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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: The Roman Catholic Church 100 years from now
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moron
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# 206
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Posted
Maybe I'm conflating his take on truth generally with the RCC but whatever ![[Smile]](smile.gif) - I enjoy Chesterton:
quote:
It is always easy to let the age have its head; the difficult thing is to keep one’s own.
It is always easy to be a modernist; as it is easy to be a snob. To have fallen into any of those open traps of error and exaggeration which fashion after fashion and sect after sect set along the historic path of Christendom—that would indeed have been simple.
It is always simple to fall; there are an infinity of angles at which one falls, only one at which one stands. To have fallen into any one of the fads from Gnosticism to Christian Science would indeed have been obvious and tame.
But to have avoided them all has been one whirling adventure; and in my vision the heavenly chariot flies thundering through the ages, the dull heresies sprawling and prostrate, the wild truth reeling but erect.
So: what will the Roman Catholic Church be in 100 years?
TIA for any thoughts.
Posts: 4236 | From: Bentonville | Registered: May 2001
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Desert Daughter
Shipmate
# 13635
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Posted
We will all have become Tibetan Buddhists ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
Believing in the Dalai Lama to reincarnate might look just as outlandish to a rationalist as believing that the Holy Spirit guides a conclave. But at least the Chattering Classes treat Buddhists with respect, because they are... cute ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
But seriously, tendencies in all faiths unfortunately go to either oblivion or fundamentalism. I fear that our Church will see some schisms within the next 100 years. We will get trad-caths on one side (Opus Dei & their friends), and modernists (who will accept priests who are married and even female ![[Eek!]](eek.gif) , make sure vwe all hold hands durin the consecration of the Host ) and otherwise will look quite a bit like low-church CofE on the other.
And a forlorn bunch in between who like Bells & Smells, still wrestle with Christology (no happy-clappy Jesus-people here!) , don't think the whole woman business is all that important (they will first push for women to become diacons and the ordination of senior nuns, then see what happens)and wished they'd been born Orthodox (sorry, flippant again...)
Third World Catholicism will radicalise and become more and more Evangelical. Some interesting theological thought likely to emerge from India and Japan, which will be way too abstract to get any significant press which really is a big shame.
What will be lost forever (in a way it already is) is the wonderful fact that as a Catholic you can push the door of any church anywhere in the world and regardless of language you will feel at home.
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"Prayer is the rejection of concepts." (Evagrius Ponticus)
Posts: 733 | Registered: Apr 2008
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
The RCC will have remained the largest religious group in the world, and will probably have grown somewhat faster than world population (with world population starting to decrease). Most RCs will live in the "South" and "East", and her presence in the "North" and "West" will have been further reduced. However, her numbers there will have stabilized and typically will have held up significantly better than those of "classical" Protestant churches. In spite of this changed distribution of her lay members and potentially a good number of Southerners and Easterners high in the hierarchy (including the papacy), the "head" of the Church will have remained firmly in the North/West, with no major influence on universal theology or liturgy apparent (yet).
The remaining RCC in the North/West will be considerably more conservative than she is now, doctrinally. The "Reform of the Reform" also will be in full swing in matters liturgical. Most likely there will however not be some sort of "re-unification" with the extraordinary form of the Mass. Instead, this "double usage" will mark the beginning of a considerable diversification (again! to pre-Trent status quo) of the liturgy. This trend will not be as opposed centrally as one might expect, because it proves so convenient for inculturation in the growth zones of the faith.
There will have been a period of a sudden "exodus" of cultural RCs as the increasingly orthodox outlook of the Church crossed a psychological threshold of pain among dissenters. Quite possibly this will have given a final but transient lease of life to some "classical" Protestant denominations. If this exodus has not yet occurred, then it is about to occur. (The later it happens, the less impact on other denominations.)
With regards to the secular setting in the North/West, the RCC will have lost essentially all remaining status. RCs will be roughly in the same position that conservative Muslims are in now, i.e., in an uneasy truce that oscillates between ghetto formation and occasional culture skirmishes. Indeed, one of the difficult issues for Rome will be to maintain at the same time both the pressure on Islam in the growth zones of the faith, and the "brothers in arms" cooperation with Islam in the secular part of the world. In general however, Islam will not have grown as threat as much as a simple extrapolation would suggest now, as a range of factors will reduce its ability to compete.
The one potential modifier to all this will be Pentecostalism. If it continues to be highly successful, then the RCC may at this stage be well on her way to a counter-Pentecostalism, just as once a counter-Reformation was necessary. This will not mean a wholesale adoption though, but rather a combination of both accommodation and new combat strategies. Major innovations in liturgy, doctrine and to a more limited degree even in doctrine may come from this angle, rather than from the simple increase in numbers in the South/East.
There will have been no major reunifications with other denominations. But the Eastern Orthodox will be in all sorts of trouble, both external (secular hostility) and internal (rapid balkanization), and the unthinkable may have become rather thinkable among some of them. And to make a final daring prediction: Buddhism will not have continued its growth in the North/West, and will have resumed dying out slowly.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
I posit that some time around 3013AD the Orthodox will start to think about having their services entirely in English for those in the english speaking world. By around 4013AD the liturgy should be complete in its translation and the RC church in the West will quake at the sound of its surging.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
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Mudfrog
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# 8116
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Posted
The entire church will be 'triumphant'. Christ can't wait much longer, surely!
Maranatha!
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
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hatless
Shipmate
# 3365
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Posted
2113: The term Roman is dropped, since the church no longer has a centre. The description Catholic usually appears together with Pentecostal.
2103: Translocal congregations become the norm for most worshippers. They are invariably multi-denominational.
2093: Women priests outnumber men by three to one.
2083: Post-colonial theologies prove popular in the economically restructured West. Numbers of worshippers rise strongly.
2073: The church becomes a significant force in global politics by the simple expedient of becoming the most reliable international newsgathering organisation on the planet.
2063: In common with most other denominations, the Roman Catholic church stops holding any financial assets except locally and at very low levels (monthly income x6).
2053: The first women bishops are appointed directly from the laity.
2043: Third and First world dioceses exchange bishops.
2033: Seminaries' theological resources are directed to the laity.
2023: A formal and global process of listening to congregations begins.
2013: The conclave of March 2013 declines to elect a pope.
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My crazy theology in novel form
Posts: 4531 | From: Stinkers | Registered: Sep 2002
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Drewthealexander
Shipmate
# 16660
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
I posit that some time around 3013AD the Orthodox will start to think about having their services entirely in English for those in the english speaking world. By around 4013AD the liturgy should be complete in its translation and the RC church in the West will quake at the sound of its surging.
Given the trends in global demography, will there be an English speaking world in 3013?
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Zach82
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# 3208
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Posted
My guess is that three quarters of all churches in the West, of all denominations, will be closed. Maybe even more.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
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The Midge
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# 2398
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Posted
The entire church will be sucked up in the rapture. The last words uttered by the pope before departing heavenwards will be:
quote:
Well bugger me! The left behind series was right all along.
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Some days you are the fly.
On other days you are the windscreen.
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
My guess is that three quarters of all churches in the West, of all denominations, will be closed. Maybe even more.
There's a Canadian sociologist, Eric Kaufmann, whose thesis is that the future will actually be more religious rather than less. He mainly puts this down to demographics rather than conversions. He says that religious people throughout the world, i.e. in the West and elsewhere, tend to have more children than the less religious. This won't just affect 'fundamentalists', but stricter groups will benefit more than the moderately religious because they have more children, and the children are less likely to marry out. (I was surprised to hear that the Amish have grown so much since the early 1900s - as a British person I'd always just assumed they must be on the verge of dying out!) Immigration is important, of course, especially for Islam.
I haven't read Kaufmann's book yet, but there are some interesting videos of his talks on Youtube, e.g.:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7vCDeKPRSo
Kaufmann doesn't deny the effects of secularisation, and I don't think he's particularly religious himself.
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I was once struck by an observation, in a scholarly book about 'speaking in tongues' of all things - that the Christian churches as a whole would, in future, be a 'refined form of Catholicism' with a distinct Pentecostal element.
Only today, attending an RC Lent study group, I was struck by the effect/impact of our local Pentecostals on the devout RC ladies who gather there. Without weakening in their Catholicism - although they were suspicious of 'the heirarchy' (of all Churches, not just theirs) and of 'the Vatican' - they paid tribute to the local Penties for their joy and enthusiasm which they said had struck a chord with them and rubbed off.
They observed that as far as they were concerned the local 'Churches Together' initiative - which had brought them into contact with the Penties, the URC and others in the first place - had enabled them to learn from the other Christian traditions represented in the town. That, alongside with regular study of the scriptures through 'lectio divina', they regarded as among the most significant spiritual developments in recent years.
These old girls know their stuff. Some might regard what they're doing as somewhat 'Protestant' but I'm not so sure. It strikes me that they're tapping into aspects of their own tradition but in a more democratic way. Practices that might at one time - certainly in these old ladies' youth - have been seen as the preserve of the 'religious', the monks and nuns - were now more widespread.
Personally, I would love to see the flourishing of a grass-roots, less heirarchical form of Catholicism.
I don't know enough about the RC Church to make any projections, nor do I have a crystal ball as regards anything else. Mudfrog's eschatological hopes may be pious fantasies or they may be on the money - it's easy for him to hedge his bets with this one as he won't be around in 100 years time and neither will any of us. I wouldn't be surprised if we're all still here, though, unless we've wiped ourselves out in some kind of ecological or nuclear disaster.
From what I can pick up from my Orthodox contacts, the feeling there is that the future of Orthodoxy lies with the Slavs as they are the strongest numerically and also the Russians are the ones most likely to seek some rapprochement with Rome - although expect fireworks before that happens. But my informants don't rule out rapprochement with Rome as beyond the realms of possibility.
I don't hold out much hope for 'standard' mainstream Protestantism in the West but I'm also wary of deregulated Pentecostalism as it were as I suspect it will become increasingly syncretic and dumbed down.
We need the Pentecostals, but they also need the rest of us.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by hatless:
2013: The conclave of March 2013 declines to elect a pope.
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
And then you woke up.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
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hatless
Shipmate
# 3365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
quote:
Originally posted by hatless:
2013: The conclave of March 2013 declines to elect a pope.
And then you woke up.
Sadly it keeps happening. I should stay in bed more.
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My crazy theology in novel form
Posts: 4531 | From: Stinkers | Registered: Sep 2002
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
moron: So: what will the Roman Catholic Church be in 100 years?
Its members democratically decide that a hierarchical structure is at odds with the message of Christ. The last pope resigns. She retires to a nice village on the Italian coast.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
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Jon in the Nati
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# 15849
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Posted
Good gods, the wishful thinking on this thread is making my head hurt.
I generally agree with IngoB, though I am not so pessimistic about the Church's chances in North America and Canada (I agree with him about Europe).
As the church continues to reassert orthodoxy, there will at some point be a very large exodus of cultural RCs over a relatively short amount of time. When this happens, there will be some sot of reorganization (parish mergers on a larger scale, elimination of some of the more superfluous dioceses, etc.). But the church will remain, and may even be stronger (or at least more cohesive) even if it is smaller.
There will not be married priests, there will probably not be women deacons, and there is no way there will be women priests. All of the above would signal a surrender of the church to the pressures of the secular world. It won't happen. And Rome will still be at the heart of the church, even if its body is Africa and Asia.
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Jon in the Nati: And Rome will still be at the heart of the church, even if its body is Africa and Asia.
I have this strange impression that there is another continent somewhere with a lot of Catholics. Or are you already giving that one up to the Evangelicals?
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
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Jon in the Nati
Shipmate
# 15849
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Posted
There will continue to be tons of Catholics in South America, but the growth won't be there like it is in Africa and Asia. Then again, I am neither a prophet nor the son of a prophet, who knows?
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Homer: Aww, this isn't about Jesus, is it?
Lovejoy: All things are about Jesus, Homer. Except this.
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Jon in the Nati: There will continue to be tons of Catholics in South America, but the growth won't be there like it is in Africa and Asia.
I agree, but I also admit that I find it strangely telling that in most discussions I hear about the future of the RCC, people talk almost exclusively about Africa and Asia. I admit that I'm probably more sensitive to this because I live in Latin America, but this emphasis on growth (as opposed to absolute numbers) seems a bit odd sometimes.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
I agree with others who feel that we tend to forget South America quite a bit, but perrhaps this is because I am sitting in Argentina as I type.
Other posters have mentioned the protestantizing in stylistic terms of the RCs, and that very much jibes with my observations of the RCC in western Europe and North America, where quite a few of my evangelical friends would have trouble not fitting in. The emphasis on hymns, scripture readings, and increased lay participation suggest that this is a strong grass-roots trend, and one which the hierarchy is only vaguely beginning to grasp.
So I would guess that the future RCC will not be technically really different-- rules and practices will be the same, but more so. I expect that we will have proportionally fewer priests, large numbers of married deacons (Rio alone has 124) doing much of the admin and non-Mass work, and likely more bureaucratized structures. I still think that they will end up with a restricted married priesthood (the viri probati approach). The RCC, being fairly hard-headed, will expend much ecumenical energy on the Orthodox and the Pentecostals, with serious attention only paid to the Anglicans and Lutherans in the warm parts of the world.
I imagine, as well, that we will have some extraterrestrial ecclesiastical jurisdiction and I have some practical ideas on that, should my thoughts be called upon.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Pancho
Shipmate
# 13533
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Posted
I'm gonna look foolish in a hundred years. Heck, I'll look foolish now but I'll give it a go:
The Catholic Church remains the largest single religious body in the world. A period of ferment and renewal occurs over the next 100 years across the Church similar to that which occured in the aftermath of the Council of Trent. Catholics will look back and see the "New Springtime" of the Church which they couldn't see at the time. The explosive growth in Africa is followed by substantial growth in Asia. The number of number of faithful, bishops, priests, deacons, seminarians, and faithful continues to grow worldwide as it does today.
After bottoming out in the next decade the number of male and female "religous" (nuns, monks, etc.) stabilizes and begins to grow again albeit slowly at first.
New religious movements and orders are founded including some cooperative-type communities for lay-folk, especially ones suited for a large aging population. Semi-monastic fraternities appear for Catholic men living in the world (okay, that one is wishful thinking) and contemplative orders of monks and nuns continue to find creative ways to engage the world and evangelize from behind monastery walls while staying true to the law and spirit of their orders.
The medieval scriptorium is now a room full of computers, internet sales continue the support of monasteries with food and crafts, and the world rejoices at the ever-increasing availability of nunish and monkish cake, cheese, wine and beer.
In Asia:
The Philippines becomes even more Catholic than it is now due to a revival in the local church (helped by English language apologetics material being churned out from the U.S.) and growth in formerly Muslim areas of the South disillusioned by armed conflict, as well as the reception of former members of various local, independent churches. Increased visibility worldwide due to influential hierarchs, continued immigration to the rest of the world and increased contacts with Spain and Latin America following a small but influential revival of the Spanish language.
South Korea now has a Christian majority and the Catholic Church remains important and influential. Native Korean orders and missionaries have now spread across the world.
Vietnam is now over a third Catholic. There are areas with a Catholic majority, especially in the South.
Slow but steady growth in Indonesia, especially among tribal and Chinese minorities. East Timor does its part.
Christianity continues to spread in Mainland China by both Catholics and Protestants despite persecution from Communist authorities.
Slow but steady growth in India with spurts in the historic heartlands of Goa and Kerala and notable gains in Orissa, site of the persecutions of 2008. By the end of the century there is a memorial of the Martyrs of Orissa on the calendar.
Iran turns towards the West after the fall of the Islamic regime. While Evangelical churches see some rapid growth the local Armenian, Chaldean, and Latin Catholic Churches also see some growth.
The population of Christians in the Middle-East stabilizes. Chaldean Catholics remain the majority of Christians in Iraq and Maronites have renewed influence in Lebanon. Aramaic is saved from extinction and experiences a small revival among Christians, both among native Middle Easterners and among trendy Westerners taking up the language Jesus spoke.
Decades after the Arab Spring the Coptic Church has reasserted itself. The much smaller Coptic Catholic Church also shows some vigor and from time to time it and the Latin Church attracts a trickle of middle-class Egyptians. It enjoys good relations with its much larger Oriental Orthodox counterpart.
In the rest of North Africa there begin to be signs of growth, especially in certain Berber communities: partly influenced by relatives who immigrated to Europe and became Catholic and partly influenced by the prayers of the Monks of Tibhirine and the now saint Charles de Foucauld. These Catholic Berbers embrace the ancient African saints (Augustine, Monica, Perpetua, Felicity, etc.) as their ancestors in the faith.
The explosive growth in Africa continues. Africans now hold key posts throughout the Church. Africans are teaching in European and North American seminaries and are influential in the sacred arts and become known as spiritual writers. The growth in Francophone Africa has rippling effects in France, Quebec, and the Caribbean.
The Church in Europe stabilizes. The dissenters neither effect change in doctrine nor do they cause schisms (except for small congregations that ocasionaly break off amid fanfare from the media). Like old soldiers, they just fade away. People remember the JPII priests but they forget about the JPII laity. They and their children and their children's children increasingly make up the majority of peeps in the pews, even in Europe.The Church gets its mojo back in Ireland, UK, Spain and Italy with an assist from Poles in Ireland and the Uk and a (smaller) assist from Latin Americans in Spain.
John Henry Newman is declared a saint and a Doctor of the Church. GK Chesterton and Katherine of Aragon are declared Blessed and Venerable, respectively. J.R.R. Tolkien and his mother are declared Servants of God.
The most notable news is a surprising revival of the Church in France spurred by the challenge of the Lefebvrists, the infusion of energy from Francophone Africa, and the founding of some very influential religious orders towards the end of the 20th century such as the Fraternités Monastiques de Jérusalem and Community of St. John. The French bishops gather at Montmartre to once again consecrate the country to the Sacred Heart of Jesus.
The SSPX (Lefebvrists) becomes a niche-church in limbo after rejecting offers of reconciliation one-too-many times. Followers begin to slowly trickle away into diocese-approved traditionalist communities, leaving the hard-core members behind.
(I got carried away and I'm tired. To be continued....)
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“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates, ‘We piped to you, and you did not dance;
we wailed, and you did not mourn.’"
Posts: 1988 | From: Alta California | Registered: Mar 2008
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Mary LA
Shipmate
# 17040
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Posted
While I was in Luanda last month, I was thinking about this, attending Mass at the Cathedral of the Holy Saviour built in 1628. All Sunday Masses packed and overflowing.
Roman Catholicism in 100 years time? Definitely a more hierarchical and conservative Catholic Church in Africa as the eroded and attenuated 'human rights' culture from the West loses traction and we see the rise of Islamic theocratic states.
A slowed trajectory of secularism in Europe and the United States owing to the African diaspora and influence of migrant communities from Latin America (where Pentecostalism will continue to exert considerable influence, less so in Africa or Asia).
And perhaps a increase in significant Catholic, Orthodox and Protestant minorities in unexpected places. Christianity is on the rise in the Middle East -- Juan Cole in his blog Informed Comment commenting on Christian influence in the Middle East notes "About 5% of the French electorate is Muslims, the largest proportion in Europe. But Christians are 10 percent of Egypt, Jordan and Syria, and 22 percent of Lebanon." He sees a more organised and politically outspoken alliance of Christians able to counter the declining Middle East dictatorships.
More persecution, certainly, in the Roman Catholic Church of the 3013 Third World and a corrective to any smug triumphalism. A growing Church, a Church of martyrs, a Church with her back to the wall. And as Chesterton predicted, still the wild truth reeling and erect.
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“I often wonder if we were all characters in one of God's dreams.”
― Muriel Spark
Posts: 499 | From: Africa | Registered: Apr 2012
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Desert Daughter
Shipmate
# 13635
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Posted
I agree that there will be a strong move towards "grassroots" churches and the great masses will find the pentecostal-style more appealing.
What the RC church will lose is its mysticism. I have been, for better or worse, much exposed to Indian philosophy (n.b. Philosophy!! Not some woolly new age pseudo guru ashram thingy) and since then have my doubts about the primacy of the judaeo-greek thinking model and its glorious outcrops (neo-scholasticism anyone?). I agree that a lot has gone terribly wrong in our church recently.
But the alternative offered to the masses today is low-brow happy-clappy with a big dose of "spirit" (speaking in tongues ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif) ) thrown in for good measure. People love to 'socialise', and so in church the 'community' aspect becomes ever more important. What is a moment of worship becomes (under the guise of "communal" worship) a social event.
But the masses are not the truth. A church is not a political party and not a fashion. We, raised in a world very much influenced (tainted!?) by Habermasian discourse "ethics" refuse to, or simply cannot, see it.
Yes, the RCC has massive problems in 2013. But what we need is a church that is more pastoral, but not one that is more democratic.
You cannot approach church, and faith, in the same way many of us approach the rest of life. Otherwise, what's next? Saint Marc (Zuckerberg, not the other guy!) as a Father of the Church because he introduced Vatican governance and doctrinal issues to be decided by "Like" buttons from the masses held in an ever stronger spell by ever more low-brow media?
This is not a popularity contest. The Vatican is not Loft Story. And the masses need a caring shepherd, not more democracy on issues they ultimately know little about.
I know what I just said flies against the Zeitgeist and is profoundly undemocratic. Sorry for causing offense to anyone.
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"Prayer is the rejection of concepts." (Evagrius Ponticus)
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Uncle Pete
Loyaute me lie
# 10422
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Posted
"Jesus Christ, the same yesterday, today and tomorrow" Hebrews 13:8
I think that, at the beginning of his papacy, Benedict XVI postulated that the Church might be smaller in numbers but would prevail.
Given that I am unlikely to be around 100 years from now, it remains postulation.
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Even more so than I was before
Posts: 20466 | From: No longer where I was | Registered: Sep 2005
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Ronald Binge
Shipmate
# 9002
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Posted
I think, after reading the above, that what will happen is that individual Catholics will do what they have always done and simply get on with life and their belief and faith in God, and engage with their friends and neighbours as always.
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
As a non-RC I'm finding this thread fascinating.
I suspect that Chesterton was right in that there'll be a steely and resilient continuation despite all the vicissitudes - when have there never been vicissitudes?
This might sound odd, but as a Protestant I would be inclined to take a fairly positive view of the increasing 'Protestantisation' of the RC Church - provided, and it's a big proviso, a very big proviso - that the RCs learn from our mistakes and don't repeat them.
I'm saddened to hear that one poster believes that the Mystical element might be lost. I don't know a great deal about that side but it strikes me as a vital component - if I can put it in such mechanistic terms.
I'd love to see more lay-involvement, grass-roots development and all the rest - but such things that draw at the same time from the vast resources imbedded within the tradition itself - rather than borrowings from elsewhere.
I think there has been a softer 'catholic' influence that is permeating the fluffier end of the Protestant spectrum - a greater emphasis on Patristics (at least at seminary level), contemplative prayer, spiritual direction, social engagement, the arts etc.
I suspect though, that its the shadow of the Vatican and an inherent suspicion (rightly or wrongly) of the RC heirarchy that prevents the rest of us (including the Orthodox as well as Protestants) from going in a more Romeward direction.
If Romeward means homeward, then the RC Church is going to have to put out a few more cushions ... whether it can do that without altering the internal decor beyond recognition is the moot point.
I would have thought, though, that the best RC 'strategy' ecumenically for the RCs would be to demonstrate the wisdom and efficacy of their own tradition to the rest of us. A lot of spring cleaning to do. We all have shit in our Augean Stables.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
Mary LA:
quote:
While I was in Luanda last month, I was thinking about this, attending Mass at the Cathedral of the Holy Saviour built in 1628. All Sunday Masses packed and overflowing.
I'm not questioning your local experience, but when I hear that where I am, I am always suspicious. I'll give you to examples. One was a Cathedral where the congregation continually asserted that in times past it was always full every Sunday and the really old folk recalled their grandparents telling them the building was always full. Now and again they produced photos as proof. Now the photos turned out to be when they had civic functions and gathered loads in - hence the photo being taken in the first place, but a quick glance at the service records showed that they struggled most Sundays to get above 20 people for the dates in question and for a period when they said it was brimming full (spanning 70 years) there were three recorded baptisms - exactly 33 less than there had been in the year past!
Another parish claimed collectively that in the 40's and 50's thy were brimming full every Sunday and even had weekday services and parish organizations. Again, a quick look at the service records indicated that between 1942 and 1960 - and I kid you not - every last service entry had a note beside it saying, 'no congregation'. The only weekday services they had between this period was when Christmas Day fell on a weekday and even then the same entry was in the book - 'no congregation'.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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Hawk
Semi-social raptor
# 14289
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
My guess is that three quarters of all churches in the West, of all denominations, will be closed. Maybe even more.
And replaced, maybe even more than 1:1, by free evangelical churches.
Denominations are dying, hierarchies and old institutions are distrusted. Old men arguing points of theology in dusty halls in order to decide how the faithful should organise themselves will be a thing of the past. The modern love of people-power and democratic involvement, as well as the free exchange of ideas over the internet will surge congregationalism forward as the most dominant, sucessful and visible form of Christianity.
Christianity will regain its roots as a grass-roots movement of locally focused, largely apolitical, community-based congregations. It will have much less influence on lawmaking, politics and on the world stage, and to most secular people it will appear to have been greatly diminished. But beleivers will recognise that their power to do the work of the Kingdom has never been greater. It will be a voice in the wilderness, but a powerful and effective one.
Regarding the RCC, IMO it will certainly not grow much more than it is today. Any growth in the rest of the world will be met with a massive decline in its European and anglo-speaking heartlands.
Eventually the tensions within the RCC will fail to hold and the arch-conservatives will break away from the liberal reformers. The RCC will wither under these breakaways until eventually it will be just the Vatican and a handful of Bishops scattered around the world performing rites that hardly anyone comes to, with no effect on anything outside the doors. This can continue indefinitely as a largely ignored minor religious cult, seen by others in the same way as most would view the Assyrian Church of the East now. A historical novelty but a modern day anacronism.
This probably won't all happen in a hundred years, but by 2113 I'd imagine we'd already have seen quite a few large breakaways, probably these first ones over OOW and contraception/abortion rights. I'd imagine over the next few decades liberal pressures will encourage the Vatican to set up certain satellite groups (like the current Ordinariate for Anglicans), which gives certain special considerations to people who want the traditions and legitimacy of the RCC but want to maintain a different liturgy and organisation (maybe one for married priests for instance). These special sections of the church will be allowed a measure of autonomy in return for their professed allegiance to Rome. It will be seen as a much needed compromise to diffuse the tensions pulling the RCC apart and maintain unity. But it wont work.
Over time these liberal groups will become more and more loosely affiliated with the Vatican, eventually being Catholic only in name, and these satellite groups will be the most prosperous and well-attended Churches in the RCC sucking up most of the new converts. By 2113 most of these satellite affiliated groups will have given up on the Vatican completely and left, and those who remain in the RCC proper will be even more strictly conservative than Benedict. The arch-conservatives will then ban the experiment of these 'ordinariates' and all special considerations. This will drive even more out of the Church.
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“We are to find God in what we know, not in what we don't know." Dietrich Bonhoeffer
See my blog for 'interesting' thoughts
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Mary LA
Shipmate
# 17040
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Posted
Fletcher Christian, in Cape Town and Johannesburg, South Africa, there are suburban parish Masses not well attended. It varies from place to place so I'm not making a generalisation about the Church in Africa.
But the Catholic Church in Angola is booming. As it is in Nigeria. You could look at Adam Nossiter in the NYT of 23 February, 2013, on the example of the Church of Christ the King in Lagos.
'Six Masses are celebrated here each Sunday for up to 10,000 people, and 102 people were baptized last Saturday. The parish priest, the Rev. Ikenna Ikechi, dreams of building a multistory community center to accommodate his growing flock. “Our only limitation is space,” he said.'
NYT on Church in Africa
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“I often wonder if we were all characters in one of God's dreams.”
― Muriel Spark
Posts: 499 | From: Africa | Registered: Apr 2012
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hawk:
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
My guess is that three quarters of all churches in the West, of all denominations, will be closed. Maybe even more.
And replaced, maybe even more than 1:1, by free evangelical churches.
I think free evangelical churches will find that, without mainline denominations to cannibalize anymore, they will succumb to the same trends as every else.
Indeed, that is what they are already finding.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Jon in the Nati
Shipmate
# 15849
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Posted
quote:
quote:
And replaced, maybe even more than 1:1, by free evangelical churches.
I think free evangelical churches will find that, without mainline denominations to cannibalize anymore, they will succumb to the same trends as every else.
Indeed, that is what they are already finding.
I think this is correct. Evangelical megachurchianity may still be the big whipping boy of Christianity (at least for many on this Ship, myself included), but as a percentage of the Christian population the growth of evangelicalism ended in the late 1990s. The movement may be huge and extremely visible, but it isn't really growing anymore. Even many evangelicals are fairly pessimistic about the matter.
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Homer: Aww, this isn't about Jesus, is it?
Lovejoy: All things are about Jesus, Homer. Except this.
Posts: 773 | From: Region formerly known as the Biretta Belt | Registered: Aug 2010
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
Don't take that the wrong way- pretty much all of these "predications" are more along the lines of "brazen fantasizing." Maybe I'm just more pessimistic than everyone else. ![[Snore]](graemlins/snore.gif)
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I might get jumped on for saying so, but Hawk and others who are optimistic about a more congregational evangelical future need to consider the history.
Congregationalism, in and of itself, like presbyterianism is no guarantor of orthodoxy. You read any of the accounts/journals of revivalists like the Baptist Christmas Evans in Wales and the various Methodist 'circuit-riders' and lay-preachers and so on and you'll find that they spent a great deal of their time combating Socinianism, Sabellianism and all manner of other isms.
Great swathes of the non-conformity of the 17th and 18th centuries fell into Deism or Unitarianism of one form or other - even some of the big name revivalist chaps also succumbed to this pressure at one time or other - before returning to a more orthodox position.
Obviously, it could just as easily be said that an Episcopal system doesn't, in and of itself, guarantee orthodoxy either - there were Deist and Latitudinarian Anglican bishops back in the day and, from a conservative perspective, it's not as if today's liberals are having their wings clipped by the Anglican episcopacy.
But this idea that all you have to do is rid yourselves of heirarchy in order to march forward into some bright, new, democratic future is bunkum.
Left to their own devices and without the 'wider church' or wider Christendom to draw reference points from the independent congregations are more likely to veer either into extreme fundamentalism or else lose the plot and veer away into doctrinal cloud-cuckoo land. We are seeing this already in 'developing countries.'
I was roundly shouted down by some of the evangelicals on these Boards when I suggested - using facts and figures and statistics - that much of the much-vaunted church growth in China (for instance) came from groups that would be regarded as heretical or skewed by most (if not all) evangelicals.
It might be a creative tension thing, but from what I'm picking up indigenous Christianities in developing countries are developing in a direction that most evangelicals would deplore - only they haven't quite woken up to that yet.
At the same time, I would posit that even more doctrinally 'correct' independent settings are at risk from fads and emphases that threaten to derail or dilute what orthodoxy they possess and retain. Again, I don't believe they've quite woken up to that yet either. Or, if they have, they've reacted by becoming all stringent and even more marginalised.
So, no, I don't believe that the future is rosy for congregationalism per se. It might be flavour of the month, it may fit the zeitgeist but if you are wedded to the spirit of the age you will be widowed to it in the next.
You mark my words.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Saying that, and this may appear contradictory, I also think that the future for Christianity (of all stripes) in the West lies in the small unit and the grass-root base-community model.
Andrew Walker, the academic sociologist and theologian (Pentecostal turned Russian Orthodox) said this some years ago - but I think he was right. We need 'plausibility structures' to maintain the faith through the decline of Christendom and just as the monastery performed this function during the 'Dark Ages', a more 'sectarian' or 'gathered' model could well provide the right model this time round.
Self-selecting groups are, arguably, naturally conservative. They aim to preserve their distinctives. It's no accident, I feel, that an Orthodox priest who used to post regularly here (remember him? let the reader understand) once observed (in private conversation not here) that he was finding more 'orthodoxy' among groups like the Church of the Nazarene and the Assemblies of God than he was among Anglicans, Methodists and other more 'mainstream' denominations.
It's the comparative isolation of these groups, he felt, that had preserved them in some kind of Zoar as the white-heat of radical liberalism passed over in a cloud of hot ash and flames ...
![[Biased]](wink.gif)
It all depends on the perspective, of course, where you're coming from.
Liberals are also quite gleeful at any potential implosion or creaking collapse of heirarchy and privilege. At least the ones I know are.
I'm not saying that's right or wrong. Simply suggesting that a more fluid situation is likely to throw up all manner of flotsam and jetsam and some of it quite messy and not at all along the lines that Hawk and people like him would wish.
That said, I believe in God, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit and in his ability to keep things 'on track' and to carve some kind of order out of chaos. But I still believe we need reference points and I'd suggest that, however flawed we may feel it to be, some of those reference points are to be found among the RCs, the Orthodox and others who have preserved and passed on the faith - often at great cost - and often, it has to be said, by dodgy means.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
It might be a creative tension thing, but from what I'm picking up indigenous Christianities in developing countries are developing in a direction that most evangelicals would deplore - only they haven't quite woken up to that yet.
This assumes that only white, western evangelicalism is the 'right sort'. Haven't we got over that yet? I mean, it's hardly as though heresy doesn't exist in the West! It's the history of Christendom unto the present day!! These days it's just baptised as progress and scholarship, etc., seeping out quietly into the atmosphere and the bloodstream, rather than making a big fuss and naming itself before the world.
If Western Christianity has coped with a perpetual state of heresy of its own, then other parts of the world will do the same. No single culture represents pure, wholesome righteous godliness.
May the Lord have mercy on us all.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
100 years in the perspective of the Roman Catholic Church? It would be astonishing if anything significant changed.
As the old parody of the hymn says: 'Like a mighty tortoise moves the Church of God/
brothers, we are treading where we've always trod'.
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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ToujoursDan
Ship's prole
# 10578
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Posted
I see that Catholic church as less Italian, Irish and German, more Asian and African (perhaps having had a few 3rd world Popes by then), past the priest shortage crisis by either modifying its policy on married priests, or making liturgical and structural changes to allow people to either receive the Eucharist less frequently, or having some kind of centralized consecration with Deacons and lay people administering it at a parish level.
I believe the world is heading toward an ecological crisis, mostly because of overpopulation and overconsumption (and think this will come to a head before 2100) and that this will be a game-changer. The fallout of this will turn a least a portion of the population off the materialistic, hedonistic and somewhat nihilistic values we seem to have now. I remain hopeful that the RCC (and all religious communities) find their voice in presenting an alternative message emphasizing stewardship of the planet. While I don't expect the RCC to change its view on contraception (though that would be welcome) it becomes more pragmatic about human nature, perhaps "suspending" the teaching. If the messaging about stewardship, consumption and materialism is done correctly, it could make religion more relevant in the minds of many.
[ 27. February 2013, 13:56: Message edited by: ToujoursDan ]
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"Many people say I embarrass them with my humility" - Archbishop Peter Akinola
Facebook link: http://www.facebook.com/toujoursdan
Posts: 3734 | From: NYC | Registered: Oct 2005
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
In the 19th Century the arch-conservative Pius IX issued a Syllabus of Errors indignantly repudiating the appalling idea that the Catholic Church could reconcile itself to Parliamentary Democracy, Religious Freedom or the emancipation of the Jews. At the end of the twentieth century the arch-conservative John Paul II spent much of his pontificate lecturing the Communist bloc on the importance of the first two and went to the Wailing Wall to apologise for the Church's history of anti-semitism.
Based on that august precedent I have Pope Bernadette II pencilled into a visit to San Francisco sometime around September 2164.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
I would plump for a combo of Ingo's and Dan's predictions.
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Sergius-Melli
Shipmate
# 17462
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
But this idea that all you have to do is rid yourselves of heirarchy in order to march forward into some bright, new, democratic future is bunkum.
Unfortunately it is a view which is gaining some traction even within the Clergy of the Anglican Church. Whilst attending an ArchDeaconary meeeting, whilst I wont exaggerate and say many, there were at least 3 persons (of which two were clergy and one lay) who stood up and advocated (or agreed with the sentiment) that a destruction of the Episcopal system would be a means to growth and renewal.
Posts: 722 | From: Sneaking across Welsh hill and dale with a thurible in hand | Registered: Dec 2012
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sergius-Melli:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
But this idea that all you have to do is rid yourselves of heirarchy in order to march forward into some bright, new, democratic future is bunkum.
Unfortunately it is a view which is gaining some traction even within the Clergy of the Anglican Church. Whilst attending an ArchDeaconary meeeting, whilst I wont exaggerate and say many, there were at least 3 persons (of which two were clergy and one lay) who stood up and advocated (or agreed with the sentiment) that a destruction of the Episcopal system would be a means to growth and renewal.
They don't have much of a choice in the matter, do they? If there's a shortage of priests, and a huge increase in the size of parishes, then it makes no sense to just to struggle on until the whole thing completely collapses.
Necessity needs to become a virtue.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Sergius-Melli
Shipmate
# 17462
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
They don't have much of a choice in the matter, do they? If there's a shortage of priests, and a huge increase in the size of parishes, then it makes no sense to just to struggle on until the whole thing completely collapses.
Necessity needs to become a virtue.
To me it is a gross misunderstanding about the history, nature and role of the Episcopate in the church, and for Clergy of an Anglican Church to come out with it shows a complete lack of understanding about the system in which they are ordained, and a complete lack of denominational identity. Necessity does not trump everything, if a particular Church is to go to the wall, I'm not beyond believing that it is part of God's will, but in efforts to avoid this I don't believe that the fundamentals should be given up to a system alien to the understanding of Catholicity and truth within the Anglican church.
Posts: 722 | From: Sneaking across Welsh hill and dale with a thurible in hand | Registered: Dec 2012
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sergius-Melli:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
They don't have much of a choice in the matter, do they? If there's a shortage of priests, and a huge increase in the size of parishes, then it makes no sense to just to struggle on until the whole thing completely collapses.
Necessity needs to become a virtue.
To me it is a gross misunderstanding about the history, nature and role of the Episcopate in the church, and for Clergy of an Anglican Church to come out with it shows a complete lack of understanding about the system in which they are ordained, and a complete lack of denominational identity. Necessity does not trump everything, if a particular Church is to go to the wall, I'm not beyond believing that it is part of God's will, but in efforts to avoid this I don't believe that the fundamentals should be given up to a system alien to the understanding of Catholicity and truth within the Anglican church.
I think this is the main reason why, despite my appreciation of the Anglican presence in my area (particularly now that I'm a wandering spirit), I could never think of myself as an Anglican. The structure unnerves me.
Perhaps I want to have my cake and eat it, taking advantage of Anglican worship when I need to, but not really taking the structure that enables it to exist. Maybe I'm a bit of a hypocrite. But I do realise that all good (or partially good) things must come to an end.
At least with the RCC, it seems perfectly respectable for the laity to critise the hierarchical set-up while still thinking of themselves as good Catholics. This attitude doesn't seem to work for the CofE, for some reason. It's almost as if these critics are traitors, betraying the authenticity of the church....
[ 27. February 2013, 15:24: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
The RC, like any other Christian group I suppose, needs to address modernity whilst not falling to it. It needs also to realise that the Church is slowly entering the same kind of conditions the Church was in during the first three centuries. Benedict XVI to an extent tried to address both points. So 100 years from now I would like to see the RC having addressed these issues, to have sorted out the whole VII mess (at least that's how I see it) as well as a whole host of other things (from an Orthodox perspective). Will it? I don't know but one can hope.
[ 27. February 2013, 15:32: Message edited by: Ad Orientem ]
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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BulldogSacristan
Shipmate
# 11239
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Posted
And is it really so much a shortage of good men and women who want to be priests as it is a lack of people to pay them and be ministered to by them?
In dioceses I've been in in the Episcopal Church (I know this isn't the case for all dioceses), the discernment apparatuses regularly turn away well over half of all aspirants.
Posts: 197 | From: Boston, Massachusetts | Registered: Apr 2006
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by BulldogSacristan:
And is it really so much a shortage of good men and women who want to be priests as it is a lack of people to pay them and be ministered to by them?
In dioceses I've been in in the Episcopal Church (I know this isn't the case for all dioceses), the discernment apparatuses regularly turn away well over half of all aspirants.
More like three quarters, in my diocese anyhow.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
At least with the RCC, it seems perfectly respectable for the laity to critise the hierarchical set-up while still thinking of themselves as good Catholics. This attitude doesn't seem to work for the CofE, for some reason. It's almost as if these critics are traitors, betraying the authenticity of the church....
There is a big difference between 'criticising the hierarchical set-up' (i.e.. how episcopacy is worked out in practice), and denying the importance of episcopacy as embodying the apostolic ministry. The C of E has survived, as a more or less effective if ramshackle coalition, until now just because everybody has respected the same structures even if not agreeing on the theological principles behind them.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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k-mann
Shipmate
# 8490
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by hatless:
2063: In common with most other denominations, the Roman Catholic church stops holding any financial assets except locally and at very low levels (monthly income x6).
![[Confused]](confused.gif) What other denominations (that fits this bill)? The Church of England? The Episcopal Church? The Church of Norway? The Evangelical-Lutheran Church of America? Willow Creek?
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"Being religious means asking passionately the question of the meaning of our existence and being willing to receive answers, even if the answers hurt."
— Paul Tillich
Katolikken
Posts: 1314 | From: Norway | Registered: Sep 2004
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
Any hierarchy among bishops is merely an administrative convenience. That goes for the ancient patriarchies too.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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hatless
Shipmate
# 3365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by k-mann:
quote:
Originally posted by hatless:
2063: In common with most other denominations, the Roman Catholic church stops holding any financial assets except locally and at very low levels (monthly income x6).
What other denominations (that fits this bill)? The Church of England? The Episcopal Church? The Church of Norway? The Evangelical-Lutheran Church of America? Willow Creek?
Yes, I expect so, but we'll just have to wait and see for the definitive answer, won't we?
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My crazy theology in novel form
Posts: 4531 | From: Stinkers | Registered: Sep 2002
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hatless
Shipmate
# 3365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Any hierarchy among bishops is merely an administrative convenience. That goes for the ancient patriarchies too.
I would have thought that the pope advancing O'Brien's resignation showed a distinct difference in power and status.
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My crazy theology in novel form
Posts: 4531 | From: Stinkers | Registered: Sep 2002
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