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Originally posted by NJA:
With so many churches failing to bring in people, and/or lose previous customers, would it be a good idea for a proven professional to go around sorting things out?

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Originally posted by NJA:
With so many churches failing to bring in people, and/or lose previous customers, would it be a good idea for a proven professional to go around sorting things out?

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Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
... Maybe some people who give sermons / talks could benefit from training in presentation skills, and a church setting up a new youth club might find it useful to bring in some support from trained youth workers.

Is this the kind of thing you were getting at, NJA, or did you have something else in mind?

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Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:

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Originally posted by NJA:
With so many churches failing to bring in people, and/or lose previous customers, would it be a good idea for a proven professional to go around sorting things out?

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Well, I'll provide a counterpoint to the earlier replies! I think there is a place for churches to seek guidance from a 'proven professional' on certain matters.

Maybe some people who give sermons / talks could benefit from training in presentation skills, and a church setting up a new youth club might find it useful to bring in some support from trained youth workers.

Is this the kind of thing you were getting at, NJA, or did you have something else in mind?

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Originally posted by NJA:

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Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
... Maybe some people who give sermons / talks could benefit from training in presentation skills, and a church setting up a new youth club might find it useful to bring in some support from trained youth workers.

Is this the kind of thing you were getting at, NJA, or did you have something else in mind?

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Yes, or more macro change. I know some have joined an umbrella group for guidance or sought a new pastor.

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
The main problem generally seems to be that folk know what they need to do but have little idea how to do it.

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Originally posted by IngoB:

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
The main problem generally seems to be that folk know what they need to do but have little idea how to do it.

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If that were the main problem, then rather obviously professional knowhow could be valuable.

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Originally posted by NJA:
With so many churches failing to bring in people, and/or lose previous customers, would it be a good idea for a proven professional to go around sorting things out?

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Originally posted by Jade Constable:
It's church, not a board meeting. Where is the sense of the numinous in presentation skills??

And what would a 'proven professional' even look like? Particularly in a church as diverse as the CoE or even the Baptist church.

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Originally posted by NJA:
With so many churches failing to bring in people, and/or lose previous customers, would it be a good idea for a proven professional to go around sorting things out?

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Originally posted by Jade Constable:
...And what would a 'proven professional' even look like?

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Clue. He'd probably be wearing a mitre.

Seriously, isn't that the Bishops job? (for Anglicans/RCs at least)

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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."

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Originally posted by Albertus:
We should always be ready to learn from someone else. The 'sense of the numinous' test is bit of a blind alley IMO: if you're going to so something, do it as well as you can- whether that's preaching a sermon, choreographing a full solemn Snog & Bendies, or doing something with powerpoints or a praise band. All of these require skills that can be learned and honed, and if you know someone who does them well, it makes sense to see what they can teach you (or someone else who needs to learn a bit more).
What I don't like is the idea of looking for some wonderworking 'expert' who can come in and turn everything around to follow a 'proven' model of what a 'successful' church looks like.

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Actually, I agree with Jade Constable on 'the sense of the numinous' ... although that would look a little different for a devout Roman Catholic than it would for a charismatic evangelical, for example. There are other examples.

At the same time, it is a worthy thing to aim for excellence in presentation. Without becoming a control freak about it. Clarity in communication is also key.

[We have several people in our congregation who are experienced am-dram players. When some of them are asked to read Scripture in church, they do so beautifully, infusing the passage with appropriate emotion and drama, but never over-doing this and certainly never showing off. (Ugh. That would have no place.) They are committed Christians and take the reading of Scripture seriously. That's just an example of excellence in presentation ... there are many others.]

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"I fear that to me Siamese cats belong to the fauna of Mordor." J.R.R. Tolkien

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Originally posted by Mark Betts:

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Originally posted by NJA:
With so many churches failing to bring in people, and/or lose previous customers, would it be a good idea for a proven professional to go around sorting things out?

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Originally posted by Jade Constable:
...And what would a 'proven professional' even look like?

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Clue. He'd probably be wearing a mitre.

Seriously, isn't that the Bishops job? (for Anglicans/RCs at least)

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
...the Ramsey model is "we don't know what's wrong (except we're empty most of the time), please come and tell us what we're doing wrong and fix it for us". I think it's more "we know what's wrong and what we need to do but struggle to know exactly how" which is subtly but importantly different.

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Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:

quote:

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Originally posted by Jade Constable:
It's church, not a board meeting. Where is the sense of the numinous in presentation skills??

And what would a 'proven professional' even look like? Particularly in a church as diverse as the CoE or even the Baptist church.

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Yes, I'm with you on the sense of the numinous, but God wants us each to give of our best and develop our skills in order that we can serve him better, right? I just think training from the secular sphere might help in certain areas, including the couple I mentioned.

As for the larger-scale change that NJA seems to have in mind, I'm not so sure. Personally, I don't think churches should simply copy the management theory and structures of the secular world, but that's really just because of my 'small is best' views regarding church structure. I could easily imagine a large church with a staff team of several dozen finding it useful to get some guidance on HR issues, change management etc. Why not?

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I'm struggling to imagine a church with a total membership of several dozen, never mind leadership team...

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Originally posted by Jade Constable:
I'm struggling to imagine a church with a staff team of several dozen aside from cathedrals... I am very uneasy about treating churches like businesses or even schools - why not have inter-denomination or even ecumenical assistance for churches that need it, rather than from the secular world?

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Originally posted by IngoB:

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
The main problem generally seems to be that folk know what they need to do but have little idea how to do it.

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If that were the main problem, then rather obviously professional knowhow could be valuable.

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Originally posted by North East Quine:

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Originally posted by IngoB:

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
The main problem generally seems to be that folk know what they need to do but have little idea how to do it.

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If that were the main problem, then rather obviously professional knowhow could be valuable.

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We "know" how to fill our pews; the Annual Thinking Day service is full, Remembrance Sunday is packed, we have come close to turning people away from a standing-room only Christingle.

A full church for us is about 300. What we don't know is how to get those people to turn up on an ordinary Sunday, when the congregation averages 80-100, of whom at least half are aged over 70.

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I think it's Ken who's keen on observing that the main reason people don't bother with church is they're not Christians.

I think he over-eggs the pudding a little (call on him three times and he might just appear!) and I think there are is a considerable constituency of dechurched and Christian-but-disenchanted-with-organised-religion*. If we think that church attendance is worthwhile and important, then they are a constituency it's worth engaging with.

Nevertheless, the reason that the vast majority of people who don't come to church don't come to church is because they aren't Christians. So why would they?

So there are two constituencies you are aiming yourself at - the unchurched and the dechurched. The experience seems to be that attempts to reach the former tend to net quite a lot of the latter - certainly this has tended to happen in some FE setups.

*CofE - organised anything?

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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Originally posted by North East Quine:
So we know bread and circuses fills the church. But should we really be doing that just to fill the church?

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Nevertheless, the reason that the vast majority of people who don't come to church don't come to church is because they aren't Christians. So why would they?

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Goodness no. I know your comment wasn't addressed to me, NEQ, but I just want to be clear that I don't think churches should willy-nilly take on the practices and values of secular organisations. Sorry if I've given that impression upthread!

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Originally posted by North East Quine:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:

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Goodness no. I know your comment wasn't addressed to me, NEQ, but I just want to be clear that I don't think churches should willy-nilly take on the practices and values of secular organisations. Sorry if I've given that impression upthread!

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No, you hadn't given me that impression!

This is an issue that bothers me a lot - are the occasion full-to-bursting services actually a good thing?

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Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:

It's easy for Anglicans to talk about the advantages of smallness when the CofE has the means to subsidise large church buildings attended by only a few congregants. For the Methodists, small congregations = closure, unless they're able to finance themselves though generating a strong rental income, which many of them (perhaps most) now do. Neither 'model' really depends on 'bringing people in', or keeping hold of the ones you have. [/QB]

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Originally posted by Zacchaeus:

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Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:

It's easy for Anglicans to talk about the advantages of smallness when the CofE has the means to subsidise large church buildings attended by only a few congregants. For the Methodists, small congregations = closure, unless they're able to finance themselves though generating a strong rental income, which many of them (perhaps most) now do. Neither 'model' really depends on 'bringing people in', or keeping hold of the ones you have.

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I don't know where youget the idea that the CofE can subsise the large buildings of local churches. The parish church bills are paid for by the congregation - I know too many congregations whose energies are tied up with keeping the building going and nothing else (but that's a different argument)

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Originally posted by sososlowly:
A couple of things, probably exhibiting my usual (high) degree of randomness:

(1) I'm a bit worried about the duality being set up here between the Church and the world. The earth is the Lord's and all that dwells therein and all that... If expertise from non-clergy (or even non-Christians) is helpful then we should use it. The challenge is to discern what is helpful and what is assimilating ourselves to a fallen world. That is a theological task.

(2) Churchgoers aren't customers. But we have some of the same needs as customers and we don't always know we're not customers (if we're new, un-churched for example). I'd argue that some basic good customer service, like clear, attractive notice boards, an up to date and informative web site, and a smile when you arrive are all things we could take from the best shops and restaurants without any danger of sidelining the Kingdom.

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Originally posted by Jade Constable:
I however would not want a secular organisation to help because they would not be able to understand a church's unique needs. I do think the workings of the Holy Spirit would play a role here.

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Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:

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Originally posted by Jade Constable:
I however would not want a secular organisation to help because they would not be able to understand a church's unique needs. I do think the workings of the Holy Spirit would play a role here.

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But a church's needs are not unique if you keep a tight scope on the help you're bringing in, IMO. Most churches wouldn't insist on a Christian plumber or a Christian office equipment supplier, so why insist on a Christian teacher if some people need singing lessons, or on a Christian sound engineer for your PA operator? In fact, sometimes bringing in an 'outsider' might even have advantages; a fresh perspective and all that...

And the workings of the Holy Spirit seem not to override, for example, the mumbling diction of some preachers or the overly-flamboyant and showy nature of some musicians' playing. Or any number of other technical deficiencies that could be addressed with some training. I'll be the first person to say technical excellence isn't the be all and end all, but ISTM the Holy Spirit doesn't cover our rank incompetence!

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I have visions of a kind of Mary Portas figure going around showing churches how to sort out their notice-boards, stack their hymn books in an attractive manner, train welcome teams to smile at visitors or passers-by ...

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Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:

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Originally posted by Zacchaeus:

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Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:

It's easy for Anglicans to talk about the advantages of smallness when the CofE has the means to subsidise large church buildings attended by only a few congregants. For the Methodists, small congregations = closure, unless they're able to finance themselves though generating a strong rental income, which many of them (perhaps most) now do. Neither 'model' really depends on 'bringing people in', or keeping hold of the ones you have.

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I don't know where youget the idea that the CofE can subsise the large buildings of local churches. The parish church bills are paid for by the congregation - I know too many congregations whose energies are tied up with keeping the building going and nothing else (but that's a different argument)

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Can the small congregations I've seen really be paying for the upkeep of large, ancient buildings all by themselves? If so, they must be donating astronomical sums of money from their own pockets! Obviously, there's fundraising for specific issues, such roof repairs, etc. Maybe the funding of church properties works differently from parish to parish. I know that some churches, Anglican and otherwise, apply for access to special pots of money destined to support specific charitable activities. Lottery funding fits into this category.

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Originally posted by ButchCassidy:
It appears that the Priest idol church did v well, but was shut by fire:

http://www.itv.com/news/calendar/2012-12-15/priest-idol-church-reopens/

In general, wanted to say agree with sososlowly, South Coast Kevin et al. God invented advertising, finance, voice training: yes they can all be used for wrong ends and perverted, but that doesn't mean we need not use them for good, as they were intended to be and as sososlowly rightly says. I'm surprised that those of a more catholic bent seem to be opposing this surely incarnational understanding.

Where in scripture does it say we should disdain secular methods? Did Paul shy away from approaching people where they are? Or did he become as they are to win them to Christ (1 Cor 9:20). If modern people need modern methods to draw them to Christ, so be it.

This does not mean we need abandon the Gospel. Use secular coaches to teach the way we teach the Gospel, not teach us how to form the Gospel itself. Better still, use Christian coaches! I note the medieval Minster idea - of a resource church holding specialists which can be used to assist local churches - is coming back into fashion, see the new CofE Latimer Minster congregation. Also see US 'good practice in ministry' sites such as Resurgence - where are the UK books on How to Grow your Church spiritually and numerically?

None of this need sacrifice the Gospel, or abandon discipleship. A church growing spiritually will also grow numerically (through relationship evangelism if nothing else).

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Originally posted by ButchCassidy:
God invented advertising, finance, voice training: yes they can all be used for wrong ends and perverted, but that doesn't mean we need not use them for good... Where in scripture does it say we should disdain secular methods?... This does not mean we need abandon the Gospel. Use secular coaches to teach the way we teach the Gospel, not teach us how to form the Gospel itself. Better still, use Christian coaches!

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Originally posted by sososlowly:

And we do our clergy, and ourselves, no favours, if we eschew the wisdom that there is on this topic merely because it's secular.

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This, indeed. And whilst the transition to a team ministry might be an extreme example, it's also true of the everyday bread-and-butter - things like making people aware of what service to expect at what time (particularly in the game of musical services that team ministries usually play ). So you have a church noticeboard? That's nice, but is there a clear and consistent distinction between the calendar of services for the next month, the message from the vicar, and adverts for a bible study group or a concert in a neighbouring parish, or is everything jumbled together?

sososlowly is in retail, so I'm sure he knows that there is lots of money invested in the study of how people move around stores, where their attention is drawn and in what order. The people sitting in our pews are the same people - it does no harm to learn from those who have studied their behaviour.