Ship of Fools: Pope Emeritus

Thread: Pope Emeritus Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by latecomer (# 8966) on :

I hear that ex-Benedict XVI plans to remain in or near Vatican City. How will the new Pope feel about the old one hanging around? I thought retired CofE clergy had to move away from their last parish. Does the same not apply to RC - specifically papal domains?

Tangent - Do ex-Popes get a pension?

Posted by CL (# 16145) on :

Benedict will get the same pension as any other retired bishop.

Posted by passer (# 13329) on :

quote:
Originally posted by latecomer:
I hear that ex-Benedict XVI plans to remain in or near Vatican City. How will the new Pope feel about the old one hanging around?

I'm sure it'll all be fine.

Posted by CL (# 16145) on :

Andrew Sullivan! [Killing me]

Does anyone actually pay attention to that hysterical old queen anymore?

Posted by justlooking (# 12079) on :

Perhaps he'll get to do a bit of part-time poping - holiday cover, that sort of thing.

Posted by Gildas (# 525) on :

quote:
Originally posted by CL:

Does anyone actually pay attention to that hysterical old queen anymore?

That's no way to speak about the ex-Holy Father. For shame!

Posted by passer (# 13329) on :

quote:
Originally posted by CL:
Benedict will get the same pension as any other retired bishop.

Any idea if he gets to make a will, and leave his possessions to someone/something of his choice? Or as Pope, does all his stuff automatically revert to the Church?

Posted by Og, King of Bashan (# 9562) on :

There is always the possibility that being Pope is really hard, and that he won't envy any of his successor's duties. That would be how I would feeling if I were in Benedict's (no longer red) shoes. As my wife might say, "Hey, new Pope, peace out!"

Sequester in the Vatican makes sense, as he will probably have a little more security from the media and general public than he would at a monastery in Germany.

I also think that the rule about a priest leaving the congregation after retirement doesn't necessarily need to apply to a Bishop. Much of a rector's power comes through the rector's personal relationships with parishioners. Since those relationships won't go away, the former rector's power will still be there, getting in the way of the new guy. A Bishop's power is a little different. Our retired bishop still runs around the diocese, but no one is looking to him for guidance, he just preaches at the Cathedral from time to time. His power was more administrative, and when he left, he lost the administrative powers he had. (Being Pope is slightly different from being Bishop of the Episcopal Diocese of Colorado, so YMMV, but I see a little similarity.)

Posted by PaulTH* (# 320) on :

quote:
Originally posted by latecomer:
How will the new Pope feel about the old one hanging around?

He won't be hanging around. He is retiring to a convent to live quietly and prayerfully. Very little will be heard of him until he passes away. That's how he wants it, and he will have no influence on the office of his successor.

Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on :

I think monastics would be perfect for this - not sure they would take someone of the ex-pope's age though. Which is a shame - as it would be one hell of a first !

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

Is a retired Holy Father, the Holy Grandfather?

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Is a retired Holy Father, the Holy Grandfather?

Dowager Pope.

Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :

quote:
Originally posted by passer:

quote:
Originally posted by CL:
Benedict will get the same pension as any other retired bishop.
Any idea if he gets to make a will, and leave his possessions to someone/something of his choice? Or as Pope, does all his stuff automatically revert to the Church?

Here's one from J2P2 and another by Paul VI. They are more wrap-up spiritual documents, but do deal with material possessions-- although these seem to be the least of their concerns. Recent popes do not seem to have accumulated much money, as far as I can figure it out.

Posted by Jon in the Nati (# 15849) on :

Well, he is once again Josef Cardinal Ratzinger, and now Bishop Emeritus of Rome.

Personally, I would be shocked beyond words if we ever see Benedict in public or hear from him again. He has to know that any public acts by him (even celebrating mass in public) would be a major faux pas. At best, it would serious cramp the new pontiff's style; at worst, it might enable people who wish to do so to see him still as the legitimate pope.

The man has to disappear. I think he is both smart and humble enough to know that; if he really wanted a continuing public role in the church, he'd not have resigned.

[ 01. March 2013, 00:32: Message edited by: Jon in the Nati ]

Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :

quote:
Originally posted by passer:

quote:
Originally posted by latecomer:
I hear that ex-Benedict XVI plans to remain in or near Vatican City. How will the new Pope feel about the old one hanging around?
I'm sure it'll all be fine.

He's the Vatican Smithers!

Posted by Al Eluia (# 864) on :

I happen to think BXVI retiring could be healthy for the church. I know he's stacked the college of cardinals in favor of traditionalists, but who knows--the next guy could be someone truly surprising.

I also wonder if this will set a precedent for future popes when they get too old and frail for the job.

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

I figure that one reason he plans to live at the Vatican is the legal hedge that would be around him there. (Unless Rome decides to mess with that, which was discussed a few years ago.)

But would that apply during his stay at Castel Gandalfo? (And is there a great wizard in residence?) I'm guessing that CG doesn't enjoy the same protection as Vatican City--unless it has embassy status?

I get that having Ratzinger at CG during the conclave seems like a good idea, so there'd be no appearance of him interfering. But I doubt that no one will ever consult him again about anything. Someone's apt to ask his opinion, at least privately.

And thinking of him as a tired old man--rather than an enabler--I hope he doesn't have to stay out of the public eye. I don't mean ceremonies, but just going into Rome for a meal or something. Though if he is trying to avoid legal exposure, he'd be in legal danger each time he set foot outside VC. What a mess, all around.

[Votive]

Posted by Palimpsest (# 16772) on :

It will be interesting to see if the new Pope wants to share his Secretary with the retired Pope. It seems odd to preappoint his successor's staff.

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

I'm wondering if that red-covered secret dossier that B16 allegedly left for the next guy will survive until then--unread, or survive at all. News reports say that some cardinals want to know what's in it.

Treasure hunt, anyone? Paging Dan Brown! [Biased]

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
It will be interesting to see if the new Pope wants to share his Secretary with the retired Pope. It seems odd to preappoint his successor's staff.

Yes - very odd indeed - and not exactly keeping out of things! He will have the new Pope's every move and every word relayed to him if he so wishes.

Posted by Desert Daughter (# 13635) on :

Two points:

1.) When looking at the Vatican with a completely secular and disrespectful eye one can indeed consider it as a mix of Dan Brown, Loft Story, and Royal Family.
But it is not. This is about what is considered sacred to a sizeable chunk of humanity, and as such it deserves respect.

2.) Benedict XVI is a gentle, rather shy, and very scholarly man. The only thing he ever wanted was to live in peace in Bavaria and be a professor. John Paul II called him to Rome, where Joseph Ratzinger went out of obedience only (in fact, JP2 ha to ask him twice...the first time, Ratzinger refused!)

After JP2s death, all Cardinal Ratzinger ever wanted was to retire, and go back to Germany, his family, and his books. He wasn't keen on being elected Pope.

Now he finally, can retire. I do not think that keeping away from the public eye is going to cost him anything. In fact, he will rather enjoy the seclusion, the peace and quiet, the presence of his brother, visits by his family and...his books. He will finally be surrounded only by people who mean well.

He deserves it. He has my respect, my sympathies, and my best wishes for some happy, peaceful, and deliciously silent years.

Posted by PeteC (# 10422) on :

Golden Key: If you searched around a bit (and it is certainly not hidden) you would find that the Pope's summer home is considered part of Vatican City, legally, by the same treaty that established Vatican City in 1929.

---------

I am surprised at the vindictive tone in this thread against an elderly man in his last days. Practicing Catholics take vows seriously. If I vowed to remain hidden from the world in prayer then I certainly would do that.

Benedict XVI, the Pope Emeritus (and certainly not a Cardinal, nor the Bishop of Rome, emeritus) as of yesterday at 2000 hours local time is literally yesterday's news. I don't expect that he will be in the world again until his funeral This ill-mannered, school-boyish sniping at him is certainly not even marginally a Purgatorial thread.

YMMV.
[cross-posted]

[ 01. March 2013, 07:58: Message edited by: PeteC ]

Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:

quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
It will be interesting to see if the new Pope wants to share his Secretary with the retired Pope. It seems odd to preappoint his successor's staff.
Yes - very odd indeed - and not exactly keeping out of things! He will have the new Pope's every move and every word relayed to him if he so wishes.

Allof this is speculation until we know the results of the Conclave. I have been in transition situations where the newbie is utterly delighted to have someone around who knows how the place works, and others where he will walk around with a flamethrower cleansing the place of his predecessor. If the successor doesn't like the secretarial arrangement, he'll change it, politely, but quickly. While they may be personally devout and holy, Cardinals tend to be sophisticated political operators.

By the look of B16, he's tired of the place and wants to return to his books and cats.

Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:

By the look of B16, he's tired of the place and wants to return to his books and cats.

Anent which, I see the Vatican doesn't allow pets. Possibly because a cat knows it is God.

Posted by John D. Ward (# 1378) on :

"According to the Lateran Treaty, certain properties of the Holy See that are located in Italian territory, most notably Castel Gandolfo and the major basilicas, enjoy extraterritorial status similar to that of foreign embassies."

From Wikipedia.

Posted by New Yorker (# 9898) on :

I saw, I think on the BBC website, where the monastery to which B16 will retire has a resident cat named Contessina (I think). Rather cute cat actually.

Posted by Margaret (# 283) on :

Contessina's here (scroll about two-thirds of the way down). I've been wishing him the pleasures of books, a piano, the conversation of good friends, and a cat or two, and I'm so glad to see that there's one already in residence!

Posted by Jon in the Nati (# 15849) on :

Some distinctly non-canonical musings on the status of an ex-pope

Good stuff here from Ed Peters, probably the best-known canon lawyer in the American church. The gist of it: there is literally no useful precedent for the status of an ex-pope, and most of it is being made up as we go along.

Posted by Lawrence (# 4913) on :

Benedict will not be a problem. His retirement is unprecedented so everything he does sets the precedent. He is keenly aware of that. He will not want to be judged by history (especially by church historians)as having screwed it up. If he does it well, it becomes an option for future popes, if he does it poorly he will be become the example of why you can't resign.

Behind the scenes he becomes a resource for the new pope because there is now someone around who does know what you are dealing with (like former US presidents). Benedict just needs to accept it if the new guy says no thanks.

Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Jon in the Nati:
The gist of it: there is literally no useful precedent for the status of an ex-pope, and most of it is being made up as we go along.

As regards international law, there is plenty of precedent for the treatment of a retired head of state. From that point of view, His Holiness's position differs little from that of President Clinton, say, or the position that HM Queen Beatrix of the Netherlands will hold in May.

Posted by Og, King of Bashan (# 9562) on :

If someone could come up with more disparate personalities than Benedict XVI and Bill Clinton, I'd love to hear it.

Posted by John D. Ward (# 1378) on :

Unlike so many public figures who resign suddenly, the Pope has had the great advantage of not trying to convince a skeptical world that:

"I want to spend more time with my family"

Posted by New Yorker (# 9898) on :

quote:
Originally posted by John D. Ward:
Unlike so many public figures who resign suddenly, the Pope has had the great advantage of not trying to convince a skeptical world that:

"I want to spend more time with my family"

Except, maybe, the cat.

Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on :

In a university environment, which is the oly place I've ever heard the term applied, at least in Canada, "emeritus" refers generally to a retired "full" professor (ranks are generally assistant professor, associate professor and professor), who continues to engage in active professorial activities, such as research and obtaining research grants, but leaves out administrative work and direct classroom teaching.

If the title of emeritus is applied to a church leader, I'd presume he continues with general priestly duties but leaves out the supervision of junior clergy and all administration. The only thing I have trouble with, is that he wants to wear the pope costume. I don't think he should. But perhaps it is not him who wants him to wear that outfit.

Makes me consider the old song, Streets of Laredo (Kingston Trio 1961 version), with a little bit of rewording:

quote:
As I walked out on the streets of the Vatican.
As I walked out in the Vatican one day,
I spied a old pope all dressed up in white linen,
Dressed in white linen as cold as the clay.
"I can see by your outfit that you are a pope."
"I see by your outfit you are a pope too."
"You see by our outfits that we are both popes.
Get yourself an outfit, and be a pope too."

Posted by Og, King of Bashan (# 9562) on :

Per Merriam Webster, "Emeritus" means someone who has retired but is permitted to retain an honorary title or rank- no ongoing duties are implied in the title. Once you earn certain titles, they don't take it away from you.

And as far as I am concerned, the Pope Emeritus can wear whatever he wants, be it white robes or Bermuda shorts with black socks and sandals. I can't imagine that the white robes will trick anyone into thinking that he is still acting Pope. You don't really want to make poor Benedict wait for his tailor to make him a bunch of new robes that he's only going to be able to wear for a few years, do you?

Posted by Triple Tiara (# 9556) on :

Every Bishop who retires becomes Bishop Emeritus of the Diocese of which he was bishop. From the Code of Canon Law:

quote:
Can. 402 §1. A bishop whose resignation from office has been accepted retains the title of emeritus of his diocese and can retain a place of residence in that diocese if he so desires, unless in certain cases the Apostolic See provides otherwise because of special circumstances.

Then one can have anomalies as well. Every bishop has to have a place of which he is bishop, so we have the wonderful fiction of titular sees. So let's have a little progression exercise for illustration - Arthur Roche. He was ordained to be auxiliary bishop in the diocese of Westminster. As an auxiliary he did not have his own territory, so he was assigned a titular see - Rusticiana. Shortly afterwards he was appointed Co-adjutor Bishop of Leeds, so he vacated the See of Rusticiana (it is now held by the Nuncio to Costa Rica). He became Bishop of Leeds in 2004. Then last year he was appointed to be Secretary to the Congregation for Divine Worship and made an Archbishop. One would expect therefore that he would gain a new titular See but in fact he did not. He became instead the Bishop Emeritus of Leeds.

Note also that a Bishop Emeritus is entitled to retain a place of residence in the diocese of which he was formerly bishop.

The Pope's situation is not at all unusual in all these respects. At least it wasn't when it was first announced he would be Bishop Emeritus of Rome. "Pope Emeritus", however, has put the cat among the pigeons!

Posted by CL (# 16145) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
Per Merriam Webster, "Emeritus" means someone who has retired but is permitted to retain an honorary title or rank- no ongoing duties are implied in the title. Once you earn certain titles, they don't take it away from you.

And as far as I am concerned, the Pope Emeritus can wear whatever he wants, be it white robes or Bermuda shorts with black socks and sandals. I can't imagine that the white robes will trick anyone into thinking that he is still acting Pope. You don't really want to make poor Benedict wait for his tailor to make him a bunch of new robes that he's only going to be able to wear for a few years, do you?

The white cassock is unimportant. The absence of the mozetta is the crucial thing.

Posted by Triple Tiara (# 9556) on :

I suspect you mean the shoulder cape (pelegrina). The mozetta is something else entirely.

[ 02. March 2013, 00:19: Message edited by: Triple Tiara ]

Posted by IconiumBound (# 754) on :

I believe that the first way I heard his desired title was "Emeritus Pope". Was this wrong or did that reversal have any special implications?

Posted by CL (# 16145) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
I suspect you mean the shoulder cape (pelegrina). The mozetta is something else entirely.

Bugger, I meant pelegrina. [Hot and Hormonal]

Posted by sebby (# 15147) on :

One just suspects that had the pope been a little younger, or in a slightly different situation, he would have been ideally suited to the sort of job that Rowan Williams went to after leaving Canterbury.

The huge spark between the two of them has gone largely unnoticed by the media. Their similarities : introverted personalities; scholarship; prayerfulness; linguistic abilties; research areas ; somewhat unwilling players in controversies and so on. The inviation to Rowan to address the Roman Synod of Bishops was, I believe, unprecedented. It had more to do with the regard and professional friendship between the two dons one suspects, than that Rowan Williams happened to be archbishop of Canterbury. Benedict owned more than one DVD of Rowan Williams's lectures, and watched it frequently.

One can only speculate, although there have been a few little hints of late, that the Holy Father had mentioned the possibility or desirablity to the archbishop of Canterbury. Indeed, Rowan had discussed his plans with the pope. Two university professors together. Most interesting.

Posted by ken (# 2460) on :

quote:
Originally posted by sebby:
One just suspects that had the pope been a little younger, or in a slightly different situation, he would have been ideally suited to the sort of job that Rowan Williams went to after leaving Canterbury.

You mean the sort of job he did before he became a cardinal?

Posted by sebby (# 15147) on :

quote:
Originally posted by ken:

quote:
Originally posted by sebby:
One just suspects that had the pope been a little younger, or in a slightly different situation, he would have been ideally suited to the sort of job that Rowan Williams went to after leaving Canterbury.
You mean the sort of job he did before he became a cardinal?

Not really, as before that Ratzinger was a diocesan bishop after he left his professorship, although not for very long.

In his university days the pope emeritus had quite a heavy teaching and lecturing load. Rowan will not have that. One suspects that Josef Ratzinger would have relished being Master of a college, which in Rowan's case is the opportunity to write with a minimal, if non existent, lecturing role. It has been said that they both enjoy the opportunity to write within an atmosphere of research, especially.

Posted by Autenrieth Road (# 10509) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
I suspect you mean the shoulder cape (pelegrina). The mozetta is something else entirely.

When I google pelegrina I get pictures of a spider, and when I google mozetta I get pictures of the cape. [Confused]

[ 03. March 2013, 15:52: Message edited by: Autenrieth Road ]

Posted by Forthview (# 12376) on :

try the Wikipedia English language version for 'mozetta' and scroll down.

Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on :

I think the winter one looks very Father Christmas-like - in a good way.

Posted by Triple Tiara (# 9556) on :

pelegrina; mozetta; mozetta; pelegrina

The pelegrina is the little shoulder cape attached to the cassock, open at the front, part of ordinary wear. The mozetta is the attire for bishops in choir dress, closed in the front, and used by the pope on more formal occasions.

Here are the versions of a bishop's mozetta and pelegrina

Posted by Ann (# 94) on :

What do you do with a bloke who's pope when a bloke ain't pope no more?

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