Ship of Fools: Reality Check

Thread: Reality Check Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Nikon User (# 5940) on :

OK, I feel the need to ask people if what's happening to me is just a minor set of problems about which I don't need to be concerned or if I'm right in being upset.

Briefly: I worship at a CofE church some miles from home.It had a style of churchpersonship that approximated to what I sought. I was involved in some church activities; Eucharistic serving, volunteering as a steward [it's a much-visited church in a popular tourist area] and I was on the path of discernment of my vocation.

Then a bad recurrence of my depressive illness occurred. I had to drop out of both activities. Then a close friend took her own life. I find myself in some spiritual confusion and distress. I emailed the vicar and explained all of that. He hasn't even replied. I had a health problem which has prevented me driving, so I can't get to church for a while. I told him that. No response.

I feel somewhat abandoned. It feels as though that church values only its members who have a formal role in its work. I feel in need of spiritual help and that is being denied me.

So, are my expectations unreasonable/ Or should I expect to have my rather pressing needs taken seriously? I have to add that the church Caretaker has been a pillar of strength. She isn't a Christian....

Posted by fletcher christian (# 13919) on :

Call said Vicar on the phone perhaps? Ask to meet? Email is not always the best form of communication.

Posted by claret10 (# 16341) on :

Personally i'd say you are right to be upset. I would however add it may be the vicar hasn't read your emails yet. Our vicar always responds but I know she gets 100 plus emails a day and sometimes gets behind with replying to those that need responses. Would you feel able to phone the vicar and discuss your issues.

I know that in our church if people are unable to drive, we do try and find someone who could pick them up, however far away they live.

So personally yes i'd be upset, however there may be reasons for the lack of contact.

Posted by Evangeline (# 7002) on :

I think you've a right to feel upset and abandoned.

As for calling the Vicar, hmmm that's an easy thing to suggest but can be hard to do especially if you can't drive you'd have to ask him to visit you and I don't know about you but I'd feel awkward about that. It's a bit slack too that nobody from the church at all has bothered to visit etc, except of course the non-Christian caretaker for whom I thank God (seriously).

FWIW, I am beginning to think that one is better off ignoring churchmanship and focusing on the type of community the church builds. If the church is as Christ to one another that counts for much more than the way they worship and even, I"m beginning to think, their theological nuances. Now isn't the time for you obviously, but perhaps when things settle you could start investigating a different church.

Posted by Snags (# 15351) on :

It is possible that your vicar hasn't seen the email. Despite us getting used to it working like magic, it's not a 'reliable' medium, really - lots of things that can prevent it getting delivered. And that's before you get to different people handling it in different ways.

I appreciate it can be hard, but I would definitely, definitely try to find another way to make contact before assuming you're being ignored, for whatever reason. Phone, text, letter (possibly a bit slow), even via a third party you have regular 'real world' contact with. Technical glitches can make already shit situations much worse when they don't need to be ...

[Votive]

Posted by Mere Nick (# 11827) on :

What everyone else said, try a more direct way of communication, such as a phone call. Or maybe show up on his front porch. He may need a chance to learn about an area he needs to grow in.

Get with your doctor about your depression.

Visit some people you know who are sick or lonely.

There may be some others in your congregation who need help and support that you are looking for, too, and all of this may be a way of showing you that you need to be the one to step up and provide to others what you are needing. If I were one of them you would mean a alot to me because you would understand what I'm going through. You would probably cause me to want to join you in helping others.

Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :

1. Make sure you are getting treated appropriately for your depression. Bear in mind that depression can skew your perspective of events.

2. Try to communicate with your vicar again, in another way, or just to confirm that he received your email. As others have said, he may have not received it, or it got lost in other emails.

3. Actually, my experience is that churches can be extremely poor at keeping in touch with people who are no longer actively involved. When I left my church a year ago, I was very disappointed that, 6 months later, I had had very little contact from people there. I felt that they were only interested in me while I was involved.

Posted by Crœsos (# 238) on :

Here's a guest post on the Internet Monk blog that might be relevant to your situation.

Posted by Nikon User (# 5940) on :

Thanks for the comments. I should have explained about using email: I have a real problem with phone conversations at the moment, because of a neurological problem leading to speech difficulties. Half the time even I don't understand what I'm saying. Maybe I do need to be patient; I know clergy get lots of communications in various ways. But there's been a couple of weeks gone by. Yes, depression does skew perceptions: hence the title of the thread. And thank you for advising medical support- I'm very fortunate in having a great GP and a supportive psychiatrist. Oddly, I feel better about the whole thing simply for sharing it [I hate that expression].

Posted by Josephine (# 3899) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Nikon User:
I should have explained about using email: I have a real problem with phone conversations at the moment, because of a neurological problem leading to speech difficulties.

And that alone can lead to real isolation and depression. Would it be possible to ask the wonderful church caretaker to hand-deliver a note to the vicar?

Posted by Gwai (# 11076) on :

Having seen both sides of this re a dear spacey clergyperson I know who truly didn't want anyone to fall by the wayside but tends to be disorganized and do things exactly like this vicar who hasn't gotten back to you, if you can get talk to someone at the church, I would highly encourage that. Get someone to tell the vicar that Nikon User would really appreciate a call.

Posted by Esmeralda (# 582) on :

In addition to what SC said, may I recommend our very own Waving not Drowning private board?

Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :

If you have a problem with the phone - a quick email asking if he received your previous one would be appropriate, I think.

Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Nikon User:
Thanks for the comments. I should have explained about using email: I have a real problem with phone conversations at the moment, because of a neurological problem leading to speech difficulties. Half the time even I don't understand what I'm saying. Maybe I do need to be patient; I know clergy get lots of communications in various ways. But there's been a couple of weeks gone by. Yes, depression does skew perceptions: hence the title of the thread. And thank you for advising medical support- I'm very fortunate in having a great GP and a supportive psychiatrist. Oddly, I feel better about the whole thing simply for sharing it [I hate that expression].

I have a real reluctance to use email for anything serious-- when I tell people that I use the postal system, I often get smirks, but I know that a brief note will get a serious response because they are so relatively rare these days and because the recipient knows that such mail is not casual. It also has the added advantage of being able to sit overnight before posting.

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

Do assume the email never got there. I've had this happen at least ten times this past year--that, or it showed up weeks late (I saw the timestamp). And I suspect there's a dedicated gremlin (named Murphy, perhaps?) who makes sure that this happens to the most important ones.

Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Nikon User:
I have to add that the church Caretaker has been a pillar of strength. She isn't a Christian....

H'mmm , now where have I heard that before .

Call me hard-hearted but I kinda think that modern Christians shouldn't really expect that much from each-other . After-all isn't seeking and building a faith pretty much a self-serving exercise when you think about it ?

I can't speak for vicars as I'm not one .
<So disclaimer alert> I do get the feeling that vicars can't really be blamed for just taking services, and seeing to admin and not getting overly involved in people's personal lives as maybe they used to.

We all know that things aren't the same as they were in the past . These days , if we should have the misfortune to encounter a situation whereby we are unable to cope, I personally think it better to seek professional rather than spiritual help.

Not forgetting the adage that a 'friend in need is a friend indeed'.
[Votive]

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
Call me hard-hearted but I kinda think that modern Christians shouldn't really expect that much from each-other . After-all isn't seeking and building a faith pretty much a self-serving exercise when you think about it ?

I can't speak for vicars as I'm not one .
<So disclaimer alert> I do get the feeling that vicars can't really be blamed for just taking services, and seeing to admin and not getting overly involved in people's personal lives as maybe they used to.

We all know that things aren't the same as they were in the past . These days , if we should have the misfortune to encounter a situation whereby we are unable to cope, I personally think it better to seek professional rather than spiritual help.

Sometimes professional help is absolutely essential, depending on the problem. But if you're saying that Christians shouldn't expect to provide each other with spiritual and emotional support, then I have to ask what the church is for.

You can pray and read devotional material in your bedroom. You can even listen to sermons on the internet. In fact, by this logic, the only reason for going to church is to take communion, (if that's important to you) and to enjoy the occasional group sing-song, because it's not easy to get these experiences elsewhere. But if this is all the church as a gathered community is for, then it seems that a whole lot of money is being used to very little purpose!

BTW, having been involved in church admin I'd agree that the clergy sometimes take a quite while to answer emails. They might have a lot on their plate. Ideally, we'd all be close enough to at least one other spiritual person in the congregation to be able to call on their prayerful support and advice rather than always turning to the clergy. But this means you do need to get to know other people in the congregation, and they need to get to know you.

I wish you all the best, Nikon User.

Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on :

quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
if you're saying that Christians shouldn't expect to provide each other with spiritual and emotional support, then I have to ask what the church is for.
Nikon User.

I admit to putting that a little clumsily . I have been part of a Church congregation for 12 years and in that time the names of people ,(ill or dying), have been given out during prayer .

So yes, we are providing spiritual support for each other in that way. Further than that, I personally would feel a bit awkward actually contacting or visiting an absent member of the congregation .

So in Nikon user's case I think it would be appropriate if the vicar , had he received the e-mail, replied and said something like -- Sorry to hear this, thanks for letting us know . You can be assured of our prayers .

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

Rolyn, I'm sorry, but I find that shocking.

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
I have been part of a Church congregation for 12 years and in that time the names of people ,(ill or dying), have been given out during prayer .

So yes, we are providing spiritual support for each other in that way. Further than that, I personally would feel a bit awkward actually contacting or visiting an absent member of the congregation .

Maybe part of the problem is that because the CofE is 'everyone's church' it feels wrong, somehow, to keep special tabs on 'insiders', because there aren't supposed to be any insiders or outsiders!

The Methodist Church has a system of formalised pastoral support, which means that every church member should be on the list of a 'pastoral visitor' whose job it is to keep in touch occasionally, especially if the individual is sick. It's a decent system (for a church that has a concept of membership), let down principally because the Methodist church is ageing, and is seriously short of pastoral visitors.

I should admit that I appreciate not being reeled into the inner orbit of the Anglican church I sometimes attend now. At this time of my life I prefer the anonymity, although I want to retain the habit of churchgoing. However, I still benefit from the concern and warmth of the people of the (now defunct) Methodist church I used to attend! Were I to move away and be on a hunt for a serious 'church community', to belong to I wouldn't be happy with a church where the 'members' didn't look out for each other.

[ 29. March 2013, 18:45: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]

Posted by Moo (# 107) on :

I agree you should be getting far more support than you are.

It might help if you say more explicitly what you want. When I want to talk to my rector, I title the e-mail, "I want to talk to you". If I wrote and told him I was depressed, I'm not sure he would know what I wanted beyond prayers.

Moo

Posted by Horseman Bree (# 5290) on :

It may just be possible the vicar has already got more on his plate than he can handle. In large parts of many countries, the minister/priest/pastor is the only "formal" help service available to both the members of the congregation and everyone else in the area, now that all the bureaucratic stuff has been moved to "efficient" central places.

Work-life balance is not understood in the church context, since there is often literally no-one else to call. The communities, where Mrs. S down the road looked in on some of those in need or was available for the kids to drop in, doesn't exist now that we've all suburbanized/apartmentised ourselves.

One new concept I've just heard about is the automatic-garage-door opener as the last straw in making sure that people are fully isolated. Get in your car in the garage, the door opens and out you go to the office. Come home, the door opens, and you are safely in your car until you see the light come on inside the garage, never having dealt with any person in all that transit time. Add in gated areas or even just new estates designed for cars, and, bingo!, no community. The same would apply in "second-home" territory - absolutely no human contact - so what happens when the wheels fall off?

We are at present training a group of pastoral visitors in the hope of dealing with some of the gaps that exist just in our own field - people who do the contacting and listening for the early rounds of what N.U. has described. Information will feed back to the priests, so that some form of triage can happen, when the situations get too serious for the amateurs.

Note that these are NOT "social" visitors, but people, such as retired nurses, who can keep focused on the problems, and, if helpful, point a "social" visitor towards someone who is basically lonely, for instance, rather than taking up more of the priest's time that he hasn't got.

Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Nikon User:

Then a bad recurrence of my depressive illness occurred. I had to drop out of both activities. Then a close friend took her own life. I find myself in some spiritual confusion and distress. I emailed the vicar and explained all of that. He hasn't even replied.

First off, I'm sorry that you've had a bad time of things recently. Please be assured that, however rocky the path is, Jesus will walk the path beside you. You are not alone.

I don't know how you phrased your email to the vicar, but it's possible that he interpreted the email as you letting him know that you weren't going to be at church for a while, and his mental response was "thanks for letting me know not to worry about you". It's easy to get the wrong end of the stick over email, particularly if your vicar isn't very good at picking up on hints. He also might just not want to intrude.

So my advice would echo Moo's: send him an email, tell him explicitly that you want to talk to somebody, but you can't drive. The fact that you say you live some distance outside the parish is a complication, but not, to my mind, a very large one. He won't be offended.

If that doesn't work, perhaps he just doesn't read email (or your emails are caught by a spam trap or something) in which case I would suggest a postal letter. You can tell him that you've sent email and not had a reply, which might drive him to locate your message in his spam folder.

I'm sorry that I can't be of more help, but please don't give up on contacting your vicar. Providing you with pastoral care is part of his job, and I feel certain that what you have now is a communication problem rather than anything else.

In Christ,

Leo

Posted by Crazy Cat Lady (# 17616) on :

Just to sound a note of optimism, in my church its the clergy who support me rather than the congregation, and are pretty keen to stay in touch. And when I get ill, it can be a bit epic!

Everyone else has offered good advice, but I also know people can be a bit wary when it comes to mental health issues, often because they fear they may do or say the wrong thing and end up making you ten times worse. So I wonder, is it worth saying you just need a friendly chat? It kinda reassures people and often opens up dialogue

Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Nikon User:
Then a bad recurrence of my depressive illness occurred. I had to drop out of both activities. Then a close friend took her own life. I find myself in some spiritual confusion and distress. I emailed the vicar and explained all of that. He hasn't even replied...

I feel somewhat abandoned. It feels as though that church values only its members who have a formal role in its work...

Pretty common. I have a shelf-full of books that say when you fail to show up at church, no one contacts you. Out of sight out of mind. I have asked friends if they ever contact someone who stops coming to their church. No. Even a preface like "I'm worried about her, she was having real health problems" is followed by "but I don't want to intrude."

Add that many clergy are introverts. And would feel intimidated out of their depth if you mentioned depression. Add the "several miles" -- follow-up is "too much work" when there are all the church projects needing attention, so s/he forgets about you.

Squeaky wheel approach is needed. Many busy people who hear a request from you one day and not for a week assume your problem has resolved itself or you would have called again. Trouble is, in your condition you don't have the energy to do the squeaky wheel thing.

The people who get personal attention when in need, from a church, are those who have an advocate, someone who persistently calls the church for you to say what you need.

Marrieds get a lot of help because when one of a twosome show up everyone is visually reminded "Oh, Ed is sick" and some will ask "how can we help?" Plus the well one of the twosome can be asking for help. But when one of a onesome doesn't show up, there is no automatic reminder, and no one with the energy to keep calling and asking.

Can you find a friend who will take on bugging the church for you? Advocate for you? Most friends won't, they're busy. Can you afford to HIRE a friend to be an advocate for you, to check up on you once a day, see what you need help with, make phone calls buy groceries whatever?

Posted by Ricardus (# 8757) on :

One other thing to be aware of with church email: do you know where it actually goes?

At a previous church I emailed the vicar (on a non-essential matter) and got a fairly quick response from his wife. It turned out that his wife acted as his administrator for his email. I personally think this ought to have been stated in advance so that one could tell that the vicar's email wasn't confidential.

At my current shack I have a feeling, though I am not sure, that emails to the vicar are likely to go in the first instance to the parish administrator, whom I happen to know is rather seriously off sick.

The point is, unless you're sure emails to the vicar only go to the vicar, don't put anything in them that you don't mind other people knowing about.

Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Rolyn, I'm sorry, but I find that shocking.

Shocking because I don't visit sick folks ?

I think maybe Belle ringer has put it better than me .

I talking Anglican rural Churches here , and just telling it the way it is .
We've had vicars here who do their job and hold it together the best they can . I wouldn't expect a visit from them if I were bed-ridden, nor would I feel comfortable approaching them with personal problems.

I don't come from a Church background but get the feeling 60 or 70 years ago one might have expected different.

Posted by Arethosemyfeet (# 17047) on :

I would have thought you should expect different now. All the priests and ministers I know spend a considerable part of their week on visiting the sick and housebound.

Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on :

Okay , I'm missing something then .
If which case Nikon user has the right to feel aggrieved as , regardless of any e-mails that did or didn't get received , the vicar should have made enquiries simply because of this person's absence.

Posted by fletcher christian (# 13919) on :

I can see the point Rolyn is making - you can't know that someone is ill and would like a visit if nobody tells you. A vicar can't be expected to be a mind reader. I guess there are also people, who when sick, do not wish to see anyone, so just 'popping in' unannounced might be greeted badly. I can see another side to paying a visit to (or even making a phone call to) someone who has been absent from church for a few weeks. Some, I understand, might hugely appreciate it, yet others might think the Vicar is drumming up business and watching everyones' every move and either get a bit creeped out or annoyed. And then there is the situation too when someone decides to leave a community and they may not greatly appreciate phone calls or visits. Weigh this up with those who feel the church should be professional in all dealings with those who feel the element of community overweighs such conduct, and a vicar who has a long list of the sick whom he or she knows want to be visited, and the fact that over the last few weeks, said vicar from the OP has likely been juggling time and priorities to write something of value in sermons and craft liturgy for the most important time in the Christian year so that those who come don't feel disappointed that they got nothing of substance. It can very easily turn into a 'damned if you do - damned if you don't' situation.

Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
I would have thought you should expect different now. All the priests and ministers I know spend a considerable part of their week on visiting the sick and housebound.

All the priests and ministers I know, don't. If someone is in the hospital, yes, once. They are busy with running the institution - paperwork to regional and national, planning Christmas and lent and holy week and childrens program and vacation bible school and summer vacation replacement, office hours with stressed marriages and people complaining about the music or the wrong color flowers, studying and writing sermons, and committee meetings most evenings.

No time to take the couple hours to drive several miles and spend half an hour with someone who has stopped showing up at church for whatever reason. And any parish has dozens of elderly who long for a visit (from anyone), full time visiting wouldn't reach everyone once a week, which two or three or half dozen do you choose to visit out of the many?

So a lot don't try. They figure visiting is the job of family and friends. But many people don't really have friends, not the kind who can take time to help, friends are working two jobs plus caring for their own kids and their elderly mom.

In a different era when the clergy guy stayed in one spot his whole career, he had a personal relationship with everyone in the church, visiting was being with people he knew. Today they move every few years, barely know your name much less your fears and dreams and harmless quirks; plus the clergy selection system is strongly biased toward bookish introverts but that personality tends to be uncomfortable initiating conversions with strangers.

The whole environment wars against the homey image of a clergy person stopping by for tea with each member once a month - or ever, including when sick.

It takes a squeaky wheel to get attention. If you are part of the in-group (every church has an in-group) they'll squeak for you. If not in-group, it's up to your spouse to squeak loudly and often. If you are unspoused and too sick to be persistent yourself, out of sight out of mind. (But catch-22, self-persistence is taken as "proof" you aren't really sick, so you are written off as a nuisance for advocating for yourself.)

Live in reality. Look elsewhere for help.

As to all the work you did - institutions don't do gratitude for the past. Their focus is who's around to help NOW and tomorrow with present needs.

Pick a church that has "people like me" with whom you will easily make some personal friendships, those personal church friends are the ones who will help. Ignore theology, ignore style, people is what matters.

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

We're maybe jumping the gun a bit here. Our OP at this time no reason to think anybody has even seen the email, much less treated it dismissively.

Since we are discussing those hypothetical scenarios, howver, I will say in reply to rolyn that what shocked me was not thathe might be overworked: it was that he would do no more than reply via email, "Sorry to hear that. Best wishes."

There's a human duty, never mind a pastoral duty, to respond more adequately than that to a person in crisis--even if they approach you as strangers on the street. At the very least a phone call would be in order--and I'm presuming the pastor has no communication issues that preventhim from trying. Again, if you're covering a multipoint parish, one of your first responsinilities is to identify local sources that can provide tge care you are humanly unable to do--whether that be an elder or two, old Mrs Harris (who knows everybody) or at the very worst a couple of decent local professionals you can refer leople to and make introductions if tge situation is such that tge person in crisiscan'f do it themselves.

Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
what shocked me was not that he might be overworked: it was that he would do no more than reply via email, "Sorry to hear that. Best wishes."

In my limited experience it's pretty common to not reply to emails saying "I'm sick." The email is taken as a request to be put on the sick prayer list, or as informing that you won't be showing up so they know to carry on without you.

When you show up again you'll be told "we got your message, glad to see you're well now."

Posted by dv (# 15714) on :

It might also be helpful to see if your Diocese can put you in touch with a Spiritual Director who can work alongside you on your spiritual dilemmas.

In the Anglican diocese where I'm based (Liverpool) anyone - regardless of denomination - can request an initial meeting with a SD and all sessions are free and confidential. SDs will have undergone vetting and training and may be lay or ordained. The accompaniment arrangement can be short or long-term. I know many other diocese offer a similar ministry.

[ 30. March 2013, 17:13: Message edited by: dv ]

Posted by Codepoet (# 5964) on :

In my own experience of being a clergy person, we spend a lot of effort trying to get to find out what is going on in the lives of our parishoners. Often they only seem to want to talk to you all at the same time in the 5 minutes after the service as they walk out the door of the church. Ths is not possible with comgreagations of 160, so we end up spending the rest of theweek trying to catch up with everyone that we feel needs catching up with, and trying to find ou what is going on with various people.
I would therefore be surprised if the vicar had recieved your message and ignored it, it sounds to lke like a good oppertunity to spend some time with you, provide some support and get to you yo a bit better. Soome people are frustratingly rubbish with email - they publicise ole email addresses, they do not read them as often as they could, they do not know how to set their computer up correctly etc etc. Try telephoning (I know this is hard, but at least it would get their attention), try writting a letter, try asking another parishoner to pass on a message.
A lot of pastoral ministry seems to be finding excuses to spend time with people, without then feeling like you are stalking them. I very much doubt that you would be being ignored by this vicar deliberatly.

Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on :

quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:

quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Rolyn, I'm sorry, but I find that shocking.
Shocking because I don't visit sick folks ?

I think maybe Belle ringer has put it better than me .

I talking Anglican rural Churches here , and just telling it the way it is .
We've had vicars here who do their job and hold it together the best they can . I wouldn't expect a visit from them if I were bed-ridden, nor would I feel comfortable approaching them with personal problems.

I don't come from a Church background but get the feeling 60 or 70 years ago one might have expected different.

There may also be something of a cultural difference from the US here. Was talking to my Dad (who is CofE in a tradish rural parish). He reckoned a visit would be more likely to suggested if you were older or more critically ill. (He is over 70, the vicar came out to see him after he was discharged from hospital after a life-threatening emergency admission.)

Mum felt if you just stopped attending the local church, they would be more likely to ask around to see what had happened than contact you directly.

Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
We're maybe jumping the gun a bit here. Our OP at this time no reason to think anybody has even seen the email, much less treated it dismissively.

Since we are discussing those hypothetical scenarios, however, I will say in reply to rolyn that what shocked me was not that he might be overworked: it was that he would do no more than reply via email, "Sorry to hear that. Best wishes."

I know my remarks have panned this thread out into a debate and wouldn't want Nikon User to think me insensitive . Maybe one of the Ship's support threads would be more appropriate in this instance.

Nevertheless ISTM it's a debate worth having .
I do sympathise with the vicar of today, (providing they're pulling their weight ). And agree that he or she is often in a no-win situation on the matter of visiting, and/or enquiring after sick folk .

BTW LC . Thanks for clearing up the 'shocked' thing . I wasn't exactly meaning the vicar in question should write a single sentence. Also I'm not some heartless wotsit who wouldn't help someone with a specific need who asked for help .
Just to add , I believe God works through all people even if they call themselves non-Christians .

Posted by Zacchaeus (# 14454) on :

There is a problem today with church attendance patterns. People no longer come every week and it can take several weeks before anybody realises that somebody is actually missing from church and not just on one of their ‘off’ weeks.

Life for modern clergy is very different to past times. The previous vicar in one church I attended used to spend all his afternoons visiting and walking around the parish. We were always hearing ‘aaah rev, B now there WAS a vicar’

Today that parish is has doubled in number and the current vicar has more than one parish, add into the mix that like many professions today, the current clergy spend vast amounts of time on paperwork. And you get a situation were visiting, however much they might want to, is except for emergencies, way down the list of priorities for many clergy.
Which is not to say, that I think it right for the vicar to ignore your e-mail, but taking into consideration all the caveats about whether he actually got it or not. I do know of admin set ups, particularly in large parishes, where the admin staff ‘screen’ the contacts for the clergy. A couple of years ago, a friend whose her mother in law was seriously ill, could not get hold of the vicar, as the office screened everything and the vicars number was not available. Seriously, the vicar was more like the CEO of an organisation and developed staff to do everything for him. A message had to be left in the office for anything and everything there was no way of personally contacting the vicar, my friend left the message but nobody ever visited her M-I-L.

Alternatively clergy without admin support can be dealing with a hundred e-mails a day, from sales to pastoral situation to people wanting to trace family trees, and I know some non techie clergy who rarely check their e-mails at all. Maybe recheck the mail that you sent and see if the vicar would have picked up from what you said how bad you were feeling – remember some clergy can be dense at subtleties

The point of all this, is do not assume just yet that you have been ignored, try another medium of contact to see if that gets a response and maybe try a local church to you to keep you in touch with God in the meantime. xx
[Votive]

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

Sorry, rolyn, feeling a bit raw because I've been coping for some years now with an utterly clueless pastor colleague who would indeed send a one line "there's you taken care of then" email with no further followup at all, even in a case of threatened suicide or similarly grave case. And when tackled on it, would turn a surprised and innocent face and say something like "but i had to sort out the youth fundraiser" etc. We spend some of our vast amounts of free time doing damage control and picking up the pieces of the human beings he walks right over, never noticing. I've given up trying to make a dent in his invincible ignorance. And all the while he asks why people are leaving his congregation in droves.

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

Tried to ETA but can't:

There are pastors who through no fault of their own are simply not able to cope with visitation type stuff--certain Asperger's friends I know come to mind. But in such cases it is doubly or triply imperative that the pastor get someone else to pick up this critical need he can't deliver--whether that be a full-fledged pastor of visitation to help, or just old Granny Smith, but SOMEBODY.

Posted by Mere Nick (# 11827) on :

I've heard the term "vicar" but it seems we don't have them around here that I've ever heard of. Or maybe we're all a bunch of vicars. It sounds like too much is expected of the just one guy. In our congregation we have several elders (aka shepherds, overseers) that seem to the congregation to meet the 1 Timothy 3 definition, a preacher or two, and one another. A prayer list is updated every week for the bulletin and lots of folks facebook each other. If you are up against it there's all sorts of folks besides just the elders praying for you and that you can call on if they aren't checking up on you, already. No one should have to go it alone if they have brothers and sisters in Christ.

Posted by Zacchaeus (# 14454) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
I've heard the term "vicar" but it seems we don't have them around here that I've ever heard of. Or maybe we're all a bunch of vicars. It sounds like too much is expected of the just one guy. In our congregation we have several elders (aka shepherds, overseers) that seem to the congregation to meet the 1 Timothy 3 definition, a preacher or two, and one another. A prayer list is updated every week for the bulletin and lots of folks facebook each other. If you are up against it there's all sorts of folks besides just the elders praying for you and that you can call on if they aren't checking up on you, already. No one should have to go it alone if they have brothers and sisters in Christ.

There is a lot in this - Because of the CofE set up with the clergy leading and historically it was a case of the clergy doing everything. There are a lot of congragations who have never got past this model of the VICAR.

So many time I have heard (and this is NOTHING to do with the OP and not aimed at them at all) 'the church have never been near me' when you investigate many church members have been to visit, but the vicar hasn't. It seems that for some people only the vicar counts..

Posted by Mere Nick (# 11827) on :

Thanks for splainin'.

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

I read somewhere once that the decline in (Anglican) church attendance in the UK has actually led to an increasing burden upon the clergy, because there are fewer laypeople to share in the work, many more people to look after in each parish, and fewer vicars altogether.

Belle Ringer's comments about church life in her part of the USA are instructive, especially this bit:

quote:

Pick a church that has "people like me" with whom you will easily make some personal friendships, those personal church friends are the ones who will help. Ignore theology, ignore style, people is what matters.

In the UK, this means that most young or middle aged Christians will eventually have to attend evangelical or possibly RC churches, because these will be the only ones with the critical mass of people to ensure some kind of pastoral support, formal or informal. Then the question will be whether evangelical churches with heterogenous congregations can really be said to be evangelical. Will these churches be able to retain the substance that made them attractive in the first place? That's a subject for another discussion.

Posted by Amika (# 15785) on :

The vicar of my local church has been in post for over 25 years, so I imagine he counts as 'old school'. Either way, when it comes to emails he will respond very quickly if the person is clearly distressed. Less urgent ones, not so much! He actually told me that as a person living in the parish (despite my being a non-believer) I was entitled to his time if I should need it. I realize Nikon User doesn't live in the actual parish, but I think a follow up email would be a very good idea.

Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:

There are pastors who through no fault of their own are simply not able to cope with visitation type stuff--certain Asperger's friends I know come to mind. But in such cases it is doubly or triply imperative that the pastor get someone else to pick up this critical need he can't deliver--whether that be a full-fledged pastor of visitation to help, or just old Granny Smith, but SOMEBODY.

Exactly. And this applies whether he can't provide pastoral care because he's not good with people, or because he's too busy running the youth group fundraiser or whatever.

I could reasonably argue that, in fact, he has no more important job than ensuring those members of his parish who are infirm for whatever reason and can't make it to the service in church have access to the sacraments. And yes, time and manpower constraints might make that a once every six weeks thing rather than every week, and it might usually be a lay visitor rather than a priest, but the vicar really has to get this done.

And yes, this is down to the vicar. Lay visitors can carry the sacrament to the sick, but the vicar has to get them trained and authorized, has to see that the sacrament is transported with appropriate care and respect, and so on. He doesn't have to do everything himself, but he does have to lead and organize it.

Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Sorry, rolyn, feeling a bit raw because I've been coping for some years now with an utterly clueless pastor ...

Hey ,no need to apologise LC , nothing I like more than a good debate [Smile]

. Misunderstandings easily occur .

Hope your pastoral probs find some resolution . I could write a whole page of vicar rant ,(better not) . It's not that I been ever so active in Church life, but I also work for a memorial mason who regularly deals with vicars . Sometimes things get fraught over admin etc . so I get to hear rather more than I should.

Coming back to topic, Mere Nick has hit the nail by saying way to much is fallen on one guy. Expectations of what this one person can come up with are totally unrealistic .
It's as if the CofE is trapped in the 19th Century, and in the meantime the whole ground has shifted under our feet without any of us really realising.

Posted by maryjones (# 13523) on :

Our "weekly sheet " has notices of forthcoming events, prayer list and a request to contact the Vicar if you know of anyone who needs visiting.
Re the possibilities of the e-mail having gone astray, it does happen, particularly if your ISP goes off for a few minutes. I'm reminded of the verse;

quote:
The doctor went to see her but the vicar didn’t go
But the doctor had been sent for and the vicar didn’t know.
The doctor got rewarded with a nice little cheque
But the Vicar for not knowing simply got it in the neck!

Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :

When it comes to pastoral support, team ministry works best. As does a single, well-manned, point of contact (email and phone options).

Pastoral care always drops between the cracks if left solely to the church minister to both manage and visit. Or to some kind of "Brownian motion" view of good neighbouring.

It's true that some folks seem to expect the news of their current troubles to be somehow signalled by their absence. While that can happen, I'm not sure it's a reasonable expectation. Unsolicited contact can also be construed as nosiness. Seen that as well.

I think churches which function well in this respect have both active homegroups which are the first pick-up point and a well manned church office for contacts from folks not so actively engaged in home groups. That's a good "belt and braces" support for good neighbouring.

Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on :

quote:
Originally posted by maryjones:
I'm reminded of the verse;

quote:
The doctor went to see her but the vicar didn’t go
But the doctor had been sent for and the vicar didn’t know.
The doctor got rewarded with a nice little cheque
But the Vicar for not knowing simply got it in the neck!

Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on :

Local church has a dozen people trained as Stephen Ministers. Their (volunteer) job is to do ongoing visiting and praying with people who request it. They don't get to do much, too many people discount anyone who isn't official clergy.

But clergy don't have time, modern churches (many of them) have so many programs and each one is a minefield of personalities and politics to be managed somehow by the clergy person trying to hold the church together and deal with competing uses for the tightly limited budget of money time and space.

We need to dismantle the "one person is the only 'man of God'" approach. It puts to much expectation on that one clergy person.

I showed up in church today after 3 months absence due to illness. Lots of "heard you were sick, hope you are better."

In 3 months not one response to emails notifying church staff, clergy, choir director, committee members I was sick. In their mind, they responded - put me on the sick list, didn't wait the start of committee meeting for me to show up, cancelled the solo I was to sing and substituted something else, didn't ask me to stuff Easter eggs, etc.

From past experience I knew there would be no response to my emails other than (maybe) putting me on the prayer list.

Friends called to check up on me, offered ride to doctor, brought some fresh food, prayed or told me they were praying, etc. Friends are what you need, not an impersonal institution. Pick a church where you can make friends. People can take care of each other; churches can't. Even of willing, they simply can't.

Posted by churchgeek (# 5557) on :

Nikon user,

You mention that you'd been involved in ministry at this church - are there any ministry heads (a person, possibly lay/volunteer who makes the rota, trains folks, or otherwise directs an individual ministry or multiple ministries)? They might be a good person to contact.

The vicar or head minister at any church tends to get the most attention from everyone, so they will get a flood of emails and all kinds of distractions.

Still, I should think any ministry leader would have noticed you're not available to serve, and might have contacted you to see how you're doing.

I second Esmeralda's recommendation of our private board, Waving Not Drowning. It's a good support group!

Any other help you can get - professional/medical, support groups, whatever - is also very important.

And I'm sorry you've seemingly slipped through the cracks at your church. It's inexcusable, even though we can name a million reasons why it might have happened. This is a good reminder to anyone here who works at or is involved in a church: There need to be structures set up in advance to make sure things like this don't happen.

I work at a large cathedral, so there's lots of staff, both clergy and lay, and lots of volunteers. Each of our many ministries has its own head (I direct the Altar Guild, for instance). So the ministries are one channel for this sort of communication to happen. We also have a web form and an email address for prayer requests which gets distributed to a list of people so we can add names to our prayer lists and someone on the pastoral team can contact the person if they request it. We also have a "pastoral person" on call each day; they will be ready to attend to any emergencies, and they carry a designated phone on their day so that they can always be reached.

Obviously, not all places can do exactly what we do, but a larger church is also more likely to have many more cracks for people to fall through. We're not perfect, either.

But any church of any size can look at their resources and come up with some kind of a plan to make sure people in need can connect with someone who can offer any help the Church has to offer (prayers, listening, Sacraments, etc.). It has to be planned, and adjusted as you see how it works or doesn't. You can't just assume things will work out and people will reach the vicar and the vicar will have time.

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