Ship of Fools: Racism ... in cats.

Thread: Racism ... in cats. Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Emily Windsor-Cragg (# 17687) on :

I have a mother cat. She is white and her name is Vanilla.

Since we moved to the forest where there's lots of room, she has delivered no less than three litters of kittens.

Five each time.

Each litter has two or three "REDS" (actually, they're gold in color), one "Calico" and two "GREYS." And Nillie is NOT color-blind!

She hates the Greys, sloughs them off as soon as she can. I get them so they don't starve, and I have to bond with them and feed them every couple of hours for --usually-- two to three weeks after Nillie gets tired of mothering.

The REDS always have her total attention, since they're the closest to her own color. However, they're much larger than the Greys, suck all her milk dry, and they're dumb as doorknobs!

Nillie's grown kittens of the Red variety are the largest cats I have ever encountered ... reaching 10-15# in weight within six months, the size of a canine spaniel.

The GREYS are persistent; but it's the Calicos that are intuitive, intelligent and take initiatives like trying unfamiliar foods, investigating odd and strange places and taking on THE DOG!

They also have different food preferences.

The REDS only drink milk; they have nothing to do with "Kitten food" prepared in anyway whatsoever.

The GREYS will try to eat anything that isn't nailed to the floor.

The Calico is finicky. She drinks lots of milk, but she samples all the other stuff.

Apparently, these preferences affect how the Mother feels about her kittens, and she prefers the kittens who cooperate with her milk producing cycles. She excludes any kitten at four weeks of age who >BITES< her ... which leaves me, Grandma, to the task of feeding ... every two hours for a couple of weeks until unfamiliar foods become routine.

Again, Race is much more than skin deep; and herein lies a predicament for Society: how to educate and socialize consistently but identify and entrain individuals for excellence in skills in which each social component excels.

This is the typical problem that colonialism faces each location it tackles.

Emily [Smile]

Posted by Soror Magna (# 9881) on :

And if people had the same types of family and social structure as house cats, you might have a point.

Posted by Nicolemr (# 28) on :

Get your cat spayed and you won't have to deal with the problem. Letting her breed uncontrolled is irresponsable.

Posted by PaulBC (# 13712) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Emily Windsor-Cragg:
I have a mother cat. She is white and her name is Vanilla.

Since we moved to the forest where there's lots of room, she has delivered no less than three litters of kittens.

Five each time.

Each litter has two or three "REDS" (actually, they're gold in color), one "Calico" and two "GREYS." And Nillie is NOT color-blind!

She hates the Greys, sloughs them off as soon as she can. I get them so they don't starve, and I have to bond with them and feed them every couple of hours for --usually-- two to three weeks after Nillie gets tired of mothering.

The REDS always have her total attention, since they're the closest to her own color. However, they're much larger than the Greys, suck all her milk dry, and they're dumb as doorknobs!

Nillie's grown kittens of the Red variety are the largest cats I have ever encountered ... reaching 10-15# in weight within six months, the size of a canine spaniel.

The GREYS are persistent; but it's the Calicos that are intuitive, intelligent and take initiatives like trying unfamiliar foods, investigating odd and strange places and taking on THE DOG!

They also have different food preferences.

The REDS only drink milk; they have nothing to do with "Kitten food" prepared in anyway whatsoever.

The GREYS will try to eat anything that isn't nailed to the floor.

The Calico is finicky. She drinks lots of milk, but she samples all the other stuff.

Apparently, these preferences affect how the Mother feels about her kittens, and she prefers the kittens who cooperate with her milk producing cycles. She excludes any kitten at four weeks of age who >BITES< her ... which leaves me, Grandma, to the task of feeding ... every two hours for a couple of weeks until unfamiliar foods become routine.

Again, Race is much more than skin deep; and herein lies a predicament for Society: how to educate and socialize consistently but identify and entrain individuals for excellence in skills in which each social component excels.

This is the typical problem that colonialism faces each location it tackles.

Emily

Emily;
very interesting but then why not selection by color in animals as well as in humankind ?
Of course I somehow think this has more to do with nature where as imn humankind it can be by nurture,or lack thereof. Very interesting post [Votive]

Posted by Emily Windsor-Cragg (# 17687) on :

I'm already working with Animal Control and I serve as a foster site for kittens they sell for profit.

Vanilla is due for her spaying, and she will be greatly relieved of the function of "mother."

In addition, some people will happily be the owners of socialized, box-trained, friendly and trusting kittens, whom I have hand-raised.

The mania around sterilizing animals just goes over the top while corporations do more damage in a minute than a loose cat can do in twenty life-times.

Please get your priorities in order. Thanks.

Em [Smile]

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

More than one thing can be important at the same time. Please get your logic in order. Thank you.

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :

My dog Boogie (the pooch I named myself after) was scared of black dogs. All other dogs were seen as playmates - but if he saw a black one he'd cower behind my legs.

Boogie was a Battersea Dogs Home dog so I didn't know about his early experiences - but I'd bet he'd been scared by a big black dog at some stage.

All racism has its roots in fear, does it not?

Posted by Hawk (# 14289) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Emily Windsor-Cragg:
Again, Race is much more than skin deep; and herein lies a predicament for Society: how to educate and socialize consistently but identify and entrain individuals for excellence in skills in which each social component excels.

This is the typical problem that colonialism faces each location it tackles.

Emily

Do tell. In what ways is race not just skin deep? Do people of a certain skin colour not drink their milk? Are others inherently dumb, while people of another skin colour generally more inquisitive and intelligent?

I'd love to hear why on earth you think your little story about cats has any bearing on human racial differences.

Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Emily Windsor-Cragg:
Please get your priorities in order. Thanks.

How rude and condescending this remark is.

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

I, too, would like to hear how race in humans works in your theories. Enquiring minds and all that.

Posted by Bob Two-Owls (# 9680) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
My dog Boogie (the pooch I named myself after) was scared of black dogs. All other dogs were seen as playmates - but if he saw a black one he'd cower behind my legs.

When will people learn that dogs are just not mature enough to watch The Omen unsupervised [Big Grin]

My rescue cat mothered all her 57 varieties of kitten equally, black, white, bi-colour and full tortoiseshell. It is possible for a cat to give birth to a litter fathered by more than one male so could it be that she rejects some on the basis of the father? Just guessing here...

Posted by anne (# 73) on :

Some things that I know (or think I know) about cats:

They are reflex ovulators.
Fat cats are just as good at hunting as thin cats.
They think that I am pleased by gifts of small dead or nearly dead creatures.

None of these things that I think I know about cats are relevant to my relationships with people. Why should the things that you think that you know be any different?

Anne

Posted by anne (# 73) on :

Sorry, I lost track of the boards and thought that I was posting the above in Hell.

Emily, I am sorry for making this post in Purgatory, it was inappropriate to address you like this here.

Anne

Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Bob Two-Owls:

quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
My dog Boogie (the pooch I named myself after) was scared of black dogs. All other dogs were seen as playmates - but if he saw a black one he'd cower behind my legs.
When will people learn that dogs are just not mature enough to watch The Omen unsupervised

My rescue cat mothered all her 57 varieties of kitten equally, black, white, bi-colour and full tortoiseshell. It is possible for a cat to give birth to a litter fathered by more than one male so could it be that she rejects some on the basis of the father? Just guessing here...

Actually it is usual for litters to be fathered by more than one male, since each kitten is from one mating. So a cat who has a litter of 5 kittens has had five matings, with one cat or 5.

Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Emily Windsor-Cragg:
Again, Race is much more than skin deep; and herein lies a predicament for Society: how to educate and socialize consistently but identify and entrain individuals for excellence in skills in which each social component excels.

Having re-read this, it seems to have more than a hint of "[Race A] are born to work in the fields and [Race B] are born to manage them".

Is that really what you're shooting for, here?

Posted by Moo (# 107) on :

You are assuming that you understand how the mother cat perceives her kittens. I think that is a very big stretch.

You classify the kittens into groups according to your perception, and you notice that the mother treats the members of these groups differently. However, you have no way of knowing what the mother's criteria are.

I recently re-read a book by James Herriot where he reported that some ewes reject one of their twin lambs and lavish care on the other. A human being cannot tell the basis of the choice. Animals are somewhat like people, but we can't tell how they think and feel.

Moo

Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Actually it is usual for litters to be fathered by more than one male, since each kitten is from one mating. So a cat who has a litter of 5 kittens has had five matings, with one cat or 5.

Never knew this. You learn something new everyday! [Big Grin]

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Actually it is usual for litters to be fathered by more than one male, since each kitten is from one mating. So a cat who has a litter of 5 kittens has had five matings, with one cat or 5.

Thanks for the info. I was wondering about this. There've sometimes been news stories about women having the same situation. (That may be quite common; but I think the news was the first I heard of it.)

Re the upthread mention of cats presenting dead gifts to humans:

I've never owned a cat, but I cat-sat some hunting cats. Their gifts to me were clearly a great honor. I just figured it was a cultural difference.

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

Couple of relevant cat stories. We had a neighbour who bred Siamese. After a couple of litters from one female, she was spayed, but her daughter, in the same house, mated. Mother got broody, and went out into the fields to catch young bunnies, which she brought home to mother. They were terrified. And were returned to the fields.

Unlike one at my grandmother's farm. Once, back in the Depression, she looked across at the cat under a chair, and said "(cat's name), I don't know what we are going to do for dinner," whereupon he went out and returned with a rabbit. It must be the first time for a long while that a cat's gift of prey has been welcomed. My mother said that she always thought that Puss in Boots must have been based on observations of this type of behaviour.

Posted by Jon in the Nati (# 15849) on :

quote:
how to educate and socialize consistently but identify and entrain individuals for excellence in skills in which each social component excels.

This is the typical problem that colonialism faces each location it tackles.

You seem to be conflating 'race' with 'society' or some other approximation of that word. They are not the same thing. Societal differences are not racial differences; they are not dependent on race.

I'm rather fond of cats; Wife in the Nati and I have a couple, one of whom I've had since law school. I'd love to talk about cats, if I had any idea at all what you're talking about. Sadly, I don't.

Also, corporations are evil. Priorities, etc.

[ 28. May 2013, 13:34: Message edited by: Jon in the Nati ]

Posted by Hairy Biker (# 12086) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Emily Windsor-Cragg:

The mania around sterilizing animals just goes over the top while corporations do more damage in a minute than a loose cat can do in twenty life-times.

Please get your priorities in order. Thanks.

Em

You can do nothing about corporations doing damage. You can get your cat speyed (and confined to your house). Get your responsibilities in order.

Posted by Amorya (# 2652) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Hairy Biker:
and confined to your house

Don't open that box. The arguments will go on for days!

Posted by goperryrevs (# 13504) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
You classify the kittens into groups according to your perception, and you notice that the mother treats the members of these groups differently. However, you have no way of knowing what the mother's criteria are.

Apparently colour is low on a cat's list of criteria in general. And cats seem to be colour-blind to red anyhow (the colour of Emily's cat and of her 'favourite' kittens)

From this article

quote:
On average, it took about 1550 tries before each cat would finally learn to pick the colored item to get their treat (presumably at this point they just got tired of the experiment, so started cooperating just to make it all stop). The real leading theory as to why it took so long for cats to learn this is simply that color doesn’t really factor into the daily life of a cat, in terms of being important. Thus, their brains, while able to distinguish between many colors, aren’t really used to doing so...

Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
I recently re-read a book by James Herriot where he reported that some ewes reject one of their twin lambs and lavish care on the other. A human being cannot tell the basis of the choice. Animals are somewhat like people, but we can't tell how they think and feel.

Moo

True, but also slightly overstated. It is quite possible to tell the mood of a dog. Their communication is virtually all nonverbal (except for the barkers, of which I've no experience).

James Herriot. A good idea to read anything by him methinks.

Posted by Freddy (# 365) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Emily Windsor-Cragg:
The REDS always have her total attention, since they're the closest to her own color. However, they're much larger than the Greys, suck all her milk dry, and they're dumb as doorknobs!

Nillie's grown kittens of the Red variety are the largest cats I have ever encountered ... reaching 10-15# in weight within six months, the size of a canine spaniel.

I love your comments about the reds.

I have had many cats but the red ones really stand out. A breeder told me that the red ones typically have a very distinct personality. They have been our favorite cats.

We have Maine Coons, and the males are usually about 25#, huge and very friendly cats.

Posted by Ricardus (# 8757) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Re the upthread mention of cats presenting dead gifts to humans:

I've never owned a cat, but I cat-sat some hunting cats. Their gifts to me were clearly a great honor. I just figured it was a cultural difference.

Someone Told Me that if you reject the gift, then the cat will think it wasn't good enough, and go out and try to bring back a better one ...

[ 28. May 2013, 15:29: Message edited by: Ricardus ]

Posted by Crazy Cat Lady (# 17616) on :

My cats like fuss, fun and food (there was one more but they were all neutered)

Anything beyond this seems to me to be anthropomorphism

Posted by Taliesin (# 14017) on :

I read half the OP and thought, whoever wrote this is a fruit cake. Then I looked at the author.

Right.

I had a cat called Calico, because she was. She had four kittens, one black, two grey tabbies, and one mini calico. We kept one kitten, one of the greys, cos it was most friendly.

Years ago we had two black cats, sisters, who had a litter of 4 kittens each a week apart.

cat 1 lavished care on her kittens, cat 2 behaved oddly, leaving them in the dog's basket, swopping them for her sisters (which upset cat 1 and caused her to keep hiding them in bedrooms) and generally buggering off out on the tiles. We anthropomorphised like mad, imagining that the dog enjoyed babysitting, and cat 2 wasn't enjoying motherhood. etc.

It never crossed our minds to wonder what impact the colour of the cats fur was having.

Posted by Freddy (# 365) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Taliesin:
It never crossed our minds to wonder what impact the colour of the cats fur was having.

But now you know! [Biased]

Posted by Emily Windsor-Cragg (# 17687) on :

Nehemiah White from Animal Control is due to come get Vanilla for her spaying, which he arranged.

So, she's done. Now she'll just live the life of Riley.

But one of the kittens is epileptic. She has died twice, in fits and comas. Don't know why or how it happened.

There were five originally, in this litter: two reds, two greys and one calico in a clown suit.

The first one to falter was calico that starved about a week ago; and it took three days of force-feeding to get her back on her feet. Now, she's fat and frisky.

The second one to falter due to Mama's lack of interest was Minit, the tiny one, so Gramma took her in and started bottle-feeding her too, so Nillie was down to three.

It took a couple more days to realize that the black one was in trouble. It's now five days, two epileptic fits, one coma, and a lot of force-feeding later, she's now back on her feet.

Twice, I held a dead kitten in my outstretched hand and prayed to God, please help this one.

And He did, each time.

So this morning I re-united all the kittens with their mother. How would it work? Would the Reds beat up on the Greys, as usual? Could Blackie withstand the stress?

Talk about DRAMA! Who knew?

They'll all make good pets when Nehemiah comes for them next week, when six weeks of age passes. Socialized kittens make money for the county animal control department, who get suck with ferals and angry strays.

And Blackie? sweetest little angora puff-ball you ever saw; but she has to sleep on my chest so she's not feeling abandoned again. That's ok.

Em

Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Taliesin:
I read half the OP and thought, whoever wrote this is a fruit cake. Then I looked at the author.

Which crosses the Commandment 3 guideline. It's derogatory comment about a person, not criticism of content. Plenty of scope for the latter, but not the former, not in Purgatory. There's a Hell thread open. Take it there if you want.

Barnabas62
Purgatory Host

Posted by QLib (# 43) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:

quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Actually it is usual for litters to be fathered by more than one male, since each kitten is from one mating. So a cat who has a litter of 5 kittens has had five matings, with one cat or 5.
Never knew this. You learn something new everyday!

Yes, I thought Calico Cats only existed in nursery rhymes. I guessed they were what we in Britland call tortoiseshell, and GoogleImages seems to confirm this. I've told that Tortoiseshells are nearly always female and Gingers (Reds) are nearly always male - is there any truth in that?

I have to say that fatuous analogies based on what exists in nature (actually pets) through to racism in humans are, in my experience, responsible for getting a lot of otherwise quite harmless folk mixed up in extremely ugly political ideologies. Conversely, and equally fatuously, I might dispute the comments about multi-national corps on the grounds that you rarely see someone in a suit wandering about with a dead fledgling blue tit in his/her mouth.

Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on :

Our black cat, Black Agnes, had two black kittens; she disciplined them by smacking their noses with her paw. When I had our children, Agnes disciplined them by smacking their noses with her paw. She didn't seem to distinguish between cat infants and human infants.

This seems to be a direct opposite to Emily's experience ; whereas she has had to step in and take over care of the kittens, Agnes felt she had to step in occasionally and take over care of the humans.

My son claims to have been partially reared by the cat.

(Black Agnes was a regal cat, who stood no nonsense; I named her after this woman.)

Posted by Ricardus (# 8757) on :

quote:
Originally posted by QLib:
I've told that Tortoiseshells are nearly always female and Gingers (Reds) are nearly always male - is there any truth in that?

AIUI tortoiseshell colouring arises from a combination of two genes that sit on the same part of the X chromosome, and therefore is only possible if you have two X chromosomes.

Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :

I don't think the idiosyncratic maternal behaviour of one cat even tells us anything about the generality of cats, let alone human society.

[ 29. May 2013, 06:57: Message edited by: Firenze ]

Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :

IME, cats are a law unto themselves. Dogs do submission. Don't think cats do. They seem to be more into exploitation.

Dogs have owners. Cats seem to have a greater capacity for giving their "owners" the runaround. Not sure if we actually "own" our cats; the boot seems to be more on the other foot!

[ 29. May 2013, 07:25: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]

Posted by Bob Two-Owls (# 9680) on :

quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
My son claims to have been partially reared by the cat.

My Grandmother said the same of me. Apparently the cat took an interest in keeping me where she could see me and stopping me from climbing up things or eating things I shouldn't (soil, catfood, spiders etc.) To all intents and purposes I was treated as a large, very demanding and obstinately non-litter-trained kitten. Cats are odd things and have rather fluid ideas of property and kinship.

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

I wonder if different colors have different smells to cats? Maybe there's something about red fur that smells bad?

Or maybe she remembers their father and didn't like him???

Just thinking out loud!

Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :

quote:
Originally posted by QLib:

quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:

quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Actually it is usual for litters to be fathered by more than one male, since each kitten is from one mating. So a cat who has a litter of 5 kittens has had five matings, with one cat or 5.
Never knew this. You learn something new everyday!
Yes, I thought Calico Cats only existed in nursery rhymes. I guessed they were what we in Britland call tortoiseshell, and GoogleImages seems to confirm this. I've told that Tortoiseshells are nearly always female and Gingers (Reds) are nearly always male - is there any truth in that?

I have to say that fatuous analogies based on what exists in nature (actually pets) through to racism in humans are, in my experience, responsible for getting a lot of otherwise quite harmless folk mixed up in extremely ugly political ideologies. Conversely, and equally fatuously, I might dispute the comments about multi-national corps on the grounds that you rarely see someone in a suit wandering about with a dead fledgling blue tit in his/her mouth.

Calicos are tortoiseshell-and-white. You also get torbies or calibies, which are torties or calicos with tabby markings.

Tortie/calico colours are passed down via the XX chromosone so are 99% female - very rarely a male tortie or calico will be born but he will be sterile since it's down to a chromosonal defect. 1 in 1000 ginger cats are female, so it is a lot less rare than male torties. Female ginger cats will always have a little white on them though, eg the tip of the tail. I believe that a mother cat's tortie gene will be expressed as a ginger coat in her male kittens.

Edited to add that you can also get diluted torties - they will have a grey base coat with cream markings rather than black with ginger. Very beautiful, in my opinion.

[ 29. May 2013, 08:48: Message edited by: Jade Constable ]

Posted by Taliesin (# 14017) on :

Sorry! Yes, it was. I was interested in that I didn't have a preconception. But yes. I didn't even mean to be rude, so I'm sorry it was.

Posted by Pine Marten (# 11068) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
IME, cats are a law unto themselves. Dogs do submission. Don't think cats do. They seem to be more into exploitation.

Dogs have owners. Cats seem to have a greater capacity for giving their "owners" the runaround. Not sure if we actually "own" our cats; the boot seems to be more on the other foot!

As the saying goes: dogs have owners, cats have staff.

Posted by Dan Druff (# 17703) on :

Cats cannot be racist, they have no Mens Rea.

Posted by Huia (# 3473) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
I wonder if different colors have different smells to cats? Maybe there's something about red fur that smells bad?

Or maybe she remembers their father and didn't like him???

Just thinking out loud!

I had the same thought regarding smell.

I have never had a ginger cat, but one lived nearby and even neighbours who didn't know each other or the owners knew Barney.

Storm, the school cat has some British Blue in his ancestry. I don't know if it characteristc of the breed, but I have seen him sitting on the path while groups of small children ran past him - he never even blinked. My cat only needs to hear children in the distance and she disappears.

Huia

Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Dan Druff:
Cats cannot be racist, they have no Mens Rea.

Welcome to the house of unrest! A good point. Cats are instinctive. We just project some of our stuff onto them.

But those instincts still look like "we're in charge, suckers! Now get on with the stroking and the feeding while we just s-t-r-e-t-c-h!"

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

quote:
Barnabas62: But those instincts still look like "we're in charge, suckers! Now get on with the stroking and the feeding while we just s-t-r-e-t-c-h!"

Along as they keep the rats away, I'm okay with that.

Posted by Higgs Bosun (# 16582) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:

But those instincts still look like "we're in charge, suckers! Now get on with the stroking and the feeding while we just s-t-r-e-t-c-h!"

Dogs have owners. Cats have staff.

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

Cats have acolytes! [Smile]

I read a quip that cats have never forgotten that they were worshiped, once. I wonder if anyone still worships cats, in general? I know that some Neo-Pagans worship Sekhmet and Bast, cat goddesses from Egypt.

And, of course, there's Aslan! [Biased]

Posted by Emily Windsor-Cragg (# 17687) on :

Absolutely true. I cannot presume to know the basis for her choices--which to nurture and when or why to exclude and reject.

There is news! Gramma [here] nursed the three grey ones back to life and health with goats' milk laded with sweetening. Oh they loved that!

So, yesterday I reunited the litter, and Mama gladly accepted them all: groomed them all, nursed them all.

But I still have to separate the two colors because the "Red" ones are so much larger than the tiny Grey ones--and they fight--it's too risky for the tiny ones, especially for "Sugar" who had a couple of epileptic seizures and I nearly lost her.

This experience is truly instructive! So yesterday I took a digital image of Mama with "Patches" the Calico, but the light was dim so it came out ALL dark red, no details showing.

I brought up the image, reduced the color and added Light (50%), and "Patches" shows up as fluorescent GREEN. Green? Bright irridescent green. I have no explanation for that either.

Every day is a learning experience for Gramma here. [Smile]

quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
You are assuming that you understand how the mother cat perceives her kittens. I think that is a very big stretch.

You classify the kittens into groups according to your perception, and you notice that the mother treats the members of these groups differently. However, you have no way of knowing what the mother's criteria are.

I recently re-read a book by James Herriot where he reported that some ewes reject one of their twin lambs and lavish care on the other. A human being cannot tell the basis of the choice. Animals are somewhat like people, but we can't tell how they think and feel.

Moo

Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Emily Windsor-Cragg:
This experience is truly instructive! So yesterday I took a digital image of Mama with "Patches" the Calico, but the light was dim so it came out ALL dark red, no details showing.

You just need to adjust the settings on your camera. Change the ISO to about 800, set the white balance to "indoor" (I assume that's where you were) or "electric light" and you should find the picture comes out better. If that sounds too complicated have a look at the pre-sets available to you on your camera. There will probably be one for "night" photography which you can use for dimly lit settings.

quote:
I brought up the image, reduced the color and added Light (50%), and "Patches" shows up as fluorescent GREEN. Green? Bright irridescent green. I have no explanation for that either.

It doesn't mean that the cat is in any way green-but-you-can't-normally-see-it, it means that the software is struggling to cope and trying to add and enhance colour where there is little or none to start with. That kind of colour graininess is a known problem. Your cat is fine.

Posted by ExclamationMark (# 14715) on :

Cats are partly colour blind anyway. I've had all sorts of combinations of cats over the years and have never noticed any particular patterns of likes or dislikes.

Posted by Crazy Cat Lady (# 17616) on :

I have a tortie tabby - she's 18 and still my nurse cat. If I feel ill she comes to my bed, snuggles right up and fixes my hair - no idea why, maybe illness makes me a needy kitten or something

Posted by ExclamationMark (# 14715) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Crazy Cat Lady:
I have a tortie tabby - she's 18 and still my nurse cat. If I feel ill she comes to my bed, snuggles right up and fixes my hair - no idea why, maybe illness makes me a needy kitten or something

We've got that one too - same age n all. Sleeps at night on Mrs Mark's pillow and will follow either of us when we walk down the garden. Not sure if she thinks she's a small human or we're big kittens. She's particularly fond of our 2 grandchildren (6 & 3) whose mum was her first human carer.

Posted by Emily Windsor-Cragg (# 17687) on :

Quine, Agnes would fit right in here too. Delightful story.

quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:

quote:
Originally posted by QLib:
I've told that Tortoiseshells are nearly always female and Gingers (Reds) are nearly always male - is there any truth in that?
AIUI tortoiseshell colouring arises from a combination of two genes that sit on the same part of the X chromosome, and therefore is only possible if you have two X chromosomes.

Yes! ALL the Reds have only been males. The ONE tortoise-shell and TWO Calicos are female.

Greys, one of each, But the mother is pure white, and the five tomcats that got to her were a Red, one White/Grey, two black.

I've named the two Greys and the Calico: Sugar (it literally saved her life); Patches (she's a tri-color Calico) and Tiny [1/3 the size of the Reds].

Sugar's so rotund at this point, when she scratches her tail she falls over like a rolling ball. :giggle: She and Tiny go at it harmlessly and gently.

Em

Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :

I know the practically immutable all-female rule on torties and calicos. And I know that more orange tabby cats are male.

But.

The cat I grew up with was an orange queen (in every sense of the word [Biased]

). Evidently, a male with one orange tabby gene on its X chromosome will be an orange tabby. For a female to be an orange tabby, she has to have orange tabby on both X chromosomes, thus is less likely to be orange.

Posted by Emily Windsor-Cragg (# 17687) on :

We've got two female Calicos: Cutie (who sidles up to her buff brothers) and Patches, six weeks old on Friday.

I'm ready to have no more cats here, believe me.

Nehemiah promised! He makes money when tame and socialized kittens are purchased at the County shelter.

I sure hope it'll all work out as he says.

Em :/

Posted by Clemency (# 16173) on :

Have got to come in on this one, since calico (ie dark tortoiseshell cats, which is what I thin you mean) have been and area significant part of my life on earth. One of our first pair of kittens, 35 years ago, was one - ever since then we have sought them out. Not all of them, but a significant percentage, are TALKING CATS, by which I mean they relate to humans in a very different way to normal cats; it may be that they think they are human themselves. We have had three. The first tragically died young, the second we has for 18 years, then we had a decade or so with lovely but non-talking cats, now we have another wonderful TC, who is so like the previous one that I seriously wonder about REINCATNATION? Might this happen? or is it just the cat reflecting the person that it is attached to?. I would be a sucker for any heresy that explained that significant portions of Scripture in fact referred to tortoiseshell cats...

Posted by Huia (# 3473) on :

I had a tortie like that, which started me talking to cats more than I had before. I found that the more I talked to them, the more they 'answered' but none were as vocal or made sounds as close to the intonation of my voice as Patch. One vet said torties were noted for it.

Huia

Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :

This thread has become very Heavenly! I'll check that out with other Hosts; prepare for a move Upwards.

B62 Purg Host

Posted by Bob Two-Owls (# 9680) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
This thread has become very Heavenly

Yeah, fwuffy ickle kitties will do that...

Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :

Well, we've had a little chat and, on balance, it can stay with us a little longer. Some Shipmates may have more to say on the serious issues (e.g. anthropomorphism, relationship between instinctive behaviour and racism etc).

If not, it then would seem kinder just to regard the thread as "all worked out" in Purgatory terms, now tangenting into less serious areas, and simply close it.

So enjoy it for the time being - we'll give it a bit of room but it may not be live for much longer.

Barnabas62
Purgatory Host

Posted by QLib (# 43) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Clemency:
Have got to come in on this one, since calico (ie dark tortoiseshell cats, which is what I thin you mean) have been and area significant part of my life on earth. One of our first pair of kittens, 35 years ago, was one - ever since then we have sought them out. Not all of them, but a significant percentage, are TALKING CATS, by which I mean they relate to humans in a very different way to normal cats;

quote:
Originally posted by Huia:
I had a tortie like that, which started me talking to cats more than I had before. I found that the more I talked to them, the more they 'answered' but none were as vocal or made sounds as close to the intonation of my voice as Patch. One vet said torties were noted for it.

Well, I hope this is sufficiently serious: I cat-sat a dark tortie for nearly two years, and during that time I became convinced that she understood things I said to her that were not just 'food soon' or 'not time for breakfast yet'. In particular, her owner warned me that she (the cat) became very agitated before said owner went away overnight, even if only an overnight trip, with no significant packing taking place. However, I found that if I sat down with the cat and explained when I was going, who would feed her while I was away, and when I was coming back, she calmed down immediately, and stayed calm. There's more, but it's a long tale and scarcely credible, so I won't bother.

Posted by Matt Black (# 2210) on :

What about the cats who look like Hitler? Surely that's proof that they're a bunch of racists?

Posted by Emily Windsor-Cragg (# 17687) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Clemency:
Have got to come in on this one, since calico (ie dark tortoiseshell cats, which is what I thin you mean) have been and area significant part of my life on earth.

What I'm seeing is racial profiling in action.

The Mom treats the Reds very different from the Greys. The Reds are huge-by-comparison; they develop earlier, fight more aggressively. I have to keep them away from the Greys, who are so tiny by comparison.

It has nothing to do with diet. One of the Reds eats like the Greys--fish--the other is a milk-hog. ... ALL the Reds are boys, all are h-u-g-e by comparison to the Greys.

I have one tortoise-shell, a sterile female, and she's very timid.

I have two Calicos, and they are very perceptive and subtle.

But the Mom is an all-White feral stray, so it's hard to tell, her genetics.

Til Nehemiah gets here and takes them for sale, this is surely an interesting study in genetics.

[Big Grin]

Emily

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

Qlib--

You might find the work of scientist Rupert Sheldrake interesting. This is the section of his site that deals with the abilities of animals.

Posted by Twilight (# 2832) on :

The Hitler cats made my day! [Killing me]

While we're substituting anecdotes for science... the friendliest funniest cat I've ever known was my neighbors orange cat who used to visit every day. This was when I lived in England, a wonderful place where flies are so scarce you can leave your windows and doors open and the neighbor's animals stroll through your house on regular visits. Cat knowledgeable friends told me that oranges are noted for being clownish and forward compared to the grays I've owned -- the proverbial scaredy cats.

So Emily, maybe it's not that mommy cat prefers her reds but that they are just pushier and more likely to bustle in for food while the greys go pout in the corner.

Posted by Crazy Cat Lady (# 17616) on :

I love the Kitler pictures - though I swear the 11th one on that page looks more like Salvador Dali! I also like the Lol Cat saying, 'I can haz Poland.'

I dunno what my tortie tabby thinks, yeh she does have a wider vocabulary with a lot of different mews and she also does the silent meow, which according to cat behaviourists is a term of endearment.

But I do think cats are cats, and not mini humans.

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Crazy Cat Lady:

But I do think cats are cats, and not mini humans.

Much as I hate the name change amnesty, you need to be re designated Reasonable Cat Lady.
The anthropomorphism that goes on amongst animal lovers. [Roll Eyes]

Posted by Crazy Cat Lady (# 17616) on :

Must be having one of my more lucid days...

Posted by argona (# 14037) on :

Cats evolved as solitary creatures. Mating and kitten-care were their only social skills. Once kittens could look after themselves, they were on their own. Around 20,000 years ago, 'domestic' cats moved out of the North African desert into Egyptian settlements and a symbiosis evolved. They kept the rodents down in the granaries, humans gave them house-room and food when the granaries were low and rodents thin on the ground.

Humans, like dogs, with which we have far more common ground, are social creatures of far longer standing. With dogs, and I've owned both dogs and cats, there can be some kind of rudimentary relationship. With cats, it's all need and satisfaction - in a 'relationship' where the cat is infantilised by its dependence on us, retaining kitten-mother behaviour all its life.

All of which says that to draw any conclusions about human nature from cat behaviour is quite ridiculous. And as has been pointed out, cats, unlike us, are colour-blind.

[ 31. May 2013, 20:01: Message edited by: argona ]

Posted by Yonatan (# 11091) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
So enjoy it for the time being - we'll give it a bit of room but it may not be live for much longer.

Barnabas62
Purgatory Host

Are you saying it's used up nearly all of its 9 lives?

Posted by Crazy Cat Lady (# 17616) on :

I was having one of those days of marvelling at creation - the weed that grows in barren concrete, a dog's ability to hear the tin opener from the back yard and a big house spider. They are marvellous, eight legs and eyes, all co-ordinated when I am sure I would get in a knot with all those spindly limbs. I was just wondering about the amazing strength of spider web when

the cat ate it

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

Anthropomorphism of dogs can lead to behaviour problems. We send conflicting signals which confuse them. It is not doing our pets any favours. With cats, keeping them infantilised seems to be the key. Not certain what this does to them.

On a lighter note:
Diary of a Sad Cat.

[ 01. June 2013, 01:18: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]

Posted by QLib (# 43) on :

quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Anthropomorphism of dogs can lead to behaviour problems. We send conflicting signals which confuse them. It is not doing our pets any favours.

Well, yes, I have seem some terrible cases of harmful and idiotic treatment of dogs, but as a general rule IMHO the success of human-dog interaction is pretty amazing. They are very good at reading our emotions, and we're not bad at reading theirs, though perhaps our reading gets more clogged even by anthropomorphism, even in a relatively mild form. Some animal psychologists/ behaviourists say that dogs regard themselves and their humans as all part of the same pack (how long is it sonce dogs lived in packs?) and the main thing is to establish who is pack leader, but I think the more intelligent dogs know people are different. They surely don't fully understand how different, but then I don't know that any humans understand exactly either, if only because there clearly are individual personality differences on both sides of the divide.

It seems pretty clear to me that a lot of more intelligent dogs, and cats, not only understand that children are different, but are also capable (as suggested upthread) of appreciating that children = cubs/puppies/kittens. How do they do that? Is it something to do with neoteny?

Posted by Moo (# 107) on :

quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
On a lighter note:
Diary of a Sad Cat.

Thanks.

Moo

Posted by Pine Marten (# 11068) on :

Yes, many thanks indeed!

[Killing me]

Posted by QLib (# 43) on :

Never seen the sad cat's diary done as a video before - but there is a text version (which I haven't been able to find) with a do equivalent, that goes (something) like this:

First run in the garden - my favourite thing!
Family breakfast - my fwvourite thing!
Fighting with the hoover - my favourite thing!
Morning walkies - my favourite thing!
Afternoon nap - my favourite thing!

(etc)

Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :

Yes. All nine lives for this thread clearly used up in Purgatory.

Thread closed, with thanks to all contributors and the cats they serve.

Barnabas62
Purgatory Host

UBB.classic^TM 6.5.0