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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Resurrection
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Why aren't medically verified miracles celebrated the same way as more dubious claims ? Or if you like why doesn't this 'count' ?
[ETA to add word, the omission of which kindly noted by Stetson.]
[ 23. March 2013, 19:19: Message edited by: Doublethink ]
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
Is this a miracle?
I see a church was mentioned - did they have a prayer group for the lady? Were the members of the congregation praying? If so, I can see that there may be a case for answered prayer here: a miracle.
If there was no spiritual/faith element to this then I can only suggest a case of spontaneous recovery - that does happen.
ITSM that a miracle is something that happens through prayer when it wasn't meant to happen.
Either way the outcome is wonderful ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
[THIS POST IS DIRECTED TO DOUBLETHINK]
I think there might be a word missing from your first sentence. But assuming I know what you were trying to say...
quote:
Or if you like why doesn't this 'count' ?
If you're asking why this doesn't count as a miracle, well...
Does the woman's recovery defy the laws of science? I think that's sort of the criteria to determine whether something is a miracle or not.
[ 23. March 2013, 18:34: Message edited by: Stetson ]
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Her heart didn't beat (they think) for about 45 minutes - if true the lack of major brain damage after 4 minutes oxygen deprivation is certainly unexplained.
But this woman was resurrected - why is it only theologically relevant if done with the aid of prayer ?
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
Because the inference is that prayer caused the resurrection. That means divine intervention in response to faith - a miracle.
If not, then it's impossible to justify the use of the word miracle - it could simply be explained as a spontaneous occurrence that was caused by various unknown and unexplained, but probably natural, factors.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Gextvedde
Shipmate
# 11084
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Because the inference is that prayer caused the resurrection. That means divine intervention in response to faith - a miracle.
If not, then it's impossible to justify the use of the word miracle - it could simply be explained as a spontaneous occurrence that was caused by various unknown and unexplained, but probably natural, factors.
Since when were miracles only associated with prayer? Surely God can act as he/she pleases regardless of being prompted.
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"We must learn to see that our temperament is a gift of God, a talent with which we must trade until he comes" Thomas Merton
Posts: 293 | From: The Twilight Zone, near the M25 | Registered: Feb 2006
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Because the inference is that prayer caused the resurrection. That means divine intervention in response to faith - a miracle.
If not, then it's impossible to justify the use of the word miracle - it could simply be explained as a spontaneous occurrence that was caused by various unknown and unexplained, but probably natural, factors.
Quite, but then if is someone is resurrected and there was a prayer group - why can the recovery not be "explained as a spontaneous occurrence that was caused by various unknown and unexplained, but probably natural, factors" anyway ? If it happens anyway sometimes - why do you need a miraculous explanation ?
[ 23. March 2013, 19:44: Message edited by: Doublethink ]
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gextvedde:
Since when were miracles only associated with prayer? Surely God can act as he/she pleases regardless of being prompted.
This. Also, there are always people praying for the salvation of the world and the healing of all people.
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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
Well indeed, 'it's all in the eye of the worshipper' (or not).
I think it's all wonderful and the sceptic will never believe it was a miracle whatever the evidence.
The rest of us will just quietly believe that God had some kind of hand in it all somewhere.
It's what he does.
Sometimes.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
I'd like to know the temperature in which her health emergency occurred and also the readings of her body temperature at various times during the 45 minutes. We've had, mostly children, fall into through the ice and often get retrieved in the 20-40 min range with body temps in the low 30s°C and they generally do okay. If they're outside but not in water, say at -35 or 40°C they survive but lose parts of limbs to freezing. Hypothermia and diving reflex is the explanations.
Not miracles in the conventional sense, but wonderful nonetheless that who was dead is now alive.
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Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Well it was daytime in the UK - outside her house, so I don't think it could be that cold.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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HughWillRidmee
Shipmate
# 15614
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
Her heart didn't beat (they think) for about 45 minutes - if true the lack of major brain damage after 4 minutes oxygen deprivation is certainly unexplained.
Mrs Brothers' daughter, with the help of a neighbour, began to administer CPR but she said as far as she was concerned "my Mum was dead on the path I have no idea what medical training the lady's daughter has had but "as far as she was concerned" is not what I would consider to be evidence. Note that there is no suggestion (yet at least) that Mrs Brothers met angels/Jesus/God/Mohammed etc. or saw a light at the end of a tunnel - typical responses when a human brain is starved of oxygen.
It may be that there is a simple explanation - panic-induced exaggeration perhaps. It may be that the actual situation is not as reported and the apparent facts are incorrect.
Whatever – I’m glad the lady is recovering and no – I can’t tell you why she’s not dead – but not knowing does not mean goddidit, does it?
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The danger to society is not merely that it should believe wrong things.. but that it should become credulous, and lose the habit of testing things and inquiring into them...
W. K. Clifford, "The Ethics of Belief" (1877)
Posts: 894 | From: Middle England | Registered: Apr 2010
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
<pedant alert>
Sounds like a case of resuscitation, not resurrection.
Jesus' resurrection body seems to be able to walk through walls and shit.
As first fruit of the general resurrection, I'm assuming we wont be too far off. Our bodies will be "transformed": not like they are now, but not completely dissimilar.
</pedant alert>
Didn't read the article in the OP, but don't see why it shouldn't count.
My understanding of miracles is something rather out of the ordinary or unexpected.
[ 24. March 2013, 12:02: Message edited by: Evensong ]
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by HughWillRidmee:
Whatever – I’m glad the lady is recovering and no – I can’t tell you why she’s not dead – but not knowing does not mean goddidit, does it?
Doesn't mean goddidntdoit either.
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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Grokesx
Shipmate
# 17221
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Posted
quote:
Her heart didn't beat (they think) for about 45 minutes - if true the lack of major brain damage after 4 minutes oxygen deprivation is certainly unexplained.
I may be missing something here, but isn't that what CPR is for?.
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Posts: 373 | From: Derby, UK | Registered: Jul 2012
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
<pedant alert>
Jesus' resurrection body seems to be able to walk through walls and shit.
I don't recall the latter of these, can you give me Chapter and verse? ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
</pedant alert>
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Last ever sig ...
blog
Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
I don't think we are talking about resurrection at all here. It could be one of two things:
- She was somehow raised from the dead, as Jesus raised lazarus. If so, it would have been a miracle, but also begs the question, "who raised her?"
- She was resuscitated, which means no miracle took place.
The resurrection Evensong speaks of only applies to Jesus on Easter morning, being the "firstfruits of them that slept" - at the General Resurrection, as she points out, we will ultimately be like that - but it doesn't apply in this example, which could only be one of the two possibilities I have listed.
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
How is resuscitation *not* raising someone from the dead ?
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
How is resuscitation *not* raising someone from the dead ?
Resuscitation does not require any sort of miracle - it requires intervention, but using natural processes, ie. CPR.
Raising someone from the dead, in the manner that Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead, was supernatural as far as we are concerned, and was a sign that Jesus is the Son of God, and that all things were created by Him and for Him.
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
For Doublethink:
quote:
From George Fox's Journal - Raised from the Dead:
(Fox Speaking.) While we were at Shrewsbury, an accident occurred, which for the time was a great exercise to us; John Jay, a Friend of Barbados, who came with us from Rhode Island, and intended to accompany us through the woods to Maryland, took to riding a horse which fell while running and threw him down upon his head, breaking his neck; as reported by the people. Those that were near him picked him up as dead, carried him a good way, and laid him on a tree. I got to him as soon as I could; and, feeling him, I concluded he was dead. As I stood pitying him and his family, I took hold of his hair, and his head turned anyway, his neck was so limber. Upon which I took his head in both my hands, and setting my knees against the tree, I raised his head, and saw nothing out or broken that way. Then I put one hand under his chin, and the other behind his head; and raised his head two or three times with all my strength, and brought it in. I soon perceived his neck began to grow stiff again, and then he began to rattle in his throat; and quickly after to breathe. The people were amazed; but I told them have a good heart, be of good faith, and carry him into the house. They did so, and set him by the fire. I told them get him something warm to drink, and put a robe on him. After he had been in the house awhile, he began to speak; but did not know where he had been. The next day we left and traveled (and he with us, pretty well) about sixteen miles, to a meeting at Middleton, through woods and bogs, and over a river, where we swam our horses, and got over ourselves upon a hollow tree. After this he traveled many hundred miles with us.
You will note that a broken neck can't be fixed by natural processes - George Fox certainly didn't think so.
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
How is resuscitation *not* raising someone from the dead ?
"Jesus lives" is good news. "Lazarus lives" isn't. Resurrection isn't "coming back from death" - it isn't "coming back" from anything. Resurrection is new life. This woman was resuscitated. She will die again.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Fox was not a doctor - it is possible to dislocate your neck and experience temporary paralysis.
I think the issue is how difficult it is to diagnose death. But isn't a miracle usually just something we have not yet naturally explained ?
Maybe Lazarus was in a coma.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Lazarus was fermenting. A rotting, stinking corpse. Jesus made sure of that by waiting. Making the narrative fit around Lazarus being in a coma leads to a cascade of absurdities.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
The narrative says that Jesus was advised not to open the grave because it was predicted he would be rotten, because he had been in the cave four days - believed to be dead.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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HughWillRidmee
Shipmate
# 15614
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by HughWillRidmee:
Whatever – I’m glad the lady is recovering and no – I can’t tell you why she’s not dead – but not knowing does not mean goddidit, does it?
Doesn't mean goddidntdoit either.
Of course but because, believe it or not, I try to avoid taking up space with the obvious I decided to omit that as irrelevant.
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Lazarus was fermenting. A rotting, stinking corpse. Jesus made sure of that by waiting. Making the narrative fit around Lazarus being in a coma leads to a cascade of absurdities.
Based on a story used only by the writer(s) now known as John in a format probably compiled some sixty years after the event is said to have taken place. And, to keep Evensong happy (and because I can resist anything but temptation), I fully accept that that does not mean the story is untrue.
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The danger to society is not merely that it should believe wrong things.. but that it should become credulous, and lose the habit of testing things and inquiring into them...
W. K. Clifford, "The Ethics of Belief" (1877)
Posts: 894 | From: Middle England | Registered: Apr 2010
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
Fox was not a doctor - it is possible to dislocate your neck and experience temporary paralysis.
That thought did occur to me, but still I quoted him because he's the founder of your movement, the Society of Friends.
quote:
I think the issue is how difficult it is to diagnose death. But isn't a miracle usually just something we have not yet naturally explained?
I don't think so - certainly you cannot define a miracle that way, because you are basically saying that it is not a miracle at all.
quote:
Maybe Lazarus was in a coma.
If this was so, then it would be a miracle for Jesus to know this, considering he was a long way away when Lazarus was buried while all those present were unaware.
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Lazarus was fermenting. A rotting, stinking corpse. Jesus made sure of that by waiting. Making the narrative fit around Lazarus being in a coma leads to a cascade of absurdities.
Exactly Martin.
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
<pedant alert>
Sounds like a case of resuscitation, not resurrection.
Jesus' resurrection body seems to be able to walk through walls and shit.
I agree.
But I don't think it is pedantic - it's crucial to the whole discussion as to whether it was resurrection or resuscitation.
(Though the NT doesn't have any accounts of the risen Christ defecating!)
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My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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HCH
Shipmate
# 14313
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Posted
Several comments come to mind.
One is that CPR works so seldom that when it does succeed, we should certainly give thanks.
Another is that I see no cause and effect between prayers and miracles. As was commented earlier, God can do as God pleases.
A third comment is that the history of medicine has included serendipitous events such as the discovery of penicillin, and serendipity can certainly be viewed as divine intervention.
A last (for now) comment is that people talking about miracles always want to talk about life and death. There are probably many subtler miracles (if one wants to talk of miracles at all).
Posts: 1540 | From: Illinois, USA | Registered: Nov 2008
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
How is resuscitation *not* raising someone from the dead ?
Resuscitation does not require any sort of miracle - it requires intervention, but using natural processes, ie. CPR.
Raising someone from the dead, in the manner that Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead, was supernatural as far as we are concerned, and was a sign that Jesus is the Son of God, and that all things were created by Him and for Him.
I think you're getting your terminology confused Mark Betts.
Those that have died in the bible and are brought back to life are cases of resuscitation. Elijah does this in the OT, Jesus' disciples do this somewhere in Acts (?) and Jesus does it with Lazarus and others.
They are indeed miracles because they contravene natural processes.
The only person to have been resurrected (as opposed to resuscitated) in the bible is Jesus.
As Adeodatus said it is about new life in the new heaven and the new earth. Our old bodies (this life) will be transformed in the resurrection - not just brought back from death to die again at some date in the future.
The resurrected life is eternal life.
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by balaam:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
<pedant alert>
Jesus' resurrection body seems to be able to walk through walls and shit.
I don't recall the latter of these, can you give me Chapter and verse?
</pedant alert>
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
Why aren't medically verified miracles celebrated the same way as more dubious claims ?
Without commenting on the linked article, might be worth mentioning that people who don't believe in miracle don't see a miracle no matter what happens. While some too freely claim "miracle," others too freely insist "no miracle" even if their "natural" explanation is a stretch to believe.
Jesus said if you don't believe the prophets you won't believe the miracles. I.e, miracles are not themselves convincing. (I reckon some can believe the prophets and still not believe the miracles.)
Someone gets up out of a wheelchair and runs around the room screaming in delight, someone else says "he was just faking it" or "it was just a psychosomatic disability" or "I won't believed it unless he shows me the doctor records." Show doctor records they say "the doctor misdiagnosed" or "the doctor got medical records mixed up with someone elses" or "these can't be real records, you are handing me a fraud." Those who are determined not to believe, don't.
Usually what I hear from doctors after a miraculous healing is "misdiagnosis" - an easy way to dismiss what they don't want to see. Some of these claims of "misdiagnosis" are themselves incredible.
[ 25. March 2013, 05:30: Message edited by: Belle Ringer ]
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
I think you're getting your terminology confused Mark Betts.
Those that have died in the bible and are brought back to life are cases of resuscitation...
I don't like the term "resuscitation" when people apply it to a miraculous raising of the dead, resuscitation is CPR IMO. Anyway, carry on...
quote:
...Elijah does this in the OT, Jesus' disciples do this somewhere in Acts (?) and Jesus does it with Lazarus and others.
They are indeed miracles because they contravene natural processes.
That's why I don't like using the term "resuscitation" as if Jesus gave them CPR, which clearly he didn't.
quote:
The only person to have been resurrected (as opposed to resuscitated) in the bible is Jesus.
As Adeodatus said it is about new life in the new heaven and the new earth. Our old bodies (this life) will be transformed in the resurrection - not just brought back from death to die again at some date in the future.
The resurrected life is eternal life.
Agree with all this except your continued usage of the term "resuscitation" for the miraculous raising of the dead. The word isn't used in my Bible (Septuagint + KJAV New Testament), and it doesn't sound right to me. YMMV
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
Yes you're right. It's not a helpful term.
I first came across it on the ship to distinguish between the miracles in the bible and the resurrection.
A different one would be better.
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Yes you're right. It's not a helpful term.
I first came across it on the ship to distinguish between the miracles in the bible and the resurrection.
A different one would be better.
Someone will no doubt correct me if I'm wrong, but I think "resuscitation" is a term used by liberals and naturalists to mock people who believe in the supernatural, particularly when talking about Jesus and His Resurrection.
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
You're wrong.
(This liberal believes in the resurrection and doesn't have a problem with miracles. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif) )
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
You're wrong.
(This liberal believes in the resurrection and doesn't have a problem with miracles. )
OK... I'll let you have that one - let's just say some liberals don't believe in miracles or the Resurrection of the body.
While we're on the subject, we note that when Jesus raised people from the dead (and I don't mean resuscitation/CPR, I mean miraculously) this was for a sign of the General Resurrection at the end of the age - particularly in Lazarus' case.
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
...Usually what I hear from doctors after a miraculous healing is "misdiagnosis" - an easy way to dismiss what they don't want to see. Some of these claims of "misdiagnosis" are themselves incredible.
It would be better if they could just say "we don't know" or "we don't understand." If they are afraid of their competence being called into question, "misdiagnosis" doesn't exactly inspire confidence either.
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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