peace.

Even with the bands I mentioned liking when I was 15, that doesn't mean I like them now (and some in the list were popular with friends but I was never that keen). I used to love the chillis and green day, now I rarely listen to either. Some bands that I liked back then seem to have stood the test of time, many of them haven't. Hey ho.
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
Yes - it's the same with stuff I was listening to back in the '70s and early '80s.

I think you're right about having a broad and eclectic approach rather than sticking with one genre. There's so much good stuff out there. Not only (adopts Smashie and Nicey voice) in the annals of rr-rr-rr-rrock - but in 'popular' (not pop) music forms as a whole ... you'll find me listening to Jacques Brel and also 1940s and '50s Chanson as much as anything recorded in the last few decades.

I'm intrigued with your comments about certain styles being conducive for worship. I accept that this is going to be subjective, dependent on experiences and tastes and all manner of influences that we may not be aware of ourselves.

I'd be interested in exploring - without 'taking sides' or making value judgements of one style over against another - what it is about particular styles that can help evoke a 'worshipful' response.

In your case, what is it about the 'secular' music that you listen to that helps provide that for you? I would imagine that there's something about it being a genre that you are familiar and comfortable with - but surely it must go beyond that?

I know these things are difficult to articulate at times - and I'm not one for demarcating the sacred and the secular overly prescriptively. I'm leading a Lent course with meditations on poetry and art and I'm bringing in all kinds of abstract and 'secular' material as well as poems and paintings on explicitly Christian or spiritual themes.

But rather than me ranting on, I would be interested to hear your views on this one - as well as Karl's, Rosa's and anyone else's. I promise not to take the michael.
 

---

Posted by Bullfrog. (# 11014) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by IngoB:
This does not mean that there cannot be any "local colour" or "adaptation to circumstances". There is nothing intrinsically evil about "youth masses" or "folk masses" or whatever. But the question is whether the differences to a normal mass are geared toward maintaining sanctioned awe in a more appropriate way, or whether they are just attempts to please the current crowd. And so in practice most of these attempts are really misguided.

---

What if the worship comes out of the crowd in question, instead of being foisted upon them by some misguided evangelist?
 

---

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
The somewhat misleading impression given by the article has wended its way back...

http://www.theorderoftheblacksheep.com/news
 

---

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
Sounds far enough, Karl. I think any of us who have dealt with the media in any way have found ourselves wrong-footed at one time or other.

But he still seems to to waiting to have his cake and eat it to some extent. I mean, if you're going to adopt a visual style or 'decor' that is meant to be 'provocative' or uncomfortable to those who simply want to skip from church to church looking for the lastest fad-fix, then the corollary of that is that you're bound to attract attention.

I still think that the original article focussed on the apparent 'heavy metal' aspects because if you took those out of the equation then there really isn't a great deal to report from a media-perspective.

Someone setting up a fresh-expression or trying to do church in a 'new', different or niche way is hardly news. It's not the first time it's been done. It won't be the last.

Why would anyone want to report on the Order of the Black Sheep in the first place? And if they did, they would have to find a 'hook', something to hang the story on. The Order of the Black Sheep might be 'news' to those involved with it but it is of bugger-all news-value to anyone else unless there's some distinctive element to get hold of and make a big deal out of - undoubtedly a bigger deal than is actually the case for the Order themselves.

It's sad, but there it is. But that's your 15 seconds of fame, I'm afraid. You've had your brief moment in the spotlight. It won't happen again. Which mightn't be a bad thing.

The only reason now that anyone might report on the OoTBS is if - heaven forbid - it all goes pear-shaped and becomes all Nine O'Clock service-sh with the leaders rogering and ripping off the congregation or if, at some point down the line, it becomes more 'conventional' and drops the current decor.

Then it would be, 'Remember that lot who had ram's skulls and heavy-metal looking insignia? Well, they've got a new logo now and it's a fluffy bunny rabbit ... ha ha ha ...'

I've been accused of being cynical on this thread. Moi? But I'm actually more cynical about the media than I am about initiatives like the OoTBS.
 

---

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
We didn't instigate the article. The BBC came to us. God knows where they got their information from, but it seems that when we weren't what it wanted, they wrote their own story anyway.

Irritating as the sniping on here was, there's some classic FSTDT fodder after some Christian Broadcasting group reposted the report on Bookface where lots of people think we must be satanists. Plonkers.

[ 26. February 2013, 14:47: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
 

---

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
I'm sure you didn't instigate the article, Karl, I wasn't suggesting you had. I'm sure you're right that the BBC came looking with a ready-made article in mind and only reported those elements that fitted their ready-made and preconceived idea of what you were all about.

As for where they get their info ... they'll simply have their ears to the ground. They'll have seen an article somewhere or else spoken to the Diocese. They have people on the look out for the quirky and the newsworthy.

As for the sniping here, well, yes, I played a part in that and I apologise for the irritation it must have caused.

I'm not sure what 'FSTDT fodder' means. ??

As for the way Christian media might be handling it - well, if I'm cynical about secular media, please don't get me started on Christian media ...

It'll all blow over soon enough and then you can get on with whatever it is you're doing and morph into whatever it is you'll morph into ...
 

---

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
For your education: FSTDT
 

---

Posted by goperryrevs (# 13504) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I'd be interested in exploring - without 'taking sides' or making value judgements of one style over against another - what it is about particular styles that can help evoke a 'worshipful' response.

In your case, what is it about the 'secular' music that you listen to that helps provide that for you? I would imagine that there's something about it being a genre that you are familiar and comfortable with - but surely it must go beyond that?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
lilBuddha, there's nothing wrong in reading Tolkien, of course. Provided you do so when you are about 14 and not when you're 45.

---

Says who?

I'm 50 and it's my favourite book. And I read very widely.

I don't mind people not liking Tolkien. I do mind people trotting out the old stereotypes about Tolkien fans. Sentiments like these are precisely why I kept quiet about being a fan for decades. For years, I was the only Tolkien fan I knew. Until the films came out.

If it's not your cup of tea, fine. But don't make assumptions about other people's tastes and why a particular book/style of music resonates with them.

Having got that little rant off my chest, I might as well say that I've never listened to heavy metal ...
 

---

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
Laurelin,

It is the age-culture fallacy. One, Tolkien did not live long enough in the past to become respectable yet. And his writings are not tied directly to an ancient culture.
Seriously, have any of Tolkien's detractors actually read Homer? Beowulf?
 

---

Posted by Laurelin (# 17211) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Seriously, have any of Tolkien's detractors actually read Homer? Beowulf?

---

Quite.

There is still a lot of snobbery about Tolkien around. I strongly suspect that detractors like Mark Lawson and Germaine Greer have never actually read Tolkien! Greer went on a hilarious rant on BBC2 just after the release of the film of The Fellowship of the Ring, about how much she hated Wagner's Parsifal because it reminded her of Fellowship of the Ring.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I'd be interested in exploring - without 'taking sides' or making value judgements of one style over against another - what it is about particular styles that can help evoke a 'worshipful' response.

---

What elicits a 'worshipful' response from me:

THE CONTEMPORARY STUFF

- Taize chants (love 'em)
- A lot of contemporary Christian music, again often derided in certain circles but it can be excellent: joyous, exuberant and yes, prayerful and profound. I recently discovered Avion Blackman, a Christian reggae artist whose voice is like honey (her style is wider than reggae, actually, but it certainly includes it).
- I'm a big fan of the Christian Celtic band Iona, whose music tends to be conceptual and jazz/rock/Celtic fusion. Their 1992 album The Book of Kells is just wonderful.

THE CLASSIC STUFF

- A lot of classical music, both sacred and secular. Beethoven's 9th is a religious experience, period. Bach is a giant. Stating the obvious here, but that kind of music is truly sublime.

- I used to love Gregorian chant but these days find it a little too cool and cerebral, as beautiful as it is. I prefer the dissonant harmonies of Tavener, and the gutsier feel of Russian Orthodox music.

- And then there's Jewish music ... in particular the Sephardic tradition. I love how Eastern it is.

My vicar, for what it's worth, is a big fan of Christian heavy metal. I should tell him about OTBS!
 

---

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
Relax, Laurelin, I just like winding up Tolkien fans. I'd like to think I was doing it long before it was hip to do so. In fact, I was doing back in my 6th Form days - 1978/79 when Tolkien was big with the Prog Rock crowd.

On the music thing, well, yes, I'm not particularly 'into' the worship songs and choruses thing these days but I'd be lying if I said that some of these didn't 'get' to me back in the day.

I think I prefer the gutsier Russian Orthodox chant to the Gregorian stuff too, but there's a lot more styles of chant out there too, some of which I've only recently discovered and would like to hear more of.

Bach - well


Meanwhile, on Goperryrev's point about different types/styles of music evoking particular responses - yes, I agree and can see how both 'secular' and spiritual genres can do that. And not just music either, but art, literature, architecture ...

I've been teasing and winding people up rather too much on this thread and probably giving a misleading impression of where I'm coming from with some of this stuff.

I'll be showing some Anthony Gormley material as well as Rembrandt, Durer and medieval/Renaissance altar-pieces at the Lent course I'm leading on Thursday. I included some Rothko last week.

As I said to the punters last week, 'Art and poetry is capable of taking us all sorts of places. It may take you to a different place to where it takes me - but that's great, there are no right and wrong answers ...'

Well, I might place some caveats on that. I think there are 'right' and 'wrong' choices and so on when it comes to these issues. But I wouldn't put Tolkien in the 'wrong' camp, even though he doesn't do a great deal for me.

And yes, I have read Beowulf.

I think it was Woody Allen who said that one of his greatest regrets about time lost and wasted was reading Beowulf ...



No, I don't mean that, but Seamus Heaney certainly said that his best-selling modern translation of Beowulf was probably his highest-grossing but least read publication ...


 

---

Posted by Laurelin (# 17211) on :
 
You realise that Heaney rates Tolkien pretty highly on his approach to Beowulf, right?

(And it stopped being hip to wind up Tolkien fans back in 2001. . For myself, I enjoyed Middle-earth becoming mainstream at long last ...)

But I'm intrigued that you think there's a 'right' and a 'wrong' approach to art, literature, music, and so on. Really? Surely the arts are subjective.

Having said that, I once walked out of a Philip Glass opera because I could stand no more. . Although I do like his film scores, curiously enough.

And you could not persuade me that John Cage-style atonality would be at all suitable for worship ...

Worship music should have some kind of transcendancy about it, since it should praise and honour God. When it comes to preferred musical styles though, as the vehicle for worship, obviously it becomes a more subjective discussion.
 

---

Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Laurelin:
You realise that Heaney rates Tolkien pretty highly on his approach to Beowulf, right?

(And it stopped being hip to wind up Tolkien fans back in 2001. . For myself, I enjoyed Middle-earth becoming mainstream at long last ...)

---

Never was hip, if you actually have a feel for the English language. Whatever the opposite of a "tin ear" is, Tolkien's got it. A faciltiy for choosing the right words (though it took him a long time to get there) He knows the language and he knows how to use it.

I think a lot of anti-Tolkienism is just the usual literary-establishment snobbery against fanstasy and science fiction, compounded with a bit of jealousy because he's so popular. And most of the rest of it comes from confusing Tolkien with the pack of third-rate imitators who tried to jump on they bandwagon in the 70s and 80s and 90s with giant multi-volume fantasy novels that you can't blame anyone for despising.
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
I don't despise Tolkien. I'm not a big fan. I've read the books and seen the films. And yes, as a smart-arse teenager I was all for slagging off Tolkien in order to parade my assumed intellectual superiority for reading books that I didn't understand ...



That said, when you were surrounded in the late 1970s by Prog Rock types who read nothing but Tolkien, perhaps you can understand why I wasn't so keen.
 

---

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
Of course Heaney admires Tolkien for his approach to Beowulf. Tolkien is well known as an authority on Anglo-Saxon literature.



I admire Heaney. Does that mean I should be a Tolkien fan too?

I don't see how that follows.
 

---

Posted by Rosa Winkel (# 11424) on :
 
Just to come back to Maiden fans, regarding the claim that we were "giddy" about songs about the devil and what not:

There are millions of us. We live all around the world, and have all manner of ages. We are not objects. Iron Maiden have done one song about the devil, the aforementioned classic. The Maiden have done more songs about war than about occultish things.

Oh, when I saw Masturbator in Warsaw a few years ago, with them spitting blood and saying "let's fuck off heaven" and screaming, people around me were killing themselves laughing. As was I. Metal fans are very capable of taking the piss out of ourselves. The success of Spinal Tap or Bad News among metal fans shows that. The Maiden take the piss often. It's those satanic Norwegian black metal bands who look so serious (trying to look strong in order to stop themselves feeling weak) who are ridiculed by metal fans.

Why do you think that I only like metal, Gamaliel?

Ah yes, my other point. The thing is for me, as well as being about, well, majestic music, the aural equivalent of a sun rise or a cup of hot chocolate on a cold day, I associate metal with rebellion. That people can be arsey about metal feeds this rebellion. For me, at least. (Here I say explicitly in case my point is missed, that I don't speak for all metal fans.)

I can understand the need for places where people can chill, be themselves (or at least, allow part of themselves to be out and about). I am not saying anything about the OotBS, just that I know from a Quaker Meeting that I was in that a feeling of victimhood (which can be justified) can be a right pain in the arse if people don't move on. We're all on our own journeys and all that, journeys that I would though hope would lead to understanding. A theoretical "heavy metal church for people who have had people being arsey to them" would be good (other than having excellent music) as part of a process of self-acceptance, but some kind of connection to others would be needed.

Of course, no-one's talking about that. I'm simply trying to address the issue of "finding/building a church community for those who have been hurt". (Oh, and no fucker is claiming the metal fans are victims of racism.) I'm not having a go at the OofBS or Karl or anyone.

What was my other point? Oh, there's a tiresome anti-Christian nature (a largely populist unreflected nowt-against-Jesus, anti-"organised religion" sort) is in part of heavy metal culture (despite key and famous heavy metal Christians). Arsey comments about heavy metal doesn't help with this.

Regarding worship, I think that in a metal concert I can offer a lot of myself: The emotions one cannot express in church (such as anger in a positive and negative sense) as well as my body and simply being glad to be alive.

A Quaker friend once told me that one has to "earn the silence". I cannot imagine kissing Icons being on my knees and all that without a few moshpits per year.
 

---

Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on :
 
Rosa wrote:

quote:

---

Iron Maiden have done one song about the devil, the aforementioned classic. The Maiden have done more songs about war than about occultish things.

---

quote:

---

Oh, there's a tiresome anti-Christian nature (a largely populist unreflected nowt-against-Jesus, anti-"organised religion" sort) is in part of heavy metal culture (despite key and famous heavy metal Christians).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Laurelin:

quote:

---

Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Seriously, have any of Tolkien's detractors actually read Homer? Beowulf?

---

Quite.

There is still a lot of snobbery about Tolkien around. I strongly suspect that detractors like Mark Lawson and Germaine Greer have never actually read Tolkien! Greer went on a hilarious rant on BBC2 just after the release of the film of The Fellowship of the Ring, about how much she hated Wagner's Parsifal because it reminded her of Fellowship of the Ring.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I'd be interested in exploring - without 'taking sides' or making value judgements of one style over against another - what it is about particular styles that can help evoke a 'worshipful' response.

---

What elicits a 'worshipful' response from me:

THE CONTEMPORARY STUFF

- Taize chants (love 'em)
- A lot of contemporary Christian music, again often derided in certain circles but it can be excellent: joyous, exuberant and yes, prayerful and profound. I recently discovered Avion Blackman, a Christian reggae artist whose voice is like honey (her style is wider than reggae, actually, but it certainly includes it).
- I'm a big fan of the Christian Celtic band Iona, whose music tends to be conceptual and jazz/rock/Celtic fusion. Their 1992 album The Book of Kells is just wonderful.

THE CLASSIC STUFF

- A lot of classical music, both sacred and secular. Beethoven's 9th is a religious experience, period. Bach is a giant. Stating the obvious here, but that kind of music is truly sublime.

- I used to love Gregorian chant but these days find it a little too cool and cerebral, as beautiful as it is. I prefer the dissonant harmonies of Tavener, and the gutsier feel of Russian Orthodox music.

- And then there's Jewish music ... in particular the Sephardic tradition. I love how Eastern it is.

My vicar, for what it's worth, is a big fan of Christian heavy metal. I should tell him about OTBS!

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He might be disappointed. Though we did have some metal in the background music during the meal after the service on Sunday.

I understand we're in the local paper today. Mrs KLB is going to buy a copy to see what they're saying. I understood the reporter arrived in time for morning prayer (said - as in CofE churches up and down the country, daily morning prayer is the vicar and one or two others) and stayed for a coffee.
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
I might be proven wrong, but my guess would be that your local paper will cover the story in a more balanced way than has been the case so far.
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
@Rosa Winkel

I don't like 'chart stuff' either and I suspect my disdain comes out in my demeanour whenever this sort of thing is mentioned ... which isn't very often, come to think of it.

Come to think of it too, I can't remember the last time I met a heavy-metal fan in the flesh ... I did have a colleague about seven or eight years ago who was into that 'industrial' German heavy-metal sound - Rundstrum was it?

I don't know much about it. Sounded like a bunch of industrial generators to me.

I used to mildly take the piss, it is true.

He was quite charming, a bit of a geek. He dressed very conventionally at work but outside of it would wear the HM gear. But he had very short hair so it didn't look right.

Perhaps I'm all bourgeois and everything but I don't just don't seem to come across metallers. The average age in the town where I live is positively geriatric. I'm seen as a young un ...

Since moving down here I'd say that the average age of my friends and acquaintances has gone up by about 10 years. Most people I knock around with down here are probably between 5 and 10 years older than me and arguably at 51 or '2 (I can never remember which) I'm already an old git.
 

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Posted by Rosa Winkel (# 11424) on :
 
Aha, I've remembered my other point.

There is the consideration whether heavy metal is working class. Certainly, Black Sabbath have not only been described as such in the Guardian and on this this interesting political party page but Tony Iommi himself spoke of how his heavy music was influenced by the heavy noises he was hearing at work (see here). Certainly, other classic bands came out of the Midlands such as Judas Priest and to a lesser extent (in terms of heaviness) Led Zeppelin.

I would say that the early days of metal deffo was deffo working-class (though I guess other forms of music such as punk and hardcore were the same). The thing is, while pop went into New Romanticism which had upper class aspirations, metal stayed gritty. Of course, there was some fantasy, but this seems to not have been about aspiration.

I guess that in the US metal was working-class in the 80s. Certainly the classic bands of that time such as Slayer, Metallica, Megadeth, Anthrax, Exodus and Testament were largely (as far as I can recall) comprised of working-class members.

In any case, your talk of being an art student perhaps hints not at economic class, but rather that of the type of education. I studied business and most of my fellow students were into dance, which focussed more on good times. The metal fans tended to be computer scientists or engineers (which may mean that the issue is not education of class, but rather gender role). I mean, metal fans (in the gigs and discos I've attended) are into good times, but the music tends to be more focussed on heavier subjects.

I think things have changed now, though. Many young metal fans appear to be of the bourgeoisie.

Whatever, this would explain some of the prejudice that metal fans receive, it can be class or education based.

Maybe.
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
Oh yes, I'd agree with that. I was around in the '70s and metal was certainly a working-class thing. As you've said, Tony Iommi was influenced by the thump and grind he had to put up with in the foundry all day long. He also lost part of his hand in an industrial accident which explains his distinctive guitar style.

I'm quite happy to hold up my hand and admit to a certain amount of snobbery towards heavy-metal. Guilty as charged. It's an arts/humanities snobbery. It's an I'm-hipper-than-you-because-I-got-switched-onto-Punk-rather-than-Prog snobbery (even though I was a Johnny-Come-Lately to the punk thing and only just got into it in the nick of time ...)

I'm more than happy to accept all that. I'm that post-modern and self-aware.



But the main thing I have against heavy-metal is that it's shite.



Seriously, back to the plot ... all these things are culturally and socially determined. There's no way around that.

I've not got an engineering bone in my body and I've clashed with engineers in the work-place (those who've gone into general management) because they and I don't function the same way. That doesn't mean that I don't like engineers nor admire engineers - I do. I think engineering is great and much maligned. I think it's quite creative. I wish it had a higher status in the UK and was regarded more on a par with the level and status it is accorded in Germany and Japan.

I wouldn't say I was jealous of engineers, though, or had anything against the science bods and computer geeks. They obviously have a meal-ticket that I don't have access to ... arty farty bastards like me are in and out of work and don't fit into corporate culture very well. The engineers can get away with it better than I can because they have skills that people need and can do things that other people can't.

But I remember a punk poet declaiming, when I was at university:

'A rugby shirt, a Snoopy-clock, 15 pints of beer.
Put them together and what have you got? A Chemical Engineer.'

Which sort of summed it up.
 

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Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on :
 
Rosa wrote:

quote:

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One Iron Maiden fan is not representative of all Iron Maiden fans.

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quote:

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I have the impression that Eddie is a fun-figure for Maiden fans (I say that based on having seen the Maiden live in GB and Poland and met with countless fans from across Europe of different ages).

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quote:

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I wouldn't say I was jealous of engineers, though, or had anything against the science bods and computer geeks. They obviously have a meal-ticket that I don't have access to ... arty farty bastards like me are in and out of work and don't fit into corporate culture very well. The engineers can get away with it better than I can because they have skills that people need and can do things that other people can't.

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Get your stereotypes right! You are confusing engineers and scientists! Very different kinds of stage personalities, at least in an academic environment. For example, engineers are widely assumed to be on the whole politically right-wing (as are army officers, sportsmen, and professional pilots), but scientists are notoriously likely to be left-wing (along with journalists and musicians - supposedly the two most left-wing professions)

Retreating from the sierras of stereotype to the fertile fields of anecdote, it is certainly the case that scientists in universities are often very cultured in an arty sort of way. They are very likely to read literary novels, listen to classical music, etc etc. They almost always know much more about things like history and literature than historians or whatever-the-collective-noun-for-those-who-study-literature-is-es do about science. And just like everyone else they also tend to know about things like TV and pop music and sport and beer and food and all the ordinary things of life. On the whole they are likely to have a wider range of interests and knowledge than other academics. In my experience anyway.

Also science doesn't pay very well!

Engineers on the other hand...
 

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Posted by Rosa Winkel (# 11424) on :
 
Stetson, there has certainly always been a branch of metal that takes itself very seriously. I don't think Ozzy does.

When I saw the Maiden two years ago in Warsaw, the great majority of people I saw (and there were tens of thousands of us) were in their late-teens and early-twenties. Also when I saw Judas Priest in Katowice (both times) there were older people, but still plenty of the same age group.

The Warsaw fans were shite, by the way. In Katowice though, a very working-class by Polish standards, industrial workers area, the fans were totally sound. Katowice has produced plenty metal bands. (I am the only person in Poland, I think, who has such a theory of Katowice metal fans.)

To continue the class thing, things like opera and classical music were things I associated, when I was a teenager with the Tories, posh people and the BCP. Now I love two of those things. Madchester and rave were for apolitical yobs.

The Manics were totally me. Political, anti-pop, working-class, intellectual and against misogyny (including in metal, though they like heavy metal) and angry, very angry. Now they're pop The one time I went to Greenbelt in 2003 a non-conformist pastor from the south (of Wales) gave a talk about the Manics and Christianity, approvingly using their early songs (till The Holy Bible) in order to show the Gospel.

[ 28. February 2013, 19:15: Message edited by: Rosa Winkel ]
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
What makes fans shite, Rosa Winkel?

How do you distinguish between fans that are 'shite' and fans which are 'sound'?

I know I've been making ad hominem remarks here, but I'd baulk at describing the afficionados of any genre as 'shite' - even if I think the music itself is pretty crap - which is my opinion of Iron Maiden's music I'm afraid.

@ken - yes, you are right to make that distinction between scientists and engineers. I should have made myself clearer. It is a distinction I would also make and share.
 

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Posted by Rosa Winkel (# 11424) on :
 
I meant in terms of making a good atmosphere and knowing the songs. In Warsaw during the intro-tape before Iron Maiden I was right at the front and people were just standing around. In Katowice people were shouting well before the band came on stage.

Then again, the concert in Warsaw was a festival. Of course, most there were Iron Maiden fans, but still. It was the same the year before when Metallica/Slayer/Megadeth/Anthrax played, the first time the big four had played together. Many missed Anthrax!
 

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Posted by Edgeman (# 12867) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:


Plus, if you add hardcore/crust, anti-fascism is very strong there (though there are some minor Nazi hardcore bands; Germany at the moment sees a renaissance of such bands, though here in Poland they're certainly on the left, being straight edge at the least).

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