Ship of Fools: The SS or the Devil - who do you want to win?

Thread: The SS or the Devil - who do you want to win? Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by deano (# 12063) on :

Here’s an interesting question raised from a book I’m reading. The book in question is “The Keep” by F. Paul Wilson.

I am not a fan of horror stories but I was recommended this author and I have to admit it is a very good book. Streets ahead of Stephen King.

Anyway, the gist of the book is that a group of soldiers in Romania take up residence in a castle. They disturb a monster and it starts killing off the soldiers. They bring in an expert.

The twist is that the soldiers are a squadron of SS who are on their way to build and start running a concentration camp in Romania. The expert is a Romanian Jew.

The monster doesn’t care about religion or social class. It just hates the idea of an invading army killing Romanians.

The monster offers to kill Hitler to stop the war and the genocide, which it can do very easily. The expert now has to ponder, does he agree to the deal with the monster/devil to stop his own people (Romanians and Jews) being murdered, knowing that the monster will need to keep killing afterwards. Or does he shun the deal with the monster/devil, and allow the SS to continue its programme of extermination.

It’s a very interesting question and very well written. By the way, I haven’t written a spoiler, all the above is part of the blurb of the book which you can find online.

What would you do if you were the expert? Save you and your family’s lives with a deal, knowing that the monster will keep killing afterwards, just not you and yours? Or allow the SS to continue, but knowing they can be beaten in the long run because they are humans?

A final twist is that the monster is afraid of the cross and of Christ’s name and works. The expert, a Jew, realises that his faith is therefore wrong. The monster is primal, an evil that existed before man, and that for it to be afraid of the cross is because Christ truly did represent the way of salvation. How would that affect your decision, knowing you have the chance to stop millions of Jews being murdered by the SS, but you have absolute proof that their religion is wrong and Christianity is right.

It’s an interesting moral dilemma that the author has set up. What are your thoughts?

Posted by Amos (# 44) on :

Gosh. Christian Nazi Horror. Talk about sub-genres.

I would put down the book and take up another, better one. Maybe Ricoeur on 'The Symbolism of Evil.' Maybe Primo Levi's 'If This is a Man.' Maybe Avishai Margalit's 'On Compromise and Rotten Compromises.'

Then I would be able to ask better questions.

Posted by deano (# 12063) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Amos:
Gosh. Christian Nazi Horror. Talk about sub-genres.

I would put down the book and take up another, better one. Maybe Ricoeur on 'The Symbolism of Evil.' Maybe Primo Levi's 'If This is a Man.' Maybe Avishai Margalit's 'On Compromise and Rotten Compromises.'

Then I would be able to ask better questions.

Talk about missing the point!

It's about having to make a decision each of which will result in dead babies.

I was interested in what processes people here would go through to make that sort of decision.

Posted by Amos (# 44) on :

The point I wished to make is that the book in question in the OP appears to be such a sumpload of seething shite that no intelligent question can possibly be derived from it.

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

This is an offshoot of the old "if you could go back and kill the child Hitler or prevent him from being born..." dilemma. ISTM it would be better to go back and help that little boy so that he never becomes a monster, and lives a healthy life.

With the situation you give, hmmmm...I think try to stop both the SS and the Devil/primal. If any of them are open, you might try to a) rehabilitate them, and b)nudge them toward conversion. (Including the primal, since it's aware of Jesus.) But you couldn't let them go free.

No, I wouldn't try to convert the Jews. I'm a universalist, so I don't think anyone will go to hell. The SS and the primal could use help in this life to become better people. But Christianity has a long history of abusing Jews. Don't make that any worse!

Posted by Lord Jestocost (# 12909) on :

I have to admit you pose a question to which I have not recently given that much thought.

I may have dwelt upon the subject when 2000 A.D. ran Fiends of the Eastern Front from February-May 1980. Still haven't come up with an answer, though.

Posted by Demas (# 24) on :

Also a funky 80s movie with Ian McKellen as said Jew and much Tangerine Dream synthesiser action [Yipee]

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

There's a story about a Christian monastery that has the Devil locked up. He tries to talk people into letting him out. I think it was made into a "Twilight Zone" episode.

Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on :

The synopsis of the book (I've not read it, and have no real intention of doing so) doesn't suggest that it would offer an answer to the question asked. The 'monster' doesn't appear to be portayed as a monster - it doesn't act as a force of pure evil, but reacts in defence of the people of Romania. It has clearly been resting in it's castle, without unduly worring the local people, until the SS occupy the castle and arouse it. The solution to the "monster problem" is simple, stop killing Romanians.

As for the angle of the creature being afraid of Christian symbols (and, thereby 'proving' Judaism false), this seems to be a very poor literary device that seems on the surface to be pushing an agenda (even, anti-semetic). It smells of someone pushing a particular Christian philosphy through a piece of literature (somehow it reminds me of Frank Peretti).

The author could have the creature afraid of holy objects (irrespective of the faith they're associated with), which would at least conform to the expectations of the genre. It would be a reasonable step to make the creature contemptouous of such objects when used by the SS, considering their claim to be Christian false (something akin to Raider fo the Lost Ark where the Nazis are destroyed, even when they bring in a Jewish priest to open it).

Posted by Laurelin (# 17211) on :

OK, I'll play.

The monster is a weapon. I would deploy it in order to kill Hitler and the SS and save Jews.

The monster is also a loose cannon. I would not allow it to just keep on killing other folk. I'd find a way to try and stop it. [Biased]

I am ignoring what might be an unpleasant anti-Semitic vibe coming from the original plot.

Posted by George Spigot (# 253) on :

Seeing as the monster would go on killing people not of its favored race afterwards its hard to see a great deal of difference between it and the SS.

Posted by Gwai (# 11076) on :

I think Alan has the right of it. Let the Romanian-protector creature kill Hitler, then surround it with Romanians who it apparently doesn't kill and leave it be.

Posted by deano (# 12063) on :

Believe me, there isn't an anti-semitic vibe, and to insinuate there is, is probably a symptom of over-sensitivity.

I have deliberately not included lots of other information available in the book in order to not spoil anything for any potential readers.

The author is well respected in that genre and has quite a few awards to his name. The Keep is the first book in a series that has stretched out to about fifteen novels at the moment, so he's got something going on!

I don't think there is an answer to the problem. Each decision results in a nightmare for someone.

Surrounding it with Romanians isn't the answer as it feeds and will feed on Romanians if nbothing else is available. It is a monster. It just happens to hate foreigners a little more than anyone else.

In fact at one point in its history it allied itself with Vlad the Impailer to be able to feed in the chaos without attracting attention to itself.

But this specific case is just the authors way of setting up an interesting thought experiment; is there a lesser of two evils in this regard?

I haven't got to the end of the book yet to see how the protagonists resolve the situation, but it will be interesting.

[ 05. April 2013, 14:10: Message edited by: deano ]

Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on :

I was thinking more, just stop killing Romanians and let the creature return to it's peaceful rest. No need (within the context of the story) for anyone (or anything) to kill Hitler.

Posted by Raptor Eye (# 16649) on :

The devil is the deceiver par excellence, so there's no point in trying to do any deals as he can't be trusted. Just keep fighting against both evils.

Posted by Hawk (# 14289) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
As for the angle of the creature being afraid of Christian symbols (and, thereby 'proving' Judaism false), this seems to be a very poor literary device that seems on the surface to be pushing an agenda (even, anti-semetic).

quote:
Originally posted by Laurelin:
I am ignoring what might be an unpleasant anti-Semitic vibe coming from the original plot.

So saying that Christianity is true and Judaism is wrong is now anti-semitic? Oh dear.

Posted by mdijon (# 8520) on :

A Jew doing a deal with the devil to save his own people at the expense of other people? With a devil that is afraid of Christian symbols but not Jewish symbols?

That's going a bit further into the anti-Semitism stakes than just saying that the Jews are wrong about Jesus.

Posted by HCH (# 14313) on :

One of the premises of the dilemma seems to be that killing Hitler would necessarily end the war and the persecution of the Jews. Was there any reason to think that was true?

Posted by Jay-Emm (# 11411) on :

quote:

Originally posted by mdijon:
A Jew doing a deal with the devil to save his own people at the expense of other people? With a devil that is afraid of Christian symbols but not Jewish symbols?

That's going a bit further into the anti-Semitism stakes than just saying that the Jews are wrong about Jesus.

Pedantic point- Unless I've missed something (from the extracts given here). We can't be sure of either of these premises.

[ 05. April 2013, 17:32: Message edited by: Jay-Emm ]

Posted by deano (# 12063) on :

Again, without giving away p[lot spoilers for those who may be tempted to read the book, I can state without reservation that there is no anti-semitism there.

In fact I've finished the book this afternoon and there are decent twists to it at the end.

But the premise is still relevant that the author poses, what do you choose when you have to choose between two courses of evil.

We have many on the ship who condemn absolutely any decisions made by governments and the military, almost in a reflex action. What I want to know is how they would react to the situation the expert in the novel finds himself in. Does he collaborate with the Devil or the SS?

Do you kill this baby or that baby? Failing to make a choice will kill both.

I hope it's hypothetical for everyone, but it is a reality for those we entrust with power, so I want to see how we would go about making those sort of decisions.

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
The devil is the deceiver par excellence, so there's no point in trying to do any deals as he can't be trusted. Just keep fighting against both evils.

This.

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
The synopsis of the book (I've not read it, and have no real intention of doing so) doesn't suggest that it would offer an answer to the question asked. The 'monster' doesn't appear to be portayed as a monster - it doesn't act as a force of pure evil, but reacts in defence of the people of Romania.

Sounds like a golem. Which is not the same thing as a demon, but (given its function) may well have grown an aversion to certain holy relics.

Oh, and if that were the case-- definitely going with the golem.

[ 05. April 2013, 18:11: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]

Posted by Lawrence (# 4913) on :

This issue of this Romanian monster afraid of the cross makes me think of that old Roman Polanski movie The Fearless Vampire Killers when someone holds up a cross to one of the vampires and the vampire, who is Jewish, says: Oy vey, have you got the wrong vampire.

Posted by Ondergard (# 9324) on :

I was thinking of the Roman Polanski film, too. The vampire in question was played by British actor Alfie Bass (who happened also to be Jewish) who was playing an innkeeper who got bitten by Dracula.

The exact line was actually, (shrugs, and makes dismissive gesture with hand) "Huh! Have you got the wrong kind of vampire!"

Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on :

I'm going to refer to the wisdom of this philosophical treatise, and call it a night.

Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on :

There is no shortage of bad ideas for drama. Jesus Christ, Vampire Hunter may appeal to the same crowd as this book.

quote:
Wikipedia
The movie begins with Jesus Christ sitting on a beach relaxing and comparing the kingdom of God to a sand castle. He meets up with El Santo and a woman named Mary Magnum. Together they fight lesbian-killing vampires. Jesus fights with mixed martial arts skills and uses his carpentry skills to create weapons to slay vampires.

[ 05. April 2013, 22:09: Message edited by: no prophet ]

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Lawrence:
This issue of this Romanian monster afraid of the cross makes me think of that old Roman Polanski movie The Fearless Vampire Killers when someone holds up a cross to one of the vampires and the vampire, who is Jewish, says: Oy vey, have you got the wrong vampire.

I haven't seen the Polanski movie. But a similar scene and line were in "Love At First Bite". George Hamilton was Dracula, and he was in a romantic triangle with Susan St. James and...Jeff Goldblum, IIRC. The guys are in a fancy restaurant, and Goldblum holds up a Star of David. Dracula shrinks back, reflexively, then sees that it's not a cross. He then says something to the the effect of (IIRC) "oy vey, have you got the wrong vampire; why don't you find a nice *Jewish* girl?"

FWIW.

Posted by Dave W. (# 8765) on :

Youtube provides. (Turns out Van Helsing was played by Richard Benjamin, though, not Jeff Goldblum.)

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