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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Is eternal damnation fair?
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
Given that the worse thing we can do in our Earthly lives is probably to kill someone, and given the average lifespan of humans as around 80 years, it follows that the maximum amount of Earthly life we can take from someone is about 80 years before they would have died anyway.
Given that, is it fair or just that someone should suffer in hell for eternity? The punishment doesn’t seem to fit the crime!
Even Hitler, with say, the blood of 20 million on his hands, will have taken away (80 * 20 million) 1.6 billion years of life. Is it just that he spends 1.6 billion years and 1 day in hell for that crime? Even spending 1.6 billion years, is literally nothing compared to eternity, so where is the justice in eternal damnation?
Given that murder is the worst thing we can do, it is even more egregious to send someone to hell for eternity for something less, such as not believing in God. Where is the justice in that?
Can any punishment for eternity ever be fair or just for a sin committed in this Earthly life that is, by definition, limited in its impact by our own lifespans. We can only hurt people for a finite amount of time, so why punish them for infinity?
Isn’t there a biblical verse about the punishment fitting the crime?
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Didn't we have this one a month or two back?
Generated more heat than light IIRC.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Dinghy Sailor
Ship's Jibsheet
# 8507
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Posted
Yes, it's fair. What's really unfair is grace - but I'm not going to say no if God is offering me free forgiveness.
Turn your question around: Are we entitled to eternal life?
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Preach Christ, because this old humanity has used up all hopes and expectations, but in Christ hope lives and remains.
Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Posts: 2821 | Registered: Sep 2004
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Lord Jestocost
Shipmate
# 12909
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Posted
You're viewing Hell as a punishment (which is indeed a traditional though unhelpful viewpoint) rather than the default state of fallen humanity. As a punishment, no, it's not fair, which is one reason I don't believe in it. As a default state, however, it's no more unfair than the fact that if you walk over a cliff then you will plummet to your death, whether or not you believe in gravity, or saw the cliff coming, or whatever.
I know that then opens a whole truckload of other cans of worms, but it's a start ...
Posts: 761 | From: The Instrumentality of Man | Registered: Aug 2007
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
I recommend for your reading pleasure If Grace Is True: Why God Will Save Every Person by Philip Gulley and James Mulholland.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
Eternity is not, strictly speaking, an infinite number of years, so it's not really possible to speak of it in deano's utilitarian terms.
Or so it went the last time around the block.
[ 22. February 2013, 14:24: Message edited by: Zach82 ]
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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goperryrevs
Shipmtae
# 13504
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dinghy Sailor:
Yes, it's fair. What's really unfair is grace - but I'm not going to say no if God is offering me free forgiveness.
Turn your question around: Are we entitled to eternal life?
Are they the only two options? What about eternal mediocrity, or non-eternity?
For me, it's totally not fair, and goes against the character of God that we see in Jesus and scripture.
But as Karl said, we've had a few threads on this before, so I'm not sure I have much new to add from previous discussions.
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"Keep your eye on the donut, not on the hole." - David Lynch
Posts: 2098 | From: Midlands | Registered: Mar 2008
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by goperryrevs:
Are they the only two options? What about eternal mediocrity, or non-eternity?
For me, it's totally not fair, and goes against the character of God that we see in Jesus and scripture.
But as Karl said, we've had a few threads on this before, so I'm not sure I have much new to add from previous discussions.
I dunno. God gets pretty wrathful in the scriptures, and it gets pretty hard to explain away sometimes.
"Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat?
I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment.
For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come." Isaiah 63:2-4
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
I don't think the issue is how God is sometimes portrayed in Scripture. It's trying to justify that portrayal and reconcile it with God being love, mercy and all that that gives folks issues, methinks.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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gorpo
Shipmate
# 17025
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Posted
What about the children of those who were dead, who didn´t have the oportunity to be born? And what if eternity cannot be measured in years? The problem with this logic ("I don´t think it´s fair, therefore it cannot be true") is that it means God should obbey whatever human beings think is fair (and that changes a lot through the years...). Therefore, God should obbey our human laws and not the other way around! It sounds ridiculous.
Posts: 247 | From: Brazil | Registered: Apr 2012
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dinghy Sailor:
Turn your question around: Are we entitled to eternal life?
According to traditional Christian thought on the matter, yes we are. In fact, there's nothing we can do to avoid eternal life. It's simply a question of how unpleasant that eternal life will be.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
I don't see the idea of a conscious, eternal punishing taught in the bible.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I don't think the issue is how God is sometimes portrayed in Scripture. It's trying to justify that portrayal and reconcile it with God being love, mercy and all that that gives folks issues, methinks.
How does one justify any portrayal of God? The God of love is not any more justified, humanly speaking, than this wrathful God that is trampling his enemies like grapes.
God is love, and God is wrathful about injustice. We don't have to reconcile them.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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goperryrevs
Shipmtae
# 13504
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:
Originally posted by goperryrevs:
Are they the only two options? What about eternal mediocrity, or non-eternity?
I dunno. God gets pretty wrathful in the scriptures, and it gets pretty hard to explain away sometimes.
I meant from a logical point of view, rather than a scriptural one - I think on a bunch of issues stuff gets presented as if there are only two alternatives - creation or evolution, eternal life or eternal punishment, etc.
As with many things, there are actually a whole load of other options. I agree with Dinghy Sailor that eternal life is unfair (but in a good way). Eternal punishment is unfair too, unless the person being eternally punished is continuously doing something during that punishment that means that they deserve more punishment. But even then, the eternity is not a given, because the person could stop doing those things.
In terms of Scripture, God does get wrathful, and rightly so. Evil deserves wrath, but God is also patient, loving and forgiving. The truth, ISTM, is holding both those extremes as great and true, rather than watering down either of them. The doctrine of eternal punishment waters down the love and mercy of God too much, just as forms of universalism water down his righteousness and justice too much.
Damnation is not in God's nature, he doesn't condemn us, we condemn ourselves. Any suffering we undergo in the next life will be self-imposed. God does discipline and chastise us, but that is a different thing to damnation and retributive punishment. God doesn't do those things.
But, we've been here before, haven't we Zach? ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) I'm just waiting for Ingo to come along to remind us that infinite punishment is fair because it is a consequence of sin against an infinite God...
(Edit for clarity... Or at least I hope...)
[ 22. February 2013, 14:53: Message edited by: goperryrevs ]
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"Keep your eye on the donut, not on the hole." - David Lynch
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by goperryrevs:
In terms of Scripture, God does get wrathful, and rightly so. Evil deserves wrath, but God is also patient, loving and forgiving. The truth, ISTM, is holding both those extremes as great and true, rather than watering down either of them. The doctrine of eternal punishment waters down the love and mercy of God too much, just as forms of universalism water down his righteousness and justice too much.
Spot on.
My own denomination (PCUSA) says something similar:
quote:
Jesus Christ is the only Savior and Lord, and all people everywhere are called to place their faith, hope, and love in him. No one is saved by virtue of inherent goodness or admirable living, for "by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God" [Eph. 2:8]. No one is saved apart from God's gracious redemption in Jesus Christ. Yet we do not presume to limit the sovereign freedom of "God our Savior, who desires everyone to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth" [1 Tim. 2:4]. Thus, we neither restrict the grace of God to those who profess explicit faith in Christ nor assume that all people are saved regardless of faith. Grace, love, and communion belong to God, and are not ours to determine.
[ 22. February 2013, 14:57: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by goperryrevs:
Damnation is not in God's nature, he doesn't condemn us, we condemn ourselves. Any suffering we undergo in the next life will be self-imposed. God does discipline and chastise us, but that is a different thing to damnation and retributive punishment. God doesn't do those things.
Isn't that the excuse torturers always use? "Why are you forcing me to do this to you?"
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
quote:
Originally posted by goperryrevs:
Damnation is not in God's nature, he doesn't condemn us, we condemn ourselves. Any suffering we undergo in the next life will be self-imposed. God does discipline and chastise us, but that is a different thing to damnation and retributive punishment. God doesn't do those things.
Isn't that the excuse torturers always use? "Why are you forcing me to do this to you?"
I think the point is that if people are in hell, they are there because of their free choice. If my child doesn't want to join the party and stays outside sulking, I usually leave him or her alone. Should I want to physically compel him to come in and say "You MUST have fun?"
Now of course, being that God is the source of all life and love, to reject God means necessarily to reject life and love. It seems profoundly irrational, but then evil is irrational.
I do think as Christians, we have to at least entertain the possibility that people can get fed up with their self-imposed exile and come in the door. So, salvation in the afterlife in my view is a possibility.
But then again, none of us have been there yet, so what do we know about the afterlife?
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It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
Posts: 4332 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
I gotta go with Croesos on this one. One cannot let God off the hook over damnation, him being the creator of the system after all. We should be wary of pat answers that explain these problems away too easily.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
quote:
Originally posted by goperryrevs:
Damnation is not in God's nature, he doesn't condemn us, we condemn ourselves. Any suffering we undergo in the next life will be self-imposed. God does discipline and chastise us, but that is a different thing to damnation and retributive punishment. God doesn't do those things.
Isn't that the excuse torturers always use? "Why are you forcing me to do this to you?"
I think the point is that if people are in hell, they are there because of their free choice. If my child doesn't want to join the party and stays outside sulking, I usually leave him or her alone. Should I want to physically compel him to come in and say "You MUST have fun?"
But the OP is about the notion of "eternal torment", so the analogy is not just about a child missing some fun, but rather a child missing some fun to stand out in the middle of a busy highway in the path of an oncoming bus. I rather think you WOULD physically compel him to come in.
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
[qb]
But then again, none of us have been there yet, so what do we know about the afterlife?
Spot on. This is all speculative-- which is fine, it's what we do on the Ship, and our own version of great fun. But in the end, Scripture tells us simply that there is an afterlife, and that God is there. That's really all we need to know.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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EtymologicalEvangelical
Shipmate
# 15091
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Posted
In my view, the love of God is hell for those who hate that love.
This view is often countered with the claim that no one would find exposure to eternal love and mercy an unpleasant experience. I deeply disagree with that.
I would have thought that love is the very last thing the proud and arrogant person desires to be exposed to (other than love of self). I speak with fear and trembling...
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
Posts: 3625 | From: South Coast of England | Registered: Sep 2009
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
Now of course, being that God is the source of all life and love, to reject God means necessarily to reject life and love. It seems profoundly irrational, but then evil is irrational.
Doesn't this reasoning imply that all non-Christians are irrational and evil?
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Hawk
Semi-social raptor
# 14289
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by gorpo:
The problem with this logic ("I don´t think it´s fair, therefore it cannot be true") is that it means God should obbey whatever human beings think is fair (and that changes a lot through the years...). Therefore, God should obbey our human laws and not the other way around! It sounds ridiculous.
The logic for me goes: does this theology sound like the fair and just God as revealed in scripture? The one who claimed that he will repay each according to their sin, no more, no less. And the God who would rather humble Himself and go to the cross rather than see the worst sinner among us perish.
For me, the theology of eternal conscious torture goes directly against the revelation of God in scripture. It is also illogical in that eternal life is described as a gift of God for those who beleive in him, and the opposite is promised for those others who don't. The opposite of eternal life is eternal death surely, not eternal life just the same, with added pitchforks so you won't enjoy it.
Scripture never once mentions the eternal conscious torture of unbelievers as their penalty, except in a parable which is obviously not meant to be taken literally (since in it apprently people in Hell can have a chat with people in Heaven whenever they want). The penalty is decribed mainly by the metaphor of being thrown into an unquenchable fire, which can only mean being consumed and destroyed utterly, since this is what happens when you throw things into a fire. It's also called the second death, and eternal destruction. Both phrases surely referring to an end, rather than a continuance, of conscious existence.
I beleive that God is love, but he is also just. He won't force anyone to accept his free gift of eternal life. And if people choose to go into the eternal blackness of death instead then that will be their just punishment.
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“We are to find God in what we know, not in what we don't know." Dietrich Bonhoeffer
See my blog for 'interesting' thoughts
Posts: 1739 | From: Oxford, UK | Registered: Nov 2008
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
Now of course, being that God is the source of all life and love, to reject God means necessarily to reject life and love. It seems profoundly irrational, but then evil is irrational.
Doesn't this reasoning imply that all non-Christians are irrational and evil?
No, it implies all sinners are irrational. In fact, Christian sinners are really the ones who are irrational-- we claim that God is good, that he wants only the best for us, and that he is wise and knows what is the best for us. And yet we (and by we I mean me) constantly choose something other than God's way.
Call me Crazy.
[ 22. February 2013, 15:19: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by [not]Crœsos:
But then again, none of us have been there yet, so what do we know about the afterlife?
Spot on.
That was actually Anglican_Brat's comment, not mine. Credit where credit is due.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by [not]Crœsos:
But then again, none of us have been there yet, so what do we know about the afterlife?
Spot on.
That was actually Anglican_Brat's comment, not mine. Credit where credit is due.
oops, yes, picked up wrong tag line on that. My bad. Thanks for the correction.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Wilfried
Shipmate
# 12277
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Posted
No, it is not fair. Humans are finite, and our sins our finite, so how can infinite torment for finite transgression be fair?
And why the presumption that eternal hellfire and damnation is the default state? The sheol of the Hebrew Bible was rather grey, dreary, and dull, with little mention of eternal damnation, nor of heavenly bliss for that matter. Some mediocre middle seems to be the default of this world too. In various times and places the world can (too often) descend into hellishness, but it's doesn't last forever (and there can be temporary golden ages of prosperity too). Why should default state of God's kingdom be worse? And if love, mercy, and grace define God, why would his kingdom default to the very opposite?
Posts: 429 | From: Lefty on the Right Coast | Registered: Jan 2007
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
ISTM that the judgement day spoken of in the Bible is not meant to be a threat as much as a promise, a promise that the God of true justice will ensure that justice is done, in good time.
None of us is perfect. Therefore, if heaven and hell were about good and bad thoughts and deeds, we'd all be split in two at the time of judgement, with a lesser or greater amount allocated to each. ![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif)
If salvation for those who believe in Christ Jesus means that they 'will not perish' (John 3:16), we have an indication that those who are not saved will no longer exist. None of us can reckon on being saved, we can only live in hope and trust in God's mercy.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
Now of course, being that God is the source of all life and love, to reject God means necessarily to reject life and love. It seems profoundly irrational, but then evil is irrational.
Doesn't this reasoning imply that all non-Christians are irrational and evil?
I didn't equate "rejecting God" with being non-Christian.
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
Posts: 4332 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007
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EtymologicalEvangelical
Shipmate
# 15091
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dinghy Sailor
Yes, it's fair. What's really unfair is grace - but I'm not going to say no if God is offering me free forgiveness.
Turn your question around: Are we entitled to eternal life?
We may not be 'entitled' to eternal life, but neither are we entitled to earthly life, since we did not earn it. The concept of 'entitlement' is completely meaningless in the context of man's relationship to God, since everything comes from Him anyway. If God did not want to give us eternal life, then He would not have granted us earthly life. Why would God start something that He could not finish? After all, we can't imagine God saying the following to a redeemed person in heaven: "I am now bringing your life in heaven to an end, because you are not entitled to it, just like I brought your earthly life to an end, because you were not entitled to that." So why would God think it fair only to grant life to someone on earth, but withhold it in the eternal age to come?
And it is certainly grotesquely unfair for God to deliberately bring us into a world where we become automatically infected with a sinful nature, and then declare that, on the basis of that sin nature, we deserve to burn in the fires of hell for all eternity. None of us ever asked to be born into a fallen world! We were never consulted as to whether we wanted to be preprogrammed with original sin. We never made any choice to embrace original sin, because original sin cannot, by definition, be chosen.
To say that God is just in creating people in this way, and declaring that we all deserve to go to hell on the basis of something we inherited which none of us can help or resist in our own strength, and then to say that His solution to the problem is 'unfair', is tantamount to saying that God is not a morally responsible being, but entirely capricious.
Everything flows from God's grace, and this grace IS fair, because God is fair. God loves justice. Therefore everything that comes from God is consistent with justice. To say that grace is 'unfair' is to say that God is unfair, and therefore God rejects justice. And if God rejects justice, then His Word is a lie, which states clearly that God loves justice and hates injustice (see Isaiah 61:8 or Deuteronomy 32:4). Mercy is just. If mercy were unjust, then it could not flow from God, because there is no injustice in God. Hence 1 John 1:9 - "If we confess our sins, He is faithful AND JUST to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."
Of course, there are those who deliberately choose to reject the love of God. The eternal life that God gives to such people will be an extremely painful and traumatic experience. This is known as 'hell'. It is not a fate which is 'deserved', in the same way that someone who deliberately walks over the edge of a cliff does not 'deserve' to have his skull crushed on the rocks below. That fate is a consequence of a choice. Nothing to do with "just deserts" meted out by a fanatical legalist.
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
Posts: 3625 | From: South Coast of England | Registered: Sep 2009
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EtymologicalEvangelical
Shipmate
# 15091
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Croesos
Isn't that the excuse torturers always use? "Why are you forcing me to do this to you?"
OK, so a child who has a screaming tantrum is being forced to have that tantrum by his evil, torturing parents?
I suppose really they ought to just give in to him, and give him whatever he wants...
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
Posts: 3625 | From: South Coast of England | Registered: Sep 2009
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
quote:
Originally posted by Croesos
Isn't that the excuse torturers always use? "Why are you forcing me to do this to you?"
OK, so a child who has a screaming tantrum is being forced to have that tantrum by his evil, torturing parents?
quote:
Father arrested after burning sons' hands as discipline
Twin 6-year-old boys remained hospitalized Monday after police say their father put their hands under scalding hot water as a form of discipline.
<snip>
While investigating that case, officers noticed twin 6-year-old boys each had one or both of their hands severely burned, said Sandy Police Sgt. John Arnold. One of the boys also had blood on his face, mouth, nose, legs and chest as if he had been punched in the nose, he said.
Their hands looked as if they had been placed under boiling water, according to jail documents detailing police observations. One boy was, "crying and waiving his hands around because it hurt him so bad," the report stated.
What a little whiner! Throwing a tantrum just because he'd been given the old "lake of fire" punishment. Clearly a case that calls for further discipline. ![[Mad]](angryfire.gif)
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
I'm not even sure we can properly choose to enter into God's love or reject it for eternity!
As humans we can have no real sense or experience of 'eternity'. So our choice can only be made from the basis of our 'human' experience of time from seconds and minutes up to the decades that make up a natural human lifespan.
How can we make a choice if we don't understand the options, nor have any concept of how long we are being tied in for?
In my opinion, we cannot, unless after death God implants the proper knowledge and experience into us to be able to make a proper choice.
It's why I am a universalist. I understand it can be proof-texted to show it is wrong, but anything less is a miscarriage of justice, or a con trick!
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
I'm not even sure we can properly choose to enter into God's love or reject it for eternity!
As humans we can have no real sense or experience of 'eternity'. So our choice can only be made from the basis of our 'human' experience of time from seconds and minutes up to the decades that make up a natural human lifespan.
How can we make a choice if we don't understand the options, nor have any concept of how long we are being tied in for?
In my opinion, we cannot, unless after death God implants the proper knowledge and experience into us to be able to make a proper choice...
And that, dear chum, is why salvation is about grace, and not works.
quote:
It's why I am a universalist. I understand it can be proof-texted to show it is wrong, but anything less is a miscarriage of justice, or a con trick!
Do you have any idea that the True God is not the image of God in your mind that fits comfortably with your moral sensibilities?
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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W Hyatt
Shipmate
# 14250
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
How can we make a choice if we don't understand the options, nor have any concept of how long we are being tied in for?
In my opinion, we cannot, unless after death God implants the proper knowledge and experience into us to be able to make a proper choice.
Or unless the choice God presents us with is not an intellectual "which do you choose: A or B?" so much as a "what kind of person do you choose to be?"
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A new church and a new earth, with Spiritual Insights for Everyday Life.
Posts: 1565 | From: U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
I don't see how one can reconcile "If you're in Hell it's because you chose to be" with "God is trampling down his enemies like grapes." The latter is definitely in the "I'll get you for that" camp; it is incompatible with the former.
And I don't think the old "You're judging God by your own standards" canard floats. No, we're judging God by HIS standards, as HE told us in HIS book.
[ 22. February 2013, 19:14: Message edited by: mousethief ]
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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EtymologicalEvangelical
Shipmate
# 15091
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Croesos
Father arrested after burning sons' hands as discipline
Twin 6-year-old boys remained hospitalized Monday after police say their father put their hands under scalding hot water as a form of discipline.
etc...
Ah, so all parents, whose children have tantrums, are evil torturers?
I never knew that!
(Because if there are any parents, whose children have tantrums, who are not evil torturers, then my original comment stands. It does not follow that God is necessarily an evil torturer if he has children who have eternal tantrums, described figuratively with the imagery of fire.)
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
Posts: 3625 | From: South Coast of England | Registered: Sep 2009
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by W Hyatt:
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
How can we make a choice if we don't understand the options, nor have any concept of how long we are being tied in for?
In my opinion, we cannot, unless after death God implants the proper knowledge and experience into us to be able to make a proper choice.
Or unless the choice God presents us with is not an intellectual "which do you choose: A or B?" so much as a "what kind of person do you choose to be?"
Even that doesn't work in Heaven, or with God's full and eternal love swirling around us, because we cannot make the choice without the knowledge of the different people we can be in Heaven. Yes, we can on Earth, to an extent, but not for eternity, after death. Unless we are given the experiences we still have no context to make the decisions on.
To use an analogy from upthread, it isn't that we are stood outside the party, not wanting to go in because we are having a tantrum, it's that (a) we are having a tantrum and in parallel, but completely unconnected, (b) we don't know what a party is, and what we will get from it!
[ 22. February 2013, 19:38: Message edited by: deano ]
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
I don't see how one can reconcile "If you're in Hell it's because you chose to be" with "God is trampling down his enemies like grapes." The latter is definitely in the "I'll get you for that" camp; it is incompatible with the former.
And I don't think the old "You're judging God by your own standards" canard floats. No, we're judging God by HIS standards, as HE told us in HIS book.
Well, all the above images are in HIS book. You work it out without dismissing half the equation.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
. . . is it fair or just that someone should suffer in hell for eternity? . . . Isn’t there a biblical verse about the punishment fitting the crime?
Given that this supposed God has allegedly created and also allegedly controls or manages or at least takes some sort of mildly interventionist interest in the whole of creation, I really don't see where "fair" and "just" come into this issue. Such notions can materialize only if we assume that "fairness" and "justice" are permanent attributes of this alleged God. Even if we can credibly posit this, we'd still have to raise questions about fair and/or just to whom, and about what, and according to whose standards, and on what basis: all his. Or hers.
It seems to me that there are lots of unstated assumptions underlying this idea, and I can't honestly see much point to pursuing them. The God portrayed in Hebrew and Christian scriptures seem far more invested in human obedience to divine will than in anything else; and if this alleged God were actually concerned about human welfare-justice-fairness (and also had even the slightest clue what human existence is actually like -- aging, aching, tiring, sorrowing, suffering, and equipped with a capacity for boredom), said God would not have conjured up speculations re: eternal life in the first place. It's a hideous prospect, if you ask me. Hell and damnation needn't even come into it.
Seriously: will you be up for harp-twanging, however metaphorical, after the galaxies burn out?
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
The God portrayed in Hebrew and Christian scriptures seem far more invested in human obedience to divine will than in anything else; and if this alleged God were actually concerned about human welfare-justice-fairness (and also had even the slightest clue what human existence is actually like -- aging, aching, tiring, sorrowing, suffering, and equipped with a capacity for boredom), said God would not have conjured up speculations re: eternal life in the first place...
Wow, it doesn't seem to me that you've read much of the Bible.
The God of the Christian Bible longs for a relationship with humankind, is profoundly concerned with justice and peace in the here and now, and waits until almost the very end to throw out only vague hints of the afterlife.
Heck, you don't seem to have even the slightest awareness of the Passion!
[ 22. February 2013, 21:42: Message edited by: Zach82 ]
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:
The God portrayed in Hebrew and Christian scriptures seem far more invested in human obedience to divine will than in anything else; . . .
Wow, it doesn't seem to me that you've read much of the Bible.
The God of the Christian Bible longs for a relationship with humankind, . . .
These aren't contradictory. Demanding obedience is a kind of relationship.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
Demanding obedience is a kind of relationship.
Master/slave is a relationship.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
the maximum amount of Earthly life we can take from someone is about 80 years before they would have died anyway.
Given that, is it fair or just that someone should suffer in hell for eternity? The punishment doesn’t seem to fit the crime!
What if the crime from God's viewpoint is not the murder itself, but the justifying a murder as "good"? Then hell is not "punishment" (I don't believe God punishes) for a single past deed of limited effect, hell is an ongoing response to an ongoing crime of destructive attitude. Repent/turn/change your attitude, you are no longer in hell.
Do we at some point become so hardened in an attitude we cannot change? Habits are really hard to break even when we know they hurt us.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
the maximum amount of Earthly life we can take from someone is about 80 years before they would have died anyway.
Given that, is it fair or just that someone should suffer in hell for eternity? The punishment doesn’t seem to fit the crime!
What if the crime from God's viewpoint is not the murder itself, but the justifying a murder as "good"? Then hell is not "punishment" (I don't believe God punishes) for a single past deed of limited effect, hell is an ongoing response to an ongoing crime of destructive attitude. Repent/turn/change your attitude, you are no longer in hell.
Do we at some point become so hardened in an attitude we cannot change? Habits are really hard to break even when we know they hurt us.
Call me crazy, but I think murdering is worse than some dodgy ethical conclusions about murder.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
What if the crime from God's viewpoint is not the murder itself, but the justifying a murder as "good"? Then hell is not "punishment" (I don't believe God punishes) for a single past deed of limited effect, hell is an ongoing response to an ongoing crime of destructive attitude. Repent/turn/change your attitude, you are no longer in hell.
Do we at some point become so hardened in an attitude we cannot change? Habits are really hard to break even when we know they hurt us.
Hell as Room 101? Interesting idea.
quote:
But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Big Brother.
This goes back to the Torturer's Justification. "Why are you making me do this to you? This can stop any time you want. You just have to cooperate."
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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EtymologicalEvangelical
Shipmate
# 15091
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Croesos
Demanding obedience is a kind of relationship.
You make obedience sound like a terrible thing.
I tend to think the opposite is the case. For example, disobedience is pretty horrible when out on the road. I rather like the fact that most drivers obey the rules of the road. After all, the rules are there for our benefit and well-being.
And I suppose in any love relationship there is no concept of 'obedience' to that relationship, is there? "Hey, love, you go off and have affairs with whomever you like. No probs..."
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
Posts: 3625 | From: South Coast of England | Registered: Sep 2009
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
And I suppose in any love relationship there is no concept of 'obedience' to that relationship, is there? "Hey, love, you go off and have affairs with whomever you like. No probs..."
That should not be about obedience, but commitment.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Damnation is so oversold and much loved by those who want to control others. It appeals to humans baser instincts, about revenge I think, and projects onto God characteristics we see within ourselves.
So, no, it is not fair, and most probably doesn't exist in the form that we imagine, and what those humans who wrote up the bible suggest. I like the explanations provided with CS Lewis' writings, where it is suggested that the damnation, or hell, is constructed within the life and intentions of the individual, such that it really is only a logical next step of a person's existence, and fully a product of their own choices. God doesn't do the damning, rather, God simply gives what the person asks for, with the questions continually asked, and probably never too late, but unfortunately made in directions such the individual cannot see that they've made a choice, so practiced they are in their restricted damnable hellish way of thinking and being.
So the fairness issues has to come back to that of free will and whether it is fair that the world, and humans within it, are characterised by full choice and full free well. Should humanity have been characterised by free will? If yes, then, it is fair to be damned. If no, then, it is unfair.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Lewis was a vast pessimist, He failed to see the power of God.
Jesus SAVES.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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